Pharmacists complaining

Our man in Havana

Anyone know what the Pharmacists are whining about now? Something about the HSE taking work from them? Anyone know what is happening?

derek27

http://www.galwayindependent.com/business/business/hse%10pharmacists-dispute-set-to-continue/

Our man in Havana

Thanks for the fast reply.

deepimpact

As a professional body, pharmacists (I am a student, final year), have no real representative body, the IPU represents pharmacy owners, so the HSE are abusing this. There was no talk of any rise, that I know of.
The HSE are also stating that pharmacies and pharmacists provide more services to the community at large, while reducing the amount of money paid for services already provided.

Yes, pharmacists are "complaining", but we (pharmacists and pharmacy students) are cmpaining on behalf of those who may have businesses shut down, especially rural areas.

deepimpact

I've just discovered this in relation to the new pharmacist's contract the HSE posted to pharmacists in the first week of 2008,
Paraphrasing it it basically says
1. you will be paid what we think is an appropriate cost price regardless of what you pay for medicines
2. we will not pay you if your claims do not meet our (unspecified) conditions
3. we can terminate your contract at 3 months notice
4. We can change what we pay you unilaterally and if you do not like the new arrangements
your contract will be terminated
5. you have no right to any negotiations and your agreement is not required for any changes to the contract

Seems very fair, doesn't it?

Our man in Havana

That's a raw deal. :mad:

I support that pharmacists 100%.

deepimpact

(Hope that's not being sarcastic Bond )

There is a fear of 4,700 jobs being lost in the sector. Now if you take that it's fearmongering (which I don't think it is), and take half of that that's 2350 jobs gone, all for the sake of 1,000 jobs in hospitals or 60 beds.

The HSE is trying it on with all medical professionals, but what about the medley of admin staff employed across all sectors? I don't see them getting a pay-cut...

Oh, and pharmacists are threatening withdrawing services only in reaction to a payments decrease across all schemes, not to get more money.

But, I suppose Joe Public thinks otherwise...and that's the type of ignorance that needs to be combatted, as there are many misconceptions about the profession.

Gaspode

scanlant wrote: »

(Hope that's not being sarcastic Bond )

There is a fear of 4,700 jobs being lost in the sector. Now if you take that it's fearmongering (which I don't think it is), and take half of that that's 2350 jobs gone, all for the sake of 1,000 jobs in hospitals or 60 beds.

The HSE is trying it on with all medical professionals, but what about the medley of admin staff employed across all sectors? I don't see them getting a pay-cut...

Oh, and pharmacists are threatening withdrawing services only in reaction to a payments decrease across all schemes, not to get more money.

But, I suppose Joe Public thinks otherwise...and that's the type of ignorance that needs to be combatted, as there are many misconceptions about the profession.

Joe Public here! My understanding was that to take out their frustration with the HSE, the pharmacists were threatening to refuse to deal with the Drug Payment Scheme. (probably only one of many actions the IPU had planned).
I dont think that threat was followed through but I was quite annoyed about it at the time.
Personally, I think it is reprehensible that Joe Public could held to ransom by two organisations squabbling over money. (and bottom line, thats what it is; HSE want to cut costs, Pharmacists want to keep their margins intact) Plenty of people on Joe Publics side of the fence could not afford to pay for their overpriced life saving madicines without the DPS facility. I think this was an outrageous ploy by both parties in the dispute to use the poorest and least represented members of society as pawns.
While I wouldnt support the pharmacists on this, I think the HSE have a lot to answer for too, but thats they way they do negotiations isnt it. Its nothing new, so the pharmacists should find a different way to negotiate their case without involving Joe Public.

deepimpact

deswalsh wrote: »

Joe Public here! My understanding was that to take out their frustration with the HSE, the pharmacists were threatening to refuse to deal with the Drug Payment Scheme. (probably only one of many actions the IPU had planned).
I dont think that threat was followed through but I was quite annoyed about it at the time.
Personally, I think it is reprehensible that Joe Public could held to ransom by two organisations squabbling over money. (and bottom line, thats what it is; HSE want to cut costs, Pharmacists want to keep their margins intact) Plenty of people on Joe Publics side of the fence could not afford to pay for their overpriced life saving madicines without the DPS facility. I think this was an outrageous ploy by both parties in the dispute to use the poorest and least represented members of society as pawns.
While I wouldnt support the pharmacists on this, I think the HSE have a lot to answer for too, but thats they way they do negotiations isnt it. Its nothing new, so the pharmacists should find a different way to negotiate their case without involving Joe Public.

Well, thanks for the opinion des. None of the threatened actions have gone into effect yet (methadone thing was a seperate issue)

The IPU represents about 600 pharmacy OWNERS and is not a representative body for the approx 1,500 community pharmacists in the country at the present time. The HSE has said that the pharmacists have no right to a union since they are private contractors in the health system. To put this into context, the consultants were in the same boat, but due to their political clout, they got a pay increase (I supported them, and indeed the nurses dispute). Pharmacists will lose money on certain schemes (GMS) which will by default close approximately 300 pharmacies and result in the loss of about 5,000 jobs. GMS patients account for up to 70% of patients in a pharmacies register.

The actions are a last resort to negotiations, but since the HSE have said they will not negotiate, there may be disruptions in the future.

Going back to the OP, if pharmacists are whining and complaining, then what were the consultants and nurses doing?

<edit> oh and des, the pharmacists do not set the levels for the DPS scheme, which have gone up from 50 euro a few years ago to 90 euro now and is set by the HSE

Bison

deswalsh wrote: »

Joe Public here! My understanding was that to take out their frustration with the HSE, the pharmacists were threatening to refuse to deal with the Drug Payment Scheme. (probably only one of many actions the IPU had planned).
I dont think that threat was followed through but I was quite annoyed about it at the time.
Personally, I think it is reprehensible that Joe Public could held to ransom by two organisations squabbling over money. (and bottom line, thats what it is; HSE want to cut costs, Pharmacists want to keep their margins intact) Plenty of people on Joe Publics side of the fence could not afford to pay for their overpriced life saving madicines without the DPS facility. I think this was an outrageous ploy by both parties in the dispute to use the poorest and least represented members of society as pawns.
While I wouldnt support the pharmacists on this, I think the HSE have a lot to answer for too, but thats they way they do negotiations isnt it. Its nothing new, so the pharmacists should find a different way to negotiate their case without involving Joe Public.

Well Joe would you be happy if your boss walked down to the factory floor and said you all have to take a huge paycut, no negotiations, no unions, tough luck? What would you do, take it on the chin because "thats the way they do negotiations isn't it"? How would you feel walking home with half the pay you used to have but the factory office was still packed to the rafters with admin staff on full pay?

It is a pretty normal strategy to withdraw services to leverage a negotiation position. There are lots of inconvenienced people in airports these days but that doesn't make air traffic controllers wrong to demand adequate staff cover. This happens across many industries but people get outraged when this happens in the health service as they percieve a threat to their own health. How else can the pharmacists apply any pressure to the HSE?

hitbit

They don't die poor. Ever see one going bankrupt. Any idea how much profit they make on a single transaction. One experience I had after getting a prescription for several items from the Eye and Ear Hospital. Stopped into a late night Chemist in O'Connell St Dublin. After returning to my car I noticed that one tube of ointment I had been charged €11 for had a price tag €4.50 on it. This obviously meant it was available " over the counter" and did not require a prescription. I returned to the Chemist to question this. The assistants reaction " Oh that (referring to the price tag) should not have been left on there" as she glared at another assistant. She then promptly refunded me the difference. without apology or explanation. This was theft plain and simple. I do not suggest that all Chemists are the same and many have traditionally provided additional services like dressing wounds for children who have feel etc but that type of Chemist is disappearing and being replaced by the multinational corporate business conglomerate who's sole goal is profit.

hitbit

UrbanFox

HSE would like pharmacies to operate in Tesco, Aldi, Lidl, Superquinn or anywhere else that is CHEAP.....

That said, the HSE do have a duty to spend our tax Euros effectively but they just don't seem to be able to do it.

deepimpact

hitbit wrote: »

1- They don't die poor.
2-Ever see one going bankrupt.
3-Any idea how much profit they make on a single transaction.
4- One experience I had after getting a prescription for several items from the Eye and Ear Hospital. Stopped into a late night Chemist in O'Connell St Dublin. After returning to my car I noticed that one tube of ointment I had been charged €11 for had a price tag €4.50 on it. This obviously meant it was available " over the counter" and did not require a prescription. I returned to the Chemist to question this. The assistants reaction " Oh that (referring to the price tag) should not have been left on there" as she glared at another assistant. She then promptly refunded me the difference. without apology or explanation. This was theft plain and simple.

I do not suggest that all Chemists are the same and many have traditionally provided additional services like dressing wounds for children who have feel etc but that type of Chemist is disappearing and being replaced by the multinational corporate business conglomerate who's sole goal is profit.

hitbit

Just cleaned up the post to answer your questions
1- They will of the new price cuts come into effect (for rural and family run pharmacies, not multinationals)
2- Yes. Quite a few actually...
3- So profit is a sin now is it? Community pharmacy is a business, simple as that. But it is a business that provides specialist care to patients/public with no fee in relation to minor ailments and prescribed and over-the-counter medicines. The HSE wants to cut funding to pharmacies and for them to offer a whole range of new services. With staff cuts due if these services will not be provided, and even less services will be provided.
4- Agreed, that seems annoying. If that were me or most others I know, that would have been given over the counter (ie no need for a prescription).

angeldelight

As a 4th year Pharmacy student who is currently looking for a pre-reg placement in a community pharmacy which is required by law for me to practice as a pharmacist I can tell you it's not only affecting the general public. Several places are saying they can't commit to taking a pre-reg student this year due to the uncertainty about what is happening with the profession - that leaves myself and classmates in a pretty stressful position at the moment but at the same time we can't really blame them, the HSE have put pharmacies in a horrible position...

The price cut of 8% which will come into place on March first is only the first installment with a further 7% reduction coming down the line...
the reason? The HSE want to reduce the drugs budget which I suppose is understandable. However there are 3 different levels to the drug supply chain, the manufactureres who set their own cost price (particularly high for new drugs which are protected by patent), the wholesalers and then the community pharmacists. An agreement was made with manufacturers (IPHA agreement), Indecon were then asked to do a review of the sector and report back to the HSE which they did and their advice was promptly ignored - they said the next step was to deal with the wholesalers. The HSE started talks with them, they went and got legal advice and came back saying competition law says you can't ask us to restrict our prices in this way. Indecon recommended against the action currently being taken by the HSE citing future market disruption if they tried it... they obviously decided they didn't care and went ahead with it anyway.

There are currently legal challenges to this in the commercial courts with pharmacists taking a case for breach of contract against the HSE - while this is ongoing those pharmacists won't be retracting services as they are upholding their side of the contract so I wouldn't be too worried about losing access to your medicines.. unless of course you live in a small town where your local pharmacy may well close due to dispensing each GMS script at a loss while negotiations are ongoing.

Another nonsensical thing the HSE have done is set up an independent review board to assess the situation and report back at the end of May ( 3 months for a full strategic review and plan sounds farcical tbh) but are not waiting to see what the group reports back, they're just going to go ahead on March first anyway. It's extremely frustating, also in part because it has been poorly explained in the media unless you have an interest and try to follow it closely many people don't understand the root of the pharmacists' problem

Our man in Havana

I support the pharmacists 110% in their efforts to get a fair deal from the HSE. I was only talking to my local pharmacist the other day and he said he was considering closing shop unless he gets a fair deal from the HSE.

deepimpact

Bond-007 wrote: »

I support the pharmacists 110% in their efforts to get a fair deal from the HSE. I was only talking to my local pharmacist the other day and he said he was considering closing shop unless he gets a fair deal from the HSE.

I'm sure a lot of other pharmacists feel the same way about it Bond, and I'm 100% sure there will be job losses and closures of (mainly rural) community pharmacies. What does not help is the blatant spin being put on this by the HSE (see last Sunday's Indo -24th Feb) to try to reduce the support for pharmacists.

@ Angeldelight- what school are you in? I'm in exactly the same boat with the community placement. Most employers will not take any pre-reg students on due to the proposed HSE cuts

goldenmaverick

To the undergrads on this forum. How do feel about the prospect that you may never qualify as a Pharmacist because you won't get a pre-reg place as a result of the cuts?

Do you feel you "wasted" your high points on Pharmacy?

deepimpact

goldenmaverick wrote: »

To the undergrads on this forum. How do feel about the prospect that you may never qualify as a Pharmacist because you won't get a pre-reg place as a result of the cuts?

Do you feel you "wasted" your high points on Pharmacy?

We never said that there will be no job for us. The Pharmaceutical Society have an obligation to provide us with placements. I WILL qualify in 2009 as a pharmacist. I never made that clear. Sorry.

And no, I don't think I've "wasted" the last 4 years of my life in pharmacy. I actually have a career plan that extends into pharmaceutical industry. There is more to pharmacy than community, there are also hospital (which mostly cannot employ pre-reg students due to HSE staff-freeze).

goldenmaverick

scanlant wrote: »

We never said that there will be no job for us. The Pharmaceutical Society have an obligation to provide us with placements. I WILL qualify in 2009 as a pharmacist. I never made that clear. Sorry.

And no, I don't think I've "wasted" the last 4 years of my life in pharmacy. I actually have a career plan that extends into pharmaceutical industry. There is more to pharmacy than community, there are also hospital (which mostly cannot employ pre-reg students due to HSE staff-freeze).

But if the Pharmacies can't take on staff Paid Pre-reg placements will be nigh on impossible to get.

Our man in Havana

As said earlier The Pharmaceutical Society will have to place people somewhere. I am not sure if they obliged to pay during the placements.

deepimpact

goldenmaverick wrote: »

But if the Pharmacies can't take on staff Paid Pre-reg placements will be nigh on impossible to get.

In some hospitals they can't, and they are hard enough to get anyway. Community placements are tough to get at the moment, but it doesn't mean it will be impossible to get one (it's all about the contacts )

Bond-007 wrote: »

As said earlier The Pharmaceutical Society will have to place people somewhere. I am not sure if they obliged to pay during the placements.

That's actually true, but pay is usually around the minimum grade. The PSI guideline is between 300-400 euro a week.

SomeDose

As a pre-reg pharmacist currently working in the UK, I'm amazed that this action by the HSE could potentially prevent students getting pre-reg places. Am I right in assuming then that community pharmacies in Ireland don't get health board grants for pre-reg training (they do in the UK), which would effectively negate the argument that they can't afford to employ/pay students?

angeldelight

Scanlant - RCSI, yourself?

The thing is the PSI have absolutely no obligations to us really... how can they "force" a community pharmacist to take us onto their books? They can't. I'm totally sure I will qualify but I think a lot of people will get their offers later than usual - coming up to our finals which isn't great timing to be honest to have to keep missing lectures to attend interviews. The number of places who have got back in touch with me and said they are not taking someone this year is starting to get scary. And it's great for the people who have contacts but not so great for the rest of us!

No there are no pre-reg grants or anything, the pharmacist pays you out of your own pocket. Basically they're paying for the first half of the year not getting a whole lot of return but as the year progresses they basically have a pharmacist for less than half price, albeit with needing to check their work etc.

As for "wasting my high points" I think that question suggests I only did pharmacy because it was high points and well paid... I'd have done Pharmacy if it was 300 points.. it's not a waste, the stuff you learn in the degree alone is fascinating, it's a very challenging and varied degree. Also I enjoy working with people and will qualify as a pharmacist... I do believe pharmacists deserve to be paid reasonably well compared to some other freshly graduated workers purely because of the responsibility we're expected to carry. In saying that I think some of the salaries are ridiculously high but I'm certainly not going to say no

deepimpact

angeldelight wrote: »

Scanlant - RCSI, yourself?

The thing is the PSI have absolutely no obligations to us really... how can they "force" a community pharmacist to take us onto their books? They can't. I'm totally sure I will qualify but I think a lot of people will get their offers later than usual - coming up to our finals which isn't great timing to be honest to have to keep missing lectures to attend interviews. The number of places who have got back in touch with me and said they are not taking someone this year is starting to get scary. And it's great for the people who have contacts but not so great for the rest of us!

No there are no pre-reg grants or anything, the pharmacist pays you out of your own pocket. Basically they're paying for the first half of the year not getting a whole lot of return but as the year progresses they basically have a pharmacist for less than half price, albeit with needing to check their work etc.

As for "wasting my high points" I think that question suggests I only did pharmacy because it was high points and well paid... I'd have done Pharmacy if it was 300 points.. it's not a waste, the stuff you learn in the degree alone is fascinating, it's a very challenging and varied degree. Also I enjoy working with people and will qualify as a pharmacist... I do believe pharmacists deserve to be paid reasonably well compared to some other freshly graduated workers purely because of the responsibility we're expected to carry. In saying that I think some of the salaries are ridiculously high but I'm certainly not going to say no

Oh no, you're one of that crowd...I'm TCD

The PSI do have an obligation to provide pre-registration placements, according to my sources, otherwise most of my class will not fully qualify in 2009, and other courses.
I had my community placement sorted but that fell through, and due to commitments to the other 6 months, I need to start my pre-reg after my exams in July (viva's on the last week of June)! So I don't have much time to find a place willing to hire me.

As for the money aspect, sure some go into the profession for the money, about as much as some people go into teaching for the "cushy" holidays :rolleyes:

Anyway, back on topic...
There is a quick and easy solution to solve this dispute. It is to allow pharmacists to substitute generics for branded products the G.P. writes on the script. This would save well over the 100million they are trying to cut from the drugs budget, while keeping the margins the same.

angeldelight

The PSI do have an obligation to provide pre-registration placements, according to my sources, otherwise most of my class will not fully qualify in 2009, and other courses.

Hmm I was told not but the council of the PSI are meeting with RCSI students tonight and there'll be a Q&A so will let you know if we get a definitive answer!

deepimpact

Thanks, it is still hearsay on my part.

It's good to have a bit of inter-college cooperation once in a while

newestUser

angeldelight wrote: »

Scanlant - RCSI, yourself?
it's not a waste, the stuff you learn in the degree alone is fascinating, it's a very challenging and varied degree. Also I enjoy working with people and will qualify as a pharmacist...

I thought your degree bored you, and you couldn't bear to drag yourself out of bed in the morning to attend lectures (so you frequently skipped them)?

goldenmaverick

scanlant wrote: »

Community placements are tough to get at the moment, but it doesn't mean it will be impossible to get one (it's all about the contacts )

I was already talking to that guy, he 's going out of business In March

deepimpact

Very funny :rolleyes:
Do you have any other smart comments?

goldenmaverick

You haven't even qualified yet correct?, I've started (from scratch) three Pharmacies in the last ten years, you've not even finished your course yet.

When you have started you're own Pharmacy, we can talk at my level.
I don't need you tell me what's going on in the market.

I was trying to encourage debate on this topic but I can see I'm just talking to a kid who hasn't worked a day in his/her life.

Good luck finding a job when you eventually qualify, cos things ain't looking good.

SomeDose

scanlant wrote: »

Anyway, back on topic...
There is a quick and easy solution to solve this dispute. It is to allow pharmacists to substitute generics for branded products the G.P. writes on the script. This would save well over the 100million they are trying to cut from the drugs budget, while keeping the margins the same.

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. A significant proportion of meds prescribed in primary care cannot be generically interchanged (e.g. for psychiatric illnesses, certain CVS conditions etc), plus the fact that many common drugs are still on-patent with no generic alternative anyway. But yes, there is potentially a large saving to be made by generic substitution (we do it hospital on a daily basis), although the government doesn't seem too be making any serious attempts at it.

Does anyone have a reliable link (i.e. preferably non-media) which outlines exactly what the HSE are proposing here?

goldenmaverick

SomeDose wrote: »

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. A significant proportion of meds prescribed in primary care cannot be generically interchanged (e.g. for psychiatric illnesses, certain CVS conditions etc), plus the fact that many common drugs are still on-patent with no generic alternative anyway. But yes, there is potentially a large saving to be made by generic substitution (we do it hospital on a daily basis), although the government doesn't seem too be making any serious attempts at it.

Does anyone have a reliable link (i.e. preferably non-media) which outlines exactly what the HSE are proposing here?

www.ipu.ie

tallaght01

goldenmaverick wrote: »

You haven't even qualified yet correct?, I've started (from scratch) three Pharmacies in the last ten years, you've not even finished your course yet.

When you have started you're own Pharmacy, we can talk at my level.
I don't need you tell me what's going on in the market.

I was trying to encourage debate on this topic but I can see I'm just talking to a kid who hasn't worked a day in his/her life.

Good luck finding a job when you eventually qualify, cos things ain't looking good.

Goldenmaverick, as far as this forum is concerned, the length of time practising isn't proportionate to your right to comment on an issue.

We value the contribution from the students in here, and have a lot of good posters in that category from medicine, nursing, pharmacy and radiography (they're the ones that come to mind initially).

There's no need to be condescending to anyone.

Let's all just learn to love each other

Nothingcompares

goldenmaverick wrote: »

Do you feel you "wasted" your high points on Pharmacy?

what a bizarre and silly question

SomeDose

@Tallaght01: Fair point indeed.

The standard of press releases on the IPU website is tragic. PR spin and pulling of public heart strings notwithstanding, the HSE site actually provides a clearer picture. The issue here is that the HSE are effectively deciding on what they think is a reasonable price to pay for medicines, and hence the amount for which they will reimburse pharmacies. From what I can tell, the main points are:
- The HSE believe, rightly or wrongly, that the wholesaler's profit (not the pharmacies') is too high i.e. the price pharmacies pay wholesalers for medicines is too high.
- In theory, pharmacy profits should be unaffected since they are reimbursed the cost price of the medicines. The matter of discounts between wholesaler & pharmacy adds confusion to this point, however.
- The critical point here is that "The reimbursement price (the list price) is meant to cover the cost price of the medicines."

The HSE may well be correct in it's assertion that wholesalers are getting away with too much mark-up, but their approach to the issue seems misguided. Their own statements are contradictory:

"Firstly, the rate the HSE pays for wholesale services is not a matter for pharmacies – it would not be appropriate or right for them to determine what the HSE pays for wholesale services."

- Correct, except the HSE seems to have forgotten that it doesn't pay for wholesale services...it pays pharmacies to supply medicines purchased from wholesalers.

"With regard to wholesalers, in 2006 they refused to discuss these reforms with the HSE..."

- Outstanding dialogue process. Wholesalers are keeping their margins so the HSE accepts this without argument and makes pharmacies shoulder the burden instead.

"....Therefore, the HSE engaged in a more appropriate approach, in line with published Competition Authority guidelines, to establish fair and transparent arrangements for wholesale pharmaceutical supply. This process, over the last two years, included stakeholder consultation, public submissions and an extensive independent economic analysis - the aforementioned Indecon Report."

- Clearly, the second statement is ludicrous. There are 3 main stakeholders here; the public (HSE), pharmacies and wholesalers. One refused to participate and another (pharmacies) was consulted to little or no extent.

In theory, the HSE is right to re-evaluate the amount they reimburse pharmacies, whether it be below cost price or not. If they simply kept on reimbursing at cost, wholesalers could keep on increasing margins with no detriment to anyone except the taxpayer. In reality though, pharmacies are private contractors and cannot be expected to supply medicines at a loss.

This involves 3 different parties. The fundamental problem here is that the HSE have an issue with wholesalers margins, yet have failed to engage them in negotiation and seem determined to go ahead with reforms that actually do nothing to address this. Genius.

deepimpact

goldenmaverick wrote: »

When you have started you're own Pharmacy, we can talk at my level.
I don't need you tell me what's going on in the market.

I was trying to encourage debate on this topic but I can see I'm just talking to a kid who hasn't worked a day in his/her life.

Good luck finding a job when you eventually qualify, cos things ain't looking good.

Apologies first of all if I offended you, completely not my intention, but you didn't make helpful comments in your other posts e.g. "wasting high points on pharmacy" or the one I quoted that caused you to over-react.

In case you haven't forgotten, there are jobs outside community pharmacy...

I have actually worked in community pharmacy for 4 years during my studies, so before you make any other assumptions I am a hardworking person who earns a (small) wage. I'm not one of those rich parent types, just so you know.

The generics thing, yes I did make a very broad sweeping statement. Many, not all drugs off patent can be switched, but only if there are very similar pharmacokinetics.

Angeldelight, any word on last night?

irish_bob

i support the pharmacists , always found them the most helpfull of all those who work in the area of health , a pharmacist is quite happy to take you call in relation to a queerie you might have about a particular drug you were taking and discuss it with you

i once rang my gp about something having been with him 6 times in the previous 6 weeks and he was complaining about having to speak to me on the phone for no money

delop

tell me this....

Is it possible for a qualified Pharmacist say a French Citizen to get a license in Ireland to open a Pharmacy in Ireland?

And Why not?

N8

good luck to the pharmacists I can't believe that the HSE think they are going to get away with this- imagine if they were to do this to any other profession??

jeepers

delop wrote: »

tell me this....

Is it possible for a qualified Pharmacist say a French Citizen to get a license in Ireland to open a Pharmacy in Ireland?

And Why not?

I don't think they can for three years which seems unfair.

That said I don't think an irish pharmacist can open a pharmacy in France either or anywhere else for that matter. Why is this?

I assume Pharmacists can't just sit back and accept that treatment by the HSE. Does anyone know what they are planning to do? What should they do?

delop

The should probvide better value for money, like the the rest of the world is having to....

Does seem the HSE's demands are a bit high handed, but I have no problem with them trying to get better value for our tax € , Maybe the HSE should look into getting their supplies from the North....

There was a simalir incident in the UK 1 or 2 yrs ago...

jeepers

I agree "better value for money" is necessary. The HSE uses over a 1/3 of all public expenditure. I hope they're making savings closer to home also and that they publicize these so it doesn't look like they're protecting their own and making savings externaly only.

It's difficult to work out from all the spin from both sides but is this 100m coming from pharmacists only or will it come down to wholesalers/ manufacturers etc?

What's an average salary for a pharmacist/pahrmacy owner? I can see how chains and multiple pharmacy could be minted but the pharmacy owners in my area seem to be making nice but moderate livings(ie no big mansions/fancy cars etc), that said they could be squirling it all away and planning retirement at 50.

jeepers

delop wrote: »

There was a simalir incident in the UK 1 or 2 yrs ago...

What happened in the uk?

delop

jeepers wrote: »

What happened in the uk?

I cant find the article now, but the NHS told the Pharamist org that they would no longer just pay the price set by the Pharamists for drugs, said they were going to shop around for better value ...... Stop,, Stop, they fupped it up here is an update..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jan/31/uk.conservatives2


and this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6377743.stm

But there was something else a yr or two ago...

jeepers

Thanks Delop, that makes interesting reading.

Some similarities to here in that 100's of millions could be saved annually if pharmacists were allowed supply a generic instead of a brand. I think GP's are encouraged to prescribe brands also (probably by the manufacturers).

Not sure if it's just government policy to reward & encourage pharmeceutical R&D investment in Ireland(which has a lot of merit) or the powerful industry itself pulling the right strings. Who knows.

delop

jeepers wrote: »

Thanks Delop, that makes interesting reading.

Some similarities to here in that 100's of millions could be saved annually if pharmacists were allowed supply a generic instead of a brand. I think GP's are encouraged to prescribe brands also (probably by the manufacturers).

Not sure if it's just government policy to reward & encourage pharmeceutical R&D investment in Ireland(which has a lot of merit) or the powerful industry itself pulling the right strings. Who knows.

Jeepers you might beinterested in this too, Sorry to others but its way off topic, but it was a shocking documentary...

http://www.marxist.com/scienceandtech/dying_for_drugs.html

jeepers

Wow, frightening stuff.

Fortunately, in our country the impenetrable integrity of our public representatives will protect us from such corruption:)

goldenmaverick

Peace and love to all (except if you are Mary Harney)!

Deep Throatspray — says doctors can learn from pharmacists’ bitter experience
Let me start by saying that I like to think of myself as neither craven nor cowardly, but the history of the squalid war being waged against my profession by the HSE and the Government has convinced me to be cautious.

As you may or may not be aware, pharmacists have been targeted and harassed for taking part in protest action against HSE proposals. I think that it is important that other healthcare professionals know what lies in wait for them, but I have chosen not to draw attention to myself. I will use the nom de plume, or perhaps that should be nom de guerre, of Deep Throatspray.

I will not bore you with the finer details of the HSE proposals that are due to go ahead on 1 March, other than to state the bottom line, which is that the average pharmacy stands to lose about €70,000 a year.

Many pharmacies will not survive. Even the spin-doctoring merchants of bull***t hired by the HSE agree on this. But they are washing their hands of these casualties by saying the owners of these pharmacies are ‘over-extended’.

Every pharmacy has a legal contract with the HSE to provide a specific service for a set price. The supposedly ‘over-extended’ pharmacies are viable under the terms of this contract. The proposed HSE cuts would breach this contract. Many pharmacists have initiated legal action to prevent this breach. However, regardless of the outcome of any legal challenge, a long-term solution for the sector will require negotiation. This is where things have got dirty. Pharmacists were first told of these cuts back in September, and the cuts were to happen on 1 December last year.

The HSE refused to negotiate directly with the IPU, using the same ‘competition law’ nonsense that it will use with the IMO when it turns its rifles on you. During talks held via an intermediary, it became clear that no progress would be made and that the HSE was hellbent on proceeding with the 1 December deadline.

You know as well as I how difficult it is for healthcare professionals to take industrial action, but at a meeting of methadone-dispensing pharmacists, the decision was taken reluctantly to withdraw services in mid-October. (There is not much call for methadone in my neck of the woods, so I was not at the meeting, but I backed the move.)

Many of the most decent and humane pharmacists I know dispense methadone, and the decision was not made lightly. However, they knew that the HSE had the necessary resources to serve the methadone patients, if it chose to do so.

But the HSE’s contingency plan was a catastrophe — for instance, the queue of methadone patients at Steeven’s Hospital actually lapped the building, which must have made interesting viewing for Prof Drumm.

The only aspects of the HSE plan that worked had nothing to do with patient care. Their spin-doctors positively oozed concern for the methadone patients, but the other part of the HSE strategy was much more sinister. This involved the Competition Authority that, accompanied by Gardai, went to seven different pharmacists involved in the action and issued each with a summons to appear in court. As part of this ‘investigation’ the offices of the IPU were also raided and files and computer hard drives taken for examination.

Despite this State-sponsored intimidation, the methadone protest continued for another few days. The action was called off when the HSE offered to defer the proposed cuts to allow negotiations to take place.

Some pharmacists were reluctant to trust the HSE, but its botched handling of the crisis on the ground was putting lives at risk.

Unfortunately, this lack of trust was soon justified — within a couple of weeks the HSE had issued a new implementation date, despite no progress even in agreeing a process for negotiation, let alone any actual progress. And that is where we are today.

The message that I am sending to you, and to other healthcare professionals is that when dealing with the HSE, and with this Government, the rules of engagement have changed. Here are the new rules:


Any talk of how the Celtic Tiger era was built on social partnership now belongs in a history book;

The more dependent you are on a State cheque, the more the HSE will screw you. Doctors in high-GMS areas take note;

You can tell a HSE official is lying because his lips will be moving. Ditto, our Minister for Health; and

The hardest-working doctors in the HSE are spin doctors. Probably the best paid, also.
As Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get smashed in the mouth. You can be sure that the HSE has a plan for you. I advise you to hit them first. I’m not talking bare knuckle — I’m talking brass knuckle. Hit them until they bleed. Then rub in salt.

On second thoughts, to hell with the salt — reach for the phosphorous.

SomeDose

delop wrote: »

tell me this....

Is it possible for a qualified Pharmacist say a French Citizen to get a license in Ireland to open a Pharmacy in Ireland?

And Why not?

Of course it is. In fact, it's permissable for anyone (whether they're a pharmacist or not, and regardless of nationality) to open or own a pharmacy in ireland, assuming their pockets are deep enough. However, under current legislation a new pharmacy or one which is less than 3 years old must have a pharmacist who qualified in Ireland/Aus/NZ employed as the supervising/managing pharmacist. This is archaic legislation which has been repealed under Sections 26-29 of the new Pharmacy Act (2007) but has yet to be put into effect. The existing law was supposedly created to protect the domestic market from foreign markets, in which Irish-qualified pharmacists faced similar restrictions. The net effect is that it prevents all pharmacists (Irish or otherwise) who qualified outside of Ireland/Aus/NZ (e.g. the UK, where the majority of Irish pharmacists qualified anyway) from being employed as supervising pharmacists in pharmacies less than 3 years old. It does nothing to prevent foreign competitors from opening pharmacies here, as proved by the significant presence of Unicare, Boots etc in the Irish market.

I cant find the article now, but the NHS told the Pharamist org that they would no longer just pay the price set by the Pharamists for drugs, said they were going to shop around for better value ......

Again, pharmacies do not set the prices of drugs to the HSE. The pharmacies buy drugs at prices set by wholesalers, and are then reimbursed this cost by the HSE (plus markup in the case of drugs dispensed under the DPS, but not the GMS). The exact "cost" can be hard to determine, however, when discounts between wholesaler and pharmacy are factored into the equation. The fact remains that it seems wholesalers, despite having the least important input into patient care, will maintain their profits whilst pharmacies will suffer.

bleg

jeepers wrote: »

Wow, frightening stuff.

Fortunately, in our country the impenetrable integrity of our public representatives will protect us from such corruption:)

Actually the FF backbenchers are backing the pharmacists and going against the Govt/HSE. Obviously the opposition is on the pharmacists' side too.


The only real outcome i can see is the HSE backing down.

jeepers

goldenmaverick wrote: »

the average pharmacy stands to lose about €70,000 a year.

That's a lot of money but that does not mean it's wrong.

Firstly I do believe that pharmacists are entitled to a very good living and pharmacist owners are entitled to greater returns again to compensate for
risk. So if an average single-pharmacy owner's salary was being reduced from say 150k to 80k I would consider that an injustice but if it transpired that average salaries were going from 400k to 330k I would think fair enough.

Regardless I tend to support pharmacists because I believe they are being bullied. I was appaled to read an advert from the HSE that encouraged me to go to my pharmacy, check if they were withdrawing from dps scheme and if they were, demand my records, ring HSE and they will arrange an alternative pharmacy. This seemed a fairly transparrent attempt at enlisting me to intimidate my local pharmacy with a loss-of-business threat while disguised as concern for my well-being.

I'll get my monthly items before mar 1st.

That said I have no problem paying the excess both as a show of support and a rejection of the HSE's tactics. I would however be incensed if it transpired I was simply contributing to greatly excessive incomes.