Baptism merely symbolic?

kelly1

Hello,

It's time for another challenge to my fellow Christians! This time I'd like to discuss the claim by many that baptism is purely symbolic.

The verses below clearly show that baptism is necessary for salvation as is faith. In baptism the stain of original sin is washed away as we die and rise again with Christ and are given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (remission of sins through baptism)

mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned. (both are required to be saved)

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (We are born again through baptism)

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name. (again remission of sins)

1 Peter 3:21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: (salvific power of baptism)

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.

I'd be interested to know therefore why people claim that baptism is merely symbolic? It's not the water that washes away sin but the action of the Holy Spirit in the soul.

Thoughts?

God bless,
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." -Mark 16:16

Mark 16:16 is one of the most misinterpreted Scriptures in the Word of God. Religions such as the Church of Christ, Lutherans, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Russian Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and so many others all require that a person be baptized in order to go to heaven. This heresy is known as "Baptismal Regeneration." The Bible condemns such ADDING to the simple plan of salvation.

The Word of God is clear that salvation is obtained simply by believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ ("And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. -Acts 16:30,31).


Mark 16:16 confuses people who don't read the rest of the Bible. Mark 16:16 is brought to light when compared with 1st Corinthians 1:17. "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."


At first glance, Mark 16:16 appears to teach that a person needs to be baptized to be saved; however, when compared with the rest of the Bible, it is clear that salvation is of the heart. Salvation is of God, NOT man.

Baptism is simply a public demonstration of the inner work of regeneration, nothing more. Martin Luther in his Small Catechism clearly states that "Baptism is not just plain water." That's a lie! Baptism no more makes you a Christians than a wedding ring would make a woman married.

Just because a man finds a Garda badge doesn't automatically make him a cop. Baptism is simply an ordinance that our Lord started in the New Testament church; but it is an act of discipleship, not salvation.

kelly1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." -Mark 16:16

Mark 16:16 is one of the most misinterpreted Scriptures in the Word of God. Religions such as the Church of Christ, Lutherans, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Russian Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and so many others all require that a person be baptized in order to go to heaven. This heresy is known as "Baptismal Regeneration." The Bible condemns such ADDING to the simple plan of salvation.

The Word of God is clear that salvation is obtained simply by believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ ("And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. -Acts 16:30,31).

I'm not adding anything to scripture. Mark 16:16 clearly states that faith AND baptism are required for salvation. How can you read it any other way? Nobody is adding to the simple plan of salvation by saying that baptism is required.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Mark 16:16 confuses people who don't read the rest of the Bible. Mark 16:16 is brought to light when compared with 1st Corinthians 1:17. "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

I must admit I find 1 Cor 1:17 confusing in light of:

Mt 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

I've no idea why Paul wasn't sent to be baptized. But I intend to find out.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

At first glance, Mark 16:16 appears to teach that a person needs to be baptized to be saved; however, when compared with the rest of the Bible, it is clear that salvation is of the heart. Salvation is of God, NOT man.

What is clear from other passages in scripture is that baptism erases sin (see my quotes in the OP). BTW, I didn't claim that salvation is from man. What I said was the baptism washes away sin by the action of the Holy Spirit.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Baptism is simply a public demonstration of the inner work of regeneration, nothing more. Martin Luther in his Small Catechism clearly states that "Baptism is not just plain water." That's a lie! Baptism no more makes you a Christians than a wedding ring would make a woman married.

If you actually look at those verses I quoted, you'll see that baptism erases sin and gives one the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

Basically I think you're ignoring parts of scripture that don't fit with your beliefs. Please read my original quotes again with an open mind i.e. with no preconceived notions of what baptism is.

God bless,
Noel.

philologos

It's a sacrament kelly1, an outward physical sign of an inward physical motion. Indeed baptism is not symbolic.

Run_to_da_hills

Jakkass wrote: »

It's a sacrament kelly1, an outward physical sign of an inward physical motion. Indeed baptism is not symbolic.

Show me that in the Bible! Show me where baptism is a sacrament! The word "sacrament" is NOT even found in the Bible. The dictionary defines sacrament as, "a formal religious act conferring a specific grace on those who receive it." What "grace" is conferred upon us by being baptized? Clearly, the word "sacrament" is a dangerous and unscriptural word.

Too many religions today have baptism on the brain, and have perverted the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ by sinfully requiring baptism for salvation. You do NOT have to be baptized to go to Heaven. There is NO grace bestowed upon anyone by being baptized. Getting baptized will just get you wet!

kelly1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Show me that in the Bible! Show me where baptism is a sacrament! The word "sacrament" is NOT even found in the Bible.

Neither is the word Trinity found. Does that mean the Holy Trinity is a fabrication?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The dictionary defines sacrament as, "a formal religious act conferring a specific grace on those who receive it." What "grace" is conferred upon us by being baptized? Clearly, the word "sacrament" is a dangerous and unscriptural word.

Sanctifying grace is conferred in baptism. It's what gives the soul divine life through the Holy Spirit.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Too many religions today have baptism on the brain, and have perverted the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ by sinfully requiring baptism for salvation. You do NOT have to be baptized to go to Heaven. There is NO grace bestowed upon anyone by being baptized. Getting baptized will just get you wet!

RTDH, did you read the verses I quote in the first post? If you did, do you still deny that baptism cleanses us of sin? Why do you deny that baptism is required for salvation when it clearly says so in Mark 16:16? Did Mark get it wrong?

God bless,
Noel.

philologos

RTDH: What do you make of John 3? When Jesus says to Nicodemus that one must be born again of water and the Spirit.

What is the purpose of baptism then?

Run_to_da_hills

Jakkass wrote: »

RTDH: What do you make of John 3? When Jesus says to Nicodemus that one must be born again of water and the Spirit.

What is the purpose of baptism then?

Every baby born this planet since the time of Adam has been "born of water" while leaving the womb in their natural birth, I doubt if Jesus is referring to the sprinkling of a babies head with a spoon of ordinary tap water!!

kelly1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Every baby born this planet since the time of Adam has been "born of water" while leaving the womb in their natural birth, I doubt if Jesus is referring to the sprinkling of a babies head with a spoon of ordinary tap water!!

It's BORN AGAIN which clearly doesn't refer to physical birth.

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Try again

philologos

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Every baby born this planet since the time of Adam has been "born of water" while leaving the womb in their natural birth, I doubt if Jesus is referring to the sprinkling of a babies head with a spoon of ordinary tap water!!

Firstly, there are many means of baptism available. For example in the Church of Ireland you can choose to be baptised at the font, or you can have an immersed baptism.

"ordinary tap water" - Hmm, infact they use water from the River Jordan in my church, comes bottled. However any source of water is applicable yes if it is blessed in the name of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Nevyn

From my point of view it is a stamp on the baby's soul and energetic connection to it's family members in Christ ( which is nice to have the baptism as part of a Sunday service, so welcoming the child into the community ). It is an initiation into Christianity which is done at the behest of the parents who undertake oaths to raise the child as Christian.

It is not just symbolic to my mind due to those processes.

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello,

It's time for another challenge to my fellow Christians! This time I'd like to discuss the claim by many that baptism is purely symbolic.

The verses below clearly show that baptism is necessary for salvation as is faith. In baptism the stain of original sin is washed away as we die and rise again with Christ and are given the gift of the Holy Spirit.



I'd be interested to know therefore why people claim that baptism is merely symbolic? It's not the water that washes away sin but the action of the Holy Spirit in the soul.

Thoughts?

God bless,
Noel.

Romans 10:6-13

"But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above,) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

No mention of baptism there.


Let's imagine that you were never baptised i.e. submerged in water, that is what the word means and you are caught out in a desert place hundreds of miles from any water and you are with the one of the Apostles and he's been preaching to you for hours and the light shines on you and you believe the story about Jesus and now you want to be baptised. But there is no water around in the desert and you are desperate to be baptised and you die in the search. Before you died you believed in your heart that Jesus is Lord and proclaimed it unto the Lord with your voice. Do you think God will bar you from entry to heaven because you weren't baptised? If so then why was the thief on the cross allowed in when he wasn't baptised?

Look baptism is ok and I believe it should be done as an act of faith because it symbolises what is really going on from God's point of view when you do act in faith on His promises. When you go under the water you are dying with Christ and when you come up you are raised with Him in new life. This is merely symbolic of what is really going on from a heavenly perspective. When you trust in the Lord you are seen as dead with Christ and raised with Christ, when you get baptised you are acknowledging this in faith action but the baptism is not what cleans you, rather it’s the spirit in you because of the act of faith on the Word.

Here's an interesting I story I heard one time. Jesus was going around healing people of their blindness. The first time He did it He spat on the ground and made a paste and put it on the blind man's eyes and healed him. Some of the witnesses to this were amazed and set up a Church that they called the “Spit and be healed church”. The second time Jesus healed a man who was blind He just touch the man’s eyes and he was healed. Again this prompted some who saw to start a Church and they called that church the “Touch and be healed Church”. Lastly Jesus healed yet another man of his blindness by merely speaking to the man that his blindness be healed and he was healed of his blindness which again prompted more witnesses to set up the “Speak and be healed Church”.

So as time went by all the different churches were going around healing people of their blindness in the various methods that they had employed until the “Spit and be healed Church” seen the “Touch and be healed Church” and proclaimed them false healers because you can only spit and be healed not touch and be healed. The “Touch and be healed Church” said no you are the false healers because you can only touch and be healed and they argued all day until they both seen the “Speak and be healed Church” not spitting and healing or touching and healing but only speaking and healing and both attacked the “Speak and be healed Church” because they could not be true healers because you can only touch and be healed or spit and be healed. And on this went until they all stopped healing people and just focused on attacking the others and pointing out that the others were wrong and that only their method of healing was right.

The three methods employed are all valid but the problem lay in the fact that they all believed that only their method was valid and as a result nobody was healed anymore.

Sound familiar?

Baptism is a valid act of faith and should be done as such but it should not be worn as a badge of salvation and used as a club to beat others into the kingdom. That is same type of thing that Paul had to contended with in the Galatian Church. The Jewish Christians from Jerusalem were compelling the gentile Christians in Galatia to be circumcised other wise they could not be Christians. Paul called them false brethren brought in unawares to spy out their liberty in Christ. If someone becomes a Christian let them get baptised in their own time when they are ready, don’t stop them in their faith because they are not baptised. But like I said when you do do it, it is merely symbolic of what is really happening to you from the heavenly perspective.

Run_to_da_hills

kelly1 wrote: »

It's BORN AGAIN which clearly doesn't refer to physical birth.

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Try again

You are born the first time of water at birth, you are "born again" in spirit when you become a new convert. This is the free gift from God to those that ask for it.

Nicodemus had difficulty comprehending this one when he asked Christ in John 3vs4, "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus replied , "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (Natural Birth) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You are born the first time of water at birth, you are "born again" in spirit when you become a new convert. This is the free gift from God to those that ask for it.

Nicodemus had difficulty comprehending this one when he asked Christ in John 3vs4, "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus replied , "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (Natural Birth) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Are you suggesting that Jesus was clarifying that someone had to be physically born in the first place before they can be saved?

Because that seems unlikely. Who is not born of water (physically born)?

BrianCalgary

Acts 2

36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Peters response is to the question; what shall we do?
Peter answers; repent and be baptised. Step one is to repent, step two is be baptised.

The next phrase; for the forgiveness of sins refers to repentance and the next and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit refers to teh baptism bit.

Baptism is an act of obedience where, according to this discourse, teh Holy Spirit imparts His gifts on teh believer.

From personal experience, I certainly did have teh Holy Spirit come upon me when I was baptised as an adult about 10 years ago. It is at that time that my ministry really began to show fruit.

Baptism - symbolic? No way, a response to your faith where the Holy Spirit bestows His gifts upon you.

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

Romans 10:6-13

..... For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

No mention of baptism there.

Are you also going to ignore John 3:5 and Mark 16:16? It's there in black and white. Baptism is required for salvation (because it erases the guilt of original sin).

Soul Winner wrote: »

Let's imagine that you were never baptised i.e. submerged in water, that is what the word means and you are caught out in a desert place hundreds of miles from any water and you are with the one of the Apostles and he's been preaching to you for hours and the light shines on you and you believe the story about Jesus and now you want to be baptised. But there is no water around in the desert and you are desperate to be baptised and you die in the search. Before you died you believed in your heart that Jesus is Lord and proclaimed it unto the Lord with your voice. Do you think God will bar you from entry to heaven because you weren't baptised? If so then why was the thief on the cross allowed in when he wasn't baptised?

God is not bound by His own sacraments. God allows for baptism by desire and baptism by blood (in the case of martyrs). The water is only symbolic but the action of the Holy Spirit in the soul cleanses it of sin and makes us just in the sight of God.

Soul Winner wrote: »

When you trust in the Lord you are seen as dead with Christ and raised with Christ, when you get baptised you are acknowledging this in faith action but the baptism is not what cleans you, rather it’s the spirit in you because of the act of faith on the Word.

Baptism cleanses by the Holy Spirit. The water is an outward sign of the inner cleansing.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Baptism is a valid act of faith and should be done as such but it should not be worn as a badge of salvation and used as a club to beat others into the kingdom. That is same type of thing that Paul had to contended with in the Galatian Church. The Jewish Christians from Jerusalem were compelling the gentile Christians in Galatia to be circumcised other wise they could not be Christians. Paul called them false brethren brought in unawares to spy out their liberty in Christ. If someone becomes a Christian let them get baptised in their own time when they are ready, don’t stop them in their faith because they are not baptised. But like I said when you do do it, it is merely symbolic of what is really happening to you from the heavenly perspective.

Baptism is more than an act of faith as can be seen is Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16. Do you not accept that baptism washes away sins?

BrianCalgary

Acts 22

14"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

This is Ananias speaking to Saul.

The first part of verse 16 gives the command to get up and be baptised. The second part is to call on His name for the washing away of sins.

I really feel that I am really cutting hairs here.

Salvation come by faith through the grace of God. Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

As a result of God's grace one would be baptised.

There are many verses in the NT that cover the idea that one is saved through faith in Jesus Christ.

Taken as a whole it is necessary to reconcile the act of baptism into that truth.

Baptism then becomes an act of obedience whereby the Holy Spirit imparts His gifts.

kelly1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You are born the first time of water at birth, you are "born again" in spirit when you become a new convert. This is the free gift from God to those that ask for it.

Nicodemus had difficulty comprehending this one when he asked Christ in John 3vs4, "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus replied , "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (Natural Birth) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

It says "born again of water", not "born of water". You can't be born again from the womb, can you? You're changing the words of the Gospel now!

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

Are you also going to ignore John 3:5 and Mark 16:16? It's there in black and white. Baptism is required for salvation (because it erases the guilt of original sin).

No I'm not. Baptism is very important but its not to be forced on infants or anyoe else. Its a free act of faith.

kelly1 wrote: »

God is not bound by His own sacraments. God allows for baptism by desire and baptism by blood (in the case of martyrs). The water is only symbolic but the action of the Holy Spirit in the soul cleanses it of sin and makes us just in the sight of God.

kelly1 wrote: »

Baptism cleanses by the Holy Spirit. The water is an outward sign of the inner cleansing.

The water is symbolic of the Spirit like oil was in the Old Testament. And being baptised is symbolic of dying and raising with Christ.

kelly1 wrote: »

Baptism is more than an act of faith as can be seen is Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16. Do you not accept that baptism washes away sins?

You cannot do anything more than act in faith. The blood of Christ is what washes away our sins not water baptism. If there was no blood poured out on the cross then baptism would have no meaning or power. That is why it is symbolic. There is nothing wrong with it being symbolic it just means that it points to a real working truth in reality. Just like the bread and wine are symbolic but when partaken off worthily there is power released from God to forgive sins and to be healed. And also like the way God justifies us by faith in His Word as apposed to works of the Law. When we act in faith on God’s Word God justifies us, which means He sees us as “just like” Christ the same way He seen Christ as “just like” us when he poured out His wrath on Him on the cross. If He had not done that then nobody would have been saved or would be able to be saved even if you were baptised a million times. Because God said for sin comes death and for Him to be faithful to His Word and save us at the same time death had to occur somewhere, either on Adam and his descendants or on the vicarious sacrifice, else God could not say that He is a faithful to His Word kind of God. Why do you think Satan entered Peter to stop Jesus going to the cross? Satan didn’t want Jesus to die. He did everything in His power to stop it including offering Him all the Kingdoms of the earth. Satan the great accuser of eternity accuses us day and night to God because of our short fallen condition. And he is right and God knows he is right so for God to save us and be faithful to His Word He had to deal with sin. Get rid of it, and He did, in Christ. So not anymore can Satan accuse us because Christ defeated him on Calvary. And anyone claiming a promise of God in faith will be seen as just like Christ even though we are in fact still sinners in sinning flesh. But God empowers us unto salvation by His Spirit through our faith in His Son. Nobody else could have done what Jesus did because to do it meant you’d have to have the means to do it, which meant you had to have a perfect life. He alone lived the required perfect life in the flesh and therefore only He could offer the sacrifice.

Christ died on the cross providing forgiveness to all who will accept it. Part of the accepting is to be immersed in water and raising again which is symbolic of what Christ did but just because I say it is symbolic does not mean I don’t believe that the Spirit will not come on you through it. It will, like any other act of faith based on a promise of God. That’s all being baptised is, an act of faith based on the Word but there are many promises of God that allow you to be just as saved. You just have to act on them. I was baptised many years ago but if I loose faith today I’m as lost as I was before I got baptised. My baptism will in no wise stand me in good with God if I loose faith today.

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

Baptism is very important but its not to be forced on infants or anyone else. Its a free act of faith.

Why is baptism important if it's only symbolic?

Soul Winner wrote: »

You cannot do anything more than act in faith. The blood of Christ is what washes away our sins not water baptism. If there was no blood poured out on the cross then baptism would have no meaning or power. That is why it is symbolic. There is nothing wrong with it being symbolic it just means that it points to a real working truth in reality.

OK, I understand where you're coming from now.

I'm saying that baptism is only effective *because* of Christ's death on the cross. During baptism the merits of Christs blood are applied to the soul via the action of the Holy Spirit. Without Christ's death on the cross, baptism would be useless. If you read Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16, you'll see that baptism is (one of) the means by which the soul is cleansed of sin. Christ effectively has won for us an infinite store of merit from which the Church has the authority to draw on.

Soul Winner wrote: »

And also like the way God justifies us by faith in His Word as apposed to works of the Law. When we act in faith on God’s Word God justifies us, which means He sees us as “just like” Christ the same way He seen Christ as “just like” us when he poured out His wrath on Him on the cross. If He had not done that then nobody would have been saved or would be able to be saved even if you were baptised a million times. Because God said for sin comes death and for Him to be faithful to His Word and save us at the same time death had to occur somewhere, either on Adam and his descendants or on the vicarious sacrifice, else God could not say that He is a faithful to His Word kind of God. Why do you think Satan entered Peter to stop Jesus going to the cross? Satan didn’t want Jesus to die. He did everything in His power to stop it including offering Him all the Kingdoms of the earth. Satan the great accuser of eternity accuses us day and night to God because of our short fallen condition. And he is right and God knows he is right so for God to save us and be faithful to His Word He had to deal with sin. Get rid of it, and He did, in Christ. So not anymore can Satan accuse us because Christ defeated him on Calvary. And anyone claiming a promise of God in faith will be seen as just like Christ even though we are in fact still sinners in sinning flesh. But God empowers us unto salvation by His Spirit through our faith in His Son. Nobody else could have done what Jesus did because to do it meant you’d have to have the means to do it, which meant you had to have a perfect life. He alone lived the required perfect life in the flesh and therefore only He could offer the sacrifice.

I mostly agree with this. I think where we differ is in how salvific merits of Christ are applied to us. You say it's faith alone and I say that in infants baptism suffices, while for those above the age of reason, faith and baptism are required.

I would also say that Christ's sacrifice was of infinite value because of His infinite dignity which He posessed due to the union of His human nature with the divine nature. But I digress...

Soul Winner wrote: »

Christ died on the cross providing forgiveness to all who will accept it. Part of the accepting is to be immersed in water and raising again which is symbolic of what Christ did but just because I say it is symbolic does not mean I don’t believe that the Spirit will not come on you through it. It will, like any other act of faith based on a promise of God. That’s all being baptised is, an act of faith based on the Word but there are many promises of God that allow you to be just as saved. You just have to act on them. I was baptised many years ago but if I loose faith today I’m as lost as I was before I got baptised. My baptism will in no wise stand me in good with God if I loose faith today.

Again we disagree on the manner in which we are justified. How are people who are incapable of making an act of faith to be saved? e.g. infants who die young and mentally retarded people?

At least we both agree that salvation is only possible because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

God bless,
Noel.

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

It says "born again of water", not "born of water". You can't be born again from the womb, can you? You're changing the words of the Gospel now!

No it doesn't say that at all. It says "born of water".

I believe that the phrase "born of water" refers to physical birth. Jesus is saying to Nicodemus, "You must be born again. You need not only to be born of water (ie your first physical birth) but also by the spirit."

I can see how Catholics read their own experience and theology back into the account of Nicodemus, but try to see how this would have been understood by a 1st Century Palestinian Jew. There is no way he would have understood the phrase "born of water" to refer to a Christian rite of baptism that didn't even exist at the time.

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

No it doesn't say that at all. It says "born of water".

I believe that the phrase "born of water" refers to physical birth. Jesus is saying to Nicodemus, "You must be born again. You need not only to be born of water (ie your first physical birth) but also by the spirit."

I can see how Catholics read their own experience and theology back into the account of Nicodemus, but try to see how this would have been understood by a 1st Century Palestinian Jew. There is no way he would have understood the phrase "born of water" to refer to a Christian rite of baptism that didn't even exist at the time.

Everybody is born of water in their physical birth so it would be superfluous and illogical of Jesus to say that someone must be born of water (in physical birth). Similar to Wicknight's point earlier.

This is from [url]www.drbo.org:[/url]

John 3:3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. 7 Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again.

In baptism we are born again spiritually in the sense that we receive life in our souls through grace making us just in the sight of God. The water is only a symbol but the cleansing action and the supernatural/divine life the Holy Spirit that we receive is real.

In view of Acts 2:38 and 22:16, do you accept that baptism erases sin from the soul?

God bless,
Noel.

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

Everybody is born of water in their physical birth so it would be superfluous and illogical of Jesus to say that someone must be born of water (in physical birth). Similar to Wicknight's point earlier.

Hardly superfluous and illogical when Jesus was responding to a direct question from Nicodemus which referred to physical birth by asking, "How can a man be born when he is old? Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born?"

Christ's comment about physical birth makes perfect sense when we read it in the context of the conversation instead of ripping it out of its literary, historical and cultural context.

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

Hardly superfluous and illogical when Jesus was responding to a direct question from Nicodemus which referred to physical birth by asking, "How can a man be born when he is old? Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born?"

Christ's comment about physical birth makes perfect sense when we read it in the context of the conversation instead of ripping it out of its literary, historical and cultural context.

The point I'm trying to make is that Jesus wasn't referring to physical birth. Obviously that's what Nicodemus thought He meant. Why would Jesus say that someone needs to be born of water (be born physically) to enter the Kingdom of Heaven when this is self evident? You can't be saved without being born physically! So clearly Jesus was referring to a spiritual rebirth in baptism. Is this not your understanding?

BTW, which bible are you quoting from? The Douay-Rheims says "born again" in 3:3 and 3:5.

John 3:3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Run_to_da_hills

kelly1 wrote: »

It says "born again of water", not "born of water". You can't be born again from the womb, can you? You're changing the words of the Gospel now!

I dont think so, Someone else has changed the Gospel as it reads differently in other translations.

The Douhay Rhiems of which Noel is reading from states:
"Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

The King James version states:
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". John 3 vs 5.

The NIV States:
Jesus answered, I tell you the truth, no-one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

The NASB Version states:
"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

Perhaps there may be some Greek Scholars out there that can clarify who changed the Gospel ?

kelly1

Online KJV:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be
born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&version=9

See also http://bible.cc/john/3-3.htm

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

King James Bible
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

American Standard Version
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Bible in Basic English
Jesus said to him, Truly, I say to you, Without a new birth no man is able to see the kingdom of God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Darby Bible Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God.

English Revised Version
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Anyway born without the word again makes no sense. Of course everyone is born but not everyone is born again.

philologos

PDN wrote: »

There is no way he would have understood the phrase "born of water" to refer to a Christian rite of baptism that didn't even exist at the time.

Ever heard of a mikveh? Jews often did this to converts to Judaism to make them ritually clean before God. Infact I consulted a Rabbi recently with questions, and part of the Jewish conversion process even today is going to mikveh, and they often did this in natural waters as well due to the economic situation. Baptism is based on the Jewish practise of mikveh.

Run_to_da_hills

The Bible teaches that man is created in the image of God. God manifests Himself to mankind in the Persons of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Likewise, mankind is composed of a body, soul, and spirit.

Our body is the "tent" you could say of the soul and spirit (the body is a temporary dwelling place). Our soul is composed of the heart (to feel), the mind (to think), and the will (to decide). Our spirit is dead in sin when we are born; that is, we are born void of God. No person is ever born with God. The only exception is the Lord Jesus Christ Who came as God in the flesh (1st Timothy 3:16). Our spirit is dead in trespasses and sin the Bible says...

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" -Ephesians 2:1,2

The unsaved person cannot understand God.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -1st Corinthians 2:14

The reason why you need to be "spiritually" born is because you have never been spiritually born to begin with. So when the Bible speaks of being "born again," it actually means "born for the second time." You were born physically into this world, but you were born without the Spirit of God in your soul (spiritually dead).

Yes, God created you, but He gave you a freewill to decide for yourself where you will spend eternity. God never forces anyone to accept Christ as their Savior, He simply offers a warm invitation to anyone who wants to have their sins forgiven and go to Heaven. Salvation is a free gift (Romans 5:15), paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ (1st Peter 1:18,19). We must accept God's gift of eternal life or it WILL be forever forfeited when we leave this world (die).

CerebralCortex

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

...Yes, God created you, but He gave you a freewill to decide for yourself where you will spend eternity. God never forces anyone to accept Christ as their Savior, He simply offers a warm invitation to anyone who wants to have their sins forgiven and go to Heaven. Salvation is a free gift (Romans 5:15), paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ (1st Peter 1:18,19). We must accept God's gift of eternal life or it WILL be forever forfeited when we leave this world (die).

I don't like him he can take his eternity and shove it.

santing

Jakkass wrote: »

Ever heard of a mikveh? Jews often did this to converts to Judaism ...

I think it will be hard to prove that mikveh did exist in the times of the Lord Jesus. Mikveh may been the Jewish answer on the Chridtian Baptism.

Anyway to come back to the subject: "does Baptism save..." my two cents:

When Peter spoke in Acts 2, he was speaking to a crowed that less than 55 days before condemned the Lord Jesus. He asks these people to make a public statement. Just believing in yor heart was not enough, they had to publicly confess their adherance - through baptism.

Christian Baptism is an act of discipleships as was said before, or even more: it initiates discipleship. So strictly you are not a disciple (Christian) without being baptised. If however, you are about to die when you receive Christ (I wouldn't advise you to wait so long!), you don't need to be baptised ... the dying thief on the cross was not baptised and still he received the promise to be with the Lord Jesus that day!

If however, you still continue this life when you became accept Christ as your Saviour, you need to publicly (outwardly) join your brothers and sisters in faith ... through baptism.

Without baptism there is (officially) no way of knowing that you have changed. Through baptism you receive a public accountability of the fact that your sins are forgiven. In this sense baptism saves. It places you in fellowship with the saved people of God. The salvation baptism brings therefore only counts on earth ... it is an administration of the Church.

philologos

santing wrote: »

I think it will be hard to prove that mikveh did exist in the times of the Lord Jesus. Mikveh may been the Jewish answer on the Chridtian Baptism.

Just look at the archaeology of the Essenes settlement in Qumran, there was a mikveh there. That was at Jesus' time I thought?

santing

Jakkass wrote: »

Just look at the archaeology of the Essenes settlement in Qumran, there was a mikveh there. That was at Jesus' time I thought?

The Essenes were not a "standard" Jewish group - they were outsiders. The findings are of a slightly later date - say end of first century.

The Mikveh is traditionally based on the ritual bathing required when someone was ceremonially unclean e.g.:

Deu 23:10,11 (ESV) "If any man among you becomes unclean because of a nocturnal emission, then he shall go outside the camp. He shall not come inside the camp, but when evening comes, he shall bathe himself in water, and as the sun sets, he may come inside the camp.
The septuagint doesn't use the word "baptism" here (or in similar places) but translates "wash his body." It is not clear if a bath / immersion was required. This ritual washing did become the Mikveh at some stage, but I don't think it was associated with the word baptism.

PDN

santing wrote: »

This ritual washing did become the Mikveh at some stage, but I don't think it was associated with the word baptism.

Nor, I believe, would it have been associated with the idea of birth or new birth at the time of Jesus or Nicodemus.

Welcome to the board, Santing.

philologos

santing wrote: »

The septuagint doesn't use the word "baptism" here (or in similar places) but translates "wash his body." It is not clear if a bath / immersion was required. This ritual washing did become the Mikveh at some stage, but I don't think it was associated with the word baptism.

Surely Jesus could have put a new meaning on the use of mikveh as an initiation ceremony as opposed to making someone ritually clean. Jesus also did similar things in relation to the Jewish law on revenge so I don't see why not in this circumstance. The practices do seem particularly similar.

As for the dating:

Wikipedia wrote:

The Essenes were a Jewish religious group that flourished from the 2nd century BC to the 1st century AD.

kelly1

Folks, leaving the born/born again debate aside for a while, how does someone claim that baptism is symbolic in light of the two verses below?

Acts 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.

Does anyone deny scripture when it clearly says that baptism washes away sins and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Let me be clear by saying that baptism would have no effect if it weren't for the shedding of Jesus' blood. In baptism our souls are cleansed of sin and we are made just in the sight of God. Our souls then become worthy for the Holy Spirit to dwell therein (until we commit a mortal sin).

God bless,
Noel.

kelly1

Nobody? Is everyone fed up of my defenses of the Catholic faith?

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Nobody? Is everyone fed up of my defenses of the Catholic faith?

Are you serious?

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Are you serious?

Yes. I've asked a valid question and all I want to do is have an open and honest debate about baptism. To me it's an important question. I believe that many people accept baptism as symbolic becuase they have been taught that it's only symbolic. I'm only asking people to challenge that assumption. Fair enough?

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

Is everyone fed up of my defenses of the Catholic faith?

Not at all -- please continue! I do find your defense interesting, though obviously enough I agree with few, if any, of them.

kelly1

robindch wrote: »

Not at all -- please continue! I do find your defense interesting, though obviously enough I agree with few, if any, of them.

Presumably on the basis that I'm talking about religious matters? Or is my argument flawed?

Tomk1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The Bible teaches that man is created in the image of God. God manifests Himself to mankind in the Persons of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Likewise, mankind is composed of a body, soul, and spirit.

Your god was a sprit-form definably not what i look like, for us to be the image of your god, then your god would be the image of us, so did your god have genitalia, if so why?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The reason why you need to be "spiritually" born is because you have never been spiritually born to begin with. So when the Bible speaks of being "born again," it actually means "born for the second time." You were born physically into this world, but you were born without the Spirit of God in your soul (spiritually dead).

I was baptised as a child, now as an adult I would of preferred if this ritual was never carried out. Can I unsubscribe the spirit-of-god, ie become unbaptised.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

God never forces anyone to accept Christ as their Savior, He simply offers a warm invitation to anyone who wants to have their sins forgiven and go to Heaven. Salvation is a free gift (Romans 5:15), paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ (1st Peter 1:18,19). We must accept God's gift of eternal life or it WILL be forever forfeited when we leave this world (die).

Yeah say that to those that died during the Catholic Inquisition.

Run_to_da_hills

Tomk1 wrote: »

Your god was a sprit-form definably not what i look like, for us to be the image of your god, then your god would be the image of us, so did your god have genitalia, if so why?.

When Christ walked on earth he took on all the physical characteristics of a male and would obviously have had genitalia. When Jesus came into the world he came to seek and save the lost and not to raise a family.

Tomk1 wrote: »

I was baptised as a child, now as an adult I would of preferred if this ritual was never carried out. Can I unsubscribe the spirit-of-god, ie become unbaptised.

I was also baptised as a child into the Roman Catholic Church against my will. I now believe that one should be baptised only after they have consiously become a Christian i.e. after the age of reason. Christians are supposed to be baptized as soon as possible after they are saved. In Bible times they were usually baptized the same day. You can accept or reject Christ at any time in your life but you choose your own destiny.
.

Tomk1 wrote: »

Yeah say that to those that died during the Catholic Inquisition..

I don't speak for the Catholic Church.

kelly1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I was also baptised as a child into the Roman Catholic Church against my will.

What happened, did the priest pin you down while pouring water over your head? Did nobody listen to your objections?

Run_to_da_hills

kelly1 wrote: »

What happened, did the priest pin you down while pouring water over your head? Did nobody listen to your objections?

They probably herd me scream my head off in fear!!!:eek:

kelly1

Tomk1 wrote: »

Your god was a sprit-form definably not what i look like, for us to be the image of your god, then your god would be the image of us, so did your god have genitalia, if so why?

Hey, the new kid on the block is having a go at us. Is that your best shot?

Our souls are like God, not our bodies. God is spirit.

Tomk1 wrote: »

I was baptised as a child, now as an adult I would of preferred if this ritual was never carried out. Can I unsubscribe the spirit-of-god, ie become unbaptised.

No sorry, you can't. The mark of baptism on the soul is indelible. Anyway if you believe baptism has no effect, how can you undo nothing? Do you belive in God or not?

I'm sorry to hear you've moved over to the dark side.

Black Swan

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not adding anything to scripture. Mark 16:16 clearly states that faith AND baptism are required for salvation. How can you read it any other way?

So a child that dies in childbirth will not meet these two conditions for salvation? (according to Mark 16:16)

kelly1

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

So a child that dies in childbirth will not meet these two conditions for salvation? (according to Mark 16:16)

Nobody knows. Jesus might baptise the child in order to be fair. Obviously the child can't have faith so God, I'm sure, would take this into account.

Run_to_da_hills

kelly1 wrote: »

Hey, the new kid on the block is having a go at us. Is that your best shot?

Our souls are like God, not our bodies. God is spirit.

No sorry, you can't. The mark of baptism on the soul is indelible. Anyway if you believe baptism has no effect, how can you undo nothing? Do you belive in God or not?

I'm sorry to hear you've moved over to the dark side.

The Baptism of the Roman Catholic Church has no effect simply because it is not carried out with accordance to the scriptures thus making it null and void. I would recommend any new Christian convert who has conciously made his mind up to follow Christ to get baptised by full emmersion, many Christian churches have the correct facilities and times designated for this service.

kelly1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The Baptism of the Roman Catholic Church has no effect simply because it is not carried out with accordance to the scriptures thus making it null and void. I would recommend any new Christian convert who has conciously made his mind up to follow Christ to get baptised by full emmersion, many Christian churches have the correct facilities and times designated for this service.

I'm sure the Catholic Church isn't the only one to baptise without immersion. Are you seriously telling me that multiple billions of people who weren't baptised by immersion since the time of the apostles are all damned? Full immersion is a tradition and nothing more.

Run_to_da_hills

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm sure the Catholic Church isn't the only one to baptise without immersion. Are you seriously telling that multiple billions of people who were baptise by immersion since the time of the apostles are all damned? Full immersion is a tradition and nothing more.

Yes many of the protestant churches such as the Luthern and Anglican have inherrited infant baptism from the Catholic Church, many offer the choice of both forms.

Baptism is an ordinance and is not necessary for salvation, the good thief on the cross never got baptised. The ordinance of baptism is a public symbol. When a person chooses to be baptized they are giving a public witness that they believe in Christ and are committed to following him.

kelly1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Baptism is an ordinance and is not necessary for salvation, the good thief on the cross never got baptised. The ordinance of baptism is a public symbol. When a person chooses to be baptized they are giving a public witness that they believe in Christ and are committed to following him.

Baptism with water is the normal form by which someone becomes a Christian. It is clear from scripture that baptism washes away sin and gives the gift of the Holy Spirit. Do you deny this?

Mark 16:16 also makes it clear that baptism is required to be saved. But maybe you don't realize that there is baptism by desire (Thief on the cross) and baptism by blood (martyrs who died for Christ).

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned. (both are required to be saved)