Why not permit a left turn on a red light if there is no traffic coming?

Run_to_da_hills

If anyone has ever driven in the States one can turn right on a red light if there is no traffic coming after he/she has come to a complete stop. In America the "turn right on red" (RTOR) rule was introduced as a petrol saving measure in the 1970's. It is designed to avoid cars sitting at lights wasting petrol when they could safely turn and continue on their way.

(I believe some states in Australia permit you to turn right). Certain roads may not permit this and will have a sign up. Why can they not do the same in Ireland and save on fuel and ease up alott of congestion in the capital, even a flashing red light??. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red

http://www.johncletheroe.org/usa_can/driving/right.htm

astraboy

Works very effectively in the US from my experience, means you don't have to stay plonked at a junction for 5 mins with no opposing traffic while the lights change. Of course there would be chaos here if introduced, people whinging on Joe Duffy about not knowing what to do, huge increase in fatalities, the fall of society etc etc. Maybe in 20 years when Irish people learn how to use a motorway.......:D

crosstownk

There's always the possibilty that there is a 'green man' lit for pedestrians to your left......not always but it is possible. There are a lot of flashing amber arrows at junctions.

dr.bollocko

In australia its allowed, and even in the case as crosstownk said, that there is a green man. Essentially the pedestrians have right of way and the driver waits for a break to continue the left turn. It just makes sense. The first time I saw it was like a revelation to me. I must write to Gay Byrne. He is the real powerholder in this situation

chris85

crosstownk wrote: »

There's always the possibilty that there is a 'green man' lit for pedestrians to your left......not always but it is possible. There are a lot of flashing amber arrows at junctions.

This happens in america, you are still able to turn but must give way to any pedestrians when doing so

I would like to see this system over here.

One more thing I would like was if ALL traffic lights went amber just before turning green so traffic would be ready to go when light goes green. Works well up north

Oilrig

While you're at it you might suggest that they also introduce the amber before green sequence to traffic lights, makes things move so much better...

(was typing this at the same time as chris85...)

mickdw

Ya it makes sense.

dr.bollocko

That is a good idea too. In times of heavy traffic, to have the amber as a warning would prevent the person who takes their time to take off at a green

granturismo

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Essentially the pedestrians have right of way and the driver waits for a break to continue the left turn.

I think this is the reason we cant have 'turn left on red' in Ireland - because more than a few drivers dont know what the flashing orange light at pedestrian crossings are for, some even think that red lights for traffic at ped crossings means press the accelerator before the little walking man turns green. These drivers wont bother looking left at a traffic light to check for peds.

Imagine the chaos if we introduced the '4 way stop'? These work so well in the US. Yellow boxes are for stopping in, whose going to wait their turn at a 4 way cross.

TychoCaine

A guy I used to know from Korea turned left at a red light (it's legal there too) on his first week in Limerick. There was a squad car behind that pulled him straight away. He did the "me speakee no englishee" thing and got away with it

smemon

The problem is simple - we don't have the width and space to do this.

It would be easier to plonk a roundabout where every set of traffic lights is

Andrewf20

granturismo wrote: »

I think this is the reason we cant have 'turn left on red' in Ireland - because more than a few drivers dont know what the flashing orange light at pedestrian crossings are for, some even think that red lights for traffic at ped crossings means press the accelerator before the little walking man turns green. These drivers wont bother looking left at a traffic light to check for peds.

We can teach the drivers about these changes. If some drivers cant learn these changes and drive safely, then they shouldnt be on the road. I think it would be great to have it here. They should at least try it out on some junctions, iron out any problems and go from there. I had to "learn" about these rules when I went to the States, and after doing a 2 or 3 times, I was up to speed with how it worked.

D_murph

TychoCaine wrote: »

A guy I used to know from Korea turned left at a red light (it's legal there too) on his first week in Limerick. There was a squad car behind that pulled him straight away. He did the "me speakee no englishee" thing and got away with it

lol

id say it would cause more than a few accidents here all right though. a lot of people who cant drive properly anyway would do wreck with it.

"so i dont have to stop at red lights if im going left so eh? cool."

*turns out into oncoming traffic or mows a pedestrian down.*

"oops, sorry ".

if you think it wouldnt happen, someone will always prove you wrong

deceit

in germany this is allowed and you can skip the green man if there is no one crossing

cyclopath2001

Andrewf20 wrote: »

We can teach the drivers about these changes. If some drivers cant learn these changes and drive safely, then they shouldnt be on the road. I think it would be great to have it here. They should at least try it out on some junctions, iron out any problems and go from there. I had to "learn" about these rules when I went to the States, and after doing a 2 or 3 times, I was up to speed with how it worked.

Bless your optimism. This is Ireland and our drivers are 'special'. At the first sign of any attempt to enforce the law, they'd be screaming 'Revenue Generation Exercise'.

colm_mcm

to be fair, drivers in Ireland take the p1ss with amber lights before red as it is.
amber before green would simply mean the drivers going in one direction would go as soon as the amber light shows, and the drivers crossing them would keep going 2 seconds after the red light comes up.
it's risky enough taking off on a green light in Dublin, you have to watch out for people breaking the lights. I've no problem being aware of traffic around me, but I shouldn't have to constantly be watching out for muppets who want to save 30 seconds by breaking a red light.

High&Low

In Ireland (Dublin anyway) the lights are set in a way to slow down traffic to encourage people not to drive. Being allowed to turn left on a red light when there is no traffic could possibly reduce congestion, therefore it will never be allowed.

Sherifu

It's allowed here in Romania, there are no problem's with it.

Victor_M

granturismo wrote: »

I think this is the reason we cant have 'turn left on red' in Ireland - because more than a few drivers dont know what the flashing orange light at pedestrian crossings are for, some even think that red lights for traffic at ped crossings means press the accelerator before the little walking man turns green. These drivers wont bother looking left at a traffic light to check for peds.

Imagine the chaos if we introduced the '4 way stop'? These work so well in the US. Yellow boxes are for stopping in, whose going to wait their turn at a 4 way cross.

+1 Exactly what I was going to say.

Lack of driver education/discipline & Lack of Garda enforcement would see the left on red and 4 way stops end up in carnage and mayhem.

It always amazes me in the US to see the first in first out system at the 4 way stops working so fluidly.

kmick

Agreed but I can see a situation where cars will keep going through even though there are pedestrians crossing. As will the cyclists. There is no enforcement of any rules by the Gardai so it wont work here.

mikemac

We kinda have it already, drivers are turning left on red lights every day.

How many times do you get drivers who see the straight ahead filter arrow turn left and right and send pedestrians scattering who were crossing with the green man. Do drivers understand a straight ahead arrow is not the same as a green light?

Don’t take my word for it, read this recent thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055239322

Tony Danza

Driving over in America is much more relaxed. Over here everybody seems to be more aggressive, or more in a rush to get to where they want to be, so most people bend the rules to their advantage. That's just my observation. So I don't think it would work well over here. Plus I think we have bigger problems with the roads than waiting for a green light.

craichoe

In Holland and Belgium you can turn right on a green but pedrestrians also have a green and have right of way.

juvenal

In theory it’s a good idea in the US, and for the most part it works there.

However here in Ireland there are a number of factors that make it far more difficult to introduce;

A lot or suburban/rural major roads in the US are dual carriage way, and they also converge at ninety-degree angles, i.e. crossroads. The turning right on red (it would be left here in Ireland) is easier for motorists there because the density of traffic is light in many parts of the US (outside of major cities), and also because of the distinct lack of pedestrians on these roads. The fact that many junctions are straight crossroads means that visibility of oncoming traffic is greater, and if you see a pedestrian crossing the road at one of these typical junctions it’s a rare sight indeed. In this instance the pedestrian always has the right of way if he has a green man.

Here’s an example of the type of road I’m talking about http://www.southeastroads.com/florida010/us-029_nb_at_cr-453_nt.jpg

I lived there for several years, and still hold a US driving license, and have driven extensively in all parts of the country. To say that the entire US allows this is false. For example you cannot turn right on red in New York City, which makes sense as the volume of pedestrian traffic is far greater than in your normal US town in the south or midwest.

Other factors are the absolute enforcement of laws on the US roads. Try telling a State Trooper than you “forgot your license” and you’ll drop it into the station within seven days and watch his reaction You might get away with it by using a bit of blarney and the Oirish accent, but generally you’ll be accompanying him to jail for the night. Despite the many problems with US driving standards, the motor vehicle is such an integral part of every way of life that it’s use is held in far more respect than here in Europe. Driving is treated as a privilege, not as a right as many people here seem to think it is.

The lack of enforcement of the authorities here coupled with society’s resistance to the strict application of driving laws is IMO the biggest stumbling block to making our roads safer and more efficient.

Victor

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

(I believe some states in Australia permit you to turn right). Certain roads may not permit this and will have a sign up. Why can they not do the same in Ireland and save on fuel and ease up alott of congestion in the capital, even a flashing red light??. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red http://www.johncletheroe.org/usa_can/driving/right.htm

Be very careful. I suspect you are only allowed do it where it is specificly allowed, not the other way around.

High&Low wrote: »

In Ireland (Dublin anyway) the lights are set in a way to slow down traffic to encourage people not to drive.

Eh, no. All traffic lights are there for the convenience of motorists.

whizzbangmcgui

Most Irish drivers don't respect the fact that they are essentially in charge of killing machines. they don't learn how to drive correctly, they only learn how to pass the driving test, and then it's whoopeeeee.....

that's why these systems won't work in Ireland.

Most other European countries have much more common sense, reasonable traffic laws, and more respectful, courteous drivers. But Irish drivers would surely abuse these laws. It's the inbred "I don't follow the rules of the establishment" way of thinking that goes on here. Just look at Bertie and his troubles, and he's the country's great leader who's supposed to be setting the tone for everyone (and I don't mean his driving practices).

Has anyone ever stood and watched the traffic on the Arc De Triumph roundabout in Paris? It's a sight to behold: 5 unmarked lanes of traffic all getting where they want to go. If it was in Ireland, there would be an accident every 20 seconds.

Also, you don't have to go too far North of the border to see a marked difference in the standard of driving.

Any thoughts? Am I completely off the mark?


W.

Steve

Victor wrote: »

Eh, no. All traffic lights are there for the convenience of motorists.

Can't see how you justify that - the amount of times I've sat at a junction staring at a red light with no traffic moving while there is a right turn filter lit up for the opposite lane with no traffic??? The traffic sensing technology has been around for >20 years now, why can't it be used here??

Victor

I didn't say it worked.

Max_Damage

I was thinking there earlier while stuck in traffic, that it would be a great idea to introduce the system like they have in America, to turn left at a red light provided the way is clear. It seems to work well over in the States, and it would definitely reduce the amount of traffic on the roads.

I think an e-mail to the department of transport is in order now.

Run_to_da_hills

Beat you to it.

Mods Merge threads !!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055241412&highlight=turn+left+on+red

Max_Damage

Damn, missed that!

cyclopath2001

Max_Damage wrote: »

I was thinking there earlier while stuck in traffic, that it would be a great idea to introduce the system like they have in America, to turn left at a red light provided the way is clear. It seems to work well over in the States, and it would definitely reduce the amount of traffic on the roads. .

It certainly works well in the USA, part of the deal is that motorists must give way to pedestrians in the junction they are turning into, which, to my surprise, they did, even the taxi drivers.

peasant

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Beat you to it.

Mods Merge threads !!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055241412&highlight=turn+left+on+red

threads merged

happy ?

Don't do that again with a two months old thread (that's like bronze-age on the motors forum timeline ) or I'll have you for backseat modding, ok ?

Sherifu

peasant wrote: »

threads merged

happy ?

Ecstatic

bigtimecharlie

chris85 wrote: »

One more thing I would like was if ALL traffic lights went amber just before turning green so traffic would be ready to go when light goes green. Works well up north

+1

Run_to_da_hills

chris85 wrote:

One more thing I would like was if ALL traffic lights went amber just before turning green so traffic would be ready to go when light goes green. Works well up north

Not down here, just like the flashing pelican lights idiots down here will treat it like a license to put the boot down if the coast is clear :eek:.

MrPudding

I personally don't think left on red would work in Ireland. Many Irish drivers have so little for red lights as it is, to tell them it is ok to ignore them sometimes would be a bad thing to do.

Additionally, as other have pointed out, we have a lot more footpaths and therefore more road / path junctions. This raises an additional problem, protection of pedestrians crossing the road.

I think rather than left on red they should just make the "left with caution" flashing amber more wide spread. This would allow a red light, which should not be passed by the way folks, to allow a safe crossing period while the green man is on. At other times the light could be flashing amber allowing cars to turn left when safe.

As for amber beofre green? That would be carnage. I would love to see it. Nothing give me more pleasure than seeing a red light runner getting t-boned, but there would be so many accidents. Besides, I heard a guy from the council years ago saying they would never do it for this reason. Besides, it would speed traffic up. Do they not have a policy of trying to slow it down?

MrP

bonkey

MrPudding wrote: »

As for amber beofre green? That would be carnage. I would love to see it. Nothing give me more pleasure than seeing a red light runner getting t-boned, but there would be so many accidents. Besides, I heard a guy from the council years ago saying they would never do it for this reason. Besides, it would speed traffic up. Do they not have a policy of trying to slow it down?

Amber before green improves traffic flow, it doesn't speed traffic up. You can actually improve flow and slow traffic at the same time...counterintuitive thought it may sound.

As for any problems with pedestrian crossings, I advocate the Swiss approach. If a driver is caught not giving pedestrians right of way when he should (and most ped.crossings here don't have lights at all), then he loses his license for a period of time.

Of course, as with all things, such measures are only effective when the traffic laws are policed. Until Ireland learns that nugget, any hope for improvement is little more than wishful thinking.

WHITE_P

It does work well in the states, but given that most Irish drivers are incapable of turnig right on a full green light even when there is no oncoming traffic, I couldn't see it working here and would only add to the fustration of drivers who would be aware of it.

Run_to_da_hills

WHITE_P wrote: »

It does work well in the states, but given that most Irish drivers are incapable of turnig right on a full green light even when there is no oncoming traffic, I couldn't see it working here and would only add to the fustration of drivers who would be aware of it.

The other option is a flashing red light with an arrow on it.

faceman

I dont think it would work here given some of the atrocious standards of driving we see in ireland.

I wonder how many times we would pick up the paper to hear of someone mowed down cos a driver failed to slow down while approaching the red light to turn left.

Dirty-Old-Man

Max_Damage wrote: »

I was thinking there earlier while stuck in traffic, that it would be a great idea to introduce the system like they have in America, to turn left at a red light provided the way is clear. It seems to work well over in the States, and it would definitely reduce the amount of traffic on the roads.

I think an e-mail to the department of transport is in order now.

And for the first month of operation, put armed Gardai beside the lights with orders to shoot anyone running the red light or turning in front of traffic.

Cormic

I got hit by a taxi in San Francisco because I had a "Green Man" but he did not see that he just turned right and hit me. The f**cker drove off as well.

WHITE_P

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The other option is a flashing red light with an arrow on it.

Most of them are confused enough already, I think this would overload their poor little brains.

astraboy

I've seen it work quite well in the US, and I drove through many parts of it and had an hour each-way commute for 9 months! However, it would require Irish drivers to be fully informed about the change and also the current rules, many are completely ignorant on how to use a roundabout or take off from the lights in time without holding everyone up for 20 seconds.

A total change in the driving culture would be required, and that is something that is not going to happen overnight. It works in the US because everyone has been doing it since their driver-ed classes in High school, another issue I think needs to be addressed in the road safety debate.

cyclopath2001

astraboy wrote: »

IIt works in the US because everyone has been doing it since their driver-ed classes in High school

Or maybe because some pedestrians carry guns!

astraboy

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Or maybe because some pedestrians carry guns!

Good point! The drivers carry them in their glovebox though!:D

MrPudding

bonkey wrote: »

Amber before green improves traffic flow, it doesn't speed traffic up. You can actually improve flow and slow traffic at the same time...counterintuitive thought it may sound.

I understand what you mean.... I was not making a distinction between the two, I don't think DCC do either.

bonkey wrote: »

As for any problems with pedestrian crossings, I advocate the Swiss approach. If a driver is caught not giving pedestrians right of way when he should (and most ped.crossings here don't have lights at all), then he loses his license for a period of time.

Sometimes I think the Swiss go a bit too far..... But I think this is OK.

bonkey wrote: »

Of course, as with all things, such measures are only effective when the traffic laws are policed. Until Ireland learns that nugget, any hope for improvement is little more than wishful thinking.

And here we have it. I hate it when people are screaming for new laws to curb this and combat that. How about a bit of enforcement of the existing laws and see where that gets us.

MrP

cyclopath2001

MrPudding wrote: »

Sometimes I think the Swiss go a bit too far..... But I think this is OK.

It's been a few years since I drove i Switzerland, but I always thought it very sensible the way traffic lights on main roads were switched to flashing amber (in all directions) in the evening.

pow wow

Cormic wrote: »

I got hit by a taxi in San Francisco because I had a "Green Man" but he did not see that he just turned right and hit me. The f**cker drove off as well.

+1

When I lived in the US, jumping out of the way of cars 'giving way to pedestrians while turning right on red' was almost a daily occurrence. With driving as bad as it is here anyway, I wouldn't be for giving bad drivers yet another reason to whack pedestrians down, zebra crossings are enough.