Congestion charging Dub city on the way-outrageous or sensible?

gurramok

Do you think this measure will get you out of the car and use Dublin's excellent public transport system?

Outrageous or sensible proposal, what do the boardsie environmentalists think?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/controversial-congestion-charge-on-way-for-city-centre-motorists-1297106.html

indo wrote:

THE Government will today formally unveil controversial proposals for London-style congestion charges for Dublin and new "pay-as-you-drive" road pricing for our main roads.

The measures will cite international examples of where these initiatives have worked, such as congestion fees in Stockholm and London, and bill-pay road-price tolling in the Netherlands.

The Government plan, called Sustainable Transport and Travel, aims to free cities from traffic congestion, move people away from cars and increase public transport usage.

Road pricing means that motorists pay directly for driving on a particular roadway or in a particular area, similar to tolls.

Congestion charges involve drivers paying a fee to enter a city-centre cordon. This has worked well in London and is being credited with a 20pc reduction in car numbers in the zones. The document, being published by Transport Minister Noel Dempsey today, warns that unless such measures are considered, we face a grim future: l Average speeds in urban areas in morning peak hour in Dublin will have dropped from 13kmh, in 2006, to 8kmh, in 2016. l Increased dependence on car travel will contribute to obesity. l Traffic pollution will cause increasing damage to health and contribute to acute and chronic diseases.

Mr Dempsey says that while he has no ideological difficulty with congestion charges, he believes they should only be introduced when sufficient public transport alternatives are in place.

The Transport 21 suite of plans must be complete or almost complete before we can seriously examine the possibility of congestion charging, he says.

Mr Dempsey wants the public to make their voices heard on what measures they think should be introduced to encourage us all to change our travel behaviour, as over-reliance on cars is unsustainable and cannot continue without dramatically worse gridlock

The Government is committed to spending over €16bn under Transport 21 to improve public transport.

However, even with this level of investment delivering a new Metro, Luas extensions, new buses and new rail cars, it will not be enough to avoid extra gridlock.

Mr Dempsey said yesterday: "If we continue our current travel patterns, traffic congestion will increase and quality of life and the quality of our environment will decline. We can't allow that to happen."

"We need to see a major shift to public transport and we're investing to make this an attractive option. We need to dramatically reduce CO2 emissions in this sector, and we need to ease congestion and free up valuable time for commuters," he added.

Other options being outlined today include more flexible working time, workplace travel plans, car sharing, car clubs, school travel plans, including walking and buses, more integrated transport planning, better walking and cycle routes, and increased use of park and ride facilities.

A public consultation will follow, after which officials will publish a detailed action plan setting out what exact measures will be introduced, including the possible congestion charges and road pricing.

One of the ideas up for discussion in this document is a sustainable travel public awareness campaign based on the concept of the popular Tidy Towns competition.

Towns and cities would be encouraged to become a "sustainable travel demonstration town or city".

seamus

What have London and Stockholm got that we haven't?

Well reliable public transport and decent facilities for cyclists, to name two.

I really hope this public consultation comes back with the findings that, "People don't have enough public transport". The Government know this, but if they press ahead despite public resistance, the media will eat them.

gurramok

For starters, i wouldn't cycle on Dublins roads, it's a suicide mission every time, that bad. :mad:

ianhobo

Its a terrible idea, and another fine example of how the government refuses to see the true problem.

Again, they are trying to fix the problem by charging people money, rather than providing a solution. i.e more efficient public transport services.

The sole (IMHO) why people do not use public transport is because it is an un-believably poor system. It is over priced, and under operated.

My 16 mile journey to work takes takes 2 and a half hours on public transport!!!! thats 5 hours a day spent travelling!!!!
even sitting on the m50 in my car takes less than 4hours.
And no, my bus doesn't go on the m50!

I hate public transport because it is so so poor. The only reason i choose to use it is because if I spend another hour on the m50, I may kill someone

seamus

ianhobo wrote: »

The sole (IMHO) why people do not use public transport is because it is an un-believably poor system. It is over priced, and under operated.

My 16 mile journey to work takes takes 2 and a half hours on public transport!!!! thats 5 hours a day spent travelling!!!!
even sitting on the m50 in my car takes less than 4hours.
And no, my bus doesn't go on the m50!

I hate public transport because it is so so poor. The only reason i choose to use it is because if I spend another hour on the m50, I may kill someone

To a certain extent and in some places, it's a chicken-and-egg scenario. That is, the public transport is screwed because there's so much traffic. So the single main thing which would improve public transport is to reduce the traffic.

However, I will always stick to my belief that there simply isn't enough variety and frequency of routes offered to make people switch to the bus. Whatever about light rail and underground - it's years away - busses can be put on quickly and cheaply. Once we increase light rail services, the bus volumes can be cut back.

I would be far more willing to pay a little extra in tax to subsidise more busses and rail building than pay a "toll" for the rare time I might enter the city.

Rb

Fcking Fianna Fail, do they ever stop with this retarded bullshít. It's almost a weekly occurance now that some Fianna Fail príck comes out with another stupid proposal.

Dyr

You're saying its up to dublin bus drivers to save the city? Good luck lads

Sleepy

So we'll hire a load of new bus drivers and then cull them after proper public transport is built in 5 to 7 years?

Anyone else think we'll see a massive public transport union strike in 5 to 7 years?

ScumLord

I'm all for it, I think it's hilarious!

biko

I hope they bring it in in all major cities in Ireland. Driving to work is a fecking joke now.
Buses, trams, cycle lanes ftw

What it's like today.

Sleepy

That'd be great if there was actually a reliable public transport system. I work in London occasionally and the convenience of the tube in incredible.

Cycling in Dublin is just irresponsible if you've anyone depending on you. I cycled to work for about three months and had to give it up before I was either killed by some numpty in a jeep or declared a jihad on everyone who drove them.

super_furry

This could potentially be a good idea if it goes hand-in-hand with a drastic improvement to public transport and more crucially a government supported school bus service, otherwise it's just pissing in the wind. I don't think anyone could argue that there aren't too many cars on the road, and in the morning there a major problem with oul one's driving their chubby offspring 500 yards to school and blocking up the roads. The difference between summer traffic and the rest of the year is obvious.

skywalker

rb_ie wrote: »

Fcking Fianna Fail, do they ever stop with this retarded bullshít. It's almost a weekly occurance now that some Fianna Fail príck comes out with another stupid proposal.

Agreed. Noel Dempsey in particular. Ive yet to hear him making an announcement about something & thought it was a good idea/improvement.

togster

Its a catch 22. The public transport is a fcuking joke in Ireland. There are little to no cycle lanes. Living abroad makes you realise just how crap it is.

Tusky

Its a good idea but as the article says, public transport needs to be improved 500% before it will work. Look at the tube in London or even the buses. Our public transport doesnt come close.

I get the maynooth train into college every morning and it is dangerously packed. I don't just mean uncomfortably packed, it is actually dangerous. Its so packed you cannot lift your arms from your sides and its difficult to breath..!

seamus

Sleepy wrote: »

So we'll hire a load of new bus drivers and then cull them after proper public transport is built in 5 to 7 years?

Anyone else think we'll see a massive public transport union strike in 5 to 7 years?

Hire them on a rolling one-year contract with the expectation of only having it renewed for 5 - 7 years. Train them to drive busses and when their contract will no longer be renewed, give them first preference on being trained to drive the trams/trains.

Can't say fairer than that.

Rb

Tusky wrote: »

Its a good idea but as the article says, public transport needs to be improved 500% before it will work. Look at the tube in London or even the buses. Our public transport doesnt come close.

I get the maynooth train into college every morning and it is dangerously packed. I don't just mean uncomfortably packed, it is actually dangerous. Its so packed you cannot lift your arms from your sides and its difficult to breath..!

The LUAS gets like that in the morning also, the amount of people they'll let on to a tram at the one time is ridiculous.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

I don't think they have much of a choice how many get on. I love the idea of having shorter trams on the morning stretch.

Regarding congestion charging? Yeah, go on, I could do with a laugh and I'm always in favour of taxing something I don't use.

Edit - I do like the idea fo charging high-pollution cars like SUVs extra too. You want to drive what you like? Fine - we'll charge you what we like....!

Wertz

Copying the brits again. I said this was going to happen in 3 or so years, back when London introduced it.
When I work in the city centre, I usually need to have car/van with me (or be a passnger in one) to carry supplies and equipment. Congestion charges would just be a fact or life (and tax deductible I'd hope), but public transport wouldn't be feasible.

My main concern would be the method of collection...the last thing this country needs is more feckin' toll booths and the queues they create. Then again if they do it like London has, the infrastructure and tech needed to make it workable will take us ages to install and end up costing a king's ransom...which will probably have to be factored into the actual charge itself.
London pays £5stg...enough to make it a deterrent....what would be an equivalent deterrent over here? €10? More?
Last problem; enforcement....we have trouble already enforcing regulations on traffic...would the gardaí be charged with enforcing payment for people who flauted the charge?

Fratton Fred

They should copy the London example of cameras in bus stops, bus lanes and yellow boxes. These all work a treat and keep the traffic flowing nicely as drivers know that if you block a yellow box, you will get fined.

Ken also channels all the money from congestion charging into public transport, I wonder if that would happen here?

I think it is a great idea but you need to get it done in the right order, the Dart and Luas are already overcrowded and many bus routes have overcrowded buses, so what choice are people going to have?

Spend big on public transport then penalise people for not using it.

gurramok

More on this this afternoon.

Now with regard to 'workplace parking levies', can we start getting TD's, the public/civil service out of their cars as well and abandon their inner city free parking to set an example for everyone else?

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0225/transport.html

rte wrote:

The Minister for Transport, Noel Dempsey, has launched a public consultation document on a new national programme for sustainable transport and travel.

Congestion charges, workplace parking levies and fuel and carbon taxes are amongst the issues on which the Government are seeking consultation from members of the public.

Mr Dempsey said he was not assuming that congestion charges would be introduced under the new sustainable transport programme.
Advertisement

Minister Dempsey said he was not opposed to congestion charges but that quite a lot of work had to be done with the transport infrastructure before such charges could come on stream.

He said alternatives to people must be provided before any such charge could apply, adding that congestion charges could only be part of the solution.

He also said a change in behaviour from members of the public was central to resolving congestion problems.

Mr Dempsey raised a doubt as to whether an increased number of vehicles would be added to the Dublin bus fleet.

He said he did not intend purchasing another 300 buses for the city if he could not be assured they would be used effectively.

AlmightyCushion

They'll need to seriously improve public transport for this to work. Public transport in Dublin is a joke. They'll need to add more routes and have them operating more frequently. Maybe have some park and ride facilities for people who live a good bit away from the city. They could drive to the park and ride facility and get bus/train/tram from there. Either that or invent teleportation.

Overheal

If this were Simcity I would have deleted Dublin by now, tbh.

astraboy

When you can get from one side of a city to another, easily, cheaply and reliably on public transport, then and only then should a congestion charge be considered. Busses are a rare and unusual sight down here in cork. Public transport in Ireland in general is a joke. Only private companies provide a decent service, 7E cork-dublin on the aircoach, about 45-50E on Ryanair, 69E on the train! :rolleyes:

iguana

Wertz wrote: »

London pays £5stg...enough to make it a deterrent....what would be an equivalent deterrent over here? €10? More?

The congestion charge is £8 here now. Or £10 if you pay it the day after you travel. So you're talking about €15 if they introduced it as an equivalent amount in Dublin.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

astraboy wrote: »

When you can get from one side of a city to another, easily, cheaply and reliably on public transport, then and only then should a congestion charge be considered. Busses are a rare and unusual sight down here in cork. Public transport in Ireland in general is a joke. Only private companies provide a decent service, 7E cork-dublin on the aircoach, about 45-50E on Ryanair, 69E on the train! :rolleyes:

Theoretically, it will be easier to get from one side of a city to the other IF the congestion charge comes in. Listening to motorists moan about traffic and payments is getting to be a bit like listening to Bono moan about poverty.

Wertz

iguana wrote: »

The congestion charge is £8 here now. Or £10 if you pay it the day after you travel. So you're talking about €15 if they introduced it as an equivalent amount in Dublin.

Holy sh*t. Didn't know they put it up by that much. Makes the port tunnel seem like good value...

€15 eh? Sure that'll be just rounded up to a score to pay NTR or whoever's going to be the private operator...

seamus

This is one public consultation I actually intend to respond to....hopefully. Damn my procrastination.

Red Alert

Me too, I really don't like the idea of these tracking devices that they want to fit into people's cars. Number plate scanners at entry points to the congestion zone are much less invasive.

Wertz

Aye at least you can muddy up your plates

syklops

I have been to New York, Boston, and London, and public transport is a dream. In london, I was never more than about 300 metres from a tube stop, and I knew there would be another train with in minutes.

Boston was the same. New york I got a happy surprise, because they said it was so dirty, and dangerous etc. TBH, I found it to be cleaner that the dart, not as crowded, and way more visible cops on each of the platforms, each with bfg's.

I use taxi's all the time, for the simple reason that
(a) I am 6'4 and do not fit in your average bus seat. When sat in the seat I have to sit diagonally, and if the bus is full, I am very uncomfortable. Add to that, that I rarely need to go some where to somewhere else that a bus goes all the way to. For example, I used to work in blackrock, and the only way I had seamless travel to and from work was getting the bus from Rathmines to Dun Laoighre, and then getting the Dart to Blackrock. Alternatively, it was a 30 minute walk at at least one end.

I know work in citywest. DONT get me started on citywest. I live a five minute walk from Ranelagh Luas station. If the two luases linked up, I would would be able to get most of the way rather cheaply. Going home there is one bus[as in it goes at a certain time, and one time slot at that!] in the evening I can get, and on the way I pass the sign that says "Luas Station --> 100 metres. Arriving 2009/2010". It is the most maddening sign to look at every evening.

Wrt congestion charges. by all means stop cars from going into the city centre, but I want a safe clean bus waiting for me, that will take my 5 euro note off me if I have no change, and will take me to where ever I want to go. Until that happens I will not pay a congestion charge. Simple as that.

NeMiSiS

The Dublin bus "stages" system needs to be scrapped. I wouldn't like to be a tourist trying to figure out Dublin bus. Bus system in Paris is amazing, and Metro. Maps are easy to figure out too. Getting rid of the double deckers might help to get rid of the .. bad elements of traveling upstairs, if you "nah wha i mean".

Jim Mansfield from what I remember actually offered to pay himself for the Luas to be run into to city west, and was turned down.

Bus lanes should be open to car pooling also.

Turn left on red should be considered at lights.

"Get ready" lights similar to the UK should be introduced.

Some junctions should have their lights removed altogether, this has been proven to work elsewhere in the world. The driver has actually engage with traffic , pedestrians, cyclists, etc. Of course they should do this, but most people think along the lines of red - stop - green - go. This would have them actively driving and having to be aware.

Traffic lights should be "smart". The huge amount of utterly terrible light sequencing is amazing throughout Dublin. Tallaght village tends to come to a standstill because of very badly sequenced lights, same with the Firhouse road. They are only two that spring to mind, I have to deal with them most days. I am sure people can name many many more.

Fares should be standard - 2 euro on Luas and buses. Tcikets should be cross compatible.

There's a couple of thing's to get started on.. rather than robbing us of more money, and then spending it stupidly.

TK