Air Traffic Controllers "strike"

Oilrig

Good on you guys, about time you made an issue out of this. The IAA need to wake up.

kraggy

Glad you put strike in inverted commas.

Nothing of the sort. Simply refusing to do overtime and come in on days off.

Oilrig

kraggy wrote: »

Glad you put strike in inverted commas.

Glad you noticed.

Darwin

My understanding from news reports last night were that they are to discuss what form the industrial action is to take, no?

irishatco

kraggy wrote: »

Glad you put strike in inverted commas.

Nothing of the sort. Simply refusing to do overtime and come in on days off.

Refusing to do voluntary overtime, that is not included in an ATCO's T&Cs and is not rostered for (with an organised standby scheme like many other ANSPs and airlines).

God forbid that controllers would like to ensure they are adequately rested before they commence duty...:rolleyes:

Darwin wrote:

My understanding from news reports last night were that they are to discuss what form the industrial action is to take, no?

The current situation is that controllers are simply not making themselves available for overtime. The IAA maintains it does not rely on overtime and that only 2% of contracted hours are covered by overtime...if that is the case where is there problem with ATCOs not volunteering for extra duties?

They claim there is no staff shortage, yet their next cadet intake will be a class of 36 (50% more than on any other SCP intake) and they are seeking direct entry rated-ATCOs (though doing it on the cheap, not advertising just making it known they'd like an aul CV sent in...:rolleyes:) and they have sent out begging letters to recent retirees to offer employment as instructors in Ballycasey so they are not forced to release more controllers from operational duties. Understaffed? Who's understaffed?

You are right though Darwin, a ballot has been held and 99% of members have voted for industrial action, the form of which has yet to be decided. More discussions are to take place between IMPACT and the IAA on Tuesday week, no strike notice will be served until after that at the earliest.

I must add that the feeling among staff is particularly strong at the moment, helped (or not, depending on what side of fence you stand on) by the IAA releasing a number of inflamatory statements accusing staff of orchestrating this action which IMO is a slur on the small number of staff who are currently absent on sick leave...how dare they be ill?

They also accuse the staff of being in breach of the partnership agreements, this from a company who conducts it's HR in the Labour Court and had to be ordered by the Labour Court to process pay rises due under the partnership model after they cried poverty (with increasing profits year on year and sizeable holdings in the bank)

I do hope people realise this is not an issue of money, it is an issue of staffing and proper arrangements to cover staff shortages. The IAA continues to believe that a small number of staff can keep their roster going through an ad hoc overtime system, that is exceptionally poor management.

More reading available here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=310303

Safe flying.

Oilrig

I read in the paper of record that strike notice was served today.

Serious decision.

Good luck guys.

irishatco

Unlikely things will get that far but thanks for the support.

Couldn't make the union briefings today as was busy with personal stuff but am told both the Dept of Transport and ICTU intervened over the weekend to prevent a split between our parent union and our staff reps, all are singing from the same hymn sheet now.

The IAA's latest press release seems much more restrained, maybe its cos they realise they are in serious zhit right now.

Notice of industrial action given today prior to an LRC hearing next week, the IAA have been told they need to deliver at those talks or work stoppages will happen. If they continue to play silly buggers staff will respond in kind.

It should be noted that none of this would have happened if the IAA hadn't acted so hamfisted in dealing with the original dispute, and lambasted their own staff in the national press. When will the clowns in Hawkins Street learn? Pretty much anyone involved in aviation has seen their true colours at this stage, 4th lowest user charges in Europe, the LCC of the ATC world.

FlutterinBantam

So everybody in Hawkins St is a "clown" is that it?

And the good guys work out at Dublin Airport.???

There has to be more than that in it surely???

irishatco

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

So everybody in Hawkins St is a "clown" is that it?

On the HR side of things, pretty much.

They have squandered the goodwill of staff over the last few years (a staff body that has consistently delivered in terms of modernisation and procedures), they believe partnership means they get to say NO NO NO until the Labour Court intervenes then they have to back down.

Do you think that an ad hoc system of overtime is an adequate way of addressing short term absences? A refusal to consider recruitment until we are at breaking point? A refusal to face the consequences of recruiting a number of women of child bearing age then not planning for any absences due to pregnancy?

They have survived by doing everything on the cheap up until now, by relying on the goodwill of staff. Now that they have exhausted that they will need to deliver.

This is NOT an issue of money. The vast majority of ATCOs do not wish to work any an overtime, we already work in excess of 1600hrs a year, and would rather have adequate rest between duties so that we are fit for duty when we do attend. Would you work an extra 20% on top of your 900hrs?

ch252

I agree with you on the fact that the decisions HR make are crap. Some of the people that didn't get in to the atc class this year, take a military controller from England who didn't get in because he just missed out on the educational side of it, if anyone can control they know its him like. But also, I know a few controllers in Shannon and Shannon center, and well from knowing them they are very nice people and if you ask me, wouldn't take industrial action if it was not absolutely necessary to do so. They have arguably the most stressfull job in the world so the IAA need to seriously wake up, they are too set in their ways IMO.

Darragh

FlutterinBantam

irishatco wrote: »

On the HR side of things, pretty much.

They have squandered the goodwill of staff over the last few years (a staff body that has consistently delivered in terms of modernisation and procedures), they believe partnership means they get to say NO NO NO until the Labour Court intervenes then they have to back down.

Do you think that an ad hoc system of overtime is an adequate way of addressing short term absences? A refusal to consider recruitment until we are at breaking point? A refusal to face the consequences of recruiting a number of women of child bearing age then not planning for any absences due to pregnancy?

They have survived by doing everything on the cheap up until now, by relying on the goodwill of staff. Now that they have exhausted that they will need to deliver.

This is NOT an issue of money. The vast majority of ATCOs do not wish to work any an overtime, we already work in excess of 1600hrs a year, and would rather have adequate rest between duties so that we are fit for duty when we do attend. Would you work an extra 20% on top of your 900hrs?

very good response there.... I can see where you are coming from now, and if what you say is true,and I believe that by and large it is,all I can say is best of luck with your campaign.

PhoenixRising

@irishatco

You have the support from all of us on the other side of the mic. It's a safety issue. The Air Traffic Services in this country should not be reliant on overtime, as evidenced by the total collapse of the system when that overtime is withdrawn.

The monkeys you have for management sound very like the monkeys we have here.

Good luck, you have my full support and that of my colleagues.

ch252

PhoenixRising wrote: »

@irishatco

You have the support from all of us on the other side of the mic. It's a safety issue. The Air Traffic Services in this country should not be reliant on overtime, as evidenced by the total collapse of the system when that overtime is withdrawn.

The monkeys you have for management sound very like the monkeys we have here.

Good luck, you have my full support and that of my colleagues.

Same here, but the IAA aren't going to be overly worried about tower controllers goin on strike....its the controllers at Shannon center that make them money, ie. when Dublins went on strike, Shannon center can do Dublin center. If Shannon High level, or even low level go on strike.....then they are rightly f*****. The towers only disrupted about 20 flights(thats a guesstimate) but if the Controllers at Shannon center went on strike, the towers may as well not be there either because nothing will be going out of ANY airports in the country, well thats the conclusion I have come to frm what I have been told. Irishatco, if he/she is an atc which I have no doubt you are, would be able to tell us more on the procedures in place for things like this.

Darragh

Davidth88

People

A note from the passenger here , please do everything you can to get this sorted asap.

I didn't get home from Paris until nearly 1am on Weds because of this........

I am really surprised that ATC people don't have regulated hours like pilots/cabin crew as said by previous posters this is not an easy job, and it's not a job you can make mistakes at for sure.

Smokey Bear

I think its more of a safety issue when you can have people working up to 9 days in a row!!
Each dot on screen can have up to 300 paxs so 2 dots pass to close oooopps 600 pax gone!!
The regulator of the IAA that is ment to watch over it and make sure it operates safely is paid for by the IAA.Bit of a joke i think.
Good luck ,hope you get what you want.

Smokey Bear

FlutterinBantam

Easy on the dramatics there Smokey.... throttle back there.

It's nowhere near that scenario .:rolleyes:

Smokey Bear

FlutterinBantam,

So people are not working up to 9 days in a row ???Know for fact they have,why are they doing it not enough staff.The IAA would rather have this than close a sector down due staff shortages.No law to stop them as they are excempt from working time act.

Are controllers concerned about the situation ?Yes

So 2 A330 don't hold more than 600 pax ?? yes they do

So the IAA regulator is not paid for by the IAA?? it for sure is

Although systems in place to prevent such incident it does not always work, its all the little things that add up to make an accident.

Smokey

FlutterinBantam

Smokey Bear wrote: »

FlutterinBantam,

So people are not working up to 9 days in a row ???Know for fact they have,why are they doing it not enough staff.The IAA would rather have this than close a sector down due staff shortages.No law to stop them as they are excempt from working time act.

Are controllers concerned about the situation ?Yes

So 2 A330 don't hold more than 600 pax ?? yes they do

So the IAA regulator is not paid for by the IAA?? it for sure is

Although systems in place to prevent such incident it does not always work, its all the little things that add up to make an accident.

Smokey

yeah yeah yeah,Sure these things can happen.

please don't be alarmist and suggest that this issue could lead to imminent mid air collisions over Ireland,and present a worse case scenario.

I am on your side,but for fcuk sake ,lets not lose the run of ourselves here.

peasant

I'm supposed to fly from Sligo to Dub and then to Gatwick on the 27th, to catch flight for a once in a lifetime holiday from there the following morning.

The 27th is the second day of supposed all out industrial action :rolleyes:

Should I make alternative arrangments now (book a flight from Belfast / book a ferry ticket and drive to bloody Gatwick)?

The air traffic controllers have my full support for their actions ...but you couldn't have picked another date, could you?

Tenger

kraggy wrote: »

Nothing of the sort. Simply refusing to do overtime and come in on days off.

Under Irish law isn't this form of protest still considered Industrial Action.

I know a couple of years ago when EI cabin crew (and indeed pilots recently)
began 'working to rule' it was called variously 'strike' or 'industrial action'


Oh and I think they are in the right. The IAA has recruited so few in recent years while the workload of overhead and inbound traffic has increased dramatically. Apparently experienced controllers are being denied taking early retirement due to a lack of staff.

irishatco

darragh-k wrote: »

Same here, but the IAA aren't going to be overly worried about tower controllers goin on strike....its the controllers at Shannon center that make them money, ie. when Dublins went on strike, Shannon center can do Dublin center.

Not quite the case.

There are contingency plans to provide some continued level of service if either Shannon or Dublin center are unusable (say in the event of a fire), but they rely on controllers from one station travelling to the other to provide the service from there.

There are no Shannon controllers who hold Dublin ratings, therefore there are no controllers who can provide Dublin services from Shannon in the event of a work stoppage in Dublin.

darragh-k wrote: »

If Shannon High level, or even low level go on strike.....then they are rightly f*****. The towers only disrupted about 20 flights(thats a guesstimate) but if the Controllers at Shannon center went on strike, the towers may as well not be there either because nothing will be going out of ANY airports in the country, well thats the conclusion I have come to frm what I have been told. Irishatco, if he/she is an atc which I have no doubt you are, would be able to tell us more on the procedures in place for things like this.

Darragh

Again, not quite accurate. The majority of Dublin traffic enters and exits the CTA without working Shannon High Level, either from London, Manchester or Scottish centers.

The other state airports, plus the regionals, would be screwed.

Its true that Shannon has the earning power, but I'd balanced that by saying Dublin closing has greater potential to grab the headlines. Here's hoping it doesn't come to that.

Thanks for the words of support fellas.

ch252

Probably true, what I originally posted is what I heard off other people, not necessarily controllers! I always thought that Shannon could do eidw center if it was an emergency, there obviously wouldn't be much point in a case of industrial action because you cant do tower or ground with just a radar! I was wondering actually after I posted that what would happen in the event of a fire so thanks for clearing that up. I'll be following this closely because the IAA seriously need to wake up before this happens again.

Darragh

chuckles30

Can someone tell me what form the action will take after the 26th? Will it continue to be a couple of hours here and there? Or will the airports be closed completely? While I back the controllers, I'm due to fly out of Shannon that weekend for a family event and trying to decide if I need to book a ferry instead....

irishatco

darragh-k wrote: »

I always thought that Shannon could do eidw center if it was an emergency, there obviously wouldn't be much point in a case of industrial action because you cant do tower or ground with just a radar! I was wondering actually after I posted that what would happen in the event of a fire so thanks for clearing that up. I'll be following this closely because the IAA seriously need to wake up before this happens again.

Darragh

If there was a sudden evacuation of Dublin ACC then its possible for radar displays in Shannon to be reconfigured quickly to provide emergency radar cover, but that would only be to get any aircraft in Dublin's airspace safely on the ground at other airports. We could also call on our neighbours to the east to sort out any conflicts in delegated airspace or about to exit the CTA eastbound.

Logistically, it takes a couple of hours to set up a radar suite in either centre to operate a full service, phone lines and comms need to be tested, radar maps and radar settings also. As I said in my last post, nobdy in Shannon holds a Dublin radar rating, and so could not provide a Dublin area or approach service. Overflights might be abe to continue while working Shannon (as happens on Xmas day when Dublin ACC shuts and the airspace reverts to Shannon)

All a moot point, if there are stoppages they will most likely be country-wide rather than station-specific. And to answer the last posters question, no decision has been made yet regarding stoppages as to when and where, but I would imagine they would start with small 2 or 4 hours stoppages initially then escalate to full 24 hour stoppages if necessary. There should be news regarding the first action to be taken if there is no agreement reached on Tuesday in the LRC.

peasant

Any word on any further developments?

Oilrig

Unofficial...

Info seems to suggest no agreement reached.

All speculation at this stage.

kraggy

No progress.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mheysngbqley/

peasant

A full day of strike on the 28th

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0220/airtraffic.html

RoundyMooney

Phew!

I miss it by one day!

knightmare

Unfortunatly I didn't. Without taking sides, just what does this mean for the ordinary Joe soap who has paid for flights (& hotels) months in advance?
Would the flight go the next day or am I just gonna have to take it on the chin?

Tenger

knightmare wrote: »

Unfortunatly I didn't. Without taking sides, just what does this mean for the ordinary Joe soap who has paid for flights (& hotels) months in advance?
Would the flight go the next day or am I just gonna have to take it on the chin?

Contact your airline. Thye may be laying on extra flights the next day or may allow you to change your flights for a fee.
Read you insurance policy,it may allow you to be re-imbursed for the cost of changing flights.
Most probably the airlines will assume the flights will operate as normal that, thinking that the dispute will be resolved before the 28th. I would assume any flights outside of Ireland will have no insurance backup. So you may have to get a flight on the 27th if you are getting a connection from outside the country on the 28th.

cp251

It's brinkmanship and the usual Irish trade union negotiating stance. Aer Lingus do it all the time. Only occasionally do management call their bluff and let the strike go ahead. I've seen it all before after 14 years working in Irish aviation industry. I can't tell you how many times I was on strike notice. But I never actually went on strike. Other times I was on notice for layoffs. It never happens.

There will be a last minute delay, labour court intervention or Bertie. Gawd it's so predictable! It's a high stakes game.

All it does is wreck the heads of passengers who believe they are serious. No wonder so many new companies and multinationals avoid unions like the plague. Who has time and patience for these games?

ATC have a good case, but the system in the public service in this country always ensures we are subject to this kind of childish brinkmanship. Why can't people just sit down and negotiate seriously?

FlutterinBantam

I agree with everything you say there.

Mick O'Leary fought long and hard way back when to ensure no unions in Ryanair
(as we know them)
Now you know why !!!!

The unions know that the public sector is the only place that will tolerate this kind of stuff,and Dublin Airport is the pinch point to squeeze.

Over 500 people are being made redundant in Arnott's and not a peep out of anyone.

Time the travelling public woke up to these dudes.

Zzippy

cp251 wrote: »

It's brinkmanship and the usual Irish trade union negotiating stance.

All it does is wreck the heads of passengers who believe they are serious.

Too right! I'm supposed to be flying out that day on the first major holiday I've had in years, Argentina. Have 2 connecting flights dependent on getting out of Dublin that day.
Trying to find alternatives to get to Madrid and a one-way flight is working out nearly as expensive as the return trip to Buenos Aires.
Thanks a lot IMPACT! :mad:

Tenger

Zzippy wrote: »

Trying to find alternatives to get to Madrid and a one-way flight is working out nearly as expensive as the return trip to Buenos Aires.
Thanks a lot IMPACT! :mad:

Any luck with going out the previous evening? With airport hotel in Madrid?

Zzippy

Bramble wrote: »

Any luck with going out the previous evening? With airport hotel in Madrid?

That's my next option, but it means taking another day of holidays, and I'm already swamped with work trying to get everything sorted before going!

Girrrrseach

Im completely put out if Thursday is cancelled....

Rang Ryanair, they said that they have nothing to do with it, and wouldn't say whether they can refund / reschedule.

Do you guys really think this will go ahead? And if I booked a very early Friday morning flight, would that be at all delayed because of the back-log??

FlutterinBantam

My gut feeling is it won't come to a stoppage.

Only real difference is that on Friday all flts will be full.

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

My gut feeling is it won't come to a stoppage.

Only real difference is that on Friday all flts will be full.

Agree here. The thursday flights will be emptier than usual as a lot of pax may have rebooked to wed/friday.

A strike on thursday 'shouldn't' cause too much of a backlog. Its not like a bad delay which has knock on effects. The thursday flights just will not happen,the firday flights will go as normal. Perhaps 1-2 extra flights laid on. Thats it, the 3 main Irish airspace users (EI,FR,RE) would not have the spare aircraft to add extra flights ,unless Ryanair use aircraft from another base. But that would then mean cancelling flights from that base. Contrary to what Mo'L says, FR do not leave aircraft lying on the ramp 'to save money'

irishatco

cp251 wrote: »

ATC have a good case, but the system in the public service in this country always ensures we are subject to this kind of childish brinkmanship. Why can't people just sit down and negotiate seriously?

You're missing the point, ATCOs have attempted to negotiate seriously with the IAA for a number of years, the end result has usually been a visit to the Labour Court with the IAA emerging with their tails between their legs.

I regret the inconveniance caused to the travelling public, and I'd rather it was a shorter stoppage, but I am sick to the back teeth of IAA management's incompetence and being blamed for having the gall to want to have a life outside of work.

rugbyman

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I agree with everything you say there.

Mick O'Leary fought long and hard way back when to ensure no unions in Ryanair
(as we know them)
Now you know why !!!!

The unions know that the public sector is the only place that will tolerate this kind of stuff,and Dublin Airport is the pinch point to squeeze.

Over 500 people are being made redundant in Arnott's and not a peep out of anyone.

Time the travelling public woke up to these dudes.

could not agree more with flutterinbantam re unions. the atc want to do less overtime and want IAA to hire more atc so as to reduce the need for overtime. this would mean many more union members with public sector terms and conditions. i.e. perhaps millions of eoro to be paid over a lifetim with pension rights etc. So the atc ,rather than do less overtime as each of them has a right to do(or not do ,to be exact), they plan to go on strike and disrupt the onward travel /work plans of thousands of their customers. Its crazy. Oh, and in the meantime they want to be paid extra just to be available for overtime.

Ml O `Leary and Ryanair have broken the mould and liberated this industry. Aer Lingus , to their credit are following suit. But Aer Rianta and the ATC seem to think we are still in the eighties.

Last comment. to all the Aer Lingus, Aer Rianta, ATC and a host of other semi state employees ,Garda, civil servants ,An Post people etc. Stop moaning when you have a perceived grievance, LEAVE! Go out and sell your undoubted talents to the private sector. You know you are underpaid/maltreated, go out and get the reward you deserve.

microgirl

rugbyman wrote: »

Last comment. to all the Aer Lingus, Aer Rianta, ATC and a host of other semi state employees ,Garda, civil servants ,An Post people etc. Stop moaning when you have a perceived grievance, LEAVE! Go out and sell your undoubted talents to the private sector. You know you are underpaid/maltreated, go out and get the reward you deserve.

And go where, precisely? I could be wrong, but I can't really think of any private enterprise that requires air traffic controllers! Plus, the State will continue to need them, which means that even if everyone currently employed as an ATCO leaves for this fabled new job in private enterprise tomorrow, new ones will simply be employed under the same onerous conditions. Or not, since the IAA seem so hell-bent on not recruiting new staff And contrary to popular belief, not everyone who is fighting for better conditions is fighting purely for themselves.

And if everyone left en masse tomorrow (or ever gradually over the next few weeks) what on earth do you think the outcome would be, considering the problem is the chronic level of understaffing? MORE flights would be cancelled, the entire country would be shut down for a considerable period while the IAA tried to find new ATCOs - an incredibly highly-skilled job requiring significant training - and the ATCOs get serious grief and sh!te from the public anyway?

What on earth do you think a strike is? It is essentially a threat to walk out, to leave, letting management see what straits they'd be in if they don't try to reach an agreement, without hopefully having to actually bring the country to its knees.

No-one likes having to offer these kinds of ultimatums (ultimata?) but sometimes it's just necessary.

irishatco

rugbyman wrote: »

could not agree more with flutterinbantam re unions. the atc want to do less overtime and want IAA to hire more atc so as to reduce the need for overtime. this would mean many more union members with public sector terms and conditions. i.e. perhaps millions of eoro to be paid over a lifetim with pension rights etc. So the atc ,rather than do less overtime as each of them has a right to do(or not do ,to be exact), they plan to go on strike and disrupt the onward travel /work plans of thousands of their customers. Its crazy. Oh, and in the meantime they want to be paid extra just to be available for overtime.

Absolute bull.

The stated position of the union is that they would prefer the IAA did not rely on overtime to cover short term absences. A more effective method of ensuring services are not disrupted is to have staff rostered on standby duites to cover such absences.

The IAA provide no such cover. The roster works with X number of staff, not X+1 or X+2. They are unwilling to provide any level of cover other than to ring staff on their rest days and ask them to attend for overtime. They are also happy to allow an unlimted number of overtime duties be performed by individual staff (unlike pilots we have no legal limit on the amount of hours we can work, would you be happy to know an ATCO may have worked a 58 hour week?)

When staff refused to do so, we were accused of orchestrating the situation (and slandered by that Mullingar weasel who accused staff of engineering a blue flu).

As you pointed out, overtime is voluntary.

When we voluntarily declined the invitation to attend, delays happened.

This situation needs to be addressed NOW. The IAA claims it is recruiting direct entry controllers to address staffing concerns, they have yet to advertise the positions. That is not good enough.

Tenger

rugbyman wrote: »

could not agree more with flutterinbantam re unions. the atc want to do less overtime and want IAA to hire more atc so as to reduce the need for overtime. this would mean many more union members with public sector terms and conditions. ...................... So the atc ,rather than do less overtime as each of them has a right to do(or not do ,to be exact), they plan to go on strike and disrupt the onward travel /work plans of thousands of their customers.

I can see your argument here and partially agree in theory,however:
This dispute is over the fact the the current Irish ATC system relies on OT to provide a full service. Yes the IAA should not be forced to overstaff with the attendant costs involved. However they should not be allowed to run the system understaffed and put pressure on staff to do OT. OT is a bonus for working extra,it should be an option for staff rather than the norm. OT should be in place to cover sick leave and particular busy periods,it should not be in constant use. Having a backup ATC on call is just safe practise in an industry that tries to have back-up systems for everything(thats why there are 2 pilots)The recent delays have been due to ATCs not doing OT. They are simply exercising their choices.
Another gripe is that as the IAA has understaffed, the ATCs are restricted in their ability to take time off hence impacting on their quality of life.

During Summer 2003 Aer Lingus had many staffing problems due the lay-offs. They rostered the required number of pilots/cabin crew for all flights. But they did not take into account that aviation is unpredictable and when flights were delayed/diverted the schedule went to hell as the company had not had any standby/reserve staff rostered. The IAA appear to be doing the same thing.

rugbyman wrote: »

Last comment. to all the .............semi state employees ..............etc. LEAVE! Go out and sell your undoubted talents to the private sector. You know you are underpaid/maltreated, go out and get the reward you deserve.

Unfortunately in some sectors moving company is not an option. The trained ATCs in the IAA have to move country if they want to move jobs. There are no private sector ATC companies. And I am not sure how their skills would be integrated into a private company.

Moan ahead:
As an employee of one of the companies you mentioned I really love my job but am currently of the opinion that changing career would be probably be better for me in the long term. However as my company have been unwilling/unable to give me any consistency in my work pattern between 2000-2006 I have been unable to do any courses I wanted to do which would allow me to move to the private sector (with my dubious talents) So I am now stuck doing a course that will not help me(if it does) until 2011. This is a reality for many of these people,skills are not readily transferable and the employee may not have the option of upskilling themselves in their current position.

ch252

irishatco wrote: »

Absolute bull.

The stated position of the union is that they would prefer the IAA did not rely on overtime to cover short term absences. A more effective method of ensuring services are not disrupted is to have staff rostered on standby duites to cover such absences.

would you be happy to know an ATCO may have worked a 58 hour week?

This situation needs to be addressed NOW. The IAA claims it is recruiting direct entry controllers to address staffing concerns, they have yet to advertise the positions. That is not good enough.

Exactly, look, an ATCO is one of the most stressful jobs in the world, you need to be on the ball EVERYDAY, if you're not, thats when accidents happen, and I would much prefer industrial action to an accident.. So IMO ATCO's shouldn't have to do any overtime, I know it's near impossible so reasonably minimal overtime is what would be ideal. The IAA need to realise that taking shortcuts does NOT work, I know it is very annoying for passengers, easy for me to say that when I have no flights on but all the same, they work everyday of the year, be it from 12 noon til 7 or 12 midnight til 7 in the morning so one day or two is acceptable seen as it is in a bid to ensure it never happens again.

Darragh

FlutterinBantam

hey hey!! lets slow down a bit here.

In a 7/24 operation there is always a req. for o/t.

As in the airline business,standby resources cost money,therefore you plan right up to the edge.

therefore if one domino falls ,you need a replacement.

What ATC(I think) need is an agreed system of o/t availability,based on payment for stand by duty and an understanding that on fulfilling that criterium ,no further onus is on the individual to make him/her/self available thus providing some certaintity of working duties in any one week.

What seems to be the problem is this thing is all higgeldy piggeldy and no one is sure where they stand.

Is that a reasonable synopsis of the situation or is it not???

irishatco

Flutter,

Before my time in the job the IAA had a call-in scheme which ATCOs could opt into, providing 1-3 days per month (on top of contracted hours) for a fixed payment.

That was scrapped, and the current ad hoc system of calling staff on rest days was introduced, but because nobody was interested in attending for extra duties management ended up negotiating deals with individuals for days in lieu (sometimes up to 4 per duty :eek:).

Currently (until this dispute arose anyway) any staff attending for OT receive double time for the hours worked. There is NO formal scheme to opt in or out of, staff are simply contacted on their days off when a duty needs to be covered. On any given day we might have 20+ staff on rest days in DUB, and on a number of occassions supervisors have been unable to get any volunteers to attend, but the impact is less severe when there are other staff around to cover positions, or we can combine sectors to provide meal and fatigue breaks.

I agree that OT is a necessary evil, but the IAA rely on it to a far greater extent than necessary. One estimate of OT requirements in DUB is that 800 duties were covered last year. That's 2+ a day, with rostered standby duties that could be managed much better, though with OT being the cheapest form of labour it is natural for the IAA to prefer to cover those duties with call ins rather than extra staff.

If they do want the staff body to make themselves available for a call in scheme they will need to make it worth our while. With traffic levels and complexity increasing (particularly in SHA) a large number of ATCOs simply want to take their rest days without interruption. I will certainly think long and hard before making myself available for a call in scheme, regardless of the pay on offer.

What would you suggest the company does in the absence of an adequate take up of their call in scheme?

FlutterinBantam

I'm a bit confused here.

Where the situation is at:

Agree a system to cover shortfalls.

Where the system needs to be:

Staff the system adequately to cover operational requirements.

All agreed by both parties.


Not much more than that to it is there??

irishatco

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I'm a bit confused here.

Where the situation is at:

Agree a system to cover shortfalls.

Where the system needs to be:

Staff the system adequately to cover operational requirements.

All agreed by both parties.


Not much more than that to it is there??

Are you suggesting a voluntary overtime scheme, or a compulsory one?

If it is voluntary, what if there is not enough interest to cover shortfalls?

Ultimately the money on offer will be the deciding factor, human nature suggests that if the € signs flash before the eyes people are more likely to agree to the scheme.

I'd welcome a scheme that formalised staff on rostered call in duties, much easier to plan the non-work side of one's life and manage fatigue. Doesn't mean I'll be signing up though.

FlutterinBantam

Read my lips.

Agreed system

irishatco

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Read my lips.

Agreed system

I've read your lips fine up to now.

Agreed doesn't necessarily mean voluntary.

If Impact and the IAA emerge from the Labour Court next week with a proposal that ATCOs surrender one rest day each month for an agreed payment, and ATCOs then vote in favour of the agreement (say by a margin of 70/30), does that mean that staff who have no interest in doing extra duties will forced to do so?

The majority of staff want to get away from work, not spend more time in there!

If it is a voluntary, opt-in scheme, then my original question remains valid: what if not enough staff opt in to cover projected shortfalls in staffing?

Is it not the norm on your side of the mic for airlines to have staff on standby to cover some level of sick leave? I'm happy to stand corrected on that.