One China Policy?

crianp

With the declaration of Kosovo as an independant state with the support of the USA and some of the EU. Do some of the people on boards see this as setting a precedent for the future. In particular I refer to the one China policy where states like Taiwan and Tibet have been seeking independance for years, I have been arguing pro-taiwanese independance with some of my Chinese friends with no sucess. What are everyone's views on Kosovo, One China policy and independance?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

do you support democracy for tibet, or the reinstation of the lamas?

why would they name their holy men after such a furry animal.

anyway, china won't stand for it. they don't really give a **** about world opinion except in terms of dollar signs, or euro signs in the future .

berliner

Kosovo is as much part of Serbia as Munster or Leinster is part of Ireland.Shocking unjust to Serbia.

the_syco

berliner wrote: »

Kosovo is as much part of Serbia as Munster or Leinster is part of Ireland.Shocking unjust to Serbia.

Cept we don't kill the people of Munster for sh|ts and giggles.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

be an idea though

Terry

crianp wrote: »

With the declaration of Kosovo as an independant state with the support of the USA and some of the EU. Do some of the people on boards see this as setting a precedent for the future. In particular I refer to the one China policy where states like Taiwan and Tibet have been seeking independance for years, I have been arguing pro-taiwanese independance with some of my Chinese friends with no sucess. What are everyone's views on Kosovo, One China policy and independance?

I can clean up this thead and move it to a more suitable forum if you want.

Cunny-Funt

crianp wrote: »

I have been arguing pro-taiwanese independance with some of my Chinese friends with no sucess. What are everyone's views on Kosovo, One China policy and independance?

Thats interesting, I've always wanted to ask Chinese people I've met in collage and stuff about Taiwan and Tibet and other things but I never got to know them well enough to risk going there if you get me.

I always presumed they'd say its their government and they personally don't care.

I'd really love to hear how they can justify taking over another country and other unsavoury deeds.

mike65

Keep it out of Politics - someone will lock it.

While it may be true that you can have 'too many' states, is it right to deny the majority in a specific well defined region with thier own systems freedom of self determination?

I think not, but someone will probably come up with good example proving otherwise before sun-up.

Mike.

wes

If the Taiwanese, Uighurs, Tibetans all want freedom from the quite frankly brutal and repressive Chinese government, well then more power to them. In there shoes, I sure as hell wouldn't want to live under the PRC.

Terry

I was actually thinking of Humanities.

mike65

It should be pointed out that Red China left Taiwan, which is properly called the Republic of China

Mike.

Sam Vimes

berliner wrote: »

Kosovo is as much part of Serbia as Munster or Leinster is part of Ireland.Shocking unjust to Serbia.

except in kosovo 90% of the population don't want to be part of serbia and in a democratic society they shouldn't be forced to be

slipss

crianp wrote: »

I have been arguing pro-taiwanese independance with some of my Chinese friends with no sucess.

Perhaps they simply don't know much about the situation apart from the Chinese states version of events. I remember seeing a documentary about the fella that was in that photo standing infront of the tank during the student protests and they interview several chinese people that wouldn't have been alive at the time. Most of them didn't reckognise the photo at all (one of the most famous ever taken) and when asked questions about the protest itself the majority of them relayed the standard party line the chinese gouvernment gave out in relation to the number of deaths (a fraction of generally estimated international figure) and why they occured. Its not like they can go to a libary or log online and read different sides of the story in relation to the Tibet issue.

except in kosovo 90% of the population don't want to be part of serbia and in a democratic society they shouldn't be forced to be

anyone else notice a similarity with somewhere not a million males away????

EamonnKeane

mike65 wrote: »

It should be pointed out that Red China left Taiwan, which is properly called the Republic of China

Mike.

"Red" China never had Taiwan. They gradually conquered Kuomintang territory until they had the whole mainland. The US protected Taiwan because it had business interests there.

crianp

Thanks for the feedback, I had actually written a short essay on the whole subject in my blog referencing the growing nationalism in Taiwan with the latest statistic (2006) showing that Taiwanese people feel more Taiwanese than Chinese.

That being said I gave them a chance to look at all the information and even posed the principle question “If a given people in a specified area who are the majority seek independence from their sovereign state than they should be allowed to gain said freedom without hindrance from governments or people’s around the world”?

They still adamantly refuse to even acknowledge any point I make which I think comes down to National Pride but I had to ask anyway…

Thirdfox

Hmm - this is AH, don't think it is a great place to debate this issue...

If I were to give my opinion on this it would take a few hours to debate all the intricacies of international law, history and politics (as well as the philosophical questions that are to be raised). And I would prefer to do it face to face instead of under the anonymity of the internet where civility is often discarded in favour of responses that provoke reactions.

Some quick facts that Western people may not know about (remember I'm just giving the other side of the story) - there is a wealth of information to be found on the Taiwan/ROC issue on the internet.

First off - Taiwan and China are still technically involved in a civil war that hasn't ended since the Republic of China (Guo Ming Dang party) fled to the island of Taiwan after its defeat on mainland China. The Republic of China (Taiwan) had been asserting control over the whole of China for quite some time (recently they have dropped the claim), likewise the People's Republic of China (China as most people know it) also assert control over the whole of China (they most definitely have not dropped that claim). The UN recognised the PRC as the legitimate government of China and removed the ROC from its position in the UN many years ago. Indeed the native people who lived on the island of Taiwan considered themselves Chinese before the Guo Ming Dang fled there - nowadays there is still a large percentage of people who consider themselves Chinese.

In terms of history, after WWII Japan returned the island of "Formosa" to the "government of the Republic of China" (or words to that effect). China resumed the civil war it had been fighting and Mao's Communist forces beat back Jiang Jie Shi's Nationalist forces until it retreated to the island of Taiwan and set up a new government (Republic of China) there and repeated the claim that it was the legitimate party over all of China. As a semi-neutral party in this I cannot say whether life under the Nationalist party would have been any better than the Communist party (but that's irrelevant to whether Taiwan is part of China or not).

Speaking to the university students of China (I was there for one year to study law) I find that this is one issue that they are adamant on. A well-educated friend of mine stated that the Chinese government should not tolerate interference in its internal matters and that if it meant nuclear war then so be it. I believe the Taiwan issue not only encompasses sovereignty but also the humiliation that China has faced over the last hundred years at the hands of Western forces (Hong Kong was given away after the Chinese tried to stop the British from selling narcotics in China, the "Unfair Treaties" were signed with 5 Western powers after they destroyed the summer palace in Beijing etc.) Nationalism plays a part definitely but this nationalism doesn't just come from government propaganda (no-one reads the state newspaper in China!) but from what people have learnt in factual history.

So there you go, a "quick" overview of the situation (as it appears from the eyes of a Chinese person), you can judge for yourself.

Thirdfox

crianp wrote: »

They still adamantly refuse to even acknowledge any point I make which I think comes down to National Pride but I had to ask anyway…

I think it depends on the way you ask it. Taiwan is a sensitive issue and Chinese people will automatically believe that you are influenced by Western propaganda (just like many people here believe all the Chinese just believe what the government tells them) and react defensively.

And there is a bias in Western media no doubt (the BBC is among the least biased) but almost no-one who asks me about Taiwan has heard of the civil war or the Republic of China. They believe that China just wants to invade this little island for no reason whatsoever. Whereas from the Chinese viewpoint the government wants to reclaim the island from the opposing forces and end the civil war.

Politics play a major role in all this of course, the US supports the ROCin terms of weapons but diplomatically with the PRC. This has the "benefit"(?) of keeping China destabilised in the region and unable to gain superpower status. (The Chinese tactic of becoming an asymmetrical superpower via the economic route has American congress worried though).

Disclaimer: I am someone who emigrated from China at the age of 5 (now Irish) and studied International Law and East Asian politics during my year in Beijing (taught by a Korean professor by the way).

edit: and before the trolls start coming in with nonsensical points I would like to say that while in China I argue exactly the opposite points (the Western points) to my Chinese friends and colleagues, it is my belief that all sides of the story should be heard. We in the Western world only hear of our selected points and the same happens in China (unless someone goes to the trouble of researching the issue), this will only lead to suffering of the people and no one (Western, Chinese etc.) actually wants that.

baztard

crianp wrote: »

With the declaration of Kosovo as an independant state with the support of the USA and some of the EU. Do some of the people on boards see this as setting a precedent for the future. In particular I refer to the one China policy where states like Taiwan and Tibet have been seeking independance for years, I have been arguing pro-taiwanese independance with some of my Chinese friends with no sucess. What are everyone's views on Kosovo, One China policy and independance?

Pro Kosovo
Pro Taiwan
Pro Tibet

China is a huge bomb waiting to explode. 1.5 billion people will begin to learn about democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc, the more and more they get exposed to the free world. In 50 years time there won't be one PRC, there'll be fragments of it all over the place.

mike65

EamonnKeane wrote: »

"Red" China never had Taiwan. They gradually conquered Kuomintang territory until they had the whole mainland. The US protected Taiwan because it had business interests there.

Sorry, I was speaking metaphorically. Bit confusing.

Mike.

meditraitor

Sam Vimes wrote: »

except in kosovo 90% of the population don't want to be part of serbia and in a democratic society they shouldn't be forced to be

But are these 90% of the population not just albanian immigrants?

mike65

Kick them out! At what point does a grouping cease to be immigrant?

Mike.

meditraitor

mike65 wrote: »

Kick them out! At what point does a grouping cease to be immigrant?

Mike.

Its a tricky one all right, and something that needs closer scuteny especially in the current world climate of mass immigration.

Un Resolution 1244 cleary states that Kosovo is a part of Serbia so this also muddys the water.

Black Swan

crianp wrote: »

What are everyone's views on... One China policy and independance?

Well, I have student friends from both the PRC and Taiwan. Without exception, the PRC students wanted the island back and became very argumentive when it was suggested that Taiwan become independent. The students from Taiwan enjoy their relative independence and do not wish to be ruled by Bejing, although the increasing trade/trend with the mainland was thought as a good thing. As you might guess, the PRC and Taiwan students typically don't party much together.

dsmythy

meditraitor wrote: »

Its a tricky one all right, and something that needs closer scuteny especially in the current world climate of mass immigration.

Un Resolution 1244 cleary states that Kosovo is a part of Serbia so this also muddys the water.

One thing it shows. The Kosovars never became the "new Serbs". Mind you mass murder by the Serbs doesn't help that case.

Do Sinn Fein and the likes support Kosovo independence considering their views of Northern Ireland?

Hypothetically if 100,000 people came to Ireland and made, say, Leitrim their home and their children wanted independence would it be granted? Would people be happy enough with that?

dsmythy

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Thats interesting, I've always wanted to ask Chinese people I've met in collage and stuff about Taiwan and Tibet and other things but I never got to know them well enough to risk going there if you get me.

I always presumed they'd say its their government and they personally don't care.

I'd really love to hear how they can justify taking over another country and other unsavoury deeds.

I made two pretty good Chinese friends. They were nice lads, very pleasant. But mention Taiwan to them and they became almost militant in their anti-independence views.

meditraitor

dsmythy wrote: »

Hypothetically if 100,000 people came to Ireland and made, say, Leitrim their home and their children wanted independence would it be granted? Would people be happy enough with that?

Would this be a bad thing;)

marco murphy

meditraitor wrote: »

Would this be a bad thing;)

Cork will be the first breakaway nation.

gerTheGreat

crianp wrote: »

I have been arguing pro-taiwanese independance with some of my Chinese friends with no sucess. What are everyone's views on Kosovo, One China policy and independance?

The Chinese education system, (history & geography) has been modified to teach the children that Tibet, etc are and always have been part of China, as submissive provences. Often, many of the documents that they use for their arguments have been misquoted, misinterperuted, etc to make 'facts' fit. Futhermore, many have had long standing trade alliances, others have had religious ties, (Tibet had a priest - patron relationship for centuries.)

Long story short, this information is distorted and the truth is not common knowledge. It's not the people's fault. It's their government.

berliner

Sam Vimes wrote: »

except in kosovo 90% of the population don't want to be part of serbia and in a democratic society they shouldn't be forced to be

they are planters in kosovo.please read david mcwilliams excellent colum on the irish independent website.i only learned this stuff about Serbia recently,

berliner

berliner wrote: »

they are planters in kosovo.please read david mcwilliams excellent colum on the irish independent website.i only learned this stuff about Serbia recently,

incidentally,take Bradford in england,probably 90% Bangladeshi...think Bradford should be an Independent country?

Miss Fluff

slipss wrote: »

Perhaps they simply don't know much about the situation apart from the Chinese states version of events. I remember seeing a documentary about the fella that was in that photo standing infront of the tank during the student protests and they interview several chinese people that wouldn't have been alive at the time. Most of them didn't reckognise the photo at all (one of the most famous ever taken) and when asked questions about the protest itself the majority of them relayed the standard party line the chinese gouvernment gave out in relation to the number of deaths (a fraction of generally estimated international figure) and why they occured. Its not like they can go to a libary or log online and read different sides of the story in relation to the Tibet issue.

Exactly. While living in China I visited Tibet and when I asked colleagues about how they felt about the whole Tibet situation, they hadn't a clue what I was talking about. Any historical/political references online to the likes of Tibet or Tianenmen or blocked. While there You Tube was blocked for around six weeks because it showed that Chinese searches for Tianenmen had ranked high. When it comes to Taiwan they are much more vocal and see it very much as part of China.

Thirdfox

See my post above on why they believe it is part of China (a view that I subscribe to too). Youtube isn't blocked in China (at least not since the last 2 years when I was living there), BBC is blocked (surprising since Fox News is freely available to be read) - in China I go to the NY Times for my news. (Irish Times is viewable too, just a tad slow).

conor2007

irish six counties - not independence as such - re integrated more like

dsmythy

conor2007 wrote: »

irish six counties - not independence as such - re integrated more like

Against the wishes of the majority? I'll take it you were against Kosovar independence?

Mweelrea

berliner wrote: »

Kosovo is as much part of Serbia as Munster or Leinster is part of Ireland.Shocking unjust to Serbia.

or connacht or ulster,

Its terrible i think, Imagine muslims became the majority in leinster and then they decided to break leinster away from Ireland and set up their own independant muslim state.

The serbians must be furious

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

imagine if a groupf of muslims moved into leinster and became the majority, then the native Irish started butchering them. Then you might get a few more similarities.

AckwelFoley

Taiwan is too big an economy for china to let go.


Tibet on the otherhand im unable to comment on as i dont know of the history behind it.

AckwelFoley

"The majority " is a misleading term with regards to Kosovo.

Its like if all the residents of Mosney voted in Favour of an Independent state.

seraphimvc

baztard wrote: »

Pro Kosovo
Pro Taiwan
Pro Tibet

China is a huge bomb waiting to explode. 1.5 billion people will begin to learn about democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc, the more and more they get exposed to the free world. In 50 years time there won't be one PRC, there'll be fragments of it all over the place.

hope i can see that before i die:)honetsly tho,communism is killing that country spirit!

btw,just a statament that a taiwanese can be said more chinese like,cause' they actually know more of the history,cultures stuffs,their books are way better than China people...if ya know the way of their government controls the flow of info...

seraphimvc

gerTheGreat wrote: »

The Chinese education system, (history & geography) has been modified to teach the children that Tibet, etc are and always have been part of China, as submissive provences. Often, many of the documents that they use for their arguments have been misquoted, misinterperuted, etc to make 'facts' fit. Futhermore, many have had long standing trade alliances, others have had religious ties, (Tibet had a priest - patron relationship for centuries.)

Long story short, this information is distorted and the truth is not common knowledge. It's not the people's fault. It's their government.

and maybe people one day will know that people from china have no idea about LOTS of facts out there...information is distorted and the truth is not common knowledge,fact.and maybe worse than you can ever imagine.

dsmythy

seraphimvc wrote: »

hope i can see that before i die:)honetsly tho,communism is killing that country spirit!

btw,just a statament that a taiwanese can be said more chinese like,cause' they actually know more of the history,cultures stuffs,their books are way better than China people...if ya know the way of their government controls the flow of info...

Generally countries that fall apart do so in violence and China is a big bloody country with a lot of people. Personally i hope not to see China fall apart in my lifetime.

Cunny-Funt

Thirdfox wrote: »

If I were to give my opinion on this ......

Just like to say, excellent post there thirdfox. I learned a lot from it and I can see where the Chinese are coming from in the situation now. I'm surprised everyone seemed to pretty much ignore it. Very enlightening.

However thats only one topic.

What about Tibet?

FunkZ

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Just like to say, excellent post there thirdfox. I learned a lot from it and I can see where the Chinese are coming from in the situation now. I'm surprised everyone seemed to pretty much ignore it. Very enlightening.

However thats only one topic.

What about Tibet?

3rdFox is great alright!

Thirdfox

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Just like to say, excellent post there thirdfox. I learned a lot from it and I can see where the Chinese are coming from in the situation now. I'm surprised everyone seemed to pretty much ignore it. Very enlightening.

However thats only one topic.

What about Tibet?

I wouldn't be the most up to date with all the history and facts behind Tibet. Researching Taiwan has taken priority since it seems to be the biggest issue (by the way I believe there's also a potential issue in Xin Jiang but the western media don't seem as interested). Also inner Mongolia too (but I'd almost say this was this is the most successful SAR - semi-autonomous region set up in China, the others being Hong Kong, Macau, Tibet and Xin Jiang as far as I know.) This is potentially what the Chinese government wants to set up in Taiwan (basically everything except for foreign policy and maybe defence will remain in the control SAR region).

I can say however that historical fact was that Tibet was not "part" of China a few thousand years ago but that sovereignty in Asia is slightly different compared to European ideas. Tibet (and many others) recognised the supremacy of the "Middle Kingdom" and was classified as a tributary country, in that their King was granted legitimacy by the Chinese Emperor. They provided soldiers to defend China and got soldiers in time of need. It was also the last "state" to stop giving tributes and giving supremacy recognition (the Japanese by this time was the supreme Asian power and forced China to relinquish its hold on many of its orbital countries as old unchanging China was too weak to fight the modern Japanese army).

I'm sure there are many facts that I'm leaving out (simply because I don't know them) again for those who are interested the internet can be a great source of information. To get the Chinese side of things you may have to look that bit harder as obviously not many Chinese write in English.

I'm just asking people to keep an open mind and look at both sides of the story. Unfortunately I'm not confident enough of my own knowledge of Tibet to give a full description on which people can make their own minds up.

FunkZ wrote: »

3rdFox is great alright!

Hopefully that's not sarcasm?

If someone were to ask me whether I think that Taiwan should be allowed to break off then I personally wouldn't wish it. But I wouldn't go to nuclear war over it either. We share the same culture and language (with a slight difference since the government adopted simplified Chinese over tradition Chinese a few decades ago) and are essentially the same people. It's not even a situation similar to Kosovo, there was only internal migration of people some of whom now want to be independent. But as always a situation is neither black nor white and there are good reasons for either views.

I wouldn't want them to break off but I wouldn't go to nuclear war with the US over it either (and I'm betting neither do the Americans).

SimpleSam06

Thirdfox wrote: »

If someone were to ask me whether I think that Taiwan should be allowed to break off then I personally wouldn't wish it. But I wouldn't go to nuclear war over it either. We share the same culture and language (with a slight difference since the government adopted simplified Chinese over tradition Chinese a few decades ago) and are essentially the same people.

This raises an important point and one of the main reasons I think that Taiwan should remain seperate. Many elements of the historic Chinese culture were wiped up by Mao in his "great leap forward", and replaced by jingoistic nationalism and allegiance to the party. This traditional or "real" Chinese culture remains preserved in Taiwan today. Is it worth wiping that out just to have neater lines on the map?

Thirdfox

I would argue that these cultural things have not been "wiped out" - certainly many physical things were destroyed (and are people all over China regretting this now) but Chinese people on the mainland still have buddhist temples to go to and all works of art etc. are now carefully preserved in the many museums.

The culture is still very much alive (and carefully gaining acceptance in society again). Of course this must be carefully controlled to make sure it isn't used for nationalistic purposes (something I have heated discussions with my Chinese friends over). I also genuinely want to know what elements of "true" culture remain in Taiwan that isn't present in China anymore? (Not trying to attack your post, I don't know much about this area and would like to be informed).

On a sidenote - my thanks to the people who told me that my post was actually useful. I was starting to think that I wasted my time trying to give a balanced view and that this thread was just for China-bashing.

SimpleSam06

Thirdfox wrote: »

I also genuinely want to know what elements of "true" culture remain in Taiwan that isn't present in China anymore? (Not trying to attack your post, I don't know much about this area and would like to be informed).

For want of a better source, Wikipedia supplies...

Mao Zedong Thought had become the central operative guide to all things in China. The authority of the Red Guards surpassed that of the army, local police authorities, and the law in general.

China's traditional arts and ideas were ignored, with praise for Mao being practiced in their place. People were encouraged to criticize cultural institutions and to question their parents and teachers, which had been strictly forbidden in Confucian culture. This was emphasized even more during the Anti-Lin Biao; Anti-Confucius Campaign. Slogans such as "Parents may love me, but not as much as Chairman Mao" were common.

The status of traditional Chinese culture within China is also severely weakened as a result of the Cultural Revolution. Many traditional customs, such as fortune telling; paper art; feng shui consultations; wearing traditional Chinese dresses for weddings; use of traditional Chinese calendar; scholarship in classical Chinese literature; and the practice of referring to the Chinese New Year as "New Year" rather than "Spring Festival"; had been virtually wiped out in China.

Yet some aspects recovered fully, and some still survived in some forms in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and other overseas Chinese communities, notwithstanding the impacts of Western culture on those communities. The traditional Confucian concepts of harmonious social interactions has been displaced by the early 20th century Western modernist social Darwinist belief of "survival of the fittest" in mainland China today.

The popularization of scientism as the default worldview for mainland Chinese today may be traced back to the Cultural Revolution. A number of Chinese cultural scholars and commentators, such as the late Chien Mu, To Kit, and Martin Oei believe that China ceased to be culturally Chinese during the Cultural Revolution, that today's China is a place "Chinese by geography and race, but foreign by culture", leaving the Chinese diasporas upholding the more traditional expressions of Chinese culture.

I wouldn't welcome the loss of those cultural elements to the monolithic bloc that China represents today.

Pompey Magnus

Tranny wrote: »

imagine if a groupf of muslims moved into leinster and became the majority, then the native Irish started butchering them. Then you might get a few more similarities.

The Albanians are not quite the poor innocent victims in this story. When the Ottoman Empire was persecuting the native Serbs and driving them from their homes the Albanians came in and stole the land. Also whilst Serbia may have acted unjustifiably during the 1990s the Albanians were no angels either. They too were involved with ethnic cleansing and forced a quarter of a million Serbs in Kosovo to leave the region.

meditraitor

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

The Albanians are not quite the poor innocent victims in this story. When the Ottoman Empire was persecuting the native Serbs and driving them from their homes the Albanians came in and stole the land. Also whilst Serbia may have acted unjustifiably during the 1990s the Albanians were no angels either. They too were involved with ethnic cleansing and forced a quarter of a million Serbs in Kosovo to leave the region.

Be carefull with the truth, some people might find it unpalatable... If this was in the politics forum you would be demonised for such a statement.

Miss Fluff

Thirdfox wrote: »

Youtube isn't blocked in China (at least not since the last 2 years when I was living there),

YouTube was blocked in the week leading up to the Party Conference in Beijing in October and for five weeks after.