We should be eating carbs after a workout !!

thegoth

Both these site say that you should eat alot of carbs rather than protein after a workout. One of them even says that you should eat a carb protein ratio of 4:1. This is the first time I read this. I only eat protein after a workout.

http://www.eatwell.gov.uk/healthydiet/foodforsport/sportnexercise/
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/nutrition/a/aa081403.htm

Any comments

Confused

smithslist

it depends on what your goals are, and what type of workout you have done, and possible your nutrition during your workout.

if you alot of carbs (& less protien) after workout, you wont build as much muscle as you would if you eat alot of protien instead of carbs.

maybe best explaining your workout, nutrition and main goals

i know high 5 do a 4:1 carb:Protien drink powder for during excercise, which was popular mostly last yr
http://www.highfive.co.uk/energy_endurance_drinks/energy_source4_1.htm

nibble

Yes the no. 1 thing you need post workout is carbohydrates, the faster digesting the better. That means the more sugary the better (sort of), dextrose/glucose and maltodextrin are examples of fast digesting carbs, they're found in sports drinks and you can also buy them in bulk for putting in your PWO shake.

The prime reason you need them straight away is to re-stock your muscles stores of glycogen which get depleted during activity, if you don't do this you'll go into a catobolic state meaning your muscles will begin to break down. This is obviously counter-productive.

You can have protein too post workout but its not strictly needed like the carbs are, just another opportunity to get more.

Sangre

I think most people would advise consuming both protein and carbs after a workout, especially a lifting session.

thegoth

My goals are to gain some muscle. Here is my diet at the moment. Any suggestions

07:00 - Bananna
07:15 - Gym (Weights Mon, Wed, Fri. Cardio Tues, Thur)
08:45 - Chicken Fillet
10:00 - 2 Slices of Wholemeal bread with cheese and egg
11:30 - 5 Slices of ham
13:30 - Dinner - Chicken/Fish, veg, patatoe
15:30 - Yougurt/Nuts
17:30 - Chicken Sambo on brown bread
19:00 - Ham or Turkey

BossArky

thegoth wrote: »

My goals are to gain some muscle. Here is my diet at the moment. Any suggestions

07:00 - Bananna
07:15 - Gym (Weights Mon, Wed, Fri. Cardio Tues, Thur)
08:45 - Chicken Fillet
10:00 - 2 Slices of Wholemeal bread with cheese and egg
11:30 - 5 Slices of ham
13:30 - Dinner - Chicken/Fish, veg, patatoe
15:30 - Yougurt/Nuts
17:30 - Chicken Sambo on brown bread
19:00 - Ham or Turkey

Didn't you post exactly the same in a thread a few days ago? Why not take the advice from that one?

Hornd

The best thing to take after a workout is waximaize with protein if you want to gain weight. Its a long chain, high molecular weight carb which helps facilitate rapid glycogen resynthesis and nutrient uptake into the muscles

It also can rapidly shuttle nutrients, as well as other supplements (e.g. creatine), through the stomach and into the bloodstream where they are then delivered directly to the muscles.

You will also create an insulin spike in the blood helping absorption of nutrients ie protein / creatine etc.

decatren

smithslist wrote: »

it depends on what your goals are, and what type of workout you have done, and possible your nutrition during your workout.

if you alot of carbs (& less protien) after workout, you wont build as much muscle as you would if you eat alot of protien instead of carbs.

maybe best explaining your workout, nutrition and main goals

i know high 5 do a 4:1 carb:Protien drink powder for during excercise, which was popular mostly last yr
http://www.highfive.co.uk/energy_endurance_drinks/energy_source4_1.htm

Smithslist, what a poor reply to a question, I would have to question ur experience and qualifications in this area, Im not sure that u understand how the body, if trained correctly will respond to protein/carbs/fats, Im afraid that u are exactly the kind of uneducated old wifes tail telling type of person who damages all of us serious trainers who understand the combination of correct training and nutrition , I think it would be better if you left ur idiotic replies to urslf so u can ruin ur own body and leave the real training and nutrition to us who have a real passion for it

Hanley

decatren wrote: »

Smithslist, what a poor reply to a question, I would have to question ur experience and qualifications in this area, Im not sure that u understand how the body, if trained correctly will respond to protein/carbs/fats, Im afraid that u are exactly the kind of uneducated old wifes tail telling type of person who damages all of us serious trainers who understand the combination of correct training and nutrition , I think it would be better if you left ur idiotic replies to urslf so u can ruin ur own body and leave the real training and nutrition to us who have a real passion for it

What would you suggest so?

thegoth

decatren, Hanley beat me too it. Thanks for the post. Would be very interested in your suggestions. You seem to know what your talking about

tallaght01

I always thought the data showed that it was really carbs that are important after training, as that when you're laying down glycogen extra fast.

I havent got references to hand, but there are studies showing that only a tiny tiny monority of (meat eating) people don't get enough dietary protein on board (through their normal diet) to cope with the increased muscle repair/synthesis after exercise.

I always take advantage of my increased glycogen synthase levels after a workout. Never really give protein much thought, though, as I get enough in my diet.

Muscle production is happening over a much longer period than the 2-3 hour window for increasing glyocgen production. That's why you get the carbs on board early. I think that's the important point in all of this, if that makes any sense.

Khannie

thegoth wrote: »

You seem to know what your talking about

You taking the mickey?

Just because this person calls themselves a "serious trainer" doesn't mean sh*t IMO. That post was totally OTT and a really bad way to introduce yourself to a forum.

celestial

Khannie wrote: »

You taking the mickey?

Just because this person calls themselves a "serious trainer" doesn't mean sh*t IMO. That post was totally OTT and a really bad way to introduce yourself to a forum.

I think he was being sarcastic Khannie - as in 'ok enlighten us then, you seem to know it all'.

'We should be eating carbs after a workout' - This is yet another example of a point of view, albeit apparently backed up by science, being touted as a universal truth for everyone, everywhere ('we should').

Who should? Maybe it's the right advice for an endurance athlete running 6 times a week, or a powerlifter, or rower, or whatever.

Is it absolutely essential, however, for the average punter in the gym looking to lose some belly fat to get a 4:1 ratio of carbs-protein no later than 2 hours after a workout - or is it more in tune with their fat loss goals for them to have a very small amount of carbs, and plenty of protein? I think most would agree the latter choice is the way to go, at least until they achieve their goal (after which point they may prefer to go with more carbs, if that is their personal preference and it's not leading them in the wrong direction).

Once again, it's not what is right full stop, it's what is right for your goals at any particular point in time.

tallaght01

why do you need to get protein to loose belly fat? And why is it essential to get it 2 hours after training?

celestial

tallaght01 wrote: »

why do you need to get protein to loose belly fat? And why is it essential to get it 2 hours after training?

Well, I didn't actually say either of those things. What I'm saying is that those specifically looking to lose fat may do better with a larger amount of protein and a smaller amount of carbs (at any time, not just after a workout). I wouldn't say it is essential 2 hours after training, just whenever you get hungry (which will generally be less than 2 hours after a workout.

tallaght01

celestial wrote: »

I
Is it absolutely essential, however, for the average punter in the gym looking to lose some belly fat to get a 4:1 ratio of carbs-protein no later than 2 hours after a workout - .

tallaght01 wrote: »

why do you need to get protein to loose belly fat? And why is it essential to get it 2 hours after training?

celestial wrote: »

Well, I didn't actually say either of those things. What I'm saying is that those specifically looking to lose fat may do better with a larger amount of protein and a smaller amount of carbs (at any time, not just after a workout). I wouldn't say it is essential 2 hours after training, just whenever you get hungry (which will generally be less than 2 hours after a workout.

Apologies celestial. I read the underlined as "it is".

The point about the carbs after training is that you can replenish your glycogen much more quickly post-exercise (up to five hours post exercise) by eating carbs. Though the problem is that a lot of those carbs are taken up by your liver etc, so it doesn't all go to the liver.

Then there's the issue of protein. Probably a red herring if you're taking a nice big carb load after exercise.

Less protein/more carbs is good for quick weight loss, due to effects on insulin. BUt there's some data to show that people who follow this dietary pattern loose more weight initially than others, but at 9months after commencement of the diet are pretty much the same as everyone else.

smithslist

decatren wrote: »

Smithslist, what a poor reply to a question, I would have to question ur experience and qualifications in this area, Im not sure that u understand how the body, if trained correctly will respond to protein/carbs/fats, Im afraid that u are exactly the kind of uneducated old wifes tail telling type of person who damages all of us serious trainers who understand the combination of correct training and nutrition , I think it would be better if you left ur idiotic replies to urslf so u can ruin ur own body and leave the real training and nutrition to us who have a real passion for it

First of all, decatren i dont want to move away from the forum topic, and argue. But i do think your reply is out of order as i would support Khainne on his post.

For your interest, I dont think i left a "idiotic" reply, it was a general reply to most of the posts on this fitness forum, where people would asked for advice and not give their sport, nutritional, fitness etc background/goals.

Were still waiting for your reply in explaining "correct training and nutrition" (quote and unquote your reply) advice for thegoth, im sure you reply will be more specific to thegoth goals since he has placed them on the forum now, actually in fact if you read my reply it was something that i was requesting.

I dont think you should question a person "passion" for "training and nutrition", based on one reply and not knowing that person fitness, training routine.

BTW, my body is in great fitness shape and is not so "ruined" as you have mentioned.

Leon11

decatren reminds me of someone

Hanley

RE: Decatren's post. Look at the name.. Think decadurobolin and trenbolone. Gives me a good laugh at least!!

tallaght01 wrote: »

I always thought the data showed that it was really carbs that are important after training, as that when you're laying down glycogen extra fast.

I havent got references to hand, but there are studies showing that only a tiny tiny monority of (meat eating) people don't get enough dietary protein on board (through their normal diet) to cope with the increased muscle repair/synthesis after exercise.

I always take advantage of my increased glycogen synthase levels after a workout. Never really give protein much thought, though, as I get enough in my diet.

Muscle production is happening over a much longer period than the 2-3 hour window for increasing glyocgen production. That's why you get the carbs on board early. I think that's the important point in all of this, if that makes any sense.

While I would dispute the bolded part (purely because for me, the more protein I get in the less DOM'y I am, which should indicate better recovery) I broadly agree with what's being said.

If I was given the choice of protein or carbs, based on what I now know, I would take the carbs. Radical I know, but I'm becoming more and more skeptical of the importance of PWO right after a work out. I've had great results with eating solid food an hour after training and foregoing a PWO shake.

When it comes down to it, a different/"wrong" ratio of carbs and protein PWO or not getting nutrients in fast enough isn't gonna break a training cycle.

tallaght01

Hanley wrote: »

While I would dispute the bolded part (purely because for me, the more protein I get in the less DOM'y I am, which should indicate better recovery) I broadly agree with what's being said.

But if you're going to devote your life to increased muscle mass, then you're likely to be one of the small portion of people mentioned above.

Though presumably protein after exercise shouldn't effect the intensity of DOMS (as the damage is done during exercise), but merely how long DOMS last for.



Edited for confusing typing :P : Further to te rest of your post Hanley, I owuld agree.There's lots of research to show protein makes zero difference after exercise in terms of replacing energy (glycogen) in muscleif a good carb load is taken in,

Wish I could remember where I read it, though

Hanley

tallaght01 wrote: »

But if you're going to devote your life to increased muscle mass, then you're likely to be one of the small portion of people mentioned above.

Hmmm I see your point. But is it unreasonable to say that the majority of people who join a gym are looking to improve their physical appearance? If they are, and assuming they're training "properly" ie weights and a bit of cardio then they could also benefit from increased protein consumption surely?

Exercise somes in many forms, are the cases your quoting talking about any specific forms of exercise? I would imagine running and weight training require different amounts of protein to recovery optimally pwo.

Though presumably protein after exercise shouldn't effect the intensity of DOMS (as the damage is done during exercise), but merely how long DOMS last for.

Again, Hmmmm... that's actually something I hadn't thought of. I mostly exp. DOMs for the first time the day after training and they get less worse over the next few days, so if sufficent levels of protein are available when most of the healing is taking place (on the first night post training say) then a higher quantity of protein should result in a better repair process taking place? Since more of the damage has been repaired. That is to say, better repairs = less DOMS?

Over simplifying... If you're building a house, the more bricks you have in the initial period the less drafty the walls are gonna be. If you've a small quantity of bricks on the first day the walls are gonna be full of holes. The faster you can get the bricks up, the faster the drafts will stop?

I would have thought the same thing applied to recovery? I don't actually know if it does or not, but the theory seems sound.

Further to what you said, Hanley, there's lots of interesting research suggestng that carbs after exercise are better for muscle building than protein. It's thought to be to do with insulin.

Wish I could remember where I read it, thougt

I would hazard a guess that on their own, neither are optimal, but that a certain point is reached where 1g more of carbs is better than 1g more of protein. Where this points exists, or how it can be found, I have no idea. I know the prevailing theory is 2:1 carbs:protein but since carbs are doubling for every unit of protein I would guess this becomes out of whack at a certain point.

tallaght01

Hanley wrote: »

Hmmm I see your point. But is it unreasonable to say that the majority of people who join a gym are looking to improve their physical appearance? If they are, and assuming they're training "properly" ie weights and a bit of cardio then they could also benefit from increased protein consumption surely?

There's nothing wrong with extra protein per se. It's just that, unless someone is training to an extremely high standard, it's unlikely that they're not getting enough protein in their diet to facilitate the muscle growth that they're looking for. Most adults have a surplus of protein i their diet.

Hanley wrote: »

Again, Hmmmm... that's actually something I hadn't thought of. I mostly exp. DOMs for the first time the day after training and they get less worse over the next few days, so if sufficent levels of protein are available when most of the healing is taking place (on the first night post training say) then a higher quantity of protein should result in a better repair process taking place? Since more of the damage has been repaired. That is to say, better repairs = less DOMS?

Agreed. I'm sure the length of time you have DOMS for will be shortened if you take some protein (or at least if you have adequate dietary protein for muscle rebuilding). But it's unlikelt to prevent DOMS. Having said that i've never seen a study that looks at preventing DOMS with protein. There was one where they tried preventing it with a carb load, but it had no effect.

Hanley wrote: »

Over simplifying... If you're building a house, the more bricks you have in the initial period the less drafty the walls are gonna be. If you've a small quantity of bricks on the first day the walls are gonna be full of holes. The faster you can get the bricks up, the faster the drafts will stop?

Agreed. But the problem is how to stop the holes appearing in the first place. Unfortunately having lots and lots of bricks delivered straight away, and oly one builder won't increase how fast he can work, once his saturation point is reached though.

Hanley wrote: »

I would hazard a guess that on their own, neither are optimal, but that a certain point is reached where 1g more of carbs is better than 1g more of protein. Where this points exists, or how it can be found, I have no idea. I know the prevailing theory is 2:1 carbs:protein but since carbs are doubling for every unit of protein I would guess this becomes out of whack at a certain point.

here's a link to a good study that shows what I'm talking about with regard to extra protein in the post-exercise window. Now, this doesn't mean that you don't need protein during the day post-exercise to help with muscle rebuilding. Just that you don't neccesarily need it in the 5 hour window.

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.Sports Med. 2003;33(2):117-44.

The following (taken from the study abstract) is interesting:

The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (> or =1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis.

So they're saying that if you take enough carbs, protein won't help you with your glycogen resynthesis, but you MIGHT be able to use the insulin surge to build muscle. But who knows where that will go. It's worth keeping an eye on though.

Hanley

tallaght01 wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with extra protein per se. It's just that, unless someone is training to an extremely high standard, it's unlikely that they're not getting enough protein in their diet to facilitate the muscle growth that they're looking for. Most adults have a surplus of protein i their diet.

I would contest that most adults have a much larger surplus of carbs than protein in their diet, so to that end, for appearances sake more protein would be better. But I guess that's arguing around the original point.

How do you ascertain how much of a surplus they have tho? I would imagine it's a pretty tricky thing to put an exact figure of how much they're over, and why.

Agreed. I'm sure the length of time you have DOMS for will be shortened if you take some protein (or at least if you have adequate dietary protein for muscle rebuilding). But it's unlikelt to prevent DOMS. Having said that i've never seen a study that looks at preventing DOMS with protein. There was one where they tried preventing it with a carb load, but it had no effect.

I don't think it would absolutely prevent DOMs, but depending on rep and set ranges I think it could go a great distancce towards stopping the worst of it (but again the creation of DOMs is so situation dependent).

So carb loading doesn't prevent DOMs, not too surprised there. Has there been any studies which combined carbs and protein to prevent/minimise DOMs? Empirically this definately works for me, and considering 2:1 is the recommended ratio, I assume some study has been done.

Agreed. But the problem is how to stop the holes appearing in the first place. Unfortunately having lots and lots of bricks delivered straight away, and oly one builder won't increase how fast he can work, once his saturation point is reached though.

Let me guess... The extra bricklayers are called insulin right? Nice analogy.

here's a link to a good study that shows what I'm talking about with regard to extra protein in the post-exercise window. Now, this doesn't mean that you don't need protein during the day post-exercise to help with muscle rebuilding. Just that you don't neccesarily need it in the 5 hour window.

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.Sports Med. 2003;33(2):117-44.

The following (taken from the study abstract) is interesting:

The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (> or =1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis.

So they're saying that if you take enough carbs, protein won't help you with your glycogen resynthesis, but you MIGHT be able to use the insulin surge to build muscle. But who knows where that will go. It's worth keeping an eye on though.

Ahem... reading and interpreting studies certainly would not be my strong point!! I'll have a look in the AM and see if I can figure out what's being said.

flywheel

Hanley wrote: »

I would contest that most adults have a much larger surplus of carbs than protein in their diet

i'd have thought that too, we tackled this in sports nutrition class recently and within the class it came out most people weren't getting enough carbs... it appeared people were getting so focused on protein intake they might have taken their eye off the amount of carbs they actually need... i know i had...

thegoth

Please see here http://www.dietbodybuilding.com/lose-weight-and-build-mass.html

Can someone explain if this is right. It says to lose fat and gain mass, you should eat nearly all proteins.

flywheel

looks to just be advocating the Atkins diet... as far as random 'information' found online, usually best to find out if it is from a credible source... couldn't see any source info on that site... the article read like a lot of cut and pasting with not much to back it up (i.e. attribution / references)

as a suggestion, rather than relying on sourceless artciles or forum posts from random punters perhaps seek the advide of a qualified nutritionist / dietition if you really want to get things sorted out... if you don't want to go to a professional have you done a food intake diary / nutrition assessment on yourself? that would be a good starting point...

Dragan

Personally at this point carb/protein cycling has gotten as basic as "what am i doing, have i done for the next/last five hours". If heavy physical activity has occurred then i'm eating plenty of carbs.

Post workout i probably end up taking in excatly the same in grams of carbs and protein in the same 2:1 ration as all my other carb heavy meals.

Since dropping back to the very basics i didn't suddenly get small and weak and lose everything i thought all the minor details had gotten me. Turns out the human body is far more robust that i gave it credit for and was able to survive without all these "windows" and "super eating strategies" i had been worrying about.

Hanley

DubWireless wrote: »

looks to just be advocating the Atkins diet... as far as random 'information' found online, usually best to find out if it is from a credible source... couldn't see any source info on that site... the article read like a lot of cut and pasting with not much to back it up (i.e. attribution / references)

as a suggestion, rather than relying on sourceless artciles or forum posts from random punters perhaps seek the advide of a qualified nutritionist / dietition if you really want to get things sorted out... if you don't want to go to a professional have you done a food intake diary / nutrition assessment on yourself? that would be a good starting point...

Low carb, high protein diets have been around MUCH longer than the Atkins diet. Bodybuilders have been using the for decades to strip fat off.

When all is said and done, you really won't find a more effeicent method of losing fat than dropping carbs, and increasing protein and fat. This doesn't have to mean living off bacon/eggs etc etc. There's lots of choices out there as to what to eat.

Consulting a nutritionist really isn't neccesary imo unless you've some particular dietary requirements. Dropping fat isn't as complicated as everyone would seem to believe. It's relatively simple to come up with a plan of attack. Sticking to that plan is the hard part.

amazingemmet

Hanley wrote: »

Consulting a nutritionist really isn't neccesary imo unless you've some particular dietary requirements. Dropping fat isn't as complicated as everyone would seem to believe. It's relatively simple to come up with a plan of attack. Sticking to that plan is the hard part.

QFT

flywheel

Hanley wrote: »

Low carb, high protein diets have been around MUCH longer than the Atkins diet. Bodybuilders have been using the for decades to strip fat off.

the article the poster linked to specifically referenced the Atkins diet, hence my mention of it. the poster never mentioned they were a body builder or fat, my understanding was the poster initiated the thread due to their surprise about eating carbs after working out (not just protein)

Hanley wrote: »

Consulting a nutritionist really isn't neccesary imo unless you've some particular dietary requirements. Dropping fat isn't as complicated as everyone would seem to believe.

alternatively, one visit to a professional would get the poster some factual info with a lot less time and and effort than reading loads of googled articles then asking random posters for their 2 cents... imho

celestial

DubWireless wrote: »

the article the poster linked to specifically referenced the Atkins diet, hence my mention of it. the poster never mentioned they were a body builder or fat, my understanding was the poster initiated the thread due to their surprise about eating carbs after working out (not just protein)



alternatively, one visit to a professional would get the poster some factual info with a lot less time and and effort than reading loads of googled articles then asking random posters for their 2 cents... imho

But why would anyone go to a nutritionist when all the info they need - correct, reliable, time tested and proven info is all on this very forum, and on the internet, and available in as much detail as you could possibly want or need from the good people on this forum - g'em, hanley, dragan, rubadub, bossarky, boru, among others, and - i like to think - myself;)

Consulting a nutritionist isn't necessary for the average joe or josephine soap battling the bulge - I would see it more as a go-to for someone with very specific dietary requirements, maybe recovering from illness, etc!

Dragan

DubWireless wrote: »

alternatively, one visit to a professional would get the poster some factual info with a lot less time and and effort than reading loads of googled articles then asking random posters for their 2 cents... imho

Would you fork out cash to a professional for every questions and problem with a PDA or would you hit goggled yourself because your curious to find answers as opposed to just have them handed to you?

Nothing healthier than a thirst to learn and all that.

rubadub

Dragan wrote: »

Would you fork out cash to a professional for every questions and problem with a PDA or would you hit goggled yourself because your curious to find answers as opposed to just have them handed to you?

Nothing healthier than a thirst to learn and all that.

Exactly what I was thinking. I prefer finding the solution and knowing what the cause was and what fixed it, for pretty much all things.

If my PC goes in work I try and fix it, the boss always calls external IT lads. They can come and fix it but I will always ask what was wrong. Same with getting a bike or car fixed, I would ask what was wrong, what caused it, what fixed it, what should I do next time etc.

Of course a nutritionist might tell you this too, if you do insist on seeing one make sure you get more than just a diet laid out, know the reasons why.

As I was saying in another thread, just because they are "professionals" it doesnt mean they are good, or always right. They are browsing google and journals just like anybody else. Not all gym instructors are experts, a doctor could call somebody obese due to high BMI, a nutritionist might only be one since he "got the points", just as a source of revenue. Make sure they are recommended by somebody.

I always like searching forums since most posters do not have a vested interest to plug/sell something, you hear what works, not what sells.

Some people may not have the willpower to go it alone on a diet, so need a diet set out. They invest money in the nutritionist and might stick with it more. Like gym memberships. Some chronic overeaters can actually stick to the lipotrim diet, I expect they view it as medication and they must stick to it, costs a lot too.
Some need a personal trainer to drag them out of bed, some will join a team and not want to let them down.

I would find following a diet restrictive and would like to know what alternatives I could have. You see people in threads forcing down porridge, oblivious to the fact there are alternative ways to eat oats, or other alternative carbs in the morning. I would not want to have to fork out for another session with the nutritionist.

Hanley

DubWireless wrote: »

alternatively, one visit to a professional would get the poster some factual info with a lot less time and and effort than reading loads of googled articles then asking random posters for their 2 cents... imho

Factual....? I'm not sure how many nutritionists you've consulted with, or many published books/artciles you've read by "qualified" nutritionists, but good advice when it comes to muscle building/fat loss is very sparse. Could you clarify what you mean by "factual info" as well please..?

Simply put, alot of nutritionists don't know enough about the demands of weight training or hard dieting to attempt to prescribe an effective program. The majority of these guys are clinical nutritionists who are more used to dealing with specific dietary requirements based off medical issues. Of course there are good guys out there, but in my exp. there's alot more useful info to be found online, if you know where to look.

The issue I'd be concerned with is that people will start over thinking all of these things, and they waste their time concerning themselves with what is "optimal", rather than what works.

flywheel

Dragan wrote: »

Would you fork out cash to a professional for every questions and problem with a PDA or would you hit goggled yourself because your curious to find answers as opposed to just have them handed to you?

Nothing healthier than a thirst to learn and all that.

it was only a suggestion which i followed up by saying "if you don't want to go to a professional have you done a food intake diary / nutrition assessment on yourself? that would be a good starting point..."

you're right there's nothing healthier than a thirst to learn, it's the material you're using that needs to be spot on, well sourced and accurate; from the links / questions the poster seemed to be coming up with conflicting info and unattributed online articles...

if i was looking for info in relation to my health and well being, for sure i'd consider a professional over endless google searches of unattributed articles and random forum posts... never any harm in assessing one's options... which was all i suggest to the OP

flywheel

Hanley wrote: »

Could you clarify what you mean by "factual info" as well please...

my point to the OP was reading conflicting or unattributed articles / random posts on forums may not be the best way of coming up with the facts... i don't treat everything i read on the internet as fact, i'm sure you don't either...

Hanley wrote: »

The issue I'd be concerned with is that people will start over thinking all of these things, and they waste their time concerning themselves with what is "optimal", rather than what works.

i wouldn't suggest anyone waist their time, but i would suggest they use it wisely concerning themselves with that works for them, i'd have thought most people would think it fair enough that that what works for one person may not be for another (varied goals, starting points, etc.)... i don't see how suggesting various courses of action be it consulting a professional or assessing their nutrition in-depth themselves is wrong - it's their choice at the end of the day

markesmith

You guys. Sheesh! I'm no closer to understanding whether I should have carbs after a lifting workout. And if so, what carbs should they be? I'd say you've collectively turned about 15 people off this forum with this extended scholastic debate. I mean, should I eat carbs after a workout, and what carbs should they be?

thegoth

There is one thing confusing me. The genral agreement seems to be, that if your bodybuilding, you should be eating a ration of 40:40:20 protein, carbs, fats.

My question is when bodybuilders start a hight protein low carb diet, what are the results ? Will they mainly just loose body fat and still gain muscle or will they just maintain the muscle they have with no additional muscle gains and loose fat ?

I want to put on muscle but not fat, so would to correct thing for me to do to eat 40:40:20 for a while, then switch to a high protein low carb diet ?

Hanley

markesmith wrote: »

You guys. Sheesh! I'm no closer to understanding whether I should have carbs after a lifting workout. And if so, what carbs should they be? I'd say you've collectively turned about 15 people off this forum with this extended scholastic debate. I mean, should I eat carbs after a workout, and what carbs should they be?

Yes. You should. Roughly a 2:1 carbs to protein ratio. About 50-60g of carbs would probaby be a good start. They should be in the form of dextrose of glucose, which are essentially the same thing anyway.

As for the "extended scholastic debate"... I thought that was the point of discussion forums...? If you wanted a quick and easy answer you coulda just read the stickies

Hanley

thegoth wrote: »

There is one thing confusing me. The genral agreement seems to be, that if your bodybuilding, you should be eating a ration of 40:40:20 protein, carbs, fats.

My question is when bodybuilders start a hight protein low carb diet, what are the results ? Will they mainly just loose body fat and still gain muscle or will they just maintain the muscle they have with no additional muscle gains and loose fat ?

I want to put on muscle but not fat, so would to correct thing for me to do to eat 40:40:20 for a while, then switch to a high protein low carb diet ?

A high protein low carb diet will tyipcally lead to reduced bodyfat. Some people MAY gain some muscle on this, but it would usually be for 3 reasons.
1) They're eating alot more protein than they normally would
2) They're still newb-ish so they can gain muscle doing pretty much anyting
3) A new diet will normally be accompanied by a change in training. If you're chanigng it up after a long while doing the same thing you could put on muscle

Sounds to me like you'd fit in with all 3 reasons above... BUT you probably will have an easier time gaining muscle with something like 40:40:20. You shouldn't put on too much fat once you're sensible enough about it. Besides, even if you were to put on fat, an extra bit of padding for a lot more muscle is a good trade off isn't it?

dpddave

markesmith wrote: »

You guys. Sheesh! I'm no closer to understanding whether I should have carbs after a lifting workout. And if so, what carbs should they be? I'd say you've collectively turned about 15 people off this forum with this extended scholastic debate. I mean, should I eat carbs after a workout, and what carbs should they be?

Carbs are vital after weightlifting to boost insulin, take the protein ( that you should also be having after a workout aswel) to your muscles and restock glycogen stores.

If your on a low-carb diets get most of your carbs pre and post workout.

neuro-praxis

Ok, I have read this thread from start to finish and am none the wiser. Can somebody answer me straight on the issue below:

I am female, carrying several extra stone, working hard on a good diet and going to the gym 3-4 times per week. I am doing quite well and have lost 24lbs so far.

I go to the gym at night, as my gym does not open until 10am. So I get home and eat dinner around 7.30pm. I am not a low-carber but my carb portions are small-medium and always low-medium GI - 50g wholewheat pasta, 200g new potatoes, etc. This will be accompanied by a good protein and lots of steamed veg. After dinner, I hit the gym. At the gym I usually lift the heaviest weights I can manage for 25 minutes and follow it with 20 minutes of high intensity cardio. At my level of fitness this is exhausting, but my fitness levels are increasing with each session.

After the gym I usually drink a lot of water but don't eat. Should I be eating? if yes, what? Fats, proteins, carbs? My goals are fat loss and building lean muscle. If I don't eat after working out, what damage am I doing?

Hope I am not hijacking the thread - it is on the same topic.

BossArky

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I go to the gym at night, as my gym does not open until 10am. So I get home and eat dinner around 7.30pm.

After dinner, I hit the gym. At the gym I usually lift the heaviest weights I can manage for 25 minutes and follow it with 20 minutes of high intensity cardio. At my level of fitness this is exhausting, but my fitness levels are increasing with each session.

I find eating dinner before the gym a big no no if trying to do any decent cardio.

Go for a jog outdoors (no need for gym) in the mornings for 30 minutes before breakfast. This will burn fat more efficiently, as there is no food in your stomach.

If you want to do weights (in the evenings on your non jog days) there is no problem eating before hand, as long as a stuffed belly dosen't interfere with your range of motion on particular exercises.

Hanley

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I go to the gym at night, as my gym does not open until 10am. So I get home and eat dinner around 7.30pm. I am not a low-carber but my carb portions are small-medium and always low-medium GI - 50g wholewheat pasta, 200g new potatoes, etc. This will be accompanied by a good protein and lots of steamed veg. After dinner, I hit the gym. At the gym I usually lift the heaviest weights I can manage for 25 minutes and follow it with 20 minutes of high intensity cardio. At my level of fitness this is exhausting, but my fitness levels are increasing with each session.

How many grams of carbs are you eating per day? Are you still losing weight, or have you stalled?

After the gym I usually drink a lot of water but don't eat. Should I be eating? if yes, what? Fats, proteins, carbs? My goals are fat loss and building lean muscle. If I don't eat after working out, what damage am I doing?

Presumably this means you're going to bed on an empty stomach too?

Not eating after the gym and going to bed means you won't be getting any food in for a considerable amount of time. Your body will enter a starvation-esque mode, your metabolism will slow and you won't be able to recover as well. All quite alarmist, and not as severe as they sound, but still not good.

Ideally after training you'd be taking in carbs and protein straight after training. Fat will only slow their absorption. It's hard to say how much you should be taking in without knowing how many kcals you eat thru out the day , and how much you weigh. Carbs and protein in a 2:1 ratio is what's recommended. 40g of carbs/20g of protein might be a good start.

neuro-praxis

Thank you very much for the replies.

BossArky, I have attempted heading straight from work to the gym, and then getting home for dinner afterwards, but I can't complete my cardio on an empty stomach - I only manage 5 minutes or so. I used to be fit (so long ago now...) and would jog in the morning before breakfast, but I get up so early as it is for my commute now that I'm not sure I could manage much earlier. I need to make working out in the evenings work for me.

Hanley to be completely honest, I have no idea how many grams of carbs I eat in a day. I could work it out at fitday? I am using the Weight Watchers programme which I know works, but does not account for muscle gain. I have read quite a bit (here and otherwise) about carbs and have decided for myself that I want to keep them permanently in my diet, albeit from high-fibre low GI sources. Yes, I am still losing weight, I have not stalled.

As for going to bed on an empty stomach, not really. I eat dinner at approx 7.30 pm and go to bed about 3 hours later. I am not much of a snacker at night and food in my tummy before bed keeps me awake.

I am listening to you about how I should be eating after a workout. I will look at my meal plans and see what changes I can make. I still do not understand fully why I need to eat after a workout and what exactly happens if I don't?

dv6

im in the same boat, dont get back from gym until after 10pm, dont feel like eating as i am usually in bed by 11/11.30, was advised here to drink a whey protein shake to help recovery. Fat loss is also my goal so dont eat carbs after.

celestial

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I still do not understand fully why I need to eat after a workout and what exactly happens if I don't?

You get hungry:)

Seriously though, it's that simple. You'll just be hungry and this isn't ever good for your body - metabolism can slow as your body doesn't know when it's going to get food next, this can promote fat storage to safeguard against this and of course can prevent fat loss too because of that. After intense exercise this is less of a concern, as your body is in fat burning mode, but it's still not good to go hungry as the same effect can be still there.

neuro-praxis

Huh. I find exercise reduces my appetite. After a workout, food is the last thing on my mind.

justsomebloke

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I still do not understand fully why I need to eat after a workout and what exactly happens if I don't?

basically what you are doing is trying to give your body the energy it needs to help repair your muscle which you used in your workout.

Truthfully as you are carrying a few extra stone I would ignore the basis of what this thread is about i.e. getting simple carbs into you post workout, as fundamentally it really isn't going to effect you that much.

I would still suggest if possible have something at some point after your workout , I'd say a combination of some low GI carbs and some protein would be best. But if the rest of your diet is for the most point spot on I wouldn't be massively worried about it, as you are still losing weight have a balanced diet and are doing both cardio and weights. Which are pretty much the fundamentals all will probably get you to 99% of what you want without having to spend a lot of extra time worrying about getting that last 1%. However if you do want that extra 1% you can worry about it when you are nearer your goal weight.

Oh and congrats on the weight loss so far

neuro-praxis

Brilliant. Clear advice which I shall follow. Thanks all.

flywheel

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I have no idea how many grams of carbs I eat in a day...

if you can keep a log of a couple of days food intake together with some details on your daily activities, it can really help you work out if you need more/less carbs (and types of), protein, etc... if you do keep a log this is a handy little reference book to have to hand to help determine the nutritional info of loads of foods (general and branded):
Collins GEM: GI Guide, it is basically an extension of the Gem Calorie and Carb book but with GI info included too - i think it is about a fiver in Easons