Tail docking- what do you think of it?

LuckyStar

This has been bugging me a lot lately. My boyfriend just got a new Jack Russell puppy. As beautiful as the puppy is, the end of his tail was docked and I can't help but wonder if he suffered because of it. Do you think tail docking is cruel? Maybe it is ok if it would actually stop a dog injuring his tail, but is cruel of it is purely for cosmetic reasons? Myself, that would be my opinion. Also I think that if breeds like Rottweilers and Dobermanns didn't have their tails docked, maybe people would not fear them so much if they could see the dog wagging his tail? I know there will always be people that will believe whatever DEVIL DOG rubbish the Sun print, but maybe it would help these breeds get a better reputation?

Would you not buy a dog from a breeder if it's tail had been docked and you felt it was unneccessary? I love Boxers but unfortunately would have some job on my hands if I ever decided to look for one that wasn't docked.

I think the best solution would be for breeders to sell the dogs as nature intended, and then for the owner to determine if the dog needs their tail docked. However this may require tail docking to be re-legalised so vets can do it. But that would be better than breeders doing it themselves.

Do you think the kennel clubs should be banned from making any preference towards docked tails in their breed standards?

Photos of dogs with tails that are commonly docked, I just think all these dogs look so much nicer as nature intended:

Jack Russell





Weimeraner




Boxer




Rottweiler




Dobermann

the dee

Wow, I've never seen some of those breeds with their natural tails. It does make them look more friendly and doggy.

Do show standards prefer docked tails? If a breeder wants to show one of these breeds do they have to be docked? My Jack Russell has his tail docked, I heard it was to keep it from being damaged when he's hunting rats and rabbits and stuff and to pull him out of holes. Why are pet dogs who are never going to do this kind of work still subjected to this treatment?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

It's the vanity of the owner more than anything. Not sure about show standards, but personally I think they look a lot better with natural tails.

There's something very shallow about cosmetic surgery on a dog.

LuckyStar

Just about to take said Jack Russell puppy for a run on the beach now but there's nothing better than seeing a dog wagging his tail with joy and it's not goof that some dogs can't do this!

cowzerp

The boxer, rotty and dobie look much better docked, my rottie was docked before i got him but i prefer it that way-once its done properly its not that big a deal! when untrained individuals do it its very wrong.

peasant

cowzerp wrote: »

The boxer, rotty and dobie look much better docked, my rottie was docked before i got him but i prefer it that way-once its done properly its not that big a deal! when untrained individuals do it its very wrong.

They might look good in metallic black also ...are you going to paint them next ? You could get a prefessional painter to do it ....

:rolleyes:

myjugsarehuge

cowzerp wrote: »

The boxer, rotty and dobie look much better docked, my rottie was docked before i got him but i prefer it that way-once its done properly its not that big a deal! when untrained individuals do it its very wrong.

I'm sorry but I don't thing the dogs would agree with you that its not a big deal. My Jack Russell cross uses her tail to communicate her feelings, she is a very waggy dog, I can't imagine her without it.

Its only because you are not used to seeing those dogs with tails that you think its strange. What gives us to right to mutilate them, whether it is done professionally or otherwise ? Same goes for ear mutilation in dobermans.

cowzerp

My rotty still wags his stump and its the same comunication as my lab with a full tail!

and i asked him and he did not seem to bothered about it!

peasant

cowzerp wrote: »

My rotty still wags his stump and its the same comunication as my lab with a full tail!

You do realise that other than "wagging" at the owner, the tail also serves as a communicatin tool towards other dogs ... like waving a big flag.

Lauragoesmad

They look so much better with tails!!
By docking a dogs tail, it can impair their balance also.

jj1310

[SIZE=-1]Why Are Dog's Tails Docked?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]1. To avoid tail damage[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]A number of working gundog breeds have to hunt game through heavy vegetation and thick brambles, where their fast tail action can easily lead to torn and bleeding tails which are painful and extremely difficult to treat. Docking the end of the tail eliminates the risk of injury. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Working terriers are docked for the same reason. In addition, terriers which are bred to hunt below ground for purposes such as fox control, have their tails docked to a length which is more practical when working in a confined space. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Other non-working breeds which have an enthusiastic tail action, are also liable to damage their tails, even in the home. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Since docking was banned in Sweden in 1989, there has been a massive increase in tail injuries amongst previously docked breeds. Within the 50 undocked Pointer litters registered in that year with the Swedish Kennel Club, 38% of dogs suffered tail injury before they were 18 months old and in 1991, the number of individuals with tail injures had increased to 51% of the group. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2. For reasons of hygiene[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Long haired, thick coated breeds like the Yorkshire Terrier and Old English Sheepdog are docked to avoid the hair around the base of the tail becoming fouled by faeces. Even with constant grooming and washing, such fouling is unpleasant. If allowed to get out of hand, it can lead to severe problems of hygiene, or even flystrike and subsequent infestation by maggots. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Hygiene problems can be greatly reduced or eliminated altogether by docking. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3. To maintain breed standards[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Breeds which have been docked over many generations have been selected for specific qualities of build and conformation, but not for tail length, shape or carriage. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]If left undocked, it is unlikely that the best dogs would carry good tails. In seeking to maintain the quality of the breeds, breeders would therefore be left with a diminished number of suitable sires and dams. The genetic pool would be reduced, greatly increasing the risk of hereditary diseases taking hold. Some breeds could even disappear for ever. [/SIZE]

Ps The number of Boxer being registered in the Uk has approx halved last year. The people who have stopped breeding are the registered breeders who are breeding the best quality dogs which mean long term you will end up with Boxers which will vary from the Standard for the breed. Happening here too, have a look at some of the pups for sale, some of the pups don't even look like Boxers.

Also about 50% of Vets surveyed in UK were pro docking and the other half against. So obviously they is varied opinions

jj1310

Ps Luckystar, dogs are docked when only days old using a rubber band, it doesn't hurt them at all. If the dog damages its tail when its older it may have to be amputated and this is painful. So unfortunately you can't sell them naturally and the dock them.

peasant

jj1310 wrote: »

[SIZE=-1]2. For reasons of hygiene[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Long haired, thick coated breeds like the Yorkshire Terrier and Old English Sheepdog are docked to avoid the hair around the base of the tail becoming fouled by faeces. Even with constant grooming and washing, such fouling is unpleasant. If allowed to get out of hand, it can lead to severe problems of hygiene, or even flystrike and subsequent infestation by maggots. [/SIZE]

How about cleaning? and shaving of excess hair?

That's what we do with our excessively hairy dogs rather than cut their tails off.

deman

jj1310 wrote: »

[SIZE=-1]Long haired, thick coated breeds like the Yorkshire Terrier and Old English Sheepdog are docked to avoid the hair around the base of the tail becoming fouled by faeces. Even with constant grooming and washing, such fouling is unpleasant. If allowed to get out of hand, it can lead to severe problems of hygiene, or even flystrike and subsequent infestation by maggots. [/SIZE]

So does this mean that my Golden Retriever (Oscar) should be docked? I've never seen a GR docked, and hope never to. It's part of Oscar's personality and he's be lost without it.

eth0_

jj1310 wrote: »

Ps Luckystar, dogs are docked when only days old using a rubber band, it doesn't hurt them at all. If the dog damages its tail when its older it may have to be amputated and this is painful. So unfortunately you can't sell them naturally and the dock them.

Are you serious?! Of COURSE it hurts!

Let's make a direct comparison here:
If you had a baby, would you tie rubber bands so tightly around one of her fingers that the extremity died, and then sever muscles, tendons, nerves and maybe having to cut through bone to remove the 'extraneous' limb?

It is ridiculous to state it is for the dogs own good in case it injures its tail later in life! If it had to have a tail amputation for a VALID reason, then a vet would do it under anaesthesia.

You are a very cruel person if you advocate tail docking. It is banned in many countries because it is considered cruelty and torture.

golden

I have seen a few cases where home docking is done and got infected not nice at all. I know of a dog that a piece of metal was left in the tail stump after yet another botched docking.

Why dock a tail if it is only for cosmetic reasons??

Its not that difficult to keep the dog hygiencally clean all you have to do is keep the hair short around the base of tail and also including the back of the hind legs.

jj1310

I'm just giving the pro docking side. Its not painful if done when only a few days old. Its a matter of preferance. I love boxers and I would not like to see them in pain at all, and if it hurt I would be completely against docking. Have a look at www.cdb.org for interest. Just my 2pence.

jj1310

Also have look at
www.trader.co.nz/vizsla/docking/

purplegeko

My yorkie has a docked tail and in my life i have only seen 2 or 3 yorkies about town with the full tail and i prefer the ful tail TBH. I completely understand the reasons behind docking and have mixed feelings on the subject.

I know docking isn't purely for cosmetic reasons but, slightly off topic my cousin in Mexico has a minuiature doberman and had plastic surgery done on it's ears so they stuck up more! Thats a bit much.

golden

Cropped ears are quite common in the States.

Majority of the dogs are not working dogs so really no reason to dock tails.

Mellor

eth0_ wrote: »

It is ridiculous to state it is for the dogs own good in case it injures its tail later in life! If it had to have a tail amputation for a VALID reason, then a vet would do it under anaesthesia.

Sorry but you don't really know what you are talking about. Valid reason, what more could you want. If you were ever involved with gun or working dogs you would understand.
So what if the Vet uses anaesthesic. That has no relevance. Its not the amputation thats painful for the dog but the injury

A working dog can either;
A: Have the tail docked when born. This is a clinical procedure. This will cause some (I would never suggest none) discomfort, but as the dog is very young it will heal with no long term affects.

B: Leave the tail natural. When working, it will be much more open to injuries. These injuries are not at all like docking, most involving the tail being brutally damaged, this will be very painful and will have to be removed. The removal afterwards will not be painful but will leave more damage than docking. It could also affect the dog mentally.


I don't agree with docking for cometic reasons, and would never do it. But certain breeds of working dog, when they will be used as working dogs are better off docked. For the record, my dog isnt docked as his breed isn't likely to be injuried. His breed are never docked and are both show dogs and hunting dogs. He did however receive an injury (leg) and has been in very bad shape and pain since, and will be for a few years. If there was anything that I could of done to prevent his injury before hand I would of done it.

eth0_

jj1310 wrote: »

I'm just giving the pro docking side. Its not painful if done when only a few days old..

Please explain to us why it doesn't hurt if the dog is a baby? You're literally cutting off a limb without anaesthesia. Think about it.

jj1310

I have been there with a vet doing the procedure on pups and as far as I was concerned it did' t appear to cause much pain to the pups. As it stands it England it is banned for most docked breeds exceptions for actual working dogs. What has happened is that the people who breed the dogs closest to the standard of the breed have in some cases stopped breeding these magnificent animals. I am a complete animal lover, all animals, I would catch a fly and open the open and let him out rather than kill him, literally. I do understand the point that people may think that it is cruel but I have literally seen it done and the pups were not hurt. A little whimper if that. They are more hurt during the vaccination, so should we stop sticking a pointy sharp object under their skin now. Similar, if not worse level of pain for the pup, but again for its own good and long term health. That’s my opinion, I apologise if anyone things I cruel but I believe I’m not. Next time you meet or go to the vet mention it to them in passing and see if they think it’s cruel? They may but I doubt it, from my experience

kerrysgold

I think the dog's look far nicer with their tails natural, after all, that is the way they were meant to look! our old dobie had a docked tail and because it was botched had to go through another op to have the infected part cut off, thus making it even shorter, basically a slight stump.

labs etc are gundogs too, how come they aren't docked?
why are dobies, boxers and rotties docked? rotties were bred to guard/herd livestock which hardly involves running through rough land etc and endangering their tails.....

If I ever got a dog from a breeder I would specifically ask for my dog's tail to be left alone.

Even if they can still wag the stump a bit, they can't show they are scared by putting it down, or put it straight up if they are feeling defencive etc.

Toots

My cocker spaniel hasn't got her tail docked and I'm so glad, her tail is the best part of her, and at the end she's got a little ringlet thing, which is cute. I'm pro docking if it's necessary ie if the tail gets damaged, but not if it's just done for cosmetic reasons.

NoNameRanger

jj1310 wrote: »

I have been there with a vet doing the procedure on pups and as far as I was concerned it did' t appear to cause much pain to the pups. As it stands it England it is banned for most docked breeds exceptions for actual working dogs. What has happened is that the people who breed the dogs closest to the standard of the breed have in some cases stopped breeding these magnificent animals. I am a complete animal lover, all animals, I would catch a fly and open the open and let him out rather than kill him, literally. I do understand the point that people may think that it is cruel but I have literally seen it done and the pups were not hurt. A little whimper if that. They are more hurt during the vaccination, so should we stop sticking a pointy sharp object under their skin now. Similar, if not worse level of pain for the pup, but again for its own good and long term health. That’s my opinion, I apologise if anyone things I cruel but I believe I’m not. Next time you meet or go to the vet mention it to them in passing and see if they think it’s cruel? They may but I doubt it, from my experience

I've done it myself, first time the thoughts of doing it to my pups was awful, but once i was shown how to do it and did it, it was perfectly fine, no complaints from the pups and they didn't grow up to hate me either. I don't think it is cruel! And i agree with all that JJ has said, he obviously knows what he is talking about.

Some people should have another read of the charter by the way. Calling somebody a cruel person is an insult!:eek: There is also a special warning in the charter for mods.

NicsM

My Jack Russell had his tail docked before we got him, IMO it's way too short as you can barely see the stump. If we had had a say I would have preferred it to be left alone. Dogs are dogs regardless of whether or not they have tails, I think its a very personal thing for pet owners. One other poster mentioned Labs never having their tails docked, my lab's tale was so strong and he wagged it so vigorously that visitors to the house would often leave with sore legs from standing around him! (he was a charmer so most people didn't mind!)

peasant

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Some people should have another read of the charter by the way. Calling somebody a cruel person is an insult!:eek: There is also a special warning in the charter for mods.

Calling somebody a cruel person is only an insult if it's not true.

Docking a dog via the rubber band method definitely IS cruel and anyone using the practise deserves to be called a cruel person anywhere.

Docking under anaestetic (sp?) may not be considered cruel by you or Irish legislature ...but it is where I come from and forbidden by law as it is considered cruel and uneccessary mutilation.

So (as you want to argue the finer points here) I'm going to refer to the laws in several EU countries that specifiy docking as cruel and have it banned, and call you, who does dock his dogs, a cruel person.

Now sue me

michelleans

The hunting dog needs their tail docked argument just doesn't hold. Dogs can get injured in any part of their body while hunting, not just their tails. Maybe you guys who are for docking would like to dock the other parts that stick out too? Legs, ears etc?

I have a long haired German Shepherd and he is always clean after going to the toilet. The arguments just don't hold.

Docking is a pointless mutilation and should be banned everywhere.

peasant

btw ...the reason why working dogs traditionally were docked has nothing to do with preventing injury and everything with taxes.

Throughout the ages, hunting was the priviledge of the landed aristocracy and nobody else was allowed to have (hunting))dogs ...and if they were, they had to pay heavy taxes.

But working dogs (drovers, cattle herders, sheepdogs etc) were tax exempt.

In order to recognise a tax exempt working dog, its tail was cut off.

NoNameRanger

peasant wrote: »

Calling somebody a cruel person is only an insult if it's not true.

Docking a dog via the rubber band method definitely IS cruel and anyone using the practise deserves to be called a cruel person anywhere.

Docking under anaestetic (sp?) may not be considered cruel by you or Irish legislature ...but it is where I come from and forbidden by law as it is considered cruel and uneccessary mutitalition.

So (as you want to argue the finer points here) I'm going to refer to the laws in several EU countries that specifiy docking as cruel and have it banned, and call you, who does dock his dogs, a cruel person.

Now sue me

Somebody can only legally be called a cruel person if they are convicted in court for cruelty. I consider this to be a serious insult. It's not true. Tail docking is not illegal in this country.
I'm not cruel and i assure you you would not speak to me like that if we were face to face. Its very easy to be a bully on boards where you can hide behind a fake persona. I have looked at alot of your posts and you are a bully and have little to add other than sarcasm and inflammatory comments. Pretty poor show for a moderator.