The British Empire Thread

getz

its all to anti british ? when the republic started . like many irish men over the centuries my grandfather came over to england so he could feed his family --no one said you are no longer british get back ---the uk has always been irelands most importent importer --as your goverment said {thank you britain for you help during hard times} ---just as a final footnote--the catholic church {ie the pope }has been the largest empire builder-- in the name of religion anyone mentioned that?

brianthebard

Deleted User wrote: »

All a bit OT as this is about the British Empire not the famine, but I once read somewhere that the fishermen had to pawn their boats to buy food.

Most likely it was in this forum.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not sure if i've quoted this in this thread or not.

There is a saying that the Irish won the empire, The Scots administered it and the English lost it.

Not sure what the Welsh did, but I'm sure it was something.

Well the Welsh were the first ones to want to be British, so they kicked it all off I guess.

Nalced_irl

In all fairness, anyone who tries to make excuses for what the british empire did is, how do i say this without getting banned...blinkered? You can try and say "well look, these people did worse" and some have actually tried to use the Nazi`s as a justification?? If you need to use the Nazi`s to make what you did seem less harmful to humanity, you know well you did a huge amount of wrong. What i find bloody hilarious is an Englishman asking me "why do Irish people hate the English"? Firstly, Irish people as a race dont hate the English, we do hate English people who refuse to recognise the wrongs their country did all over the planet and actually feel proud of it but we dont just hate all English people. I actually answered a bloke who asked me that before by asking him how he feels about the Germans. You should have heard the rant he went on. Seems to him, its ok for him to hate the Germans for a short part of their past which most Germans are embarrassed about and fully know and feel sorry for the wrongs they did, yet he has the balls to ask me whos country has been occupied for centuries why i dont like them?? I realise its only a small amount of British people who are still that clueless and ignorant but with people like the BNP and a certain Glasgow club about, these types will never go. They echo the same "pride no matter what" sort of belief that made the empire and the same attitude that causes racial hatred. I know im ranting a bit here and when i read over it, it might be all over the place and stink of hatred but thats not the case, i assure you. I had about 200 points to make and im just throwing them in as they come to mind Anyway, english people of today, i dont have a problem with, once they dont attempt to talk politics with me and try and justify their actions in Ireland or any other country they destroyed. I think its important to remember the people there today for the most part feel sympathy for what the colonies went through, just a pity they dont voice it at their government a bit more.

PS. Excuse if this seems all over the place, a few drinks in and its hard to make sense. Ill try again tomorrow if its a mess of thoughts

LordSutch

Nalced_irl wrote: »

In all fairness, anyone who tries to make excuses for what the british empire did is, how do i say this without getting banned...blinkered What i find bloody hilarious is an Englishman asking me "why do Irish people hate the English"? Firstly, Irish people as a race dont hate the English, we do hate English people who refuse to recognise the wrongs their country did all over the planet and actually feel proud of it but we dont just hate all English people. Anyway, English people of today, i dont have a problem with, once they dont attempt to talk politics with me and try and justify their actions in Ireland or any other country they destroyed. I think its important to remember the people there today for the most part feel sympathy for what the colonies went through, just a pity they dont voice it at their government a bit more.

PS. Excuse if this seems all over the place, a few drinks in and its hard to make sense. Ill try again tomorrow if its a mess of thoughts

Cor Blimey, you did have a few drinks last night, didnt you

May I suggest, that you take a fresh look at Post#330 & Post#331 (after s strong Coffee) for a sober reflection on who actually created the 'British' Empire as opposed to the english empire, and dont worry,
I've gone off on one myself after a couple or glasses of wine on several ocassions only to regret my scribblings the next day - good luck & take it easy on the 'English'.

getz

as a catholic englishman who for a time went to a school in the republic in the early 1950s ---i can forgive most of the anti /brittish rants--i to was being told the history of ireland from one side--the brothers even banned football from the school -because it was not irish-thank god things are begining to change

ChocolateSauce

:pac:

Nalced_irl wrote: »

In all fairness, anyone who tries to make excuses for what the british empire did is, how do i say this without getting banned...blinkered? You can try and say "well look, these people did worse" and some have actually tried to use the Nazi`s as a justification?? If you need to use the Nazi`s to make what you did seem less harmful to humanity, you know well you did a huge amount of wrong. What i find bloody hilarious is an Englishman asking me "why do Irish people hate the English"? Firstly, Irish people as a race dont hate the English, we do hate English people who refuse to recognise the wrongs their country did all over the planet and actually feel proud of it but we dont just hate all English people. I actually answered a bloke who asked me that before by asking him how he feels about the Germans. You should have heard the rant he went on. Seems to him, its ok for him to hate the Germans for a short part of their past which most Germans are embarrassed about and fully know and feel sorry for the wrongs they did, yet he has the balls to ask me whos country has been occupied for centuries why i dont like them?? I realise its only a small amount of British people who are still that clueless and ignorant but with people like the BNP and a certain Glasgow club about, these types will never go. They echo the same "pride no matter what" sort of belief that made the empire and the same attitude that causes racial hatred. I know im ranting a bit here and when i read over it, it might be all over the place and stink of hatred but thats not the case, i assure you. I had about 200 points to make and im just throwing them in as they come to mind Anyway, english people of today, i dont have a problem with, once they dont attempt to talk politics with me and try and justify their actions in Ireland or any other country they destroyed. I think its important to remember the people there today for the most part feel sympathy for what the colonies went through, just a pity they dont voice it at their government a bit more.

PS. Excuse if this seems all over the place, a few drinks in and its hard to make sense. Ill try again tomorrow if its a mess of thoughts

Drinks indeed. Do try not to group people into groups. I don't hate anyone, and I'm Irish. I don't subscribe to the notion that to be Irish you have to "hate" the British.

Irish people as a race? Irish is a race? Don't mistake "race" for tribe. There is no such thing as an Irish race, and to claim so (even without meaning it) reminds me of nazism. Certainly, there were Irish tribes (the celts were a tribe), but racially we are virtually identical to the English, the Scots and the Welsh. The nearest group of people who could be considered a seperate race from us are the Slavs of far eastern Europe and the Arabs.

:pac:You should read my very long pro-Empire post.

ChocolateSauce

getz wrote: »

as a catholic englishman who for a time went to a school in the republic in the early 1950s ---i can forgive most of the anti /brittish rants--i to was being told the history of ireland from one side--the brothers even banned football from the school -because it was not irish-thank god things are begining to change

It is very one-sided. It is taught as propaganda. I'm sure it is probably the same in English schools and French school, etc. Every country paints their own spin on history. Only by reading a lot of sources from different view points and by critically evaluating what happened AND by having a great deal of knowledge about the historical background and attitudes of people can one form a truly unbiased view of history.

I'm a great historical buff and while I cannot say I know even a tenth of the facts regarding most events throughout history, I like to think that I am unbiased, or at least as much as one can be. Where I am biased I try to recognise it...for example, I generally have a more favourable historical view of countries which I view favourably today. I know this distorts the picture and I try my best to not do this, but I can't alway succeed.

McArmalite

Nalced_irl wrote: »

In all fairness, anyone who tries to make excuses for what the british empire did is, how do i say this without getting banned...blinkered? You can try and say "well look, these people did worse" and some have actually tried to use the Nazi`s as a justification?? If you need to use the Nazi`s to make what you did seem less harmful to humanity, you know well you did a huge amount of wrong. What i find bloody hilarious is an Englishman asking me "why do Irish people hate the English"? Firstly, Irish people as a race dont hate the English, we do hate English people who refuse to recognise the wrongs their country did all over the planet and actually feel proud of it but we dont just hate all English people. I actually answered a bloke who asked me that before by asking him how he feels about the Germans. You should have heard the rant he went on. Seems to him, its ok for him to hate the Germans for a short part of their past which most Germans are embarrassed about and fully know and feel sorry for the wrongs they did, yet he has the balls to ask me whos country has been occupied for centuries why i dont like them?? I realise its only a small amount of British people who are still that clueless and ignorant but with people like the BNP and a certain Glasgow club about, these types will never go. They echo the same "pride no matter what" sort of belief that made the empire and the same attitude that causes racial hatred. I know im ranting a bit here and when i read over it, it might be all over the place and stink of hatred but thats not the case, i assure you. I had about 200 points to make and im just throwing them in as they come to mind Anyway, english people of today, i dont have a problem with, once they dont attempt to talk politics with me and try and justify their actions in Ireland or any other country they destroyed. I think its important to remember the people there today for the most part feel sympathy for what the colonies went through, just a pity they dont voice it at their government a bit more.

PS. Excuse if this seems all over the place, a few drinks in and its hard to make sense. Ill try again tomorrow if its a mess of thoughts

Good post Nalced_irl, agree with most of what you said there, but what I find even more bloody hilarious is the little band of followers of west britishism asking "why do Irish people hate the English"? That was a good reply regarding asking an English man why did he dislike the Germans, but as an after thought, maybe asking one of them " Why do they hate the IRA ? " would hit the spot better

And comparisions between britian and the Nazi's....... well since britian was using concentration camps during the Boer War decades before the Adolf and co., murdering tens of thousands of people in Iraq with posionius gas, they even mangaed to do something the Nazi's couldn't achieve, the extermination of a race of people, the Tasmanian Aborigines....... People in glass houses etc

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Good post Nalced_irl, agree with most of what you said there, but what I find even more bloody hilarious is the little band of followers of west britishism asking "why do Irish people hate the English"? That was a good reply regarding asking an English man why did he dislike the Germans, but as an after thought, maybe asking one of them " Why do they hate the IRA ? " would hit the spot better

And comparisions between britian and the Nazi's....... well since britian was using concentration camps during the Boer War decades before the Adolf and co., murdering tens of thousands of people in Iraq with posionius gas, they even mangaed to do something the Nazi's couldn't achieve, the extermination of a race of people, the Tasmanian Aborigines....... People in glass houses etc

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

LordSutch

McArmalite wrote: »

Good post Nalced_irl, agree with most of what you said there.

I suspect that Nalced_irl was under the influence

McArmalite

Camelot wrote: »

And as for the 'Genocide' claims - what next, maybe the "English" created the potato blight

In the words of John Mitchell - " nature sent the potatoe blight, but britian created the famine ". Potatoe blight also hit England, the rest of Europe etc, but didn't inflict anywhere near the same amount of deaths there as their economy's had not been destroyed like Ireland's by british economic policies.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Fred, stop copying one of my stock in trade rebukes

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Fred, stop copying one of my stock in trade rebukes

say something interesting then

LordSutch

McArmalite wrote: »

In the words of John Mitchell - " nature sent the potatoe blight, but britian created the famine ". Potatoe blight also hit England, the rest of Europe etc, but didn't inflict anywhere near the same amount of deaths there as their economy's had not been destroyed like Ireland's by british economic policies.

‘A narrow, shallow & infantile explanation for the Irish Famine’ which in reality was caused by the Potatoe blight, which resulted in starvation, which was then accompanied by an epidemic of dysentery and typhus, which was then followed by cholera . . . .

To just blame the ‘Brit’s is just too easy & vapid an argument, we have moved on in our understanding, and now we recognise that the Famine was a very sad conglomerate of unfortunate issues all occurring at the same time - but to just blame the brits :rolleyes:

RSF Cill Dara

McArmalite wrote: »

In the words of John Mitchell - " nature sent the potatoe blight, but britian created the famine ". Potatoe blight also hit England, the rest of Europe etc, but didn't inflict anywhere near the same amount of deaths there as their economy's had not been destroyed like Ireland's by british economic policies.

The Great English Genocide of the Irish people might be a better title.

RSF Cill Dara

http://www.irishholocaust.org/britain%27scoverup

RSF Cill Dara

RSF Cill Dara wrote: »

http://www.irishholocaust.org/britain%27scoverup

Read some of the author's other work.
http://www.irishamericannews.com/col_froe.htm

Fratton Fred

Deleted User wrote: »

Read some of the author's other work.
http://www.irishamericannews.com/col_froe.htm

He sounds like a balanced, unbiased reasonable author. anyone would be mad not to believe what he says

why is it someone can write a load of crap, post it on the internet and suddenly it is the gospel truth.

LordSutch

Just read it, he sounds like a total nutter

Acacia

PDN wrote: »

All Empires are created and run by bullies.

Having said that, I think that there is a case for arguing that, historically, colonialism introduced democracy to some countries that, left to their own devices, would never have embraced democracy.

Hardly justifies all the oppression - but there you go!

How would you define democracy though? Is it democratic to rule over your own nation with a King who had demi-god status, as England had in the early years of the Empire? And then force foreign nations to accept this king as their own?

Which countries 'would have never have embraced democracy'? African countries or pre-colonial Australia? But these people had their own form of governments and it was working out fine for them, until the British came and tried to 'civilize the natives'.

I know that other empires were not very 'innocent' either (such as the Spanish conquest of Latin America), so I don't want my post to be construed as 'anti-British', I just don't think their actions should be justified by saying they brought democracy to other countries.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Irish people as a race? Irish is a race? Don't mistake "race" for tribe. There is no such thing as an Irish race, and to claim so (even without meaning it) reminds me of nazism. Certainly, there were Irish tribes (the celts were a tribe), but racially we are virtually identical to the English, the Scots and the Welsh. The nearest group of people who could be considered a seperate race from us are the Slavs of far eastern Europe and the Arabs.

Yes, the Irish are not a seperate race, but we have a different culture to the English, Scots, Welsh, etc. Is not not a bit reactionary to claim that it's 'close to nazism' to say the Irish are a separate race? What's wrong with not wanting to be lumped in with the Scots, Welsh and English?

That said, I agree that it's ridiculous to think that just because you're Irish you have to hate the British.

ejmaztec

Camelot wrote: »

Just read it, he sounds like a total nutter

Ranting Fogarty is an individual who says what he thinks Irish-Americans want to hear. He was probably good for fund-raising once upon a time, but now, like a lot of his ilk, he's a dinosaur.

ChocolateSauce

Acacia wrote: »

Yes, the Irish are not a seperate race, but we have a different culture to the English, Scots, Welsh, etc. Is not not a bit reactionary to claim that it's 'close to nazism' to say the Irish are a separate race? What's wrong with not wanting to be lumped in with the Scots, Welsh and English?

Culture is very distinct from race, and the poster was talking specifically about race. It echoes Nazism because they believed that German was a race (when it is merely a culture), and used that belief to justify their cultural-racism.

Acacia

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Culture is very distinct from race, and the poster was talking specifically about race. It echoes Nazism because they believed that German was a race (when it is merely a culture), and used that belief to justify their cultural-racism.

Did the Nazis not believe they were a part of the Aryan race? AFAIK, it wasn't the 'German' race they were bothered about, it was ensuring that the 'blue-eyed, blonde, fair skinned' Aryans were the master race. And wasn't that a separate issue to German culture?

In any case, 'Nazi' is a term bandied about far too much. Did the poster say he wanted to exterminate the non-Irish 'race'? It's like comparing apples and oranges, tbh.

ChocolateSauce

Acacia wrote: »

Did the Nazis not believe they were a part of the Aryan race? AFAIK, it wasn't the 'German' race they were bothered about, it was ensuring that the 'blue-eyed, blonde, fair skinned' Aryans were the master race. And wasn't that a separate issue to German culture?

In any case, 'Nazi' is a term bandied about far too much. Did the poster say he wanted to exterminate the non-Irish 'race'? It's like comparing apples and oranges, tbh.

The Nazi party's official policy was not to kill untermenschen, until about 1941. The Aryan "race" was a complete fabrication, when all it was was phenotypical expression. I agree the Nazi line is thrown about far too much, but I am not guilty of that offence here. I was merely remarking that referring to a tribe/culture/national group as a race is something the Nazis did. In my original post I specifically acknowledged the poster was not a Nazi, but merely misusing the term race: (

even without meaning it

).

Ahem, to keep this on topic, the Victorians were guilty of believing in an "English race". The British of the late 1800's were extremely racist. It was science, and not sociology, that eventually showed us that the term "race" actually has no material meaning. Scientifically, race isn't recognised as being a legitimate means of classifying organisms. Breed is the lowest (all dogs belong to the same species, but there are different breeds), and there is only one breed of homo sapien (seven species of human however).

Acacia

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

The Nazi party's official policy was not to kill untermenschen, until about 1941. The Aryan "race" was a complete fabrication, when all it was was phenotypical expression. I agree the Nazi line is thrown about far too much, but I am not guilty of that offence here. I was merely remarking that referring to a tribe/culture/national group as a race is something the Nazis did. In my original post I specifically acknowledged the poster was not a Nazi, but merely misusing the term race: ().

Ahem, to keep this on topic, the Victorians were guilty of believing in an "English race". The British of the late 1800's were extremely racist. It was science, and not sociology, that eventually showed us that the term "race" actually has no material meaning. Scientifically, race isn't recognised as being a legitimate means of classifying organisms. Breed is the lowest (all dogs belong to the same species, but there are different breeds), and there is only one breed of homo sapien (seven species of human however).

Fair enough, but I can understand the poster's desire for Irish people to be considered separate to Welsh, Scots, English etc. Though he was wrong to refer to the 'Irish race' (as I also stated in my first post).

I do agree about the Victorians being racist. There are some interesting cartoons from around this time depicting the Irish as monkeys, pigs, etc, particularly in the satirical magazine 'Punch'. It was this type of thinking that was used to justify colonization, no? It is not surprising, given such history, that the Irish would like to be considered as different to the British, imo.

I think that if you scratched the surface of all[i/] "civilized" societies of the past, you will find racism. The romans would feed christians to the lions for example, all western colonists who went to the Americas (possibly except the Pilgrim fathers), treated the indigenous populations with contempt.

How would the British empire compare to other colonial powers, ancient and recent (19th century)? remembering that Ireland was part of the british empire, even if some of the population didn't recognise that.

McArmalite

Camelot wrote: »

Getting back on track - I dont think the Bitish Empire would have been half so successful & powerful had it not been for the massive contribution of Ireland & the many tens of thousands of Irish men who helped to create the British Empire, indeed if the Empire was to be re-created 'today' it might be called the "British & Irish Empire", such was the contribution of Irish men to the cause.

This is not to belittle the contribution made by the English Scots & Welsh, but I doubt that they could have done it alone.

What a load of silly, patronising tripe.

The best contribution Ireland made regarding the british empire was in helping to break it up. Cann't say we single handly started it, but we did more than our fair share and that's something the vast majority of Irish people are quiet proud of, apart from our little unionist friends in the north east - like yourself.

McArmalite

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that if you scratched the surface of all[i/] "civilized" societies of the past, you will find racism. The romans would feed christians to the lions for example, all western colonists who went to the Americas (possibly except the Pilgrim fathers), treated the indigenous populations with contempt.

How would the British empire compare to other colonial powers, ancient and recent (19th century)? remembering that Ireland was part of the british empire, even if some of the population didn't recognise that.

:rolleyes: Must I have to repeat it again - " well since britian was using concentration camps during the Boer War decades before the Adolf and co., murdering tens of thousands of people in Iraq with posionius gas, they even mangaed to do something the Nazi's couldn't achieve, the extermination of a race of people, the Tasmanian Aborigines."

And not to forget also been among the worst slave traders ( Africa to the West Indies etc ) and drug pushers ( China and the Opium 'trade' ). How would the british empire compare to other colonial powers, well if their's a leaque table they'll surely be the hot favourites to win.

brianthebard

McArmalite wrote: »

What a load of silly, patronising tripe.

The best contribution Ireland made regarding the british empire was in helping to break it up. Cann't say we single handly started it, but we did more than our fair share and that's something the vast majority of Irish people are quiet proud of, apart from our little unionist friends in the north east - like yourself.

Are you not going to acknowledge the many Irish slave owners in the Caribbean, the soldiers in India, etc, etc?

McArmalite

McArmalite wrote: »

:rolleyes: Must I have to repeat it again - " well since britian was using concentration camps during the Boer War decades before the Adolf and co., murdering tens of thousands of people in Iraq with posionius gas, they even mangaed to do something the Nazi's couldn't achieve, the extermination of a race of people, the Tasmanian Aborigines."

And not to forget also been among the worst slave traders ( Africa to the West Indies etc ) and drug pushers ( China and the Opium 'trade' ). How would the british empire compare to other colonial powers, well if their's a leaque table they'll surely be the hot favourites to win.

Are you saying that the British empire was the only one that was bad! :pac:

Anong the worst slave traders; are there any nice slave traders!
You're rants against the British empire could be equally relevant to almost all the other in history.

Look at the legacy those ancient empires left behind: roman roads exist all over europe for example, many european languages have deep roots in latin, the justice system in many countries is based on the Laws of the UK (British empire).