Chin Ups and Pull Ups

Hawk Wing

any tips for these? I find them extremely difficult, I struggle to do 4 x 4 sets

rubadub

Some discussion here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055237263

and a training technique here which worked for me

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55114632

Hawk Wing

thanks

farva

If I were you I'd avoid doing chins/ pull ups for the time being if you can only get 4. You should try using the lat pull down to build up your lats and biceps to help with the pull ups, try 4 sets of 6-8 reps (pulled down into your chest, not behind your neck) try to challange yourself on this, you should be struggling by your 7th/8th rep. You should progress up the weights pretty fast.

For chins you should do bicep work like 4 sets of 6-8 reps on a curl bar or dumbells or both. I do a fair amount of bicep work and when I started out in the gym over a year ago, I'd struggle to get 4/5 chins and that was at about 65kgs. Now I'm 72kgs and I can do 17 chins, the last time that I tried, about a month ago.

rubadub

farva wrote: »

If I were you I'd avoid doing chins/ pull ups for the time being if you can only get 4. .

I am not so sure. Most sites I have checked are pretty much saying if you want to get good at chins, then do chins.

4 is a lowish amount, I know where you are coming from, but low reps will still build strength, and he should be improving quick enough. I would HIGHLY recommend negatives. Do the 4 reps, get back up on a box or chair and do another 4 nice controlled negatives straight after the first 4 reps.

Chins involve a lot more than just biceps, that is why they are so good! Doing just curls is not going to be as good as doing chins and finishing with negatives. Doing proper chins will get the muscles used to all working together.

farva

rubadub wrote: »

I am not so sure. Most sites I have checked are pretty much saying if you want to get good at chins, then do chins.

4 is a lowish amount, I know where you are coming from, but low reps will still build strength, and he should be improving quick enough. I would HIGHLY recommend negatives. Do the 4 reps, get back up on a box or chair and do another 4 nice controlled negatives straight after the first 4 reps.

Chins involve a lot more than just biceps, that is why they are so good! Doing just curls is not going to be as good as doing chins and finishing with negatives. Doing proper chins will get the muscles used to all working together.

I know what you mean and if you want pure strength 3 or 4 reps would be ideal, I know that I'm no expert but I recommended building your bieceps first for 2 reasons; first because if you are struggling to do 4 reps on anything and you cant drop the weight it can be very very hard to get the 5th rep, and when you can't get there, it can be very demoralising and make you loose interest very fast. (I'm in a similar position at the moment with weighted tricep dips with my bodyweight+20/25kg... its damn hard to push out extra rep!!!!)

And second because something similar has worked fairly well for me, I admit I wasnt aiming to do lots of chins but after a few months I had to start adding weight on with a dips belt.

I could be completely wrong and I don't mean take what I say as gospel, but I'm just trying to offer advice based on my own experiences.

rubadub

farva wrote: »

; first because if you are struggling to do 4 reps on anything and you cant drop the weight it can be very very hard to get the 5th rep, and when you can't get there, it can be very demoralising and make you loose interest very fast.

Very true, I was only saying it in another thread earlier. Saying I used to aim for 8 reps and then try for more until I get to 12 and then increase weight. But if you are working low reps then going from 4-5 is twice the increase as 8-9reps.

This is why I recommended the negatives immediately after the 4 reps. Another method would be to kip on the last one or 2 reps, kipping is where you swing your legs to get momentum up. This might get an extra 5th rep, and then aim to kip less and less till you have 5 nice slow ones. That is yet another technique I used to do, just do 4 with perfect form, chest to the bar, slow and controlled, next time try a quick 5 reps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWT1sMsxcNM

Colm_OReilly

The biceps aren't the prime movers in pull ups. In fact, in a pull up the biceps work is reduced.

As an anecdote, one guy started with us in October, and could not do one pull up. He did a shed load of jumping pull ups, progressing to controlling the negative and reducing the power in his jump. Last week he strolled in a busted out 5 pull ups in a row.

farva

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

The biceps aren't the prime movers in pull ups. In fact, in a pull up the biceps work is reduced.

As an anecdote, one guy started with us in October, and could not do one pull up. He did a shed load of jumping pull ups, progressing to controlling the negative and reducing the power in his jump. Last week he strolled in a busted out 5 pull ups in a row.

me and rubadub were talking more about chins rather than pull ups with regard to the bicep training. The back (lats) is the primary muscle group used for pull ups isnt it? With biceps being the secondary?

rubadub, thats interesting about the negatives, I would never have thought of that myself nor have I ever tried them. I see your point on the kipping technique, but it looks a bit like cheating tough;)

Naos

Did my first pull ups ever today at the end of my weight session.

Far more intense than expected, look forward to them next round

Thanks for the links Rubadub

Edit: A negative, is that just when you're coming down from the pullup/chinup ?

Hanley

One thing that REALLY helped me to increase my chins (that's when your palms face away from you right?) was this..

1) Find your max. If you can do 4x4, it's probably 5/6

2) Half it. Do 5 sets with this number.

3) The following week do 6 sets with the same amount of reps

4) The week after that, do 7 sets.

5) Either retest your max, or drop back to 5 sets, but add an extra rep and repeat the whole cycle.

Make sure you're training pulldowns (do them strict for the best carryover to pull/chin ups) and rows hard too.

rubadub

Naos wrote: »

Edit: A negative, is that just when you're coming down from the pullup/chinup ?

Yes. You can have a small chair, or a box. I keep it to one side and stand on just one foot. Get straight back up after your normal reps. You could also use a spotter, this way they could add just enough push to get you up again. Get to the highest position and have a nice controlled descent. Some gyms have contraptions to help you.

farva wrote: »

I see your point on the kipping technique, but it looks a bit like cheating tough;)

It is cheating in chinning competitions! It is just another way of getting a negative. Instead of a spotter helping you, it is momentum getting you back up. But you are not in contest with anybody. It is like doing single arm curls and using the other arm to assist a lift to get a negative out.

Hanley wrote: »

my chins (that's when your palms face away from you right?)

It is not set in stone, but 99% of sites/literature would say a pullup is palms away, and chins are palms facing you.

I think of a pullup as pulling myself up a wall (palms away), and with a chinup (palms facing) you are more likely to have your chin over the bar at the end.

More discussion on which to do here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055237263
I actually did some mixed grip ones last night, right palm facing, left palm away, not as awkward/uncomfortable as you might think.
Have a look at this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZOjNz6bjIs

Linoge

^^ That guy is a legend. Esp the complete pull ups @ 45 secs

BossArky

Class video. Got some good ideas for next time.

Aedh Baclamh

Haha that's class. I can do about 8 reps 3 times...that's it then. Think I might try what Hanley was saying earlier.

rubadub

Linoge wrote: »

^^ That guy is a legend.

Its all the better since he is in normal clothes, with glasses, looks like a bit of a nerd but could probably kick the living crap out of most people!

There was some other videos with lads on a beach doing some crazy stuff. Will try and find it later.

He still hasnt got a patch on Dominic Lacasse, the lad defies gravity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Otqz-RUOM

BossArky

rubadub wrote: »

Its all the better since he is in normal clothes, with glasses, looks like a bit of a nerd but could probably kick the living crap out of most people!

haha yeah he looks like a weed. I liked the part where he was jumping up and switching hands.

If you flick through the video you can see that he recorded it on separate days (or else he moved the camera in the middle and started in the shade and finished in the sun)... but wore the same clothes for continuity.

Floyd Soul

The only advice I can give is to keep doing them regularly. Work at them for three consecutive days, then take two days rest and try again and you should soon see improvement.

They are fantastic exercises, targeting your arms, back, chest and shoulders.

Three months ago, I could hardly do six, and now my max is thirty. So just persevere!

Supercell

rubadub wrote: »

Have a look at this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZOjNz6bjIs

That is totally insane, that guy must have shoulders and back of pure iron, what's more impressive is that he's jut doing it in the park without showing off what must be a seriously impressive physique.

I need to train harder, I still can't do one ffs

farva

Floyd Soul wrote: »

Three months ago, I could hardly do six, and now my max is thirty. So just persevere!

That seems to be amazing progress to me!!! How did you manage that? Is that chins or pull ups?

rubadub

Floyd Soul wrote: »

Three months ago, I could hardly do six, and now my max is thirty. So just persevere!

That is a huge increase. Had you trained them at all before. e.g. were you lifting and quite strong but had just not practised them before?

Did you get such increases in any other exercises?

How much and how were you training for the 3 consecutive days? what other training were you doing?

Floyd Soul

It went from six to thirty with the pullups, and 6 to twenty with the chin ups.

I just did them every second day and always tried to max out. I do pushups as well so my arms were already relatively strong.

rubadub

rubadub wrote: »

There was some other videos with lads on a beach doing some crazy stuff.

This was the guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFLyc417PQQ

If you double click that youtube should open with more links on the side, or just click this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFLyc417PQQ

jumbopalumbo

had alot of trouble with wide grip chins myself, i took Arnies advice and set myself a goal of 40 chins in my workout and would just do as many sets as it would take get 40, so first set i might get 5 and just rest and go again till i got 40, at first took bout 10 sets but it improves! and also keep bodyfat low der hard enough as it is without luggin up any extr0

rubadub

I just tried something new today (well new to me!). I have tried chins using one arm more than the other, i.e. pulling with the left more and the right to assist. This works ok, but just now I tried a mixed grip. One palm towards you, one away. You work the arm with the palm facing you more, the other hand is used to allow you do a slow negative. This allows you to twist around a lot easier just like a real one arm chin.

Might be old news but works well for me.

Also I have used a scale to isometrically pull with 1 arm. Stand on the scale and I am 75kg, then pullup and it reads 25-30kg

EDIT: it is old news! some good tips here http://www.beastskills.com/OneArmPull.htm

Lockstep

Chin ups are by far my favorite exercise. I can only do around 6-8 in a go but I love doing em all the same.

Still need to work on pull ups though.

davyjose

rubadub wrote: »

This was the guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFLyc417PQQ

If you double click that youtube should open with more links on the side, or just click this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFLyc417PQQ

I've started doing L's while I chin-up, and it tends to look a little like this guy (only obviously nothing near as good ) - well, with that lateral kinda movement. I tell ya I havent had Doms on my abs like this in a LONG time. I only started because my bar is too close to the ground and I was having to arch my back too much. Gonna keep it up.

WHIP IT!

davyjose wrote: »

I've started doing L's while I chin-up, and it tends to look a little like this guy (only obviously nothing near as good ) - well, with that lateral kinda movement. I tell ya I havent had Doms on my abs like this in a LONG time. I only started because my bar is too close to the ground and I was having to arch my back too much. Gonna keep it up.

Same as that, I actually have started inadvertently doing them while doing chins/pull-ups on the rings and you do feel a grat squeeze ir your stomach.

rubadub

A swinging muscleup on a bar is my next goal. I am doing 6 chins with 20kg on a belt now. 6 dips with 20kg on rings too. ~75kg bodyweight

Vegeta

rubadub wrote: »

A swinging muscleup on a bar is my next goal. I am doing 6 chins with 20kg on a belt now. 6 dips with 20kg on rings too. ~75kg bodyweight

Animal in fairness

davyjose

rubadub wrote: »

A swinging muscleup on a bar is my next goal. I am doing 6 chins with 20kg on a belt now. 6 dips with 20kg on rings too. ~75kg bodyweight

I would imagine wrist strength is probably the most difficult thing there?
Yeah, it is animal though.

Hanley

If you can generate enough for and speed out of the bottom of the pull up you should get in a position to be able to just dip your bodyweight up. Anybody got any ideas how hard this is? Is it a brute strength thing or is technique very important to?? Looks like a cool thing to try out.

Cookpasbabtridg

Hi folks, speaking of wrist strength, what's the best exercise for building up wrists and forearms.. my biceps are coming on ok but just wondering what people find good for the rest of the arms...

Im starting off on the pull ups/chin ups and finding it tough enough but gonna stick at it and hopefully ill see some improvement soon.

thanks a lot.

Dragan

Hanley wrote: »

If you can generate enough for and speed out of the bottom of the pull up you should get in a position to be able to just dip your bodyweight up. Anybody got any ideas how hard this is? Is it a brute strength thing or is technique very important to?? Looks like a cool thing to try out.

It's a bit of both. Crossfit have some good video's og guys coming in who had the tools to do it ( i.e strong chins and dips over bars, para's and rings ) and after some coaching in the technique of it they would be able to get them.

Largely, it's a technique thing though.

rubadub

Dragan wrote: »

It's a bit of both.

Yes. Colm here can do them on rings. He had a video of a lad doing weighted ones, might even have been himself. On here they were saying it is easier on rings, though the author is Tyler who sells and uses rings. The rings will rotate with your arms so may be easier on the wrists. I cannot get the hang of the false grip thing. I am going to try the swing one as shown on the bottom of the beastskill link. It is like kipping (cheating!) using momentum to get yourself up. Then I will hopefully progress and try non-swinging ones.

There are lots of tips out there, swinging and practising explosive pullups (not chins).

I think I could do them easier on a bar than rings but I have no room at home. Transform told me there are chin bars in cabinteely park so I am going to go in for a look. Also the swinging action will mean a lot of force would act on the bar, so I would not trust a home chin bar.

Then one arm chins will be on my list! This guy is doing both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd7RQo6Yocc

various hand positions here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QSzXv3CxrM

This guy uses the false grip on a bar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk6gtQ3Sl5o

Cookpasbabtridg wrote: »

Hi folks, speaking of wrist strength, what's the best exercise for building up wrists and forearms.. my biceps are coming on ok but just wondering what people find good for the rest of the arms...

Stick a towel over the chinning bar and do some. I can now do pullups on some pretty thin rope which is doubled up, maybe as thick as my index finger when not doubled up. I also have 40mm diameter PVC tubes on my chinning bar, this works grip and forearms incredibly well, even just hanging from them. A lad on a US forum (my link) had 2 baseballs hanging from his bar and just holds onto them and does chins. There is also a forum just about grip strength! http://www.gripboard.com I signed up yesterday, only activated today, seems active though.

WHIP IT!

Good Lord, the guy in that first video almost squeezes an entire workout into about 60 seconds of one-arms pulls, muscle-ups and regular pulls! :eek:

Fair play to him...

Edwardius

You'll need a false grip to do them on the bar too. Rubadub, did you mention you have rings? Try to do false grip pullups on the rings to get accustomed to the movement, with the amount of pullups and dips you do, it should be no problem. Be warned, the transition point kills the elbows if you fail at that point and the dip you pull yourself into is likely to bo the lowest and most painful one ever but you'll feel extremely manly and shouty when you make it up! It's possible to kip into one on the rings but you'll still need the false grip. overall: learn how to do the false grip!

Re grip strength: towel pullups and rope climbs as mentioned. Also, some of the crossfit crowd over in that America use 2" pullup bars mounted on bearings so they're allowed rotate. Also you can use sledgehammers (hold the handle with the hammer part on your thumb side. Unbalance it to the extent that you can hold it in a stable fashion. The guys who bend nails apparently use this method. Also, deadlifts with a pronated grip should help too.

rubadub

Dead Ed wrote: »

You'll need a false grip to do them on the bar too. Rubadub, did you mention you have rings?

Well most videos on youtube do not seem to use the false grip on the bar. I do have rings and just cannot get the hang of it. I might try the progressions again, you can lower the rings and keep the feet out infront and do pullups with the false grip that way. Thing is my rings are on a bar at home, no room for muscleups. And I expect the bars in the park will be too low too. Most videos of people doing muscleups on rings have them attached really high up in proper gyms. I suppose if I find a high bar I can fling the buckle over.

I might try the false grip on my bar at home, just doing normal pullups. I just think I will find it easier with a normal grip, will see how it goes.

WHIP IT!

Could ya do it like this Rub? Aint suggesting it's easy, far from it - but this fella manages with his rings suspended from a chin-up bar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0OhH3yVNcU

rubadub

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Could ya do it like this Rub? Aint suggesting it's easy, far from it - but this fella manages with his rings suspended from a chin-up bar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0OhH3yVNcU

Just gave it a go, but couldn't do it:(.
My bar is a little lower, but still no excuse! it can physically be done on mine, I thought my head would hit the bar, but it won't. I just can't do the false grip well at all. That guy said he can do 10 pullups and 6 dips with good form, which is OK going but not unusual, just proves technique is important. I could do more pullups & dips than that so maybe I should just try the false grip more. Killer on the elbows, so don't want to push it any more today.

Supercell

So I was youtubing pullups and saw this and just feckin felt embarrassed at my own pathetic tries!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daG4sh38BWI

rubadub

FFS I thought I had heard of every perversion in the book!, searched "girl pullup" on youtube and got hits of pornstars wearing pairs of huggies pullup nappies!:eek:

Supercell

rubadub wrote: »

FFS I thought I had heard of every perversion in the book!, searched "girl pullup" on youtube and got hits of pornstars wearing pairs of huggies pullup nappies!:eek:

Lol, in my defence I didnt try looking up girls deliberately , that was a pleasant surprise.

Hawk Wing

doing chins every chance I get at the moment, up to 7x3 now

Edwardius

rubadub wrote: »

Well most videos on youtube do not seem to use the false grip on the bar. I do have rings and just cannot get the hang of it. I might try the progressions again, you can lower the rings and keep the feet out infront and do pullups with the false grip that way. Thing is my rings are on a bar at home, no room for muscleups. And I expect the bars in the park will be too low too. Most videos of people doing muscleups on rings have them attached really high up in proper gyms. I suppose if I find a high bar I can fling the buckle over.

I might try the false grip on my bar at home, just doing normal pullups. I just think I will find it easier with a normal grip, will see how it goes.

Maybe find a high sturdy tree branch nearby and throw them around that. Keep tryin the false grip pullups and try again for the MU when the elbows stop hurting!

Hawk Wing

I can strongly reccomend the "many and often" way of thinking, up 4x8 in the space of three weeks, can actually manage 10 in the first set

Hawk Wing

Just an update, by doing as many as you can every day, I'm now up to 4x15 at 83kg bodyweight, my eventual aim is 30 in a row, a bit to go yet