Fidel steps down

darkman2

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7252109.stm



Another blow to communisim but definately one of the characters of the 20th century even if his politics were a bit 'wayward'.

Jesus Wept

*points at darkman2

COMMUNIST!!!

GET HIM!

gerTheGreat

Cuba has one of the best, most efficient health care systems in the world. He seems to be a principled man, but despite that, I don't think he is as great as everyone makes him out to be. He regularly interned and executed opponents, he played a big part in the Cuban Missile Crisis, (although, it was only a year after the Bay of Pigs, and he probably didn't expect to bring the world to the brink of extinction.)

darkman2

gerTheGreat wrote: »

Cuba has one of the best, most efficient health care systems in the world. He seems to be a principled man, but despite that, I don't think he is as great as everyone makes him out to be. He regularly interned and executed opponents, he played a big part in the Cuban Missile Crisis, (although, it was only a year after the Bay of Pigs, and he probably didn't expect to bring the world to the brink of extinction.)

I never thought he was great. Everyone was always waiting for him to die or something just to get rid of him. Communism does not work no matter how good their health care system is.

Rb

Big lol at the comments by Bush.

"Free and fair elections", such as those held in the US. Yes, that's exactly what they need.
"We're here to help" i.e if they don't go democratic, we'll fcking make 'em.

Dudess

darkman2 wrote: »

I never thought he was great. Everyone was always waiting for him to die or something just to get rid of him. Communism does not work no matter how good their health care system is.

I'm no red, but isn't Cuba an example of how communism does work (to an extent)? I'd have objections to a number of Castro's policies but he was no Stalin, Pol Pot or Ceaucescu.

Pighead

Dudess wrote: »

I'm no red, but isn't Cuba an example of how communism does work (to an extent)? I'd have objections to a number of Castro's policies but he was no Stalin, Pol Pot or Ceaucescu.

Shite economy and millions of Cubans fleeing to Florida would suggest its not quite the rose garden that Castro would have us believe.

Mr. CooL ICE

Dudess wrote: »

I'm no red, but isn't Cuba an example of how communism does work (to an extent)? I'd have objections to a number of Castro's policies but he was no Stalin, Pol Pot or Ceaucescu.

COMMUNIST!!!

GET HER!



As crazy as it is to have a successful band made of welsh commies, the Manics wouldn't have had lunch with Castro simply because he was a communist leader.

Mr. CooL ICE

Pighead wrote: »

Shite economy and millions of Cubans fleeing to Florida would suggest its not quite the rose garden that Castro would have us believe.

That happens when any regime ends/begins tbh. Not necessarily out of fear of the new leader, but it will take a while for the economy to sort itself out, and in the meantime, everyone packs their stuff and goes for a rather long swim.

RxQueen

Dudess wrote: »

I'm no red, but isn't Cuba an example of how communism does work (to an extent)? I'd have objections to a number of Castro's policies but he was no Stalin, Pol Pot or Ceaucescu.

+1
QFT

Dudess

LordChessington wrote: »

COMMUNIST!!!

GET HER!

Damn! Foiled so easily!

As crazy as it is to have a successful band made of welsh commies, the Manics wouldn't have had lunch with Castro simply because he was a communist leader.

Huh?? I was under the impression that they would have adored him. Can you elaborate further? I'm intrigued.

Pighead

LordChessington wrote: »

That happens when any regime ends/begins tbh. Not necessarily out of fear of the new leader, but it will take a while for the economy to sort itself out, and in the meantime, everyone packs their stuff and goes for a rather long swim.

Its been shiter than shite for the past 20 years. How long does it need to get back on track!

BlitzKrieg

wait wait wait?

he stepped down?


HAHA!

Do you know how much this rubs it into the face of every extreme right ringer (not to mention the CIA) out there?


first he actually survives his time in office, and secondly the little banging drum I hear when Cuba is brought up is that Castro would never give up power bla bla bla he's a petty little dictator who will never let go of cuba.

And now he is simply stepping down.


Fantastic.


its not so much the politics that has me hopping around its the sheer unexpected simplicity of this ending.


I kinda like it.

boneless

I'm a Commie... get me!!!

Just to answer a post above... the Cuban economy is in a mess due to an illegal trade blockade enforced by the USA. Helms/Burton Act I believe it is called. The UN has voted for this act to be dropped as it is illegal under international law but the Land of the Free and the Mighty Dollar coerce other nations into compliance.

Beruthiel

Dudess wrote: »

I'm no red, but isn't Cuba an example of how communism does work (to an extent)?

I wouldn't want to be a joe soap Cuban, dirt poor and feck all way to get out of it.

Written by a Cuban Journalist

MIN2511

rb_ie wrote: »

Big lol at the comments by Bush.

"Free and fair elections", such as those held in the US. Yes, that's exactly what they need.
"We're here to help" i.e if they don't go democratic, we'll fcking make 'em.

hehehehe, brilliant!

I think it's about time he did step down. He's been in hospital for a while now

Mr. CooL ICE

Pighead wrote: »

Its been shiter than shite for the past 20 years. How long does it need to get back on track!

Considering the economic sanctions imposed on the country and the (supposedly) 637 assassination attempts, Cuba has done ok for itself. I'm no economist, but I reckon the it had a very good chance of living up to the ideal socialist state if it wasn't for those outside influences

Dennis the Stone

MIN2511 wrote: »

hehehehe, brilliant!

I think it's about time he did step down. He's been in hospital for a while now

I hope he stepped down carefully, unlike this time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWzUi4Cq2c8

darkman2

What communism is meant to be is 'equality' - an admirable agenda however in reality communism is 'equality in poverty' and some are more equal then others - every communist leader for example has always lived in luxury off the backs of the equal peasants. Communism, by its nature, slows technological and scientific and economic advance to a crawl because it drains the population of motivation. A drive to succed is not tolerated under a proper communist regime.

williambonney

boneless wrote: »

I'm a Commie... get me!!!

Just to answer a post above... the Cuban economy is in a mess due to an illegal trade blockade enforced by the USA. Helms/Burton Act I believe it is called. The UN has voted for this act to be dropped as it is illegal under international law but the Land of the Free and the Mighty Dollar coerce other nations into compliance.

UN veto’s are like the UN itself where the United States is concerned, a complete joke. Israel can murder, maim and torture Palestinians and illegally invade their neighbours with impunity. The United States will simply veto any motion of sanction against them.

toiletduck

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Do you know how much this rubs it into the face of every extreme right ringer (not to mention the CIA) out there?


first he actually survives his time in office, and secondly the little banging drum I hear when Cuba is brought up is that Castro would never give up power bla bla bla he's a petty little dictator who will never let go of cuba.

And now he is simply stepping down.


Fantastic.

Yeah, after 40 years as dictator he hands power over to his brother. That really shows that nasty righter-wingers/anybody who was critical of the Castro regieme. Boy are our faces red.

BlitzKrieg

Yeah, after 40 years as dictator he hands power over to his brother. That really shows that nasty righter-wingers/anybody who was critical of the Castro regieme. Boy are our faces red.

like I said it wasnt the politics that was making me laugh, it was the unexpected simplicity of it all. Especially when I would hear how some people would talk about Castro taking Cuba to the grave with him.

i admit even I (a bouncy lefty righty upside downy sort of person) didnt expect him to leave office til he was dead.

Also the national assembly will have to vote for his brother to stay in power according to the article:

The National Assembly is widely expected to elect 76-year-old Raul Castro as his successor, although analysts say there is speculation about a possible generational jump with Vice-President Carlos Lage Davila, 56, a leading contender.

Mahatma coat

boneless wrote: »

I!!!

Just to answer a post above... the Cuban economy is in a mess due to an illegal trade blockade enforced by the USA. Helms/Burton Act I believe it is called. The UN has voted for this act to be dropped as it is illegal under international law but the Land of the Free and the Mighty Dollar coerce other nations into compliance.

+1

I honestly thought he had died last year and they were doin a Kruschev with him.

not surprised to see that Raul is the main contender for the 'throne'.

pwd

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/19/castro.battle

same news presented from a slightly more sympathetic standpoint

tallaght01

gerTheGreat wrote: »

Cuba has one of the best, most efficient health care systems in the world.

What do you mean by that exactly?

I often hear this fact from randomers, but i can never find any evidence for it.

I've no axe to grind with Cuba, but a lot of babies die from infections over there, for eg, that we would treat with antibiotics.

I've just had a look at the WHO's health stats for Cuba.
Ireland performs better than Cuba in every area that I looked at...and we have a shoite healthcare system

cjt156

I'd have serious reservations about Communism in general and about Cuba in particluar; I'm a slavering, baby-garrotting right-winger on most issues.

However; if we compare Cuba to the US-supported regimes that have been in existence during Fidel's tenure the true picture emerges.
El Salvador; Guatamala; Haiti; Chile; Argentina; Colombia - try comparing Cuba with the rate of literacy or infant mortality, the education and health systems and even the human rights issues in those countries down the decades.

Remember too that Castro started out essentially as a Cuban nationalist with a Socialist leaning; it took US intervention to push Cuba into the arms of the USSR.

tallaght01

cjt156 wrote: »

El Salvador; Guatamala; Haiti; Chile; Argentina; Colombia - try comparing Cuba with the rate of literacy or infant mortality, the education and health systems and even the human rights issues in those countries down the decades.

That;s somehting we've known all along. Compare Cuba's healthcare system to other poor south american countries, and it does very well. The comparison with Haiti isn't particularly vaild, due to the differences in healthcare expenditure. But overall Cuba does very well, alongside the above countries.

That's far removed from it being one of the best healthcare systems in the world, though.

cjt156

tallaght01 wrote: »

That's far removed from it being one of the best healthcare systems in the world, though.

I agree that gets bandied about a bit to freely.
I don't believe it to be the case; I reckon it was once described as one of the best in the Third World/developing World/(insert innofensive-equivalent expression here) & then the pinko-liberal-bed-wetting-Jihad ran with it.

pwd

The average life expectancy is higher in cuba than in the usa.

L31mr0d

tallaght01 wrote: »

What do you mean by that exactly?

I often hear this fact from randomers, but i can never find any evidence for it.

I've no axe to grind with Cuba, but a lot of babies die from infections over there, for eg, that we would treat with antibiotics.

I've just had a look at the WHO's health stats for Cuba.
Ireland performs better than Cuba in every area that I looked at...and we have a shoite healthcare system

It means they've merely watched Mike Moores movie "Sicko" and are just quoting off his babblings ad nauseum.

Most peoples knowledge of the actual situation in Cuba extends about as far as the sleeves on their Che Guevara T-Shirts.

kevmy

Yeah Cuba has some great doctors and some pretty good academics but then they have no plumbers or carpenters.

I prefer to live in a place where you can **** in a toilet than get great plastic surgery done.

Undoubtedly America's embargo has hurt them and he's not the worst but I don't think many people want to move from Ireland to Cuba any time soon.

tallaght01

pwd wrote: »

The average life expectancy is higher in cuba than in the usa.

Not true

Red Hand

Its sort of funny how the USA has engaged in a long drawn out terrorist operation in Cuba, and yet still continues to be the main leader in the "War on Terror".

In a way Castro was forced into his position as a communist dictator (not sure if dictator is the right word). The thought of a successful socialist government where typical US elite investment oppurtunities aren't readily available, always sends shockwaves through Washington.

Rossibaby

cuba is known to have brilliant health care and what fide lhas done for the people of cuba is brilliant over the years. if the embargo was lifteed by the usa and had never taken place would be not all agree that cuba would be way better than it is now and therefore be quite a successful socialist state.i hate whne people say communism doesnt work every right winger that knows nothing uters it at some stage.so if the usa treated cuba fairly would this socialist country not be possibly a very very succesful nation...i think yes

Rossibaby

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Its sort of funny how the USA has engaged in a long drawn out terrorist operation in Cuba, and yet still continues to be the main leader in the "War on Terror".

In a way Castro was forced into his position as a communist dictator (not sure if dictator is the right word). The thought of a successful socialist government where typical US elite investment oppurtunities aren't readily available, always sends shockwaves through Washington.

nice post

tallaght01

Rossibaby wrote: »

cuba is known to have brilliant health care

Known by whom? And in comparison to what countries?

Latchy

He has outlived most of the leaders of the western world of the past 40 years or longer .

How many failed attempts were there on his life ?

Dennis the Stone

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Its sort of funny how the USA has engaged in a long drawn out terrorist operation in Cuba, and yet still continues to be the main leader in the "War on Terror".

In a way Castro was forced into his position as a communist dictator (not sure if dictator is the right word). The thought of a successful socialist government where typical US elite investment oppurtunities aren't readily available, always sends shockwaves through Washington.

True. Thread should be closed now.

Red Hand

Well, to be honest, Cuba has stagnated over the last 50 years, both due to US policy, and Castro and his government's decisions. I doubt that many of its people would be willing to go for communism now if they had a choice, or even mild socialism (welfare state type system) as in Scandinavia.

They've been burned badly.

cjt156

Rossibaby wrote: »

i hate whne people say communism doesnt work every right winger that knows nothing uters it at some stage

Do you want to provide evidence of a successful Communist regime?

Rossibaby

another one of the favourite quotes by right wingers....communism has failed in the past but not because of the theory itself

and tallaght,it has better health care that USA,and by whom i mean most intelligent people

Dudess

I'm far from a right-winger, but apart from certain positives about Castro's regime, I'm racking my brains trying to think of a communist society that "works" or "worked".

Communism can only "work" through coercion. And that in itself makes it a failure.

tallaght01

Rossibaby wrote: »

another one of the favourite quotes by right wingers....communism has failed in the past but not because of the theory itself

and tallaght,it has better health care that USA,and by whom i mean most intelligent people

What do you mean by better healthcare? I agree it's more equitable.

And what intelligent people?

Like I said, I have no axe to grind with cuba, but I'm looking at their health indices here, and they're not better than those for first world countries

AckwelFoley

gerTheGreat wrote: »

Cuba has one of the best, most efficient health care systems in the world. He seems to be a principled man, but despite that, I don't think he is as great as everyone makes him out to be. He regularly interned and executed opponents, he played a big part in the Cuban Missile Crisis, (although, it was only a year after the Bay of Pigs, and he probably didn't expect to bring the world to the brink of extinction.)

lol.. u watchin 2 much Michael moore son.

Load of codswallop.

AckwelFoley

Dudess wrote: »

I'm far from a right-winger, but apart from certain positives about Castro's regime, I'm racking my brains trying to think of a communist society that "works" or "worked".

Communism can only "work" through coercion. And that in itself makes it a failure.

Correct.

Communism is a great idea. but id forgets about one thinh.. human nature.
Some ppl will want to work harder than others and need to be rewarded for this.

tallaght01

snyper wrote: »

lol.. u watchin 2 much john moore son.

Load of codswallop.

They have a very efficient health service, considering the small amount they spend on healthcare. But it doesn't make it one of the best healthcare systems.

I'm just looking at their stats for infant mortality aswell. In most developed countries, about 70% of infant mortality is made up of severaly preterm babies, or those with severe genetic abnormalities at birth. Cuba has much lower ratesof deaths from both,depite not having especially advanced neonatal care. I wonder are they calling these deaths "stillbirths" or something, so avoiding having them in their infant mortality stats?

Dudess

snyper wrote: »

lol.. u watchin 2 much john moore son.

Load of codswallop.

Obviously so little a fan of Michael Moore you even got his name wrong!

AckwelFoley

Dudess wrote: »

Obviously so little a fan of Michael Moore you even got his name wrong!

Michael moore. :x

Im very sick today..


actually i could do with some heal;th care.. me head is killing me!

tallaght01

Just noticed they have 3 times the death rate from birth asphyxia than America. Suggests petty poor obstetric care, in first world terms too.

AckwelFoley

tallaght01 wrote: »

Just noticed they have 3 times the death rate from birth asphyxia than America. Suggests petty poor obstetric care, in first world terms too.

Cuba is not first world is it?

tallaght01

snyper wrote: »

Cuba is not first world is it?

No, absoloutely not, but people have been saying that their healthcare is as good as that in 1st world countries. So, I was just trawling throgh the stats to see of there's any truth to it, because that's never been my understanding of the situation.