HD-DVD has almost lost the war

um7y1h83ge06nx

Saw this in RTE news :

Toshiba nears HD DVD surrender
Monday, 18 February 2008 08:23
Consumers and investors cheered an impending end to a format war for next-generation DVDs, with share gains for both Toshiba, on the verge of abandoning its HD DVD discs, and Sony, the leader of the rival Blu-ray camp.

Toshiba shares jumped 6% as analysts praised its move to cut its losses, while Sony, whose technology is set to become the industry standard for high-definition home DVDs, rose 2%.

Both formats have the space to hold high-definition movies, but growing support from Hollywood and big US retailers such as Wal-Mart Stores has given Blu-ray a crushing lead.

AdvertisementHowever, overall sales so far have made up only a small portion of the $24 billion home DVD sector, as shoppers, faced with machines that played only one type of disc or the other, have held back.

Toshiba said today that no decisions had been made on HD DVD, but a company source told Reuters over the weekend that the company was in the final stage of planning its exit.

An end to the war means consumers can now be sure they won't be stuck with a 21st century equivalent of Betamax - Sony's videotape technology that lost out to VHS in the 1980s - and should help accelerate the shift to the new DVD.

At the core of both formats are blue lasers, which have a shorter wavelength than red lasers used in current DVD equipment, enabling discs to hold up to five times as much data.

Toshiba had billed its format as less costly for the industry as it allowed some existing DVD-making equipment to be reused, but Blu-ray allowed for more content to be packed onto each disc.

Toshiba will likely suffer losses of hundreds of millions of dollars to scrap production of its equipment and other steps to withdraw from the business. But analysts gave high marks to Toshiba's quick move to pull the plug on HD DVD just two years after launching its first players. It took Sony more than a decade to quit Betamax.

Thought I'd post it here as it's relevant to console owners.

Looks like I won't be getting the HD-DVD add-on for my 360, wonder will Microsoft decide to respond with a Blu-Ray player?

Makes the PS3 a bit more tempting as well.

yoyo

I think Toshiba have actually completely pulled out now lol, better format lost this one

Nick

chamlis

yoyo wrote: »

I think Toshiba have actually completely pulled out now lol, better format lost this one

Nick

As was Betamax

Genghiz Cohen

Wait, better format? I thought BluRay was better and that's why Sony backed it.
Why is HD-DVD better?

dazftw

yoyo wrote: »

I think Toshiba have actually completely pulled out now lol, better format lost this one

Nick

How was it better? If it was better it would have won!

Varik

it was better when they used mpeg 4 and blu used 2 ,now both use 4 no diff but cost and size

Azza

From my understanding of it the difference in terms of picture quality are non existent. Both currently use the same codec so there is no difference except in some of the first blue ray titles which used a video codec not as good at the one they are both currently use. Audio wise they both are the same. Blu-Ray has a higher storage capacity but its not really been used. Again first generation blu-ray discs used a lower storage capacity than HD-DVD's but that has since ended. Both formats have had improvements made to add more storage on their discs but again they have been not used as there is no need for them. Also HD-DVD first generation discs had better bonus options like picture in picture but blu ray has that now as well. HD-DVD are region free while Blu-Ray is region locked (3 regions as opposed to 6 on DVD) I believe copyright protection is tougher on Blu-Ray than on HD-DVD


Incidently microsoft have not ruled out making blu-ray player add on for the Xbox360.

r3nu4l

Both formats have good and bad points, Google is your friend

As a PS3 owner, I'm breathing a sigh of relief

mathias

Blu-Ray has a higher storage capacity but its not really been used.

I believe this is the key and blu rays ace in the hole , though it will mean nothing to home users ,

As demo'd at CES this year , blu ray can be made to hold 3.5 hours of Digital 4K cinema.
Movie studios are pushing like crazy to get cinemas digital in order to bring down distribution costs , and a high capacity disk is needed for that , HD-DVD was not up to the job , so the studios baled in favour of Blu-ray.

Currently film prints cost in excess of 7000 dollars each , blu ray promises to reduce that to next to nothing in comparison. That is why it won !! ( In my opinion of course)

Shiminay

Makes as much sense as any other arguement, Hollywood has that level of clout to make or break something like this.

Personally, I'm glad it's been almost decided one way or the other, we didn't need another VHS / BetaMAX problem here and at least I haven't decided one way or the other, so no loss to my pocket

The PS3 is looking more and more likely...

Stephen

If I ever do get that nice big HDTV that is when I'll buy a PS3 - even if the games aren't any good it'll do as a blu-ray player .

(My 360 is currently connected to a widescreen PC monitor via VGA cable)

Maximilian

HD-DVD launched as a complete product, which is why it was better. It was also significantly cheaper & there was no region coding. Blu-ray was half-baked from the start and the only player that won't be more or less obsolete in a few month's time is the PS3 (which probably makes up the majority of brd players anyway). I think what swung it for blu-ray in the end was better DRM. So for this reason, I suspect this is not a victory for consumers but rather for the movie studios.

On the other hand at least this stupid format war is all but over.

DILLIGAF

Whats the standard film that hollywood movies are shot in?
Surely it makes way more sense to shoot all digital

K.O.Kiki

What is a discussion of movies & formats doing in my Games forum?

yoyo

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Wait, better format? I thought BluRay was better and that's why Sony backed it.
Why is HD-DVD better?

Production costs lesser for each disc, more quality requirements (although blu ray profile 2.0 will force more of these), chances to get cheaper high quality players due to cheaper laser costs, no need for a one company monopoly so cheaper to buy recording media to backup the list could go on... Sony "backed" blu ray as they invented it!

Nick

Otacon

yoyo wrote: »

Production costs lesser for each disc, more quality requirements (although blu ray profile 2.0 will force more of these), chances to get cheaper high quality players due to cheaper laser costs, no need for a one company monopoly so cheaper to buy recording media to backup the list could go on... Sony "backed" blu ray as they invented it!

Nick

...so its better because its cheaper. Is that it?

MooseJam

why do blu ray movies cost 30 or 40 euro, thats crazy money for a movie, they can't cost much more than a dvd to produce. How are old movies able to be released on HD, what format are movies shot in or what format are the master copies

x keo21

i suppose there covering the cost of R&D and also cashing in on the fad element. People are willing to pay for high def it seems.
It also goes down to the fact that people who pay for a high def tv are most likely going to pay for the discs at higher prices than the majority of people would.

Stephen

MooseJam wrote: »

How are old movies able to be released on HD, what format are movies shot in or what format are the master copies

35mm film, mostly. That has an effective resolution higher than anything you can get on HD.

iregk

I get the feeling most a too young to remember the beta wars.

In the past Beta went up against VHS. Beta was a much better format, well ahead of its time but lost. The world and most importantly porn industry went VHS because of cheaper production costs. The reason? Sony owned Beta, refused to open the format up and so every beta produced had to pay Sony royalties. What made the cost difference is that HD-DVD could be made using standard DVD facilites. Blu Ray needed new factories and facilities hence initial production costs where much higher. Also HD is an open format Blu Ray is locked to Sony proprietry encoding system. In other words nobody 'owned' hd-dvd, sony own blu ray.

Sony has now got its 20+ year long wish. They tried it with beta v vhs, mini disc v cd, dvd v vcd, atrac v mp3 and now hd-dvd v blu ray. Sony own the encoding process so all manufactures, producers etc... will need to pay them royalties for every single disc created. Very dark day for media.

On the plus side at least someone won. I was holding off a purchase until we had a winner!!!

savemejebus

iregk wrote: »

... Also HD is an open format Blu Ray is locked to Sony proprietry encoding system. In other words nobody 'owned' hd-dvd, sony own blu ray.

Sony has now got its 20+ year long wish. They tried it with beta v vhs, mini disc v cd, dvd v vcd, atrac v mp3 and now hd-dvd v blu ray. Sony own the encoding process so all manufactures, producers etc... will need to pay them royalties for every single disc created. Very dark day for media.

Sony do not own Blu-Ray. They were one of 3 main drivers behind it (along with Philips and Matsu****a (Panasonic - who actually have as large, if not a larger stake in it than sony)
http://www.infosatellite.com/news/2002/02/a190202bluray.html
http://www.hitachi.com/New/cnews/E/2002/0219b/0219b.pdf

As for encoding processes Blu-Ray uses Java and the same video codecs as HD-DVD, neither of which are owned by Sony, actually i believe MS get more royalties from encoding than Sony ever will. HD-DVD used an MS proprietary menu system (HD-i) so Blu-Ray is actually more open than HD-DVD was.

Sony does have more disc replication facilities but as/if the format becomes more widely adopted that will change.

Maximilian

Its official now, in case anyone doesn't know.

Press Release.

johnny_ultimate

Excellent.
Now let us all continue with our lives and hope to hell no company is stupid enough to start a format war again (and no consumers are stupid enough to take part in it).

MooseJam

heh who bought a hd-dvd player, come on own up

Cato

go onto the console forums and say you think HD-DVD was a better format give your reasons, you will be burnt to a crisp by mindless ps3 fanboys flames by having the audacity to suggest that bluray has some failings! tbh the best dident win, it mainly comes down to whos backing what and the profit that can be gained from a product by companies mostly at the expense of the consumer. i read some stuff on the copyright crap on the blu-ray not good..

Mossy Monk

You are reading one sided yourself there Cato.

savemejebus

Cato wrote: »

tbh the best dident win

I've heard a lot of people saying that but no-one says why? Give us a list of reasons why HD-DVD is technically better to back up your argument, otherwise it comes off no better than the Blu-Ray people you think would "burn you to a crisp".

So far the only reasons I've heard are "It is cheaper and has no region protection". What are the other reasons Cato?

Maximilian

savemejebus wrote: »

I've heard a lot of people saying that but no-one says why? Give us a list of reasons why HD-DVD is technically better to back up your argument, otherwise it comes off no better than the Blu-Ray people you think would "burn you to a crisp".

So far the only reasons I've heard are "It is cheaper and has no region protection". What are the other reasons Cato?

Well, other than it was cheaper and region free, it also came to the market as a fully developed product, unlike Blu-Ray with its multiple "profiles".

I'm open to correction here but as matters stand, Blu-Ray still can't do everything that HD-DVD can do, until Profile 2.0 players come out. BD was rushed to market in order to compete. All in all, I think it was the better choice but that's just history now. I think most people, myself included, are just glad the war is over. The Sony-haters are still very upset though.

savemejebus

Maximilian wrote: »

Well, other than it was cheaper and region free, it also came to the market as a fully developed product, unlike Blu-Ray with its multiple "profiles".

I'm open to correction here but as matters stand, Blu-Ray still can't do everything that HD-DVD can do, until Profile 2.0 players come out. BD was rushed to market in order to compete. All in all, I think it was the better choice but that's just history now. I think most people, myself included, are just glad the war is over. The Sony-haters are still very upset though.

That's more like it

I think that you are correct about Blu-Ray only catching up to HD-DVD in certain areas, but i was also under the impression that HD-DVD couldn't do some things that blu-ray can do, primarily because of disc size.

The profiles thing is very valid though being 100% honest I don't think that HD-DVD was as fully developed as they said. I think Toshiba were very ambitious in creating a Consumer Friendly format and I really don't think that even if HD-DVD had thrived and won that it would have remained unchanged. A number of studios would not have released on a region free format and the DRM resrictions, copy protection etc. were not satisfactory for these same studios, so i think that if HD-DVD had won, they would have rejigged the standard and implemented regions and tighter DRM. Just my 2 cent though.

BLITZ_Molloy

MooseJam wrote: »

heh who bought a hd-dvd player, come on own up

It's probably not a bad time to buy one now actually. There's going to be a serious firesale on the discs now so there will be tons of bargains.

It really doesn't matter who won this war. Mainstream consumers aren't going to really adopt the format for another year at least, and by that time direct downloads are going to be seriously encroaching on Blu Rays territory. They mightn't be quite as high quality but your average joe is going to think 720p in widescreen is a HD movie download anyway.

Maximilian

savemejebus wrote: »

I think that you are correct about Blu-Ray only catching up to HD-DVD in certain areas, but i was also under the impression that HD-DVD couldn't do some things that blu-ray can do, primarily because of disc size.

I always thought the disc size thing was a load of balls to be honest. People used to talk about various video standards and audio standards that only blu-ray could do or include due to disc size but it was all balls. Only a bloody robot can tell the difference between lossless audio and whatever the next best thing was for example.

I kind of think the same thing about people who compare 1080p & 1080i. If you were to show a person both playing at the same time, I doubt anyone could tell the difference.

Clearly a lot of people out there need to familiarise themselves with the words "returns" and "diminishing".

LookingFor

savemejebus wrote: »

The profiles thing is very valid though being 100% honest

Valid to a point, but it's kind of moot when the most popular blu-ray player (aka PS3) is fully upgradeable. It'll be upgraded to 2.0 in an upcoming firmware.

Anyway, I'm glad it's over. Universal movies on blu-ray will be nice, at last.

savemejebus

LookingFor wrote: »

Valid to a point, but it's kind of moot when the most popular blu-ray player (aka PS3) is fully upgradeable. It'll be upgraded to 2.0 in an upcoming firmware.

Anyway, I'm glad it's over. Universal movies on blu-ray will be nice, at last.

But the PS3 isn't a true standalone blu-ray player, it's a console first and foremost with Blu-Ray functionality. What Blu-Ray really needs to get into homes is a quick loading, cheap Blu-Ray player that can do it all, like a normal DVD player now.

Universal will be excellent, though it's nice to have paramount back too

corcaigh07

its a big help to ps3's chances now. is this the start of the end for 360? also hearing the next generation is due to arrive around 2010 estimated. and since 360 came first, surely microsoft will strike first?

anyway whats wrong with dvd?

Mossy Monk

corcaigh07 wrote: »

its a big help to ps3's chances now. is this the start of the end for 360? also hearing the next generation is due to arrive around 2010 estimated. and since 360 came first, surely microsoft will strike first?

anyway whats wrong with dvd?

This wont affect the XBOX 360. There is nothing wrong with DVD. Bluray however is great with a big tv and decent sound system

Stephen

Hardly the start of the end for the 360. The HD-DVD drive for it didn't sell in great numbers, but as a games platform it is thriving at the moment.

Otacon

corcaigh07 wrote: »

anyway whats wrong with dvd?

I can remember discussions, not too long ago, about games starting to become too big for DVDs. I mean, compression can only go so far. With HD, the number of different textures, sound samples etc. has to be increasing. Eventually, it will become too much for DVDs (eventually meaning sooner rather than later!).

conzy

With PC games already hitting 12gigs + when installed, the 9gigs or so that DVD has to offer must be really hurting the 360, and it will only get worse as newer and bigger games come out...

GTAV for example... I bet it will come on 5 discs for 360

Krieg

I wish this "war" had ended sooner. HD players have been around for nearly 2 years and it feels like their price has not dropped yet(Well it has, but not by much). Im betting this was due the "War". Companies too afraid to invest in either format since it could mean a loss, has slowed down progress of HD.

Slightly OT: I hope to christ blizzard put World of warcrat onto blu-ray (or dvd at the very least). The pain of installing that game involves 10 CD's atm :mad:

Zonda999

I agree that deffo does affect microsoft.Surely the next-gen microsoft console will use A HD disc.Now it seems that this disc will have to be blu-ray.However, microsoft have often said that they are in no hurry to replace the 360.In the short term, i believe that the introduction of a blu-ray extension for the 360 is imminent-possibly before the summer.Similiar price to hddvd extension i would imagine.The whole idea of a 360 with everything, blu-ray drive, wifi, etc... is now back on the cards IMO.I'm not holding my breath(bcos i also own a ps3) but it would'nt surprise me if it happened

Overature

blue ray is way better

Maximilian

Overature wrote: »

blue ray is way better

No it isn't - not that it matters anymore.

CiDeRmAn

It's good the war is over, arguements about HD-DVD vs BluRay are moot, much like DCC vs Minidisc or Betamax vs VHS, the winner is called and it'll be a short matter of time before very affordable BluRay players start popping up, especially if they can stop "upgrading" the format and settle on one baseline version, then the budget manufacturers can get to pumping them out of China.

As for consoles, I think its obvious that any console worth its salt will contain a Bluray drive, if not for playback then certainly as a largecapacity storage medium, so I reckon we'll see the follow up to the 360 and PS3 both having Bluray drives, the alternative being MS making a proprietory big capacity drive for their 360 follow up, not likely given the ready availability of the Bluray.

We were kinda spoiled you see up to know, very few youngsters remember a time when two storage mediums were at odds, DVD being universally supported, to everyones benefit.

Then, just as MP3 swept away the competition for the replacement of CD, principally DCC, Minidisc and DAT, so perhaps will MP4 and DivX do away with physical HD media completely, in time.

MooseJam

Why are Blu-ray disks so expensive - up to 400% more expensive than DVD, are they really 4 times more expensive to produce or are they just taking the piss with the price, it's new so they charge whatever the hell they like cause it's new technology

Dman001

It's a pity MS didn't put a HD DVD player built into the Xbox, then it would of had a good chance of winning. Sony has such a bad background, it is a wonder Blu Ray won. (Betamax, Minidisk, UMD).

pvt.joker

Dman001 wrote: »

It's a pity MS didn't put a HD DVD player built into the Xbox, then it would of had a good chance of winning. Sony has such a bad background, it is a wonder Blu Ray won. (Betamax, Minidisk, UMD).

stop sending me pm's

K.O.Kiki

CiDeRmAn wrote:

We were kinda spoiled you see up to know, very few youngsters remember a time when two storage mediums were at odds, DVD being universally supported, to everyones benefit.

Not counting the DC's GD-ROM discs going against PS1's CD-ROM/PS2's DVD-ROM (and N64's carts); or the GC's miniDVDs then?

thelordofcheese

To be fair, nobody was ever pushing the DC as a GD-ROM player that also had some games of varying quality.

It's hardly the same as the Blu-ray/HD-DVD thing.

Blisterman

MooseJam wrote: »

Why are Blu-ray disks so expensive - up to 400% more expensive than DVD, are they really 4 times more expensive to produce or are they just taking the piss with the price, it's new so they charge whatever the hell they like cause it's new technology

To be fair, they're about the same price DVDs were, when they first came out.

Give it a year or two, and the price will be much lower.