Am I mad?

Bargain_Hound

...Am I mad driving around unnaccompanied on my first provisional? I have my 1st provisional around a year now, but I applied for my test just before christmas time, so I have a while now still before I get my test but these new rules have kind of affected it I guess.

Am I mad to be still driving around? I can't wait to get my test and get it all over with. Also, does anybody know if the waiting times have reduced at all ( Doing it in finglas ) keeping in mind I booked the test over 2 months ago.

Thanks.

meremortal

No loads of people are still doing it, I think theres a certain amount of leniancy at the moment. If something happens though it could be a problem. If you feel ready for your test ring the test centre and tell them that you now need to drive on the M50 because youre moving job/ house... worked for my friend!!!!

Bargain_Hound

That's what I am trying to find out, if they are still quite lean on the rules until june or what?.. also while trying not to get in trouble for posting info. on boards that could be potentially, illegal :rolleyes:

--amadeus--

I really don't want to come across as one of those self righteous muppets who pop up on threads like this (but probably will)

The law isn't there just to be a pain in the backside. It's there because someone without a test pass and such a limited amount of experience is not safe on the roads without supervision. Driving as you are you are possibly presenting a risk both to yourself and to others and in no other country would you even consider it. Are the potential penalties worth it?

Wishbone Ash

Bargain_Hound wrote: »

I am trying to find out, if they are still quite lean on the rules until june or what

The changes on the 30th of June apply to holders of a second provisional licence/learner permit.

1st provisional licence holders (in category were always required to be accompanied.

msg11

meremortal wrote: »

No loads of people are still doing it, I think theres a certain amount of leniancy at the moment. If something happens though it could be a problem. If you feel ready for your test ring the test centre and tell them that you now need to drive on the M50 because youre moving job/ house... worked for my friend!!!!

I do it myself, But I do not mind when I am driving my dad around its better for me as I get to ask questions, and he gives me tips and stuff.

But most of the time I just drive around my area as I know it from cycling the bike for the last 10 years !

At the end of the day the law is the law, and you (me too) are breaking the law, it is the enforcer of the law (gardai) what they feel best to deal with the situation.

Also, your insurance will cover, they regard the not been with a full licensed driver the same as speeding, thats what the head of the IIF said on the news !

msg11

Oh forgot to add, it really is about how confident you feel on the road, also I would recommend that if you don't have any road sense (cycling a bike etc..) that you invest in a sat nav and plan routes and stuff.

At the end of the day, experiance is built over time, cockyness overnight. Do not fool yourself we are still learning..

Bargain_Hound

Well as you asked, I am quite confident on the road and never feel out of control in any situation really, I've had quite a lot of lessons before I got my own car and I am still currently taking them every now and again leading up to my test soon. Just for the record also, I have never come close to any kind of accident or serious mistakes.

In saying that, yes the law is the law I know. I just hear of so many peolpe still on the roads on a provisional it kills me to even think " I should stay off the road until I gain a full licensce.. ", when so many peolpe out there are doing it, also some who are totally un-confident on the road (Which I know, & see daily). In the eyes of the law, I know I am just as equal as these other provisional drivers.

How does it work regarding insurance? I am insured / taxed / NCT'd, but is insurance null if I am unnacompanied?

msg11

Bargain_Hound wrote: »

Well as you asked, I am quite confident on the road and never feel out of control in any situation really, I've had quite a lot of lessons before I got my own car and I am still currently taking them every now and again leading up to my test soon. Just for the record also, I have never come close to any kind of accident or serious mistakes.

In saying that, yes the law is the law I know. I just hear of so many peolpe still on the roads on a provisional it kills me to even think " I should stay off the road until I gain a full licensce.. ", when so many peolpe out there are doing it, also some who are totally un-confident on the road (Which I know, & see daily). In the eyes of the law, I know I am just as equal as these other provisional drivers.

How does it work regarding insurance? I am insured / taxed / NCT'd, but is insurance null if I am unnacompanied?

No, Your insured. Its regarded, and put in the same cat as speeding. IE your not ment to do it, but it happens. And I would also expect it depends on your insurance company. Basically, don't worrie about it . You'll be all right, and do not put it too the test.. Your always taxed regardless of your license type same for the NCT. l

stepbar

Drop the L plates. I've been driving since July 07 and passed my test in Nov 07. During that time I never displayed a L plate. The only time I met a Guard was to take a breathalizer test and by that stage I had a full licence. He never asked me to produce a licence either. You just have to be smart about it.

I also cycled a bike round Dublin for many years. It helped when I eventually took to the road.

msg11

stepbar wrote: »

Drop the L plates. I've been driving since July 07 and passed my test in Nov 07. During that time I never displayed a L plate. The only time I met a Guard was to take a breathalizer test and by that stage I had a full licence. He never asked me to produce a licence either. You just have to be smart about it.

I also cycled a bike round Dublin for many years. It helped when I eventually took to the road.

It helps alot to have some what of a form of road sense, pedo's and cyclists are most at risk, and the car in front or the car making that turn, they could be also a learner without the L plates.

Just cause we are learners, it seems that we need someone always there with us, which is a bit mad considering if you pass your test your aloud on your own? And this has never happent before ? Strange, but the way I think of it is just act or drive as if you have a full license.. Its hard to explain, and depends where your driving, if you know the roads well, you should be ok and know the hazards from experiance. But if its a road which is new, but take it at a pace your ok with, IE what you learnt with your instructor.

Also can I stress, that you do not take my word on the situation regarding insurance as I am not 100% on it.. But thats what I heard around.

Even with a full license, do not think your great, its all learning. Some people on the boards think there the **** with there pink license, and are actully really bad drivers.

stepbar

msg11 wrote: »

It helps alot to have some what of a form of road sense, pedo's and cyclists are most at risk, and the car in front or the car making that turn, they could be also a learner without the L plates.

Just cause we are learners, it seems that we need someone always there with us, which is a bit mad considering if you pass your test your aloud on your own? And this has never happent before ? Strange, but the way I think of it is just act or drive as if you have a full license.. Its hard to explain, and depends where your driving, if you know the roads well, you should be ok and know the hazards from experiance. But if its a road which is new, but take it at a pace your ok with, IE what you learnt with your instructor.

Also can I stress, that you do not take my word on the situation regarding insurance as I am not 100% on it.. But thats what I heard around.

Even with a full license, do not think your great, its all learning. Some people on the boards think there the **** with there pink license, and are actully really bad drivers.

Agreed. I feel that drivers can be absolute <SNIP> if they see a L plate in front of them. I know cause I often find myself shouting at a L plate for doing something stupid. I know I shouldn't but it happens. At the end of the day, a safe driver is one who observes everything that goes on around them, uses mirrors frequently and obeys the rules of the road. Being careful about everything, pulling off, reversing etc helps. There's no rush. A lot of learner drivers need to just slow down a bit and take their time doing stuff.

Bargain_Hound

I guess its a coinsodince I spent may years cycling around, everyday! Generally I would be only driving around locally enough and to college & work everyday for a good while, and am yet to encounter 1 gardai but I dread that day, I just hope my test creeps up shortly:(

When I got my car a while back, few people I had in the car were shocked to see how confident I was on the road and couldn't believe I hadn't been driving before. I'm glad I started off with lessons in the first place before I got my own car, mainly just to get use to the rules of the road more then to learn how to control a car, which I already knew how to. I guess thats where my advantage lay in knowing how to drive the car(practising several years back, father teaching me..), compared to alot of people who start off without a bog how to drive! Practise makes pefect. Again, in the eyes of the law we are all the same(prov drivers), I just wish I wasn't breaking it.

I am 18 now by the way.

Roll on test day!!!!!!

unreggd

I think a full license makes you cocky

And a lot of Full Licensed drivers think they're the cheese and take stupid risks

Also, the rules, or what you know of them is more fresh in your head as a learner

I think confidence is the major issue

Im drivin about 4/5 months now, and jus got the letter about my test

Im a confident driver, try not to crumble under pressure, and dont speed, even at night on a long, empty road


My fear is that I pass the test with flyin colours and I think im grand, when im not

I wokr in Dundrum, and live in tallaght, and if i go the long way, its 40 mins, if i go the m50 is 12 mins!

But i still go the long way, unless i wake up late [i have to open the shop]
or Im off late and need to get home asap

Ive been stopped about 4 times already and nothin was said abt me driving unaccompanied

Bargain_Hound

I would also agree that confidence plays a massive role in yours and others safety on the road. If you are unconfident, you will crumble under any situation on the road, potentially risking others and you.

--amadeus--

I am genuinley shocked reading through those posts. I knew that the lunacy of our system had bred an attitude of "sure, who needs a licence" but I would never have believed that it had gone this far!

Learner drivers with no experience driving alone and without L Plates? It's mad that (certified) drivers can drive alone but learners can't? Driving 4 or 5 months and on a motorway alone? Thinking you're the dogs because you come across as "confident" in a car?

Lads the law is the law and any Guard that stops you is (theoretically) duty bound to book you if you are breaking it. There is no other country in the western world where this kind of stupidity would be allowed and the sooner the new rules are enforced the better. Can you seriously not see the irony in complaining about licenced drivers being cocky and bragging about how confident you all are? Do you really think it's a co-incidence that learners are more likely to crash?

Passing a test doesn't make you a better driver but it does guarantee that you have a basic level of competance. Reading through your posts I just hope to God I never meet any of you on the road.

HungryJoey

Doesn't Ireland have some of the longest waiting times to obtain a full license though? I mean in the UK you could get your learning permit and start driving and have your test done in less then total of 2 months? With 2 months driving experience. ( From what I heard from my cousins who have all done it in the UK over the last few years, I may be wrong though )

It is kind of madness how many people get away with this though.

stepbar

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I am genuinley shocked reading through those posts. I knew that the lunacy of our system had bred an attitude of "sure, who needs a licence" but I would never have believed that it had gone this far!

Learner drivers with no experience driving alone and without L Plates? It's mad that (certified) drivers can drive alone but learners can't? Driving 4 or 5 months and on a motorway alone? Thinking you're the dogs because you come across as "confident" in a car?

Lads the law is the law and any Guard that stops you is (theoretically) duty bound to book you if you are breaking it. There is no other country in the western world where this kind of stupidity would be allowed and the sooner the new rules are enforced the better. Can you seriously not see the irony in complaining about licenced drivers being cocky and bragging about how confident you all are? Do you really think it's a co-incidence that learners are more likely to crash?

Passing a test doesn't make you a better driver but it does guarantee that you have a basic level of competance. Reading through your posts I just hope to God I never meet any of you on the road.

Link please.

HungryJoey

I think its more of a common sense kind of fact that they are more likely to crash, with less experience on the road.

Again, I'm just the man in the middle - Dont shout at me if I am wrong.

--amadeus--

I was taught - and passed my test - in London and there is no way you could go through in 2 months (although I did hear that Lewis Hamilton only needed 2 lessons to get to test standard but he may be an exception!). I think I had a few weeks wait for a test date but it was weeks (3 or 4) rather than months.

As far as I know you cannot apply for a test in the UK untill you are 18, though you can get a learner licence at 17, so that's a mandatory 12 month wait. Most driving instructors over there also work on the basis of 1 hour tuition for every year so most learners take 18 - 25 lessons, which tends to be 6 months+. And of course because you can't just jump in and drive on your own your opportunities to practice are pretty much limited to teaching, which slows you down. Over here people bomb around for a year on there own (because they know the roads from cycling), do a couple of pre-test lessons and away they go. And we wonder why our accident rates are so high and teh Brits seem like better drivers...

The test q is a disgrace but I don't think it's an excuse. I think 40% tax is a discgrace but I still have to pay it, why should the law on driving be any different? After all it's not like failing to pay my tax could kill someone!

--amadeus--

stepbar wrote: »

Link please.

Well we cab start with this one

which says:

YOUNG DRIVERS WITH PROVISIONAL LICENCES, WHERE A LICENCE CATEGORY WAS SPECIFIED, WERE HELD TO BE TO A LARGE EXTENT RESPONSIBLE IN 55% OF ACCIDENTS, COMPARED WITH 45% FOR YOUNG DRIVERS WITH FULL LICENCES. OLDER DRIVERS WITH FULL LICENCES, WHERE A LICENCE CATEGORY WAS SPECIFIED, WERE HELD TO BE TO A LARGE EXTENT RESPONSIBLE IN 36% OF ACCIDENTS, COMPARED WITH 43% FOR OLDER DRIVERS WITH PROVISIONAL LICENCES.

or this one

According to the NRA report of the road accidents in 1997 where licence information was provided, 38% of young car drivers aged 17 to 24 years injured were reported as holding a provisional licence, compared to 9% of older car drivers. The corresponding figures for young and older motorcyclists were 69% and 36%, respectively. Changes have subsequently been made to the licensing regime for novice motorcyclists.
Within the statistical limitations involved, the NRA report also estimates that drivers with provisional licences are considered to be to a large extent responsible for road accidents in which they are involved to a higher degree than drivers of corresponding age and gender who have full licences. The extent of this greater responsibility ranges from +5% to +11%, depending on age and or gender.

stepbar

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Well we cab start with this one

which says:

YOUNG DRIVERS WITH PROVISIONAL LICENCES, WHERE A LICENCE CATEGORY WAS SPECIFIED, WERE HELD TO BE TO A LARGE EXTENT RESPONSIBLE IN 55% OF ACCIDENTS, COMPARED WITH 45% FOR YOUNG DRIVERS WITH FULL LICENCES. OLDER DRIVERS WITH FULL LICENCES, WHERE A LICENCE CATEGORY WAS SPECIFIED, WERE HELD TO BE TO A LARGE EXTENT RESPONSIBLE IN 36% OF ACCIDENTS, COMPARED WITH 43% FOR OLDER DRIVERS WITH PROVISIONAL LICENCES.

But as was said above it's kind of common sense isn't it.

From 2000? Eight years ago. Come on :rolleyes:

--amadeus--

Because of the nature of statistics detailed analysis lags a few years behind. If you google it you'll find plenty of others that support the fact that provisional licence holders / younger / more inexperienced drivers have more accidents, more serious accidents and tend to be more at fault in accidents.

Turn it around - can you show me a link that proves me wrong and you right?

stepbar

I haven't said if you're right or wrong. If you're going to come out with a comment, at least back it up with up to date stats.

--amadeus--

Those are the most up to date statistics available that break down collision by licence type. Other stats simply sort by age and gender. But since road conditions and licencing laws haven'd changed since 2000 I'm fairly happy that it's accurate to say that learner drivers are involved in a disporoportionatly high number of accidents and are signigantly more likely to be at fault in an accident.

And to bring it back OT - that is why the OP is indeed "mad" to drive on his own on his first provisional licence and with limited experience.

imeddyhobbs

Lets think outside of the box(or inside,depending on where you are coming from),no license no driving!

Lets play on a level playing field and discuss the real situations.

athtrasna

Bargain_Hound wrote: »

... Also, does anybody know if the waiting times have reduced at all ( Doing it in finglas ) keeping in mind I booked the test over 2 months ago.

Thanks.

I waited 10 months for my first date at Finglas then 4 months for my next (brake light had blown between leaving my house and arriving at the test centre for my first test), then 4 weeks for my next one (second try was cancelled due to snow!). I did have to put a lot of pressure on to get my test so soon after the snow date cos my provisional was about to expire.

When I finally got to do my test I passed it but it was a stressful 15 months!

msg11

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I was taught - and passed my test - in London and there is no way you could go through in 2 months (although I did hear that Lewis Hamilton only needed 2 lessons to get to test standard but he may be an exception!). I think I had a few weeks wait for a test date but it was weeks (3 or 4) rather than months.

As far as I know you cannot apply for a test in the UK untill you are 18, though you can get a learner licence at 17, so that's a mandatory 12 month wait. Most driving instructors over there also work on the basis of 1 hour tuition for every year so most learners take 18 - 25 lessons, which tends to be 6 months+. And of course because you can't just jump in and drive on your own your opportunities to practice are pretty much limited to teaching, which slows you down. Over here people bomb around for a year on there own (because they know the roads from cycling), do a couple of pre-test lessons and away they go. And we wonder why our accident rates are so high and teh Brits seem like better drivers...

The test q is a disgrace but I don't think it's an excuse. I think 40% tax is a discgrace but I still have to pay it, why should the law on driving be any different? After all it's not like failing to pay my tax could kill someone!

You have me for one wrong, I totally agree with what you are saying... But its a bit of a pain in your ****ing arse, when your waiting near 7 month for a date for a test that takes an hour, and hold on I still do not have a letter or a date... And I pray to god I do not come across you on the road.

And I hate to say this, but the brits are far better drivers.

athtrasna

msg11 wrote: »

And I hate to say this, but the brits are far better drivers.

Disagree 100%. "Yellow licence plates" are the most dangerous drivers I encounter on the roads, especially when it comes to speeding. The reason why is simple - non transferable penalty points.

--amadeus--

athtrasna wrote: »

Disagree 100%. "Yellow licence plates" are the most dangerous drivers I encounter on the roads, especially when it comes to speeding. The reason why is simple - non transferable penalty points.

There is a world of difference between the way NI drivers drive when down in teh Republic and the way UK drivers drive at home and transferable points is a reason. At home though they generally seem to use indicators, know where to be on a roundabout and observe lane discipline for a start...

Wishbone Ash

msg11 wrote: »

it really is about how confident you feel on the road

Bargain_Hound wrote: »

I am quite confident on the road

Bargain_Hound wrote: »

shocked to see how confident I was on the road

unreggd wrote: »

I think confidence is the major issue

Bargain_Hound wrote: »

I would also agree that confidence plays a massive role in yours and others safety on the road. If you are unconfident, you will crumble under any situation on the road, potentially risking others and you.

Lads/ladies, I think you need to get the dictionary out and look up the meaning of 'confidence' or 'confident'.

Then look up the meaning of the word 'COMPETENT'.

Many of the worse drivers on our roads are probably confident. Many of the young people who die on our roads each year are confident.

HungryJoey wrote: »

Doesn't Ireland have some of the longest waiting times to obtain a full license though?

Why then, were there 300,000 motorists out there last year on Provisional Licences who hadn't even bothered to apply for a driving test?

msg11 wrote: »

Some people on the boards think there the **** with there pink license, and are actully really bad drivers.

How do you know how fully licenced boards drivers drive?

stepbar wrote: »

Link please.

stepbar wrote: »

I haven't said if you're right or wrong. If you're going to come out with a comment, at least back it up with up to date stats.

Watch the RTE 9 O'Clock news on the last day of each months and see the list of young people who have been slaughtered on our roads.

athtrasna wrote: »

Disagree 100%. "Yellow licence plates" are the most dangerous drivers I encounter on the roads, especially when it comes to speeding. The reason why is simple - non transferable penalty points.

Did you ever see how ROI registered vehicles are driven up north? It works both ways.

Wishbone Ash

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I think 40% tax is a discgrace but I still have to pay it

We have one of the lowest levels of income tax in Europe! It's 65% in some countries.

cson

I have my test Wednesday two weeks. I've been driving since the middle of August. The only way I could feasibly get experience on the roads was to drive unaccompanied. My parents just simply aren't able to be with me all the time. Having said that, I was made get a course of 6 lessons before I ever went out on the road at all and then for the first month of me driving on the roads my Mam or Dad were always with me; they always accompanied me. When they were satisfied I could drive pretty good they let me off on my own. Again, I was only allowed to go into town at the start.

Now since then I've driven a lot around the country (I've also purposely stayed off motorways) and built up my experience to the point where I'm confident and more importantly; my Dad and other people who've travelled with me see me as a competent driver.

In answer to the OP, what I did when I started driving unaccompanied was to put a copy of the Rules of the Road and my letter from the RSA confirming my application for the test (I applied as soon as I got my provisional). I had my L plates up at all times. My theory was, I needed to practise to get better and unfortunately circumstances dictated I couldn't be accompanied. So if the Gardai were to stop me and take issue with it, I'd show them the letter the ROTR book and hope they didn't go to the letter of the law. I have been stopped 3 times but the issue of my licence has never come up.

--amadeus--

cson wrote: »

The only way I could feasibly get experience on the roads was to drive unaccompanied.

That's the mindset we have to change. When I started to learn to drive (in the UK) I had access to a car but under no circumstances would it have occured to me to drive without a qualified driver with me. Driving unaccompanied is not a feasible way to get experience anywhere else and so your only option would be to do what they do in every other European country - get lessons!

(As for the 40% tax jibe - that was kind of tounge in cheek but I'd pay scandanavian levels of tax for scandanavian levels of service.)

cson

Tbh, you can rattle on about changing the mindset (I do agree it needs changing) but the current system breeds the current mindset. The waiting lists for the test, then the test itself is a joke - if you drive legitimately throughout your provisional years the first time you will never have driven on a motorway. Its ridiculous. (So was the tax thing you mentioned - what has that got to do with learning to drive?)

--amadeus--

I couldn't agree more - without the farcical system you wouldn't have the idea that it's ok to go driving around without either lessons or a test (simploy because you are "confident"). Changing that mindset is the idea behind teh new legislation / plans to enforce current legislation and it will be painful for people who are used to thier freedoms but it will be benificial for all in the end. *If* it's enforced then you should see a drop in accidents.

The tax thing was an analogy - not being able to drive unaccompanied on a provisional is a pain so people ignore the law and the guards ignore the lawbreakers. I was comparing that to someone who finds paying tax a pain and so ignore that law. I was atempting to highlight how daft it is to ignore the law just because you "need to".

cson

To be honest amadeus, the system needs a lot more than the changes that are being made in June.

Red Alert

All I want to see is a system where I can ring up and book a test for about a week's time at one of the SGS or RSA centres of their choosing. That would deal with a lot of the people (like me) who are in the system for months.

Old_-_School

I don't think I could consider the OP mad for driving on a 1st provisional seeing that I did it myself. In fact most people I know drove to the test centre the day of their test.
The offences of driving unaccompanied on a provisional licence and the non-display of L-plates have not been in the top 3000 cases brought before the courts such is the lack of enforcement of these rules.
I think that lots of people will still take the risk after June 30th as travelling to work, college, etc. would be made very awkward for them otherwise. The only way it'll be adhered to is if there's a lot more random checkpoints and more importanly, if the insurance industry come out and declare that provisional license holders aren't covered by insurance. If this was the case, a provisional license holder who drove on their own would be committing the very serious crime of driving without insurance which often leads to a suspended driving license and fines of up to €2500.