What's your take on this?

Hanley

Since this was suggested by Dragan in this thread (post 204) I’m opening up a thread here.

This is going to be a long post, but hopefully I'll pre-empt any questions that are bound to be asked!!

I was banned with several other posters for responding to a trolling comment where I was called out here (post 71).

At the time I felt the ban was unjust as a similar situation had occured earlier in the thread and was unpunished, but decided to take it on the chin and accept it since it was only for 3 days. This happened AFTER a warning on the previous page to stop the callouts and challenges. I subsequently reported the post because I felt it was in breach of what was said earlier, but was told by Dragan that since Ali was called out it was ok for her to respond and criticise another posters input to the forum.

I believe that this set a precedent as to what was and was not allowed in the thread henceforth. Namely, if you’re called out and insulted, then you’re allowed to defend yourself. This is exactly what I did, however I got banned for it. The thing that irks me is that even though I didn’t attack anyone else in my post I still got banned. I was actually told that my post was “degrading” to Timetogetfit by Dragan. Presumably this means that my achievements and success are degrading to others? I sought clarification on this, but my PM remains unanswered (it was sent on the 14th and the mod in question has been online and posting daily since then).

I was told to PM the mod who banned me (G’em) on Tuesday to be unbanned. I did this as requested and my ban was extended for another week. I only found this out when I looked at my user CP. I was told that I had to make a case for my re-admittance, which was never mentioned in the original PM, simply “PM me on Tuesday to be unbanned”.

In the interests of full disclosure and because it’s probably going to be brought up anyway, I was banned many moons ago from Dragan’s personal forum for a reply to a PM that G’em sent me(a series of PM’s which I did not inititiate nor in which any malice was intended, basically I told her I didn’t want to help with her training any more because I didn’t like her attitude). I think that it would be completely unrealistic to say that this has not been a factor in my extended ban here.

I was also told that I was to stop "baiting" people, which is ironic considering I was the one who was called out. I was also informed that some of my posts had been reported because of my "aggresive" posting style. I will argue my points as forcefully as anyone else on the forum, but I can draw on my own experience alot of the time as well as what is written in textbooks and journals on the case. One of my greatest failing’s is that I will call a spade a spade. I tend not to sugar coat things. If people don't like this and complain about it, should it not be brought to my attention as it happens so that I can attempt to correct this behaviour, or at least be more tactful? Instead of it being let build up so that it can be eventually used as a reason for not allowing me back after a ban??

One of the most annoying parts of this whole situation is that it leaves my personal training journal unavailable for me to post in. This journal has almost a years worth of training for 3 national championships and a world championship and is very important to me. I wouldn’t be spending the time typing and creating this thread if it wasn’t.

I was always under the impression that the point of sending a mod a pm at the end of a ban was to remind them that it was up in case they’d forgotten. Since no mention was made in the original PM when I was banned that I had to plead my case for re-admittance, I thought this was a reasonable assumption. Is this the case or have I gotten the wrong end of the ban stick?

Is it the case that you need to "convince" the mod when it is time to be re-admitted to a forum? And what does this entail?? Subsequently the two other posters who were banned have now been unbanned and are posting again (one of these posters has an awful track record of being nothing more than a sh!t stirrer who offers no advice but will argue any point regardless) I’ve been more than civil in my dealings thus far, but evidently that is not enough.

Hopefully one of the admins or other mods can have a look at this and get back to me with their take on things since it feels like I’m banging my head against a brick wall. My second ban is now up, but I’m hesitant to PM any mods about getting it lifted because it will probably be further extended.

Any guidance on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Hanley

tbh

probably a stupid question, but in that first picture were you making a face at the person who called you out? or is that a bodybuilding pose? Maybe that's what dragan meant.

I don't really know any of the parties, but I have to say, that's a great way to write a feedback post, it'd be good if they could all start that way.

Faith

Obviously all mods are different, but I don't think you're generally expected to "plead your case" to be readmitted. Most mods appreciate an apology for bad behaviour and a promise not to do it again, along with a polite reminder. If the PM goes along the line of "Time's up, give me back my access", it'll get peoples backs up, and bans will often be extended because of this.

Perhaps if you post up the exact content of them PM you sent asking to be unbanned, we'll get a better idea.

Red Hand

+1, good suggestion, Faith.

Though, the "case for readmitance" sounds like you might have been banned a few times for behaviour the mods didn't like, and now they want you to show why you should be allowed in again? Thats how it reads to me...

Sherifu

I'm loving those pectorals.

Hanley

Faith wrote: »

Obviously all mods are different, but I don't think you're generally expected to "plead your case" to be readmitted. Most mods appreciate an apology for bad behaviour and a promise not to do it again, along with a polite reminder. If the PM goes along the line of "Time's up, give me back my access", it'll get peoples backs up, and bans will often be extended because of this.

Perhaps if you post up the exact content of them PM you sent asking to be unbanned, we'll get a better idea.

Of course you're right. And normally I would agree with you, but when you consider prior events it's a situation that I don't think any resonable person would expect to happen.

I was banned from Dragan's forum as a result of a conversation with G'em. We don't like each other. We've been in the same room and don't even acknowledge each other.I don't think it's fair to expect me to grovel for re-admittance in those circumstances. Everyone involved is aware of the situation, and to be honest I feel it's a very easy thing to hold over my head in situations like this.

She said to PM her on Tueday, I PM'd her quoting her original post and said that it was Tuesday. My ban was extended. I honestly don't think that given the circumstances anyone could expect anymore of me.

As for being banned previously, I was banned previously by Dragan soon after he became mod, and soon after I was banned from his forum, I don't recall WHY I was banned but I remember thinking it was incredibly heavy handed. I PM'd one of the other mods on the forum and he agreed with me and the ban was lifted.

RoundyMooney

Nicely put case, Hanley (in your OP).

Just as a heads up, don't post any of Dragan or G'em's PMs without their permission, though

I hope you guys can work something out.

Hagar

TBH when a ban is up it's up.
The mods decided the punishment and the poster served his time.

If the intent was to ban him for longer that should have been stated at the outset. Perm ban him at the time of the offence if you feel his behaviour deserved it but it is disingenuous to arbitrarily extend bans.

The guy should be let back in unless there was abusive Pms in the interim.

FWIW I don't think posters should have to come back with cap in hand begging re-admission. Mods should automatically lift bans when they are done, it's part of your duties. If you're not up for all that goes with being a mod step down and let someone who is do the job. If you do forget and a poster reminds you, then just lift the ban with a good heart, they are only asking for what they are due.

I'm not aiming that comment at anyone, it's a general observation.

g'em

Hanley I've been in touch with you privately multiple times over the last few months, and have always made a huge effort to be courteous in dealing with you. Not once have you ever responded to me, unless it's to argue against my point on a thread.

The initial ban you received was lenient to say the least. Having been previously banned in the forum and received a number of formal warnings and unrecorded ones via PMs (non-infractions that is) over the previous week and months you quite simply went a step too far going directly against the wishes of a Moderator in a thread. A ban was deserved and if anything I was accused of being too soft on you by an SMod by only giving you a 3 day ban.

You did, indeed contact me when the three days were up with this message:

Hanley wrote:

g'em wrote:

Dear Hanley,

You have received a warning at boards.ie.

Reason:

---

Breach of Peace

Hanley,


There's were multiple warnings within the thread to cut the call-outs, and you continued to rise to the bait. You're all getting a three-day ban, PM me on Tuesday for re-admission.

g'em

---

It's Tuesday.

Perhaps not the most curteous of PMs, but regardless I PM'd you back expressing how I am fully aware of what a valuable contributor to the forum but I was concerned at you constantly ignoring requests that Dragan or I made and you have a tendency to be aggressive in your dealings with other forum members. You never replied to me and so Dragan dealt with you from there, and I let him deal with the length of your ban and it was he who extended it. I'm yet to be convinced that your behaviour in the forum will be any different when you come back.

Hanley wrote: »

In the interests of full disclosure and because it’s probably going to be brought up anyway, I was banned many moons ago from Dragan’s personal forum for a reply to a PM that G’em sent me(a series of PM’s which I did not inititiate nor in which any malice was intended, basically I told her I didn’t want to help with her training any more because I didn’t like her attitude). I think that it would be completely unrealistic to say that this has not been a factor in my extended ban here.

Well you brought it up, not us. For the record, that has absolutely nothing to do with this and I think you're being very selective with your information. It's completley true that we haven't seen eye to eye in the past, but since that time I have twice wish you luck via PM in competitions we both took part in and twice you've ignored me. Previous to that I apologised to you for my part in the misunderstanding and extended a white flag which you rebuked.

From a PM I sent you on 9-11-2007:

Also, the best of luck next weekend. I know we haven't seen eye to eye in the past, but it would be great if we could just put all that aside for a couple of days - at the end of the day we're both going to Scotland representing our country and it would be great if we could show a united front. If we were competing in the same class it might be a different story - no doubt you'd knock seven shades of sh!t out of me with your lifts !! You've been working damn hard in the run up to this and you deserve to do brilliantly. Good luck - white lights and light weights all the way.

Hanley wrote:

One of the most annoying parts of this whole situation is that it leaves my personal training journal unavailable for me to post in. This journal has almost a years worth of training for 3 national championships and a world championship and is very important to me. I wouldn’t be spending the time typing and creating this thread if it wasn’t.

I'm sure you can copy and paste from your journal on the other forum without too much hassle...

I have tried my utmost to be fair with you in particular as I'm accutely aware of what has happened in RL in the past. But a number of times I have also expressed my wishes to put the past behind us and move on, and each and every single time you have refused. I'm really not sure what more I can do. Given that Dragan extended your ban, I'll leave it to him to decided when to lift it. This was a long time coming, and while your behaviour on that thread as a stand-alone incident may not seem like that big a deal it was just the final straw that really did break this camel's back. And that's a hell of a strong back to break in fairness.

If you do want to come back to the forum, is it unreasonable of me to request that you return the courtesy I give you?

Tom Dunne

I think you need more fibre in your diet.

Nevyn

Some advice,

1) don't bring stuff from other sites to here.

2) you should have a copy of your journal, log out and make a copy and upload it to your boards blog, or blogspot or live journal.

3) yes the length of time for a ban can be extended when the pattern of a posters behaviour in a forum is looked at, esp if they doing things they know pisses the mods off.

4) be happy that with the new infraction system all mods will be able to see what you track record is and allow for transparency rather then mods and posters alluding to things in pm.

5) civility is expected on all the forums here ( bar the thunderdome ) it's part of the site rules.

6) if you have an issue with a post report rather then retort.

7) posting on this site is a privilege not a right and posters who do not get the learning curve and are peristantly disruptive do get permabanned from fora, ask mordeth ( or what ever nick he has now ).

IF you really think it is interpersonal bollix then contact an smod rather then trying to have a go in this forum.

Talliesin

Hanley wrote: »

She said to PM her on Tueday, I PM'd her quoting her original post and said that it was Tuesday.

I don't think you're understanding the point of your ban.

The idea is that with a bit of luck you'll cop yourself on a bit from the slap on the wrist and if nothing else at least the users of the forum won't have to put up with you for that time.

You PM does not indicate that you've copped yourself on. Why should the moderators unban you? This seems to be an action almost guaranteed to lower the quality of the forum.

6th

User is a big contributor to a forum.

User can get heated on the subject as they are passionate about it.

User has real life experiences with mod/s of forum - not all positive.

User gets a bit more leeway than they should sometimes.

User relies too heavily on the forum.

Hanley the above sounds like you and me both on our respective forums. Sure the mods may know you IRL and have issues with you but that doesnt mean they are out to get you. Ok they might be but if theres a genuine problem then take it to the CMod or Helpdesk.

Given the situation it sounds like you are a bitch to mod, no offense, I can be too. Maybe they should call in someone neutral to mod you specifically but christ is anyone worth that effort?

No that the forum can and will exist without you. Take a break from it (via the ban) and realise that maybe you need to tweak your behaviour. As has been said above, you really should report posts rather than get aggressive.

Honestly Hanley I have been where you are and you must be seriously pissed off to think that you got a ban because a mod doesnt like you .... but you weren't, you just broke the rules.

Being that everything you or anyone posts is on here to read its easy to look back and see when we were acting the dick and over stepping the mark.

I'm aware of my mistakes and indiscretions in the past and feel sorry for some of the mods that have had to deal with me ... I hope you can get to were I am and become a better contributor to the forum than you already are.

6th

Hanley

g'em wrote: »

Hanley I've been in touch with you privately multiple times over the last few months, and have always made a huge effort to be courteous in dealing with you. Not once have you ever responded to me, unless it's to argue against my point on a thread.

The initial ban you received was lenient to say the least. Having been previously banned in the forum and received a number of formal warnings and unrecorded ones via PMs (non-infractions that is) over the previous week and months you quite simply went a step too far going directly against the wishes of a Moderator in a thread. A ban was deserved and if anything I was accused of being too soft on you by an SMod by only giving you a 3 day ban.

I haven't responded to any of your PM's because I felt it was another chance for you to "get back in" with me so I could give you advice coming up to a competition. Don't think that I haven't noticed that the only times you've been "in touch" have been in the run up to competitions. Is it too unrealistic for me to think you were simply doing that so that I might help you again in the future?

I believe that is something along the lines of what I was banned off Teamtest for? But since that has no bearing on the current situation, let that be the last mention of it.

You did, indeed contact me when the three days were up with this message:

Considering RoundeyMoody has already posted here to say not to post peoples PM's without permission I find that in extremely bad taste.

Perhaps not the most curteous of PMs, but regardless I PM'd you back expressing how I am fully aware of what a valuable contributor to the forum but I was concerned at you constantly ignoring requests that Dragan or I made and you have a tendency to be aggressive in your dealings with other forum members. You never replied to me and so Dragan dealt with you from there, and I let him deal with the length of your ban and it was he who extended it. I'm yet to be convinced that your behaviour in the forum will be any different when you come back.

Firstly, I was told by you tha while I was a valuable contributer, I was "not irreplacable", so I guess I'm not the only one who can be "selective" in the information I give out eh...?

I'm looking back thru PM's and the only one's that I can find with any warnings or such are from one from October and one from November. Since then I've edited and deleted numerous posts of mine that I felt might have stepped over the edge.

How am I meant to monitor and correct my behaviour if I'm not being told when I step over the line? I believe that's what the infraction system was brought in for? As far as I'm aware, I've only ever been infracted once. I think 12 is the limit, so it's not like the opportunity wasn't there to slap me on the wrist if I was being bold.

Finally, I would like to know how timetogetfit/juanveron45 has managed to convince you that they have turned over a new leaf? He is a perinial annoyance in that forum and every thread he posts in tends to descend into chaos.

It should be nothed that the two other peope who were banned have been banned previously also but are now back posting, so it's not a special dispensation that only I was lucky enough to receive.

Given that Dragan extended your ban, I'll leave it to him to decided when to lift it.

Really, was it?? In my CP it says that you're the mod who has me banned. It may have been Dragan, but since there was no formal communication to inform me of such I've no way of knowing. So basically I've received another ban, for reasons unknown, which I wasn't even informed of. I thought the end date on a ban was when it should be lifted? For future reference, are these to be treated more as guidelines?

Also, on that note, my ban was extended by Dragan <12 hours after I last received a PM from you and before I had a chance to respond. Is it normal for another moderator to extend a ban as they see fit and not inform the poster in question?

This was a long time coming, and while your behaviour on that thread as a stand-alone incident may not seem like that big a deal it was just the final straw that really did break this camel's back. And that's a hell of a strong back to break in fairness.

If you do want to come back to the forum, is it unreasonable of me to request that you return the courtesy I give you?

I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but basically the above seems to convey that this ban is a result of lots of prior behaviour? Would it not have been fair to give me infractions of formal warnings along the way about my behaviour? Instead of letting it all build to a head so that I could receive a lengthy ban? Again, I thought the infraction system was there as an on-going slap on the wrist method to keep posters in check?

Hanley

Thaedydal wrote: »

Some advice,

1) don't bring stuff from other sites to here.

Ideally, I wouldn't. But I do feel it has direct baring on the current situation.

2) you should have a copy of your journal, log out and make a copy and upload it to your boards blog, or blogspot or live journal.

I do have a copy of my journal in case of situations exactly like this, but now I've only got the one source to input the info to. I liked having 2 journals with the exact same content as a fail safe. To start a new journal somewhere else and post all my old workouts since last march in it would be incredibly time consuming.

3) yes the length of time for a ban can be extended when the pattern of a posters behaviour in a forum is looked at, esp if they doing things they know pisses the mods off.

How does one know this tho?? Honestly, if I had received formal warnings or infractions I would have been alot more careful with my posts.

4) be happy that with the new infraction system all mods will be able to see what you track record is and allow for transparency rather then mods and posters alluding to things in pm.

I'm very happy with it. It backs up what I'm saying.

5) civility is expected on all the forums here ( bar the thunderdome ) it's part of the site rules.

I have no problem being civil, to me being civil is simply not creating unneccessary hassle. Maybe this is where my problem lies, I don't actually know what is expected!!

I have no interest in becoming "friends" with G'em. In fact the last time I stated this I was banned from Dragan's personal forum, so why would I try doing it again? It seems being "civil" is replying to the PM's, but again, the last time I did that I was banned, albeit not from this forum, but from the forum run by the two mods in question.

6) if you have an issue with a post report rather then retort.

If you re-read my original post you'll see that I reported a post earlier on in the thread very similar to mine. I was told the post I reported was ok since the person was attacked and defended themselves. I was attacked and defended myself too. Is it unrealistic to expect the same treatment?

7) posting on this site is a privilege not a right and posters who do not get the learning curve and are peristantly disruptive do get permabanned from fora, ask mordeth ( or what ever nick he has now ).

IF you really think it is interpersonal bollix then contact an smod rather then trying to have a go in this forum.

I know that. That's why I haven't posted in this forum previously despite my misgivings about certain moderating acts that I've fallen foul of. I figured there was no point running and crying about it when I could just take it on the chin and hopefully leave it at that.

If you must know, I PM'd Jak about all of this before starting this thread. I waited 4 or 5 days for a reply, and would have waited for a full week had Dragan not suggested somebody start this thread.

Hanley

Talliesin wrote: »

I don't think you're understanding the point of your ban.

The idea is that with a bit of luck you'll cop yourself on a bit from the slap on the wrist and if nothing else at least the users of the forum won't have to put up with you for that time.

You PM does not indicate that you've copped yourself on. Why should the moderators unban you? This seems to be an action almost guaranteed to lower the quality of the forum.

The point of my ban was presumably to warn me about my behaviour yeah? I've been warned so it's served it's purpose. What is the point in putting an end date on a ban so? Why not just leave it as a rolling deal? It's nothing that would not have been achieved by using infractions tho either.

I find it funny that you would state " lower the quality of the forum". If you're a regular reader you'd no doubt have seen the threads personally thanking me and others for their help, I've also helped several people thru private messages and answered general questions in my journal. I've received several PM's from regular posters in support saying that the forum is worse off without me.

Just for those who don't know, I've won several national powerlifting (weightlfiting basically!) titles, competed at and won a world championship and hold many national records. I've spent alot of time reading and learning about different training methods, I've tried them out, identified their shortcomings and learned from them. I've played junior soccer and GAA at a relatively high level too so I feel I'm pretty well rounded when it comes to all matters "fitness" and I try to be as open and honest with people when I reply to their posts.

dr.bollocko

In fairness, this feedback thread shouldnt even exist. The guy made a good point, it was well made, he is a valid contributor and not a troll and he helps people out.
Perhaps its time to lift the ban, lock the thread and take it that we have all learned something from this rather than continuing in a moaning session where mods back each other up and users get all "fight the power" on us. When someone serves their time for a ban that ban should be lifted? It's not like the guy has been trolling or started his feedback thread with a "I was banned for nothing WTF all the mods suck."
LET HIM IN!!
GATTACA!!

Hanley

6th wrote: »

User is a big contributor to a forum.

User can get heated on the subject as they are passionate about it.

User has real life experiences with mod/s of forum - not all positive.

User gets a bit more leeway than they should sometimes.

User relies too heavily on the forum.

Hahaha so true... except maybe the last one

I've probably addressed most of what you've said in my other replies but since you've been so level headed towards me and seem to know how I fee I'll try to explain further!!

Hanley the above sounds like you and me both on our respective forums. Sure the mods may know you IRL and have issues with you but that doesnt mean they are out to get you. Ok they might be but if theres a genuine problem then take it to the CMod or Helpdesk.

I PM'd Jak about the whole thing in question. Afaik he's the longest standing mod there so I figured he was the best person to go to. I actually expressed misgivings about the whole situation and it's potential to blow up in my face last year at some stage in PMs to him. So it's something I've been acutely aware of happening at some point.

I didn't go to the help desk because I had hoped it wouldn't be an issue and know that the admins have a lot to be dealing with and since I'm such a small part of the fora I didn't think there was any point in bothering them.

Given the situation it sounds like you are a bitch to mod, no offense, I can be too. Maybe they should call in someone neutral to mod you specifically but christ is anyone worth that effort?

Haha I'm only a bitch because I'm always right and aren't afraid to say it!! (**I'm joking, I'm joking!!). I just think that *big head alert* I've a level of applied knowledge that most on the forum don't have, so I tend to be more outspoken than most.

**A neutral mod would be nice. But one who was in my corner would be nicer!! Maybe we could have both... Admins...?? :eek::p

No that the forum can and will exist without you. Take a break from it (via the ban) and realise that maybe you need to tweak your behaviour. As has been said above, you really should report posts rather than get aggressive.

Like I said, I took the original ban on the chin!! And the subsequent extended ban, but neither of them were lifted... I'm sure you've already read my other replies where I said I have reported posts in the past. Actually a while ago I was warned for reporting TOO MANY posts!! The last post I reported was pretty much the exact same as the one I subsequently made, but it was ok. For reasons know only to the mods!

Honestly Hanley I have been where you are and you must be seriously pissed off to think that you got a ban because a mod doesnt like you .... but you weren't, you just broke the rules.

I'd have no problem accepting the ban if it wasn't for the fact that a post so similar to mine was previously allowed. And it's not like it slipped thru the net since I reported it and was told it was a fair post. If I hadn't reported it I could maybe accept that it just slipped thru the mod's net and there was no point throwing out bans retrospectively, but that wasn't the case. It's something that was highlighted by me, allowed by a mod, and mimiced by me only to be disallowed!!

Being that everything you or anyone posts is on here to read its easy to look back and see when we were acting the dick and over stepping the mark.

I'm aware of my mistakes and indiscretions in the past and feel sorry for some of the mods that have had to deal with me ... I hope you can get to were I am and become a better contributor to the forum than you already are.

I just hope I can post again!!

**There's nothing wrong with some lighthearted relief in a thread as serious as this I hope!!

Hanley

dr.bollocko wrote: »

In fairness, this feedback thread shouldnt even exist. The guy made a good point, it was well made, he is a valid contributor and not a troll and he helps people out.
Perhaps its time to lift the ban, lock the thread and take it that we have all learned something from this rather than continuing in a moaning session where mods back each other up and users get all "fight the power" on us. When someone serves their time for a ban that ban should be lifted? It's not like the guy has been trolling or started his feedback thread with a "I was banned for nothing WTF all the mods suck."
LET HIM IN!!
GATTACA!!

I like you!!

dr.bollocko

Im just saying. I dont think anyone is necessarily right or wrong here, its not about admission of guilt. I just genuinely think its pretty obvious that poor Hanley should be allowed back in or else perma-banned forever and pushing out a temp ban arbitrarily is not really on without a valid reason.
After all, I am allowed to post in pet issues again. Fair play to those pet issues mods. Tough but fair.

g'em

Hanley wrote: »

I haven't responded to any of your PM's because I felt it was another chance for you to "get back in" with me so I could give you advice coming up to a competition. Don't think that I haven't noticed that the only times you've been "in touch" have been in the run up to competitions. Is it too unrealistic for me to think you were simply doing that so that I might help you again in the future?

So you really think that someone can't be nice just for the sake of it? That's incredible.

I had written a response to all your other points but... well you're not listening to any of it are you?

FYI Hanley I'm going away for two weeks on Saturday. Dragan and I had already discussed lifting your ban in the near future. And yes, there is already an impartial Mod installed in the forum now which we implemented earlier this week.

Your cynicism about me is amazing. This isn't t-nation or TeamTest or anywhere other than boards. Whether you're willing to believe this or not, I have done my utmost to treat you as fairly as all the other posters. I have infracted you in the past, and even mistakenly gave you an infraction which I had meant to only be a warning - within minutes I'd contacted an Admin and had it removed leaving no permanent mark on your ID. I could have gone back and re-instilled the warning but didn't. You have accused me of being over-zealous in my Modding when reporting other people's posts and yet now you say if your behaviour had warranted them I should have infracted more.

I couldn't give two flying farts whether you like me or not, but if you want to go around holding grudges that's totally your call.

RoundyMooney

Hanley,

It's a long standing etiquette here that PMs aren't reproduced without the permission of the user.

Reproducing a two word response, in my view doesn't break the spirit of that policy, particularly when you all but divulged the content of that PM in the first place. (Your "infraction" PM was one that was visible to all mods anyway).

I personally feel that introducing the aside of what happened on teamtest is irrelevant to this discussion. We cannot pass judgement on what happens elsewhere, not least because we don't know the ins and outs of it all.

I can say hand on heart though, that the two incumbent mods there have done their utmost to act in an impartial manner, and have not allowed any outside friction influence their boards.ie decision making. How do I know this? We discuss many things among the mods, sometimes even moderation, on a forum by forum basis. One of the existing mods there has also been very helpful to me personally, so they do as much work behind the scenes as anyone.

For the record, you received two (now expired) infractions in relation to the Fitness forum, and there were a number of warnings as well, along the way.

I have been known to extend bans in the past (or push them up to sitebans), purely because I was convinced that the users in question were just going to cause more problems, even outside the initial forum ban etc.

In your case, I don't think that's an issue. I acknowledge that your enthusiasm and contributions to Fitness are manifest, but I wouldn't agree with the manner of their execution, some of the time. Your mangling of my username, and raking over of side issues that are best kept between you guys, for one thing.

As far as I'm concerned, the forum is better with you contributing in a reasoned manner, than without you. I'd support any case for your readmittance.

As a final point, a new moderator, who happens to be one of the most respected contributors on this site, and who I can vouch for as an impartial and neutral voice has been appointed to the Fitness sub-category.

Hagar

RoundyMooney wrote: »

As a final point, a new moderator, who happens to be one of the most respected contributors on this site, and who I can vouch for as an impartial and neutral voice has been appointed to the Fitness sub-category.

I thought Smashey was going to do it ???



Just joking. Smashey is the man for the job.

RoundyMooney

Yes, but he's bigger than me.

'nuff said.

Beruthiel

g'em wrote: »

A ban was deserved and if anything I was accused of being too soft on you by an SMod by only giving you a 3 day ban.

I believe that was me.
I told g'em that a 3 day ban is hardly a ban and is not the normal length. One week being the normal.
If it's a second ban it should be a month and a third six months.
These are guidelines but if a poster is going to continue giving you gip then that's the course of action that should be taken.
When a poster is giving a Mod more headaches then they need, why keep them in the forum?
I see no reason why the should.

As for extending a ban, if I ban someone for x amount of time and I get a PM that gives me gip, then the ban is extended on the grounds that I don't need this poster in PI as they obviously learned nothing and will only carry on the same way once they get back in.

As for keeping your journal in that forum, not a good idea.
If this information is important to you then the only person you should be relying on is yourself and it would seem keeping it somewhere you can always access would be the way to go.

I was concerned at you constantly ignoring requests that Dragan or I made and you have a tendency to be aggressive in your dealings with other forum members.

Personally, I would not stand for that in any forum I mod.

I have tried my utmost to be fair with you in particular as I'm accutely aware of what has happened in RL in the past.

It would seem to me that you guys know each other in real life and as a result, you Hanley, have probably gotten away with far more than most as a result. Instead of appreciating this, it would seem that you have pushed it to the limit.
You have taken this ban very personally and as a result make it very difficult for the current Mods to moderate you.
I know that both Mods have bent over backwards to be fair to you, they have even let you away with stuff they shouldn't incase you get wound up about it.
imo a bad move on their part as it has gained them nothing but grief.
I personally believe as a result of that a third Mod who doesn't know any of ye should help over see this particular forum.

tbh

Hanley wrote: »

I haven't responded to any of your PM's because I felt it was another chance for you to "get back in" with me so I could give you advice coming up to a competition. Don't think that I haven't noticed that the only times you've been "in touch" have been in the run up to competitions. Is it too unrealistic for me to think you were simply doing that so that I might help you again in the future?

I thought you might be interested in the opinion of an observer who is completely impartial as he knows no-one involved. I had a lot of sympathy for you until I read the above. Having read it, the mods treatment of you suddenly makes a lot of sense.

Beruthiel

tbh wrote: »

I thought you might be interested in the opinion of an observer who is completely impartial as he knows no-one involved. I had a lot of sympathy for you until I read the above. Having read it, the mods treatment of you suddenly makes a lot of sense.

It is a statement which is petty, arrogant and pathetic.

smashey

Hanley wrote: »

I just think that *big head alert* I've a level of applied knowledge that most on the forum don't have, so I tend to be more outspoken than most.

**A neutral mod would be nice. But one who was in my corner would be nicer!! Maybe we could have both... Admins...?? :eek::p

I'm the neutral mod in question here and I'll be in my own little corner. I don't have the "level of applied knowledge" that you have as my field is Planning and Construction.

What I will have, is a totally unbiased approach to modding based on the fitness charter and general site-wide rules. As I don't know any of the posters personally, I can be as detached as need be.

BuffyBot

Hanley wrote: »

I like you!!

It's easy to like those that sympathise with you.

It may be just me, but I think you're not coming over all to agreeable on this thread...

AckwelFoley

Anyone have a pic of a weightlifting lolcat?

Mr. Incognito

I think the initial three day ban was just, Real pissing up the wall stuff.

The extension of the ban with no expanation was harsh tbh considering the other two poster's bans were lifted.

I think we have a personal animosity here and everyone is hiding behind the rules and their own interpretation of them.

hanley- you have to respect the mods whether you like them or not.

_blank_

snyper wrote: »

Anyone have a pic of a weightlifting lolcat?

Hanley

g'em wrote: »

So you really think that someone can't be nice just for the sake of it? That's incredible.

I had written a response to all your other points but... well you're not listening to any of it are you?

Of course a person can be nice just for the sake of it but what I said was based on my personal experience after meeting you. I felt like I had been used in the past (not specifically by you) and tbh I didn’t feel like being used again. I could have writen back to your pms and said that I didn’t want to talk to you but you’ll remember I was banned for doing just that before so I ignored them.

Your cynicism about me is amazing. This isn't t-nation or TeamTest or anywhere other than boards. Whether you're willing to believe this or not, I have done my utmost to treat you as fairly as all the other posters. I have infracted you in the past, and even mistakenly gave you an infraction which I had meant to only be a warning - within minutes I'd contacted an Admin and had it removed leaving no permanent mark on your ID. I could have gone back and re-instilled the warning but didn't.

For the record, I have one infraction and one warning. An infraction from you, for back seat modding. And warning from Nesf for reporting too many posts. (obviously in addition to the current one)

You have accused me of being over-zealous in my Modding when reporting other people's posts and yet now you say if your behaviour had warranted them I should have infracted more.

Yes, I do think some of the moderation on the fitness forum can be a bit pre-emptive. But given that you know I know and feel that way, would it not be reasonable for me to think that if there was a problem with my posting style it would be jumped on and I'd be warned/infracted as soon and as frequently as there is a problem?

kaimera

As for extending a ban, if I ban someone for x amount of time and I get a PM that gives me gip, then the ban is extended on the grounds that I don't need this poster in PI as they obviously learned nothing and will only carry on the same way once they get back in.

You'd let the poster know that the ban was extended right?

Dragan

Hmmmm.....a few points on things.

Yes, Hanley you were banned from Team Test. We had the same problems over there as we do over here now funnily enough. I had a few complaints from posters about you and i addressed them with you. You said you didn't really see it but would work on things. Cool. Then you insulted and upset my friend. I don't really hold with that so i banned you. You repeatedly disrespected a Mod and an Admin on a site. How did you expect not to be banned. You thought G'em was only talking to you for more help? Then you clearly didn't actually get to know her at all in the time you spent talking to her, or training with her, or asking her questions on diet or answering her questions on powerlifting.

If anything banning you from Team Test has made me treat you with kid gloves over here, specifically because i didn't want to give you the idea i was bullying you. What happens on Team Test is TT business. This is boards. Different countries, different Constitutions if you would.

Now then, with regard to your banning from here. Something happened on a thread, i dealt with it as I saw fit, then i posted telling EVERYONE else that if something similar happened to just report the post or PM a Mod. Not to respond.

It happened again and you responded as you did. You were banned. In several PM's between us you have once again failed to see that THIS is the reason you were banned.

When a Mod says something in a forum you act as they suggest. You don't go around because you feel a precedant was set and your in the mood. When a Mod says "don't do this, do x,y,z if you get called out" and you go ahead and do something anyway, what do you think should happen?

The reason your ban was extended was because once again in PM's you pretty much ignored my point about just trying to do what the Mod's say and proceeded to tell me the reasons why you felt i had banned you, that Ali should have been banned and so forth.

For what it's worth, in my view, what was said to Ali was MUCH worse that what was said to you.Ali was called a joke by a poster who was notorious for causing trouble and offering nothing who had also thrown back every chance i had offered him to behave himself. When you were questioned by someone who is widely regarded as just needing help and being confused you didn't do what i had asked. Instead you decided to do what i had specifically asked people NOT to do. You were banned.

I fail to see how this did not compute with you at the time as being a bad idea.

G'em banned you for three days. I decided to extend it because you just were not learning you lesson about listening to Mods as was evident from the PM's we had been sending each other.

Oh, and as for the whole saying hello issue? I said hello to you at the World's, your the one who just strolled on by. You have recived PM's a few days before comps wishing you the best of luck which you have ignored. When i try and interact with you in threads, make points off yours and ask you question outside of my Moderator role you ignore them also.

I have basically but up with you being far ruder to me than i would ever allow one poster to be to another for the simple reason of not actually wanting to ban you fully because you do offer some good info to the board.

As it is we had drafted in a new impartial Mod. Specifically because we do have a personal history and it can make stuff tough to deal with. So, we got in one new Mod because of the behaviour of one specific person.

Now that i think about it that really is bending over backwards to accomodate someone and not have them feel but upon, which is insane. But it's what we are doing.

Thats about all i have to say on the matter to be honest.

Hanley

RoundyMooney wrote: »

I personally feel that introducing the aside of what happened on teamtest is irrelevant to this discussion. We cannot pass judgement on what happens elsewhere, not least because we don't know the ins and outs of it all.

It may or may not be irrelevent but I wanted to include it anyway just to give th full picture. As stated before, the two other users that were banned at the same time as me had been banned and warned, both in threads and privately in the past. However these two users are now back posting, dispite the fact they’ve been warned/banned in the past like myself. The only real difference I can see is that I had a falling out with the mods before so naturally when I saw the other users back posting I jumped to the conclusion that this falling out had something to do with my extended ban.I thought it was a reasonable assumption to make so included it.

Do you at least see WHY I thought it could have a bearing on the situation?

For the record, you received two (now expired) infractions in relation to the Fitness forum, and there were a number of warnings as well, along the way.

The only record that I have of individual warnings specific of me are the ones I mentioned earlier. The infraction by G'em, and warning by Nesf. Ironically the one from Nesf wasn't about my posting style, but about reporting posts.

Also I've checked back on PM's and can only find 2 where my conduct has been called into question. These aren't recent PM's (oct/nov time) and I had taken heed of them and toned down my posts a bit. I thought I was going a good job and since I had no indication otherwise I figured what I was saying was more acceptable now.

In your case, I don't think that's an issue. I acknowledge that your enthusiasm and contributions to Fitness are manifest, but I wouldn't agree with the manner of their execution, some of the time. Your mangling of my username, and raking over of side issues that are best kept between you guys, for one thing.

Oops.... sorry!!

Hanley

.

Beruthiel wrote: »

I believe that was me.
I told g'em that a 3 day ban is hardly a ban and is not the normal length. One week being the normal.
If it's a second ban it should be a month and a third six months.
These are guidelines but if a poster is going to continue giving you gip then that's the course of action that should be taken.
When a poster is giving a Mod more headaches then they need, why keep them in the forum?
I see no reason why the should.

Do you mind me asking you if you said that in relation to all three bans that were handed out that day or just in relation to mine?? My reading from what G'em has said is that she was accused of bein too soft with MY ban as it was only three days. Both the other posters who were banned had previous bannings to their name too. One of them, Roper, contributes quite alot of good solid info and MA experience to the site also.

It would seem to me that you guys know each other in real life and as a result, you Hanley, have probably gotten away with far more than most as a result. Instead of appreciating this, it would seem that you have pushed it to the limit.
You have taken this ban very personally and as a result make it very difficult for the current Mods to moderate you.
I know that both Mods have bent over backwards to be fair to you, they have even let you away with stuff they shouldn't incase you get wound up about it.
imo a bad move on their part as it has gained them nothing but grief.
I personally believe as a result of that a third Mod who doesn't know any of ye should help over see this particular forum.

I sincerly doubt I have gotten away with more than most. But that's just my personal opinion, anybody could look at the same situation and agree or disagree.

I never asked for, or expected any special treated if that is what I've been afforded. I'd have been much happier receiving infractions along the way so at least I could know what is and is not allowable. I can't ask for fairer than that surely??

And I agree with your last point, looks like there's one there now! I'm glad there's a new impartial one. I was never too big a fan of having two best friends modding the same forum. I think it leaves the door open to ganging up on posters if the situation occurs and fosters the "mod vs fight the powah" attitude.

Hanley

smashey wrote: »

I'm the neutral mod in question here and I'll be in my own little corner. I don't have the "level of applied knowledge" that you have as my field is Planning and Construction.

What I will have, is a totally unbiased approach to modding based on the fitness charter and general site-wide rules. As I don't know any of the posters personally, I can be as detached as need be.

Hi!! Hopefully I'll have the pleasure of making your acquaintance at some stage in the forum. You seem to have a great reputation with the other posters here judging by some of the comments. I don't think having an "applied level of knowledge" on the subject is neccessary to be a good mod. Hell it's probably a bad thing since personal opinions could come into play if you don't agree with what a poster says abotu a fitness topic. I know it shouldn't, but the mods are human too.

I do think that having a new impartial mod will lend alot more validity to the whole discipline process in that forum tho. I actually believe it's a gerat step by the admins and should give anyone who might feel like I do in ANY forum more faith in the whole process.

faceman

Jaysus this is all a bit mad.

Hagar

We have an "attack the post not the poster" policy,
I think we need another one, "mod the post not the poster".

Kur4mA

Hagar wrote: »

We have an "attack the post not the poster" policy,
I think we need another one, "mod the post not the poster".

That makes no sense...

Hanley

Dragan wrote: »

You thought G'em was only talking to you for more help? Then you clearly didn't actually get to know her at all in the time you spent talking to her, or training with her, or asking her questions on diet or answering her questions on powerlifting.

You see that's the thing. The more time I spent with her, the more I felt like that. It may or may not have been a personality clash, or I might just be a bad judge of people. But I can't help how I feel about someone.

If anything banning you from Team Test has made me treat you with kid gloves over here, specifically because i didn't want to give you the idea i was bullying you. What happens on Team Test is TT business. This is boards. Different countries, different Constitutions if you would.

I never asked for that. I'd have been MUCH happier being infracted and warned along the way so I could attempt to correct my behaviour instead of letting a whole case of things build up against me and being used now in a situation like this.

Now then, with regard to your banning from here. Something happened on a thread, i dealt with it as I saw fit, then i posted telling EVERYONE else that if something similar happened to just report the post or PM a Mod. Not to respond.

It happened again and you responded as you did. You were banned. In several PM's between us you have once again failed to see that THIS is the reason you were banned.

The first thing you said in the thread was this; http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55069545&postcount=32

That would have been fair enough and I wouldnt' have responded if I had not reported Ali's post and been told that it was ok to defend yourself.

The only post that you made relevant to the situation AFTER Ali's post and my report was this;

"I made it pretty clear that i wouldn't have any call outs and bull**** on this thread or forum."

There was no subsequent warnings of bans to be handed out to anyone who acted in the same manner that you ok'd earlier on.

When a Mod says something in a forum you act as they suggest. You don't go around because you feel a precedant was set and your in the mood. When a Mod says "don't do this, do x,y,z if you get called out" and you go ahead and do something anyway, what do you think should happen?

I reported a call out and attack on a poster. They responded and attacked back. I was told it was ok by YOU. If that's not the clearest case of mixed signles ever then I don't know what it is.

I'm fully aware what a mod says should be followed, but it's human nature to push the limits so when something is allowed (and i know for a fact it was allowed since I was the one who reported it) is it unreasonable to expect that once someone is given the chance to defend themselves with no disciplinary action the others won't follow suit?

The reason your ban was extended was because once again in PM's you pretty much ignored my point about just trying to do what the Mod's say and proceeded to tell me the reasons why you felt i had banned you, that Ali should have been banned and so forth.

Incorrect. I never said Ali should be banned. My point was about fair and equitable treatment to all posters.

Oh, and as for the whole saying hello issue? I said hello to you at the World's, your the one who just strolled on by. You have recived PM's a few days before comps wishing you the best of luck which you have ignored. When i try and interact with you in threads, make points off yours and ask you question outside of my Moderator role you ignore them also.

Ok I'm sorry, but that is a flat out lie. I haven't recieved any PMs from you wishing me luck, nor did you say hello to me. The only who did was Conor.

It's not a requirement for a user to reply everytime someone says something to them in a thread. I have stopped posting in many threads, and not responded to people at times even tho they're still quoting me because I felt I have said all that I have to say on a topic. It's not because I'm ignoring them or trying to be rude.

smashey

Hanley wrote: »

You see that's the thing. The more time I spent with her, the more I felt like that. It may or may not have been a personality clash, or I might just be a bad judge of people. But I can't help how I feel about someone.

How you feel about someone you know and have spent time with shouldn't have any bearing on what is posted in a given forum. The forum caters to all and tries to foster a "family" spirit where all are welcome.

As for being banned rather than infracted, this is at the mod's discretion.

Hagar

kyub wrote: »

That makes no sense...

It means leave your personal view of the poster out of it and just judge each post on its own merits. I find it hard to do sometimes. Sometimes I fail, but it's still my goal.

Dragan

Hanley wrote: »

Ok I'm sorry, but that is a flat out lie. I haven't recieved any PMs from you wishing me luck, nor did you say hello to me. The only who did was Conor.

Sorry, i didn't say that i had sent you goodluck PM's. Didn't mean it to come across that way. It was G'em who sent you the messages that you ignored.

I'm just putting out there that attempts have been made to bridge gaps which you ignored and you have explained why you did.

As for Falkirk, i definitely said hello to you the same way as i said hello to Malteaser. Why? Simple manners. You may or may not have heard it. It was as that crazy French guy was trying to pull something ridiculous after not training deads for 6 months! I like his style! You were just walking out the gap in the railing by the platform as i was walking in and i said "hello". You may or may not have heard it, my point is that i have been trying to bridge gaps despite it all.

Now then, as i said i am not getting into the same conversation as i got into via PM.

Something happened.

I then said no more of this type of thing.

There was more.

Your were banned.

Simple.

The reason i still have not lifted your ban is because you still have not even remotely acknowledged that i asked the Forum to do something IN PUBLIC and you went against that based off your own interpretation from a Private conversation about a different case.

You still don't see that though do you? The whole , a Mod asked people not to do something and you did something anyway thing?

For what it's worth, i still think you publically expressing how you feel about G'em in this thread is a bit low. I think if it was happening to someone who wasn't a Mod and wasn't in a Feedback thread that posts would be reported.

It would be like me posting in this thread how i really feel about you instead of just keeping it related to occurances on the board.

BossArky

As a regular reader and contributor to the fitness forum over the past year it is obvious that there is serious tension between the parties involved.

I'm not sure if dragging everything up on this thread will help either side. What happens in real life outside the boundaries of boards.ie will obviosuly effect your interactions with someone on here. However, this is not auditable by anyone here.

Everyone needs to swallow their pride, stand down, cool off and get back to the purpose of the fitness forum. Easier said that done.

You could probably do with more than one extra mod by the way. I'm not sure if having a non fitness guru (no offence Smashey) is the best choice. Let me propose rubadub as a potential extra neutral mod. He is always on the ball and level headed. Where are the other mods anyway (Jak, DaveIrl, WWM)?

Hanley

smashey wrote: »

How you feel about someone you know and have spent time with shouldn't have any bearing on what is posted in a given forum. The forum caters to all and tries to foster a "family" spirit where all are welcome.

As for being banned rather than infracted, this is at the mod's discretion.

I wholeheartedly agree. I only made reference to it since I was directly questioned on it and because I feel it explains why I did not reply to some of the PM's or posts.

It was my understanding that the infractions are slaps on the wrist for bad behaviour? And a way of monitoring things without getting the ban stick out? I know a mods actions are at their discretion, but my question is;

Is it fair** that instead of using a system that was put into place to monitor and correct minor out of line behaviour so that a poster can correct actions that are considered to be out of line, a mod can not do this and instead continue to give said poster rope so that when they finally do deserve a ban they also have a load of other incidences to be further held against them on the gallows to justify the extended ban?

**pre-emptive post: Hanley and all his subsidiary and associate corporations fully realise that "fair" is decided by the Boards.ie Gods and may or may nor reflect what the former party feels is "fair"!!

Dragan

BossArky wrote: »

You could probably do with more than one extra mod by the way. I'm not sure if having a non fitness guru (no offence Smashey) is the best choice. Let me propose rubadub as a potential extra neutral mod. He is always on the ball and level headed. Where are the other mods anyway (Jak, DaveIrl, WWM)?

Personally i don't want a Mod in who has oddles of knowledge about things ( the next time we need a Mod for that you can be Rub will at the top of the list ) i want a Mod who is good at Modding, impartial and people are happy with.

Me and G'em are happy, Hanley seems to be happy with the choice and has said he will be happier in the Forum from now on.

kaimera

smashey is the new neutral mod.

_blank_

waidaminnit.

Is Hanley unbanned now?

What is this thread for then?

Hanley

Dragan wrote: »

For what it's worth, i still think you publically expressing how you feel about G'em in this thread is a bit low. I think if it was happening to someone who wasn't a Mod and wasn't in a Feedback thread that posts would be reported.

It would be like me posting in this thread how i really feel about you instead of just keeping it related to occurances on the board.

This is a bit of a pandora's box. I could quite easily of replied to those PM's and said I didn't want anything to do with her and for her to leave me alone, but I'm aware I obviously upset her quite badly on Team Test when I did the same so I didn't want to revisit it unneccessarily. I only alluded to it now since it was inferred that I was rude by not responding and wanted to give a reason as to why it was the case. I stated earlier that I don't sugar coat things, and acknowledged that it is one of my failings, but it's just the way I am. I would never have mentioned any of this otherwise.