[Article] Work begins on underground DART line (RTÉ)

Ste.phen

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0226/dart.html?rss

Buh?
Why the sudden publicity on this?

...
Irish Rail is already building underground facilities at Pearse St, although the Interconnector's first passengers are not expected for seven years.
...
Irish Rail is applying for a railway order next year, the equivalent of planning permission, and hopes to start tunnel boring by 2011.
...

Brian CivilEng

There was a presentation to the Roads and Transportation society of Engineers Ireland about the engineering of the Interconnector this evening. This story seems to be a summary of all the on-technical aspects of it. Obviously some journo was at the presentation, and wrote it up as a news story.

Incidentally, the "work" on the underground Pearse station is actually a subway under the existing lines in Pearse. It goes from the vacant lot between Pearse Station and Pearse Street, under the two lines to the proposed location of the Pearse underground station. Trinity is to develop that lot in the near future, and as part of that development will be a new entrance to Pearse Station from Pearse St. The subway under the tracks was constructed so that when the future underground station opens, you will be able access the underground station without having to go upstairs to cross the tracks. The subway was built now because when the DART line was closed for a weekend due to works at Lansdowne road stadium, Irish rail used the opportunity so they wont have to closethe line themselves on a future date.

Random

This is related to the planned/mentioned Metro link which runs underground in the City Centre ??

mackerski

random wrote: »

This is related to the planned/mentioned Metro link which runs underground in the City Centre ??

No - this is related to the planned heavy-rail (DART) interconnector tunnel linking Spencer Dock and Heuston Station via Pearse, Stephen's Green and Christchurch. It's the link that will (we hope) be the enabler for the transformation of DART into two lines with higher capacity that today's one.

The new lines will be Maynooth-Greystones via Loop Line and Balbriggan-Hazelhatch via Interconnector Tunnel.

merrionsq

Would they just get a move on the build it?

flogen

mackerski wrote: »

No - this is related to the planned heavy-rail (DART) interconnector tunnel linking Spencer Dock and Heuston Station via Pearse, Stephen's Green and Christchurch. It's the link that will (we hope) be the enabler for the transformation of DART into two lines with higher capacity that today's one.

The new lines will be Maynooth-Greystones via Loop Line and Balbriggan-Hazelhatch via Interconnector Tunnel.

Well in fairness there is a slight link in the DART Underground plans and the Metro North plans.

Assuming both go ahead as expected then they will share a concourse under St. Stephen's Green, so passengers can get off the Luas, go down a flight of stairs and take their pick of a Metro or DART... or vice versa.

Other than that there's no real link between the two plans.

Irish and Proud

Igy wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0226/dart.html?rss

Buh?
Why the sudden publicity on this?

It's really just a bit of spin on the part of RTE. As others on this thread mentioned, the work at Pearse Station is in fact a subway which was installed while the line was closed (why close it twice! ) for redevelopment at Lansdowne Road. My understanding is that this work is related to a new entrance to Pearse Station from Pearse Street which will serve some of the new development in the nearby Docklands. However, Irish Rail are also exercising a bit of forward thinking, in that the new subway/concourse is being designed as a component of the eventual interchange (between the existing DART Line and proposed Interconnector).

Regards!

D.L.R.

I wish they'd fast track this thing (no pun now). Why do they have to wait till next year to APPLY for a railway order? Why not now? And then another 2 years until boring commences. Damn, pity things don't happen faster in Ireland. God knows what the traffic will be like in 2015! But still, good to see the gears creaking into life.

paulm17781

D.L.R. wrote: »

I wish they'd fast track this thing (no pun now). Why do they have to wait till next year to APPLY for a railway order? Why not now? And then another 2 years until boring commences. Damn, pity things don't happen faster in Ireland. God knows what the traffic will be like in 2015! But still, good to see the gears creaking into life.

I know. It's nice something is happening and there is attention around it but...

What happened to IE's claim that the network would near collapse in 2010 if they didn't get the Interconnector?

Victor

D.L.R. wrote: »

I wish they'd fast track this thing (no pun now). Why do they have to wait till next year to APPLY for a railway order? Why not now? And then another 2 years until boring commences. Damn, pity things don't happen faster in Ireland. God knows what the traffic will be like in 2015! But still, good to see the gears creaking into life.

How about letting them design it and acquire the property rights first? Or would you like them to race ahead now, find a fundamental problem and have to re-start everything?

Skyhater

Victor wrote: »

D.L.R. wrote: »

I wish they'd fast track this thing (no pun now). Why do they have to wait till next year to APPLY for a railway order? Why not now? And then another 2 years until boring commences. Damn, pity things don't happen faster in Ireland. God knows what the traffic will be like in 2015! But still, good to see the gears creaking into life.

How about letting them design it and acquire the property rights first? Or would you like them to race ahead now, find a fundamental problem and have to re-start everything?

I don't think anybody want's them to skip any required steps or not to pay due diligence, however I certainly believe this project could (and should) be delivered before 2015 (which will probably end up being 2018).

On Monday, Noel Dempsey singled out the interconnector as a vital project that they were trying to FastTrack it..... do we believe him???? :rolleyes:

invincibleirish

D.L.R. wrote: »

I wish they'd fast track this thing (no pun now). Why do they have to wait till next year to APPLY for a railway order? Why not now? And then another 2 years until boring commences. Damn, pity things don't happen faster in Ireland. God knows what the traffic will be like in 2015! But still, good to see the gears creaking into life.

Dont be silly, IE & the Government have more important priorities, remember the WRC (all 800 million of it + however much its going to cost to rebuild the flooded Ennis line) is going to re address this countries inbalanced development, so that with the Governments decentralisation plan will mean that Dublin probably wont even need an Interconnector by 2015.

DWCommuter

What happened to IE's claim that the network would near collapse in 2010 if they didn't get the Interconnector?

The network actually collapsed in 2005, but it was already so crap that commuters didn't really notice.

I wish they'd fast track this thing (no pun now). Why do they have to wait till next year to APPLY for a railway order? Why not now? And then another 2 years until boring commences. Damn, pity things don't happen faster in Ireland. God knows what the traffic will be like in 2015! But still, good to see the gears creaking into life.

Creaking is an overstatement. But the rest of what you say is valid and has a root cause going way back in time.

How about letting them design it and acquire the property rights first? Or would you like them to race ahead now, find a fundamental problem and have to re-start everything?

A bit smug Victor. Ordinary commuters have every right to pose these questions. There is a reality outside of internet forums.* But the trail still leads back to Leinster House, hence the public perception.

I don't think anybody want's them to skip any required steps or not to pay due diligence, however I certainly believe this project could (and should) be delivered before 2015 (which will probably end up being 2018).

On Monday, Noel Dempsey singled out the interconnector as a vital project that they were trying to FastTrack it..... do we believe him????

A realistic view and one that is held by many who don't bother contributing to internet forums.*

Dont be silly, IE & the Government have more important priorities, remember the WRC (all 800 million of it + however much its going to cost to rebuild the flooded Ennis line) is going to re address this countries inbalanced development, so that with the Governments decentralisation plan will mean that Dublin probably wont even need an Interconnector by 2015.

Funny, but sadly a true reflection of the carry on.

*Please note I'm not criticising internet forums, but merely suggesting that comprehensive public opinion cannot be garnered from them and I draw that conclusion from the fact that, as an ex P11/RUI committee member, I found that opinion on the ground differed greatly from that offered to a forum such as here/RUI or even a simple user group with a message board.

Nostradamus

DWCommuter wrote: »

*Please note I'm not criticising internet forums, but merely suggesting that comprehensive public opinion cannot be garnered from them and I draw that conclusion from the fact that, as an ex P11/RUI committee member, I found that opinion on the ground differed greatly from that offered to a forum such as here/RUI or even a simple user group with a message board.

Speak for yourself, I made 100 euros off the Western Rail Corridor the other day.

DWCommuter

Nostradamus wrote: »

Speak for yourself, I made 100 euros off the Western Rail Corridor the other day.

Nice one Nostra. Did you paint the gates?;)

Nostradamus

DWCommuter wrote: »

Nice one Nostra. Did you paint the gates?;)

Just about everything but them funny enough.

Congrats to you and missus btw on the new baby.

DWCommuter

Nostradamus wrote: »

Congrats to you and missus btw on the new baby.

Cheers.
Think I'll start a savings account so she can buy a car when shes 17. She'll need it in this country!

senordingdong

Does nobody else think that the route of this underground Dart line is really poorly thought out?

Victor

How would you change it?

senordingdong

Well, I'm not sure how much it will cost but I'm sure it's more than should be necessary, it will take seven years, and all it really do is connect the docklands to Heuston station, with a few stops in between which are all within walking distance off each other.
I mean, how many people actually make that 'journey' everyday?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0226/dartunderground.pdf

I don't know how to shrink the pdf. map in that link, but I think it's ridiculous, and the resources should be put towards a proper integrated metro system.

Oh, and the change I would make would be making it a circular line all around the city with all other routes intersecting it at some point, like the Moscow underground for example, instead of just a semi-circular line.

Ste.phen

Using those resources makes the DART part of an integrated metro system, though!

D.L.R.

senordingdong wrote: »

Well, I'm not sure how much it will cost but I'm sure it's more than should be necessary, it will take seven years, and all it really do is connect the docklands to Heuston station, with a few stops in between which are all within walking distance off each other.
I mean, how many people actually make that 'journey' everyday?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0226/dartunderground.pdf

I don't know how to shrink the pdf. map in that link, but I think it's ridiculous, and the resources should be put towards a proper integrated metro system.

Oh, and the change I would make would be making it a circular line all around the city with all other routes intersecting it at some point, like the Moscow underground for example, instead of just a semi-circular line.

Wouldn't a circle line cost a lot MORE? I don't think that expense can be justified (at present) but that's not to say it'll never happen. But you haven't made clear whether you think this plan is too much or not enough. Personally I think its a great plan and hope it goes to completion.

The IC targets 2 major problems with Dublin rail- 1. lack of connectivity and 2. the Connolly bottleneck. It creates an X-shaped Dart network with its hub at Pearse. Out of all the proposed rail projects in Dublin, I would score this one the highest in terms of design.

spacetweek

senordingdong wrote: »

Does nobody else think that the route of this underground Dart line is really poorly thought out?

No I don't think so, I think it's perfect in terms of alignment and station location. Plus the difference it will make to the DART when it's complete can't be overstated. It's totally crucial for the city. When it and Metro North are complete, we'll have 3 big rail lines and a bunch of luases to fill in the gaps. The transport situation will be greatly improved. BUILD IT YESTERDAY!

armada104

senordingdong wrote: »

Well, I'm not sure how much it will cost but I'm sure it's more than should be necessary, it will take seven years, and all it really do is connect the docklands to Heuston station, with a few stops in between which are all within walking distance off each other.
I mean, how many people actually make that 'journey' everyday?

Feck all. But this isn't about going from Heuston to Spencer Dock. It's about creating two DART lines that will cross each other at Pearse and link with both Luas lines and the new Metro line to the airport. It's actually quite well thought out, which means it probably won't be built.

This map gives a better idea of the resulting network. This tunnel is probably the most important part of it.

loyatemu

armada104 wrote: »

Feck all. But this isn't about going from Heuston to Spencer Dock. It's about creating two DART lines that will cross each other at Pearse and link with both Luas lines and the new Metro line to the airport. It's actually quite well thought out, which means it probably won't be built.

This map gives a better idea of the resulting network. This tunnel is probably the most important part of it.

I notice that map now has the (really awful) Lucan Luas now continuing onto Adamstown. Is this actually being planned?

senordingdong

Thanks for that Armada, but I still think that's poorly thought out.
I mean look at that metro line....how many people are going to travel between Clondalkin and Swords?
And if people living in Clondalkin want to take the metro into town, they have to go through Liffey Valley, Blanchardstown and Drumcondra? That's ridiculous.
I think the metro should exist to ferry passengers from suburbs to the city centre (or does that map indicate that the Dart will now serve Clondalkin?).
I take this as an example.... , there is a circle line that rides around the city centre, and then other lines that shoot off to all suburbs in all directions, in my head this would meet the Dart at Connolly or Tara st. So, for example, someone wanting to go from Finglas, could get the metro towards the city centre, then get off at the circle line. That would take them to the Dart where they could travel to any of the places on the Dart line, or connect to another line on the circle line and go to Clondalkin, Cabra, Rathfarnham, Dromcondra, Whitehall or Coolock.
It would connect all suburbs and the city centre.

Instead of a linear Dart line with a few stops on it, all of which are within walking distance (and anyone who rides the metro instead of walking such small distances should be ashamed of themselves!) who's only real purpose is to connect the Dart line with Heuston station.

I mean, travelling from one side of the city to another on that ten year plan would involve changing your medium twice & at god knows what cost.

murphaph

DART will serve Clondalkin through the Interconnector. Clondalking folks won't have to take the metro via Blanch and Drumcondra! They will just take DART directly to Stephen's Green!

senordingdong

I had no idea the Dart was extending that far.

murphaph

senordingdong wrote: »

Instead of a linear Dart line with a few stops on it, all of which are within walking distance (and anyone who rides the metro instead of walking such small distances should be ashamed of themselves!) who's only real purpose is to connect the Dart line with Heuston station.

I mean, travelling from one side of the city to another on that ten year plan would involve changing your medium twice & at god knows what cost.

I believe you totally misunderstand the interconnector and associated Dublin Rail Plan if those are your beliefs. The Interconnector will create TWO cross city DART lines in an X formation with the hub at Pearse. It will allow a massive increase in rail journeys, up 3 or 4 fold to app. 100,000,000 per annum. DARTs will run from Hazelhatch in west Dublin (passing through the new high density towns of Adamstown/Clonburris/ParkWest etc. to Heuston, diving underground to serve the south inner city before turning northwards to interchange with the other DART line at Pearse and continuing north to Docklands before surfacing and running along the existing northern line to Balbriggan. DARTs will also run from Maynooth/Pace (N3) to Bray/Greystones on the second new line. Eliminating conflict will allow many more trains to use the rails. If you doubt the ability of the interconnector to revolutionise how we view public transport, you should look at cities which have already built them to connect previously disjointed rail lines approaching opposite sides of the city. Munich's is probably the best example. Google Stammstrecke.

murphaph

senordingdong wrote: »

I had no idea the Dart was extending that far.

It's actually not even as far as IE proposed-they wanted DART to Kildare town and Drogheda. I think it should be extended to a new massive P&R just west of Sallins where the M7 almost kisses the railway.

senordingdong

I dunno, now it sounds too good to be true.

paulm17781

senordingdong wrote: »

I dunno, now it sounds too good to be true.

Agreed, that's the thing though. If it does get built, it will be excellent.

murphaph

Yeah I think this is half the problem. We are so used to second rate 'solutions' from our great leaders that when a genuinely great scheme comes up we are naturally very sceptical that it can be delivered at all.

I am minded to think back to the early optimistic days of the Free State when we embarked fearlessly on the Ardnacrusha scheme. We went from almost no generation to generating more than enough for the whole country. Decades of political misrule has destroyed our optimistism and our belief in ourselves.

senordingdong

I imagine it will be plagued by over priced journies, on in-frequent trains which are too small to cater for the amount of people relying on them.

Skyhater

senordingdong wrote: »

I dunno, now it sounds too good to be true.

Read all about the good stuff here

Tell all your friends.... Not enough of the general commuting public (just like yourself) know about the Interconnector (DART Underground) yet alone know all the benefits!!!

I just don't understand why the Press haven't picked up on it's importance. They are just swallowing any bull that IE and the Dept. of Transport are feeding them.
It should be elevated to the status of "Top Transport Project in Ireland"!!!

senordingdong

And is that exactly what is going ahead Skyhater?

Skyhater

senordingdong wrote: »

And is that exactly what is going ahead Skyhater?

Yep!!.... Train frequencies, etc may change.... but the infrastructure is KEY, and will make real integration possible.

Apart from proper prioritisation of projects (Interconnector Top), my concern is providing seamless integration. Obviously integrated ticketing is key to this (god know when that will happen) and the recent clarification that the Stephens green underground station will be jointly built by the RPA and IE is good news.

However with 2 different authorities looking after rail (+ Dublin Bus) they need to work really close to ensure an integrated system.
We really we need an overall body to look after physical integration at this key design stage (ie The long promised Dublin Transport Authority).

We can see examples all over the current IE and RPA projects where proper integration design is not happening:
- You should be able to go directly down an escalator from The Huston Luas stop into the underground Dart station. This is not in the current design.
- The initial plans for Porterstown "Metro West" (aka Luas West) stop is a considerable distance away from any future Porterstown Dart station. Should be in the same building!!!
- No plans have been release for direct access from The Drumconrath Metro stop to the Drumconrath Rail Station.
- etc, etc

IMO a good rule would be the "you don't get wet rule". You should be able to change from Luas to Dart to Intercity, etc ideally within the same covered station or by walking along covered footpath.

OH... Just remembered another piece of good news.. The Docklands Dart stop will now be directly underneath the Luas Stop (they were looking at another option that was under the Liffey).

KC61

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dart_underground.asp

This link should tell you all that you need to know about the project.