6N's thus far..boring error strewn snorefest..why?

toomevara

After two weekends, the rugby's been utterly appalling....error ridden, style free, flair free zones....just mildly organised mob violence with an oval ball...What in the name of the lord is going on??..

The heineken cup is far, far more entertaining in every meaningful sense ....Why my dear rugby friends? Why??

Ulstermell0

the second halves in the england games have been entertaining to watch!

Steffano2002

You found France -v- Ireland boring???

Watch golf or cricket for a year and then start watching rugby again...

toomevara

Steffano2002 wrote: »

d:

Watch golf or cricket for a year and then start watching rugby again...

France V Ireland a very poor game of rugby for the neutral. Love Cricket, anything but boring when you understand it;)

flyswatter

toomevara wrote: »

France V Ireland a very poor game of rugby for the neutral. Love Cricket, anything but boring when you understand it;)

I really don't agree with this. France's back three were brilliant to watch for most of the match with their great running game. Then you had the Irish comeback. Entertaining, no?

toomevara

flyswatter wrote: »

I really don't agree with this. France's back three were brilliant to watch for most of the match with their great running game. Then you had the Irish comeback. Entertaining, no?

Yes entertaining in spits and spats, I agree...but I'm talking about the quality of the rugby across two weekends and six games...dire, attritional stuff with the odd moment of (invariably french) brilliance....Wales V Scotland....awful, Italy V England, Ireland..dear God save me....Scotland V France snore...the standard has in general been extremely and undeniably poor......

Sangre

Eh...I couldn't disagree more.

I thought the Wales v England, France v Ireland and Italy v England were are all great games. Whether due to the display of the team or the tension built up in the game.

Players running the length of the pitch constantly is usually a sign of a BAD game of rugby.

toomevara

Sangre wrote: »

Eh...I couldn't disagree more.

I thought the Wales v England, France v Ireland and Italy v England were are all great games. .

Good lord, I must be going doo-lally or something, wouldn't call any of those 'great games' of rugby for a whole host of reasons, the skill levels on display were to my eyes hilariously awful for international level rugby....maybe I'm hopelessly cynical and expect too much...anyone agree with me re: the poor standard or should I just put the crack pipe away?

Sangre

Well I don't necessarily requite a game to have a very high skill level to classify it as great. All it has to do is entertain me. I don't think most people do, otherwise why would anyone follow school rugby.

Although Ireland v Italy was a shocker.

flyswatter

toomevara wrote: »

Yes entertaining in spits and spats, I agree...but I'm talking about the quality of the rugby across two weekends and six games...dire, attritional stuff with the odd moment of (invariably french) brilliance....Wales V Scotland....awful, Italy V England, Ireland..dear God save me....Scotland V France snore...the standard has in general been extremely and undeniably poor......

You were referring to one game (France v Ireland) in the reply I quoted you from. I disagreed because I believe it was a good match. I didn't say anything about the tournament as a whole. I believe the 6 nations as a whole has been average in terms of play over the 2 weekends, just note that I was only referring to one match in my comments above.

Sherifu

Error strewn, yes. Boring snorefest, no.
Standard could be better, but it's still entertaining.

toomevara

flyswatter wrote: »

just note that I was only referring to one match in my comments above.

No worries, I realised that, but duly noted anyhow.

flyswatter

I'm just after remembering how I enjoyed the England v Wales game, purely for how crazy it was.

bleg

Hc > 6n

Shan75

I think some of the games have been entertaining at times.The skill levels and quality of rugby have been poor mainly with only France at times playing decent rugby(and to be fair to them at least they are trying to play attacking and attractive rugby).Maybe the quality of the H Cup games has been higher due to the fact that there are Southern Hemisphere players involved or is just that it looks like the quality is better due to players having more time so they don't make as many errors?

bleg

very good article up on planet rugby about the 6N, i think it hits the nail square on the head.

If the Six Nations is to continue in the same vein as the opening two rounds, then we may as well call it a day now, hand France the Grand Slam, Scotland the Wooden Spoon and save ourselves the time and effort.

Let's not kid ourselves, a Vincent Clerc hat-trick aside, it has hardly been a tournament full of action-packed rugby, quite the opposite in fact. This weekend did little to change that fact and while we saw two frantic finishes in Paris and Rome the rugby was not exactly of international quality. That is everyone's except France's, although even they looked little more than a village team at times, especially in defence.

Cardiff was brimfull of hope and expectation on Saturday, the roof was open in the Millennium Stadium for fear it might even boil over as Warren Gatland and his troops were welcomed home. Eighty minutes of distinctly average rugby later and the stadium was desperately flat. Yes Wales tried to play rugby but trying doesn't always equate to achieving.

But at least they tried, unlike Scotland who seem not to even know the word 'try' exists let alone understand the meaning of it. That, with only the boot of Chris Paterson to rely on, Scotland were in the game for a good sixty-five minutes goes some way to showing how bad Wales' finishing abilities were, and even then they needed a sizeable slice of luck via the TMO to secure the game.

One has to feel for Frank Hadden as there is little else available to him. He is not in a position as a club coach, where new talent can be brought in, instead he has to make do with a bad bunch - a devil's job at best. At least Gatland has the raw talent available to him, it is now a case of harnessing it into an effective and cohesive team.

France continued their renaissance in Paris, for sixty minutes anyway, while Ireland spent most of the game chasing shadows - Vincent Clerc's in particular. The ease with which they put Ireland to the sword was, depending on the colour of your blood, either alarmingly easy or a joy to behold. A shame all that hard work was laid to waste late on then.

You can offer up as many excuses as you like, even present an unmistakable scapegoat in the form of Julien Brugnaut, but there is no escaping the truth of the matter. Having done the job against a poor Irish outfit the French simply switched off, it was as if they were mentally in the showers already. Ireland came back and even had a crack at winning it, but clearly ran out of ideas when the pressure was really on.

It can only be a matter of time before heads start to roll; how the IRFU must be ruing their decision to extend Eddie O'Sullivan's contract BEFORE the World Cup. O'Sullivan will be taking refuge in the fact Ireland welcome Scotland to Croke Park next, a sure thing even for Ireland.

As promised, Marc Lièvremont ensured France maintained their attacking ingenuity despite the glut of changes he made, although he was taught one valuable lesson - never leave a man of Vincent Clerc's ilk out in the first place. The task facing Lièvremont now is deciding, from the two games he has overseen, what his best XV is, an altogether better position than O'Sullivan finds himself in.

Spare a thought, if you will, for Brian Ashton then - who again had the misfortune of watching his England side do their best to throw away a game they had seemingly won. That they managed to hold on this week will be of scant consolation, as defeat against Italy would have represented hitting rock bottom.

No disrespect to Italy, for they have developed beyond measure over the last five years, but they have reached their saturation point. Even under Nick Mallett it is hard to see them getting too much better, although a few more passes in front of the player wouldn't harm their chances. Several overlaps were wasted with poor, nay, atrocious passes. If an U11 team can execute the most basic of passing skills then one would expect paid professionals to be able to do the same.

So in Scotland and Italy we have two teams with as much imagination as a bored donkey, while England are only marginally better themselves. Ireland, bless them, are in serious denial, and Wales are promising much without delivering a great deal, relying on good fortune as much as good rugby. Leaving us with France, the only side capable of creating and finishing genuine scoring chances.

Fair to say then the bookies should no longer be taking bets on a French Grand Slam or a Scottish Wooden Spoon, but instead on the next Irish coach or on how many points England will concede in the first half in Paris.

toomevara

Thats more or less precisely what I'm getting at. Once you remove the passion of local national rivalries and the pageantry surrounding the competition, you're basically left with alot of extremely mediocre rugby.

Posters' above have mentioned how 'entertaining' the 6N is, and I agree...to a point...but, there's a big difference between entertainment and quality and, imo, the six nations thus far has failed miserably to deliver...

Stev_o

I dunno maybe its gotten to the stage where every team is the same as the one before it. I mean how many times have teams played "that" Scotland squad, "that" Italian squad, "that" Ospreys squad, "that" Irish squad and "that" England squad. France are the only one's who look in anyway different but how long will that last until we get used to them?

I think the problem is that we are going round in circles in team development to the point where every team knows the other team inside out. So i dunno maybe we are going to have to wait a year or so more to see whats coming up. Surely in England they have a whole squad of youth with the average age of something like 25 so when will the line be drawn and they are completely involved at senior level? Scotland have to address whether they should select so many players playing outside of Scotland for their XV cause they just look lost.

Wales have to beg IRB at this stage to let them use old has been New Zealand players. Italy dont have any choice put to look to their youth

And ourselves are stuck debating on whether young players should break through to the Provincial level and finally the Senior setup before they end up just playing in the AIL for all their life

spank_inferno

I agree with the OP. The games have been entertaining but yes the quality is poor. However I kinda expected as much.
This championchip is a bit of a write-off for Eng/Fra as they are building to the future, if they win it, fine if not they are rebuilding anyway.
Scotland & italy seem to have a concrete ceiling they cant break through in terms of talent. That leaves Ire & wales to make it happen. Largely intact squads from the WC either side should be taking this tournament by the scruff of the neck... I emphasiseshould!

Sangre

toomevara wrote: »

Thats more or less precisely what I'm getting at. Once you remove the passion of local national rivalries and the pageantry surrounding the competition, you're basically left with alot of extremely mediocre rugby.

Posters' above have mentioned how 'entertaining' the 6N is, and I agree...to a point...but, there's a big difference between entertainment and quality and, imo, the six nations thus far has failed miserably to deliver...

In that case I don't disagree with you. Some poor skill levels on show.

flyswatter

Tony Ward's article in today's Indo was largely spot-on. Ireland are not living up to their attacking potential at all. IMO there is nothing more frustrating in rugby than when a team has quality backs but factors such as poor backline tactics and the like strangle their ability to show the talent they so clearly have.

marco_polo

toomevara wrote: »

Thats more or less precisely what I'm getting at. Once you remove the passion of local national rivalries and the pageantry surrounding the competition, you're basically left with alot of extremely mediocre rugby.

Posters' above have mentioned how 'entertaining' the 6N is, and I agree...to a point...but, there's a big difference between entertainment and quality and, imo, the six nations thus far has failed miserably to deliver...

Isn't this all that is good about the 6 nations, and why I prefer it to the 3N even though the skill level is often slightly higher down under, despite what Nick Mallet thinks I feel the games in the 6N generally seem like a much more competitive competition.

I would broadly agree with you about the quality of the games so far, however traditionally the first few games in the 6Nations tend to be the worst until the teams become more familiar with each other having not played together for a while (Remember this year the gap since the player last played together has been even longer than usual because there were no November internationals).

Having said all that there have been enough exciting games to keep me entertined so far this year, and I hope even better to follow in the next month or so.

CJhaughey

6N has degenerated into a second rate competition, all it really has is history.
To keep it fresh they need to inject new blood into the system by bringing in a team like Argentina.
and maybe relegating the poorest team for the next season.

toomevara

marco_polo wrote: »

Isn't this all that is good about the 6 nations, and why I prefer it to the 3N

Agree completely, but we've got to get some quality rugby in there. When you look at the flair and skill levels displayed week in week out in the Heineken cup, and then contrast the type of brain-dead, second rate crap seen in alot of the 6N's so far you've got to ask yourself what the problem is...

This, I suppose, is the whole point of this thread...I'd like people to give their perspectives on why rugby union at international level of late (including the WC )is becoming, odd good game aside, increasingly dull and unwatchable...just big, increasingly indistinguishable blokes running into each other at full throttle (Yes, yes I know its got its place) but where's the invention, flair, and intellect (French backline aside)?

And why do so many professional international class players seem to lack basic handling skills and exhibit a maddening inability to read a game...there were countless examples on show last weekend..eg when James Hook, squandered a clear four man overlap...schoolboy stuff...are we somehow strangling the life out of the game?

I would broadly agree with you about the quality of the games so far, however traditionally the first few games in the 6Nations tend to be the worst until the teams become more familiar with each other having not played together for a while (Remember this year the gap since the player last played together has been even longer than usual because there were no November internationals).

Good point, hope you're right....

Crash

Part of it, imo, is how defense is dealt with in the international game - the level of defense is much much higher than at the HC, and it does slow down a game a huge amount.

toomevara

çrash_000 wrote: »

Part of it, imo, is how defense is dealt with in the international game - the level of defense is much much higher than at the HC, and it does slow down a game a huge amount.

Thats spot on I reckon, but, isn't there an onus then on teams and coaches to surmount the dreaded blitz defence, to come up with a way of cracking it, getting over it, around it, through it..

At the minute all were getting is, and Scotland are a really good example of this,...we can't score tries against you, effectively we're not good enough so, instead of trying to play rugby, we'll just strangle the life out of the game by playing in an overwhelmingly negative fashion... and guess what, the game of rugby union actively rewards this sort of puke rugby...

Teams which try to play like Wales, and God bless 'em France (for whom playing attacking rugby is not an option but a way of life) are actively punished and can come off second best....

The last genuinely 'great game' of international rugby I've seen was Wales V Fiji (arguably the only decent game in the whole bleedin' competition) in the WC, where two skillful, committed, attack oriented teams went out to play rugby and score tries....It can be done, but all the emphasis is on defence...

JWAD

CJhaughey wrote: »

6N has degenerated into a second rate competition, all it really has is history

Balls it has. Ask any player or coach. Ask any of the people in the crowds who pack each international.
It is faster than ERC and tougher than ERC.
This is why RU has it spot-on. The order of the 'food-chain' so-to-speak is absolutely correct. A club player aspires to being an ERC 'club' player. Then they aspire to being an international player. There is nothing higher than it and playing in the 6N for their country is a NH player's highest peak of ambition.

Crash

toomevara wrote: »

The last genuinely 'great game' of international rugby I've seen was Wales V Fiji (arguably the only decent game in the whole bleedin' competition) in the WC, where two skillful, committed, attack oriented teams went out to play rugby and score tries....It can be done, but all the emphasis is on defence...

Last great game involving an international team that I saw was when I went over to twickenham for the Baba's vs SA. pity more matches can't pull off the same level of pure competence that every player showed during that game.

Stev_o

If Fiji were in the 6N they would have won every match by now ^^

But it seems every country bar France [and lets remember now that in no match so far have France been chasing the game so we dont know what will happen if they have a margin to climb to] is resorting to the same old crap we saw in the RWC. Maybe its the whole idea that you only get 5 matches and that if you do anything high risk it ll cost you the tournament and thus we are seeing teams kicking for the sake of kicking when they could have a overlap or a mismatch out wide.

If i look to the remaining matches i sadly cant see them entertaining like HC matches would be. They will all focus on forward dominant play and stupid kicking every time you have the ball play.

toomevara

JWAD wrote: »

It is faster than ERC and tougher than ERC.
.

Wouldn't always agree, all recent wasps/munster encounters have displayed an intensity, speed and skill level easily equal to that of a 6N match. A Gloucester/ Leicester. Bath/Bristol match will also produce the same, if not greater level of intensity and commitment

JWAD

toomevara wrote: »

Wouldn't always agree, all recent wasps/munster encounters have displayed an intensity, speed and skill level easily equal to that of a 6N match. A Gloucester/ Leicester. Bath/Bristol match will also produce the same, if not greater level of intensity and commitment

Watch these teams in a semi-final or final situation. They shut up shop. Eactly like the French ERC sides. Why do they do this? Way too much to lose. Just like another competition or two which have been mentioned in this thread.
Only when ERC reaches a non-group stage does it even come close to international level or the 6N.

toomevara

JWAD wrote: »

Only when ERC reaches a non-group stage does it even come close to international level or the 6N.

I would agree, unless you get groups of death like Munster/Wasps/CA...! But once you get group knock out matches, QF's and Semi's the quality of the rugby is generally superb. Although paradoxically the worst final I've been to was the Perpignan/Toulouse sh1tefest in Landsdowne....

Snickers Man

toomevara wrote: »

This, I suppose, is the whole point of this thread...I'd like people to give their perspectives on why rugby union at international level of late (including the WC )is becoming, odd good game aside, increasingly dull and unwatchable...just big, increasingly indistinguishable blokes running into each other at full throttle (Yes, yes I know its got its place) but where's the invention, flair, and intellect (French backline aside)?

Because of the way the laws are at the moment and the clear indication laid down by the ELVs about how the laws are going to be in the future. There will soon be no variety in the game apart from two lines of "big, increasingly indistinguishable blokes running into each other at full throttle".

It was noticeable in the France Ireland game that Ireland came back into it when they decided to take France on up front and mince them back in the tight without moving the ball out to the wings where the French were clearly superior.

Boring rugby? Maybe. But it's a game of contrasts. France knew they had pace to burn out wide so every time they got a turnover they moved it wide quickly. They got their fair share of lucky bounces and the rub of the green too but you have to credit the pace at which they put their wingers into space.

The Irish backline, once the team's strong point, is stale and lacking in confidence. It also doesn't have the gas that it once had. The retirement of Dennis Hickie has robbed us of our one true speed merchant. On Saturday, Ireland's backs looked ponderous and outnumbered. The French by contrast always looked to have space and men free. They also had devastating pace.

So even the lucky grubber kick that bounced into Heymans' hands from O'Driscoll's nads for their fourth try, still needed the blistering pace of Heymans to turn the opportunity into a try.

Ireland couldn't match the French at that. So they tried to play the game where they found they were superior. And it nearly worked. Fair bloody play to the team for doing that. For having the nous to work out a profitable way to play and the determination to execute it.

And speaking of execution, it galls me to say it but Geordan Murphy is a liability on the wing and should face the firing squad. Three French tries came down his side, once when he was AWOL leaving Leamy to try and outpace Clerc. Never going to happen. Once when he missed a tackle on Skrela which allowed him to put Clerc into space. And finally when the sheer pace of Heymans running into the gap put Clerc through for his third try.

But his biggest sin was a grubber kick into space when we were clearly on the last play. WTF was that about? If they had kept the ball in hand for a few phases more, the French defence might have cracked.

As Brian Ashton said about a similarly ill advised kick ahead in an almost identical situation against Scotland ten years ago. "I don't know whose idea that was but it was nothing to do with me"


So coming to the point. Rugby is a game of contrasts. There are many different ways of playing it. The skill is to play to your strengths and prevent the opposition playing to theirs. We let France away with murder in the first half, turning over ball easily and cocking up our own lineout.

In the second we got a bit of control and momentum going, using our pack primarily. Not as photogenic as the French running game maybe but the contrast is what makes the French flair stand out.

Snickers Man

bleg wrote: »

very good article up on planet rugby about the 6N, i think it hits the nail square on the head.

If the Six Nations is to continue in the same vein as the opening two rounds, then we may as well call it a day now, hand France the Grand Slam, Scotland the Wooden Spoon and save ourselves the time and effort.

good article my hole.

A load of whingey, negative, patronising, insulting, ignorant bollox written by some chump who doesn't know what he's talking about.

I don't think France will win the Grand Slam this year. I think Wales could take them. In fact, as a long shot, I think Italy could take them if they get as many lucky breaks in Paris as they got against Scotland in Murrayfield last year. And given the way France are playing, there's every chance that they could.

For what it's worth, let me stick my neck out and give you the final running order.

1 Ireland 8pts
2 Wales 8pts
3 France 6pts
4 England 4pts
5 Scotland 2pts
6 Italy 2pts

OK, so I'm not a bookie. But the 6N is always unpredictable. I think this year will be no exception.

toomevara

Snickers Man wrote: »

So coming to the point. Rugby is a game of contrasts. There are many different ways of playing it. The skill is to play to your strengths and prevent the opposition playing to theirs. We let France away with murder in the first half, turning over ball easily and cocking up our own lineout.

In the second we got a bit of control and momentum going, using our pack primarily. Not as photogenic as the French running game maybe but the contrast is what makes the French flair stand out.

An excellent analysis all round imo, and wholeheartedly agree on the contrasting styles element. When I'm talking about quality rugby, I don't of course, just mean dazzling back play...Just look at Martyn Williams performance for Wales last wknd, poetry in motion, a back row masterclass. I absolutely loved the way the Italians took the vaunted english pack apart on Sunday. They say you cant defend against a well set up rolling maul, but the Italians showed how you do it, amazing...the best forward display I've seen from a NH side in a long time...

Grid.

Forget the 6N's folks!! Super 14 starts on Friday!! Now theres entertainment!!

toomevara

Gridlock wrote: »

Forget the 6N's folks!! Super 14 starts on Friday!! Now theres entertainment!!

Gonna be fascinating, especially with the elv's...hopefully might put the emphasis back on attacking play...who knows, if they work out, may even see them in the 6N's before long.....

JWAD

Gridlock wrote: »

Forget the 6N's folks!! Super 14 starts on Friday!! Now theres entertainment!!

Aussie teams need a damn good run. Game not in good health there
ELVs will be very interesting indeed.

C'arn the Tahs!

il gatto

The 6N takes place every year. You're bound to hit on the odd run of not so great championships. That said, last year went down to the wire, as did the few years preceding it (more or less). Apart from England, the rest of the teams are coming off the back of a dire WC, and England know they didn't deserve (quality wise) to be in the WC final.
The fear of losing rather than the strive to win strangles the life out of alot of games. I still think it's entertaining though.
The 3N imo is a lesser competition. Very few of the games reach the levels of anticipation and atmosphere of the 6N. In the 3N, the teams get a couple of cracks at each other, meaning if you lose a match, you don't have to wait until next year for revenge.
Because it's not as vital to win every match, there is a more attacking attitude, but when these teams play in the WC in a tight, competitive one off, they lose the bottle the same as the NH teams. When NZ had their backs to the wall, all they could do is pick and drive the way Scotland would. And I'd rather watch the HEC over the Super14 any day. I can see why people think the opposite, but that's just my view on it.

Xavi6

Gridlock wrote: »

Forget the 6N's folks!! Super 14 starts on Friday!! Now theres entertainment!!

Oh yes! Really lookin forward to it and I wouldn't be a hard core rugby man by any means.

JWAD wrote: »

Aussie teams need a damn good run. Game not in good health there
ELVs will be very interesting indeed.

C'arn the Tahs!

G'wan the Force!!!

Grid.

S14 kicked off today with Crusaders getting off to a flyer by thumping the Brumbies 34-3 in Christchurch with Dan Carter top scorer and collecting a bonus point!!, while in Durban the Sharks beat the Western Force 17-10 with a late penalty from Francois Steyn who replaced Freddie Michalak at flyhalf to win! Surprisingly the Reds , last seasons wooden-spooners actually won a match, beating the Highlanders 22-16 in Brisbane with tries from Roe and Schifcofske!!

Saturdays fixtures are:

Blues v Chiefs
Waratahs v Hurricanes
Stormers v Bulls
Cheetahs v Lions

"Come on Chiefs":D

toomevara

How did the ELV's go?

Grid.

Can't really tell as of yet, searchin through the sites to get some feedback!

toomevara

Watching the sharks v the force at the minute..alot of aimless kicking at the minute, and undefended rucks....early days I spose....

The new touch judges role seems pretty effective.....

toomevara

Dear Jesus, what in the name of all that's holy is going on with this years six nations? After saturday's games i felt I'd taken about 5 Temazepam followed by a Mogadon chaser.....appallingly poor rugby from all four teams involved...

Its a bloody disgrace that four of the worlds oldest rugby playing nations serve up that kind of drivel at the (alleged) top level of the sport....Thank God for france V Italy..at least both teams tried to play some rugby.....Utter bilge....and apart from Wales V France next weekend "super saturday" (ho ho how we laughed) promises to deliver more of the same stodgy sh1te.....

I'm off to Twickers...am bringing a cattle prod to keep myself awake...spose I can amuse myself by baiting the usual assemblage of braying toffs....

Oh and while I'm on the subject, Wales are massively overrated (by their own good selves as usual) this year....any half decent team will mince them..as they'll find out against the french next weekend, the only half decent team in the competition....

anonymous_joe

"It's a bit early to say what I'll do but if you were looking for an experienced midfielder, you'd be looking at Shane Horgan," O'Sullivan continued.

Eddie on who we put in at centre.

That's your answer btw - conservatism. Inability to encourage risk taking, tactical rigidity and a bankruptcy of flair.

Webbs

toomevara wrote: »

Oh and while I'm on the subject, Wales are massively overrated (by their own good selves as usual) this year....any half decent team will mince them..as they'll find out against the french next weekend, the only half decent team in the competition....

While I admit Wales are definitely a work in progress, why do you say they are so overrated.
They have been very effective in the forwards where they have in the past been possibly the weakest team in the 6N. They out muscled Ireland on the weekend and a bit more precision would have seen far more scores (similarly they had no problem against Italy and Scotland both forward orientated teams).
Wales have tried to play rugby in the games they have played - the opposition have employed on the whole (apart form 1 half from England) tactics that negate Wales first rather than trying to play their own games. Surely this is a back handed compliment from the other teams, shows that the other teams dont think wales are massively overrated.
Of course I am biased and I know that Wales have yet to prove much, in Dublin on the weekend nearly all the Welsh fans I spoke to were amazed at the success this season believing that this is a start that will at some point have its set backs, and we are not overnight gone from crap WC to world beaters, but for this tournament we obviously believe we can now win it. Would Ireland fans feel any different if the shoe was on the other foot?

anonymous_joe

Webbs wrote: »

While I admit Wales are definitely a work in progress, why do you say they are so overrated.
They have been very effective in the forwards where they have in the past been possibly the weakest team in the 6N. They out muscled Ireland on the weekend and a bit more precision would have seen far more scores (similarly they had no problem against Italy and Scotland both forward orientated teams).
Wales have tried to play rugby in the games they have played - the opposition have employed on the whole (apart form 1 half from England) tactics that negate Wales first rather than trying to play their own games. Surely this is a back handed compliment from the other teams, shows that the other teams dont think wales are massively overrated.
Of course I am biased and I know that Wales have yet to prove much, in Dublin on the weekend nearly all the Welsh fans I spoke to were amazed at the success this season believing that this is a start that will at some point have its set backs, and we are not overnight gone from crap WC to world beaters, but for this tournament we obviously believe we can now win it. Would Ireland fans feel any different if the shoe was on the other foot?

The Welsh atm remind me of us a year or two ago. Except slightly less likely to bottle it at the end. ^^

Irish fans don't like losing, they got used to **** teams, but the chance of decent performances really has changed how we view rugby I reckon. Unlike some of our neighbours though, we have a smaller player pool, so when we see our talented players underperforming it seems an utter waste.

Btw, it's an illusion to say Wales had a crap WC and are now world-class. They were unlucky against Fiji, but that doesn't mean they deserved to win or to lose. They played a team that loves to attack as well, and on teh day Fiji were better. Doesn't mean Wales suck. The Scots got to a WC quarter-final, and they sure as hell aren't better than Ireland or Wales.

Wales have some good backs, and some potential, but is it really a long term thing? Shane Williams is one of my favourite rugby players, who couldn't like him? But he's 30 or so, isn't he? The pace will ebb away eventually, and unless Wales get a better tight 5 they'll still not quite be world-class.

As it stands though, I'd rather Wales be world-class than any other Northern Hemisphere team expect for France, because currently the rest are playing negative and limited rugby. The rugby equivalent of Sam Allardyce's Bolton...

grames_bond

toomevara wrote: »

Oh and while I'm on the subject, Wales are massively overrated (by their own good selves as usual) this year....any half decent team will mince them..as they'll find out against the french next weekend, the only half decent team in the competition....

thats the thing, wales arent that good a team, they had a worse world cup than we did (astonishingly thats possible) but still are on for the grand slam?! it boggles the mind, i think it says more about the lackluster performances of the 6N teams than it does about wales' skill!

vorbis

Christ, Ireland has a bad campaign and suddenly every team is ****e.

I really can't stand this "SH good NH bad" mentality. Wales have been playing decent rugby in this tournament. Against us, they should have won by more and it was mainly luck that kept us in the game.

Also people seem to be forgetting that Fiji were not a crap side in the WC. They were level against South Africa with 12 minutes to go and but for a last ditch tackle would have taken the lead. They did wilt in the last 10 minutes but that didn't make them crap.

Wales are playing decent rugby, France are playing decent rugby. Ireland and England show very very brief glimpses of decent rugby. Italy and Scotland play awful stuff. Overall its been an ok Six nations, certainly not boring.

Webbs

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Wales have some good backs, and some potential, but is it really a long term thing? Shane Williams is one of my favourite rugby players, who couldn't like him? But he's 30 or so, isn't he? The pace will ebb away eventually, and unless Wales get a better tight 5 they'll still not quite be world-class.

There is potential for this to be a long tern thing (well more than a flash in the pan at least) most of the welsh squad are under 30 so could be around for next 4yrs or so as a squad.
Of course replacing someone like Williams is nigh on impossible (though am more worried about replacing the other Williams M). There are players coming through that look promising such as Jaime Roberts at FB and Tom James on the wing to name a couple who are raw at the moment but look promising.

As for the front 5 they have not been outplayed over 80 minutes this 6N by anyone, they showed a control against Ireland and England (2nd half) especially that I haven't seen in a generation (mainly cause we been total rubbish in this department).
The like of AWJ and Ian Evans give hope for the future while the props will still have a good few years left in them, they gave the Irish front row a tough day on the weekend, holding their own at scrum time and beating them in the loose. R Jones (who was my MotM on sat) and Thomas look like being stalwarts of the back row for some time to come as well. Please god we can find a new decent openside though come Williams second retirement