Royal Rumble success devalued?

Mr.Nice Guy

Anyone else think like me that the WWE have totally devalued the honour associated with winning the Royal Rumble?

In 2006 we had Mysterio win the Rumble (which wasn't the main event on the card) and go on to face the World Champion at WM22 - again not in the main event.

In 2007 I felt they helped restore the credibility somewhat with the whole "who will he face" scenario but ultimately the Undertaker wasn't in the main event of WM23 either.

Now here in 2008 the Royal Rumble winner is getting his shot at bloody No Way Out. No Way Out? Surely the best part about the Rumble was the winner getting their title opportunity on the "grandest stage of them all".

The Rumble/Mania link has been devalued in the past two years in my opinion but this year there won't even be one. Anyone else think this is a damn shame?

People can give all the explanations they want as to why this is happening but to me it's purely because Triple H has to be - AGAIN - in the main event of the show this year. :rolleyes:

Fozzy

It's not as prestigious as they used to make it, but they're entitled to use it in whatever way they want to to progress storylines. It doesn't bother me as much as how they've devalued some of their titles, not that that bothers me a whole lot either

Winning the Rumble and not headlining Wrestlemania doesn't bother me. Like the year that Rey won, him winning the Rumble made more sense than someone on the Raw side winning. But the Raw main event was clearly the bigger match. So it made perfect sense for the bigger match to go on last at the expense of the Rumble winner, who didn't actually achieve any real accomplishment, he was just booked in a way that would end with him getting a title shot

If HHH was so selfish, would he have not just went and won the Rumble himself? He's one of WWE's very top stars and he's on the downswing of his career, better to have him in the main event this year than in a few years time. Guys like Orton and Cena are 10 years younger than him and they'll have plenty of main events to themselves in the future. I don't like HHH a whole lot but I don't see the problem with him being in the main event of Wrestlemania this year

Bounty Hunter

I think the biggest drawing championship match should always headline WM, if the Royal Rumble winner is in it or not. The Brand-split and having two HW champs has changed the idea that the RR winner should automatically headline Mania. However I also believe that unless something prevents the possibility (Injury etc) that the Rumble winner should always be in one of the Championship matches. I think that this year will be like all others and that people will forget the notion that Cena has "Cashed in" his rumble victory at No Way Out when he is in Raw's title match at WM anyway which co-incidentally IMO will headline Mania (whether or not it should).

I still predict a disputed finish at NWO and both Cena and Ortan to go to WM to face the winner of the Elimination chamber (HHH) in a triple threat. it does fit perfectly, both Cena and Ortan claiming to have won the Gold as Cena can do his usual "The Champ is here" and go on about never having lost his title, while Ortan was the champ in recent times and hasnt lost the belt.

flahavaj

Considering how HHH has put rising stars (at least relative to his own status) over completely cleanly in his last 3 Mania Main Events hes worked I thought people would be delighted that he may (and he still only may) be appearing in this year's one. Of course the haters forget all this in their incessant bleating, despite the fact he hasn't worn gold for how many years now?(save for a couple of hours a few months ago).

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote: »

Considering how HHH has put rising stars (at least relative to his own status) over completely cleanly in his last 3 Mania Main Events hes worked I thought people would be delighted that he may (and he still only may) be appearing in this year's one. Of course the haters forget all this in their incessant bleating, despite the fact he hasn't worn gold for how many years now?(save for a couple of hours a few months ago).

People who think HHH is putting people over are deluded. It reminds me of a bit in Shawn Michaels' book where he talks about when he and Jannetty were taking tag team wrestling by storm and certain teams would keep themselves in a feud with them just to bask in the glory. That is exactly what Triple H does. The fact he stays down for the three count is irrelevant. It's the fact he's in the match at all.

Case in point - Wrestlemania 22. Edge had won the title and ratings had gone up while he held the strap. Did he get a long reign? Nope. Instead he gets a 1 month title reign so Triple H can face Cena in the main event. Edge instead must settle for a match with Mick Foley. Had it not been for a quad injury he would have taken HBK's place in the main event last year.

This year Jeff Hardy becomes 2006's version of Edge in that he's on a hot streak yet isn't going to be given a Wrestlemania title opportunity.

But the fanboys in their incessant bleating think of Triple H as some sort of benelovent saint choosing to overlook his ELEVEN WORLD TITLES and the fact he has been in World Title matches from WM18-WM22 (and would have been last year were it not for his injury).

Incidentally great job he's done making these new stars! Apparently not one of them is good enough to take his spot when he's fit and healthy!

It's time to give new blood a chance. As Alvarez remarked in his radio show - Cena is far and away their top guy while Orton is the top heel. Too bad neither are in the family though. :rolleyes:

Bazuki

It's not like Hunter can't deliver though. I mean regardless of his influence backstage, the guy can go in the ring. He puts on great matches and is almost always a safe bet. With 'Mania you don't wanna take risks, you'll just end up with Goldberg/Lesnar again.

Plus, it is a big deal that he puts people over at the 'Mania matches. For example, which looks better? Cena going over Randy Orton, the fellow young gun. Or John Cena going over the 11 time World Champion and world-class vetran HHH? By having him go over Hunter it makes Cena, or whoever, look much better in the eyes of the public, especially does who don't read the internet or know about his "backstage influence".

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

People who think HHH is putting people over are deluded. It reminds me of a bit in Shawn Michaels' book where he talks about when he and Jannetty were taking tag team wrestling by storm and certain teams would keep themselves in a feud with them just to bask in the glory. That is exactly what Triple H does. The fact he stays down for the three count is irrelevant. It's the fact he's in the match at all.

Case in point - Wrestlemania 22. Edge had won the title and ratings had gone up while he held the strap. Did he get a long reign? Nope. Instead he gets a 1 month title reign so Triple H can face Cena in the main event. Edge instead must settle for a match with Mick Foley. Had it not been for a quad injury he would have taken HBK's place in the main event last year.

This year Jeff Hardy becomes 2006's version of Edge in that he's on a hot streak yet isn't going to be given a Wrestlemania title opportunity.

But the fanboys in their incessant bleating think of Triple H as some sort of benelovent saint choosing to overlook his ELEVEN WORLD TITLES and the fact he has been in World Title matches from WM18-WM22 (and would have been last year were it not for his injury).

Incidentally great job he's done making these new stars! Apparently not one of them is good enough to take his spot when he's fit and healthy!

It's time to give new blood a chance. As Alvarez remarked in his radio show - Cena is far and away their top guy while Orton is the top heel. Too bad neither are in the family though. :rolleyes:

Cena beating HHH in the Main Event at Mania did more to cement his place as the top guy than anything else he had done previously. HHH is a massive star in the eyes of the fans, do you honestly think Edge/Cena would have been a more attractive main event to the average wrestling fan than HHH/Cena two years ago?! Indeed that Foley match that Edge that you seem to think was a consolation prize turned out to be the match of Edge's career, so don't shed too many tears on his part. ANY time HHH is pinned it seems like a big deal to your average Joe Schmoke WWE fan, it's wins like this that elevate guys like Cena and Batista into a similar echelon of superstar as HHH himself in the eyes of those fans.

Put it this way MNG, if HHH is pinned cleanly in the middle of the ring by Orton next month at Mania, giving him the biggest win of his career, would that appease you? Because surely they can't main event Mania with Cena/Orton, its main evented 3 or 4 PPV's already this year. Really HHH is the only top face Orton has left to feud with. I honestly don't think it's quite time for Hardy to enter the mix yet, he'd be better served with wining MITB this year and then having a storlyline next hear where he chases the title as a face. His mai event run this year was a test as to his viability with the fams as a Main Eventer, which he passed with flying colours. He'll hold the strap by 2009 no doubt about that.

If anything HHH and indeed Undertaker's and HBK's continued presence in the Main Event of PPV's says more about the lack of younger talent being brought on and the lack of any viable alternative than it does about their political pull. In short, they're still there out of necessity. But then again you'll blame Hunter for that problem too. Next ye'll be saying it was his idea to close OVW just in case they produce any talent that might take his spot.:rolleyes:

Fozzy

Two years ago with Edge and this year with Jeff, I could easily see the reason HHH being in the main event over those two simply being that he's a bigger star than them. And you put your biggest stars together for the biggest show. It can't be denied that most of the fans love HHH, and like it or not he is a bigger star than Jeff right now. In the end Vince has the final say, not HHH, but I'm pretty sure that Vince looks at HHH as the second biggest star on Raw

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It's time to give new blood a chance. As Alvarez remarked in his radio show - Cena is far and away their top guy while Orton is the top heel.

A lot of people at Figure Four disagreed with him about that too, when he asked "who cares about HHH in 2008?". I don't think anyone was in outright defence of HHH but they can admit that he's more over than just about everyone but Cena. One post which I found kind of appropriate was this:

"The people who can't stand Triple H are usually the people who sit on the internet all day talking about how much they can't stand Triple H. The average fan still loves him."

And I think that seems to be the truth. The people going to the shows every week love the guy and if he main events Wrestlemania there's not going to be a lot of people booing the guy

Personally I just hate when he's on top or when he's beating people needlessly or having bad matches. But he's not at the moment. He's going to be running the company some day, gotta learn to live with it!

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote: »

Cena beating HHH in the Main Event at Mania did more to cement his place as the top guy than anything else he had done previously. HHH is a massive star in the eyes of the fans, do you honestly think Edge/Cena would have been a more attractive main event to the average wrestling fan than HHH/Cena two years ago?!

Absolutely I do. If anything I think that match really hurt Cena. The funny thing is you might recall Triple H condemned Angle for supposedly being a bad heel on the grounds that Cena was getting unmercifully booed (despite Angle doing everything including dissing US troops to get boos). Then when that feud first began you may recall Triple H making a remark about Cena's main move being pumping up his reeboks which made HHH look 'cool' and Cena look a total chump. That feud made HHH look good at Cena's expense in my view and a match with Edge would have been better.

flahavaj wrote:

Indeed that Foley match that Edge that you seem to think was a consolation prize turned out to be the match of Edge's career, so don't shed too many tears on his part. ANY time HHH is pinned it seems like a big deal to your average Joe Schmoke WWE fan, it's wins like this that elevate guys like Cena and Batista into a similar echelon of superstar as HHH himself in the eyes of those fans.

I wouldn't call it the match of his career but it did show Edge deserved to be taken seriously which he wasn't by the top brass. You might recall soon after this big match Triple H making this comment to Edge on Raw - "Well done on beating Foley - I did that six years ago. Mick Foley is like a turd that you just can't get rid of no matter how many times you flush." It was a remark that amazingly made two people look like complete chumps whilst simultaenously making Triple H look 'cool'.

As for HHH being pinned coming across as a big deal - course it does because he rarely loses clean! You know that.

flahavaj wrote:

Put it this way MNG, if HHH is pinned cleanly in the middle of the ring by Orton next month at Mania, giving him the biggest win of his career, would that appease you? Because surely they can't main event Mania with Cena/Orton, its main evented 3 or 4 PPV's already this year.

I don't want him in the Mania main event full stop. Is that too much to ask? Does he have to have a quad injury to step aside from a title match like his friend Shawn Michaels has REPEATEDLY done? I do however think he should have given Orton a clean pin when the title was vacated as opposed to only doing it after he'd won his ELEVENTH title and been in his third match of the evening (following his burial of Umaga).

Also why can't they main event with Orton and Cena? There's a logic to the storyline. Does HHH/Cena make more sense? Theyve done that before and they've done HHH/Orton numerous times.

flahavaj wrote:

I honestly don't think it's quite time for Hardy to enter the mix yet, he'd be better served with wining MITB this year and then having a storlyline next hear where he chases the title as a face. His mai event run this year was a test as to his viability with the fams as a Main Eventer, which he passed with flying colours. He'll hold the strap by 2009 no doubt about that.

Why does Hardy need another year when he's hot property now? I thought the point was to establish new stars?

Flahavaj wrote:

If anything HHH and indeed Undertaker's and HBK's continued presence in the Main Event of PPV's says more about the lack of younger talent being brought on and the lack of any viable alternative than it does about their political pull. In short, they're still there out of necessity. But then again you'll blame Hunter for that problem too. Next ye'll be saying it was his idea to close OVW just in case they produce any talent that might take his spot.:rolleyes:

You really are talking bollocks. You acknowledge younger talent aren't being brought on yet are actively defending the guy who is ensuring he gets the top spot for himself on the biggest show of the year!

Yeah I do blame Hunter for that because unlike Taker and Michaels he's not willing to put over younger guys! Wake up, man.

Mr.Nice Guy

Fozzy wrote: »

A lot of people at Figure Four disagreed with him about that too, when he asked "who cares about HHH in 2008?". I don't think anyone was in outright defence of HHH but they can admit that he's more over than just about everyone but Cena. One post which I found kind of appropriate was this:

"The people who can't stand Triple H are usually the people who sit on the internet all day talking about how much they can't stand Triple H. The average fan still loves him."

And I think that seems to be the truth. The people going to the shows every week love the guy and if he main events Wrestlemania there's not going to be a lot of people booing the guy

Casual fans will lap up what the WWE gives them. Bobby Lashley was loved by the average fan.

At the end of the day it's not difficult to keep an established guy like Triple H on top. Why not build for the future though? Why is it every f*cking January we have the start of the Triple H title match at Mania build? It's as stale as Katie Vick's corpse.

Fozzy wrote:

Personally I just hate when he's on top or when he's beating people needlessly or having bad matches. But he's not at the moment. He's going to be running the company some day, gotta learn to live with it!

It wasn't long ago you and others were pissed at him for beating Regal! I actually didn't mind that much.

Why then are people so relaxed about him being on top at the most important time of the year? Am I the only one sick of this guy or what?

Fozzy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I don't want him in the Mania main event full stop. Is that too much to ask?

It is when you're as over as he is, and that's the bottom line as far as I see it

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It wasn't long ago you and others were pissed at him for beating Regal!

Like I said, I don't like him beating people needlessly. This was when he wasn't going to be in the Rumble match and I assumed they'd stick him in a match with Regal. The PPV match would have been pointless as HHH had already beaten Regal easily. As it turns out they probably were going for that match until they decided to bring Cena back, so the Regal match doesn't bother me now

Mr.Nice Guy

There was no way he was going to face Regal at the Rumble. The way they inserted him into the Rumble itself was pure baloney since they were doing a storyline where they were trying to deny him a spot in it.

The way I would have done it would have been as follows. Jeff wins at the Rumble. Cena wins the match itself. The next night there's a storyline where Cena ponders whether or not he wants to face Jeff or Edge at Wrestlemania. Orton comes out and says he has a rematch clause and wants his shot. He gets it either that night, the next week or at No Way Out and wins back his belt. You then have Orton vs Cena at Wrestlemania. This accomplishes the following...

- Retains the credibility of the Rumble winner getting a shot at Wrestlemania.
- Shakes up the title equation and gives Jeff a big boost.
- Gives the ratings a boost as I'm sure curious fans would tune in to see Jeff as champion.
- Allows for Orton and Cena to go ahead as planned and offers the option of inserting Jeff into a triple threat scenario.
- Most importantly gives YOUNG BLOOD A CHANCE.

Where is Triple H in this? Put him in the Flair scenario or have him help elevate a heel. Perhaps Kennedy.

Surely a situation like that makes more sense than what we have now...

- Having the Rumble winner get his shot at No Way Out
- Powering through a match that could do big business - Cena looking for revenge and his title from Orton
- Once again going back to the well and relying on a veteran such as Triple H.

I can't fathom how some fans can be of the view that Triple H is necessary in the title picture. He's not. And him being 'as over as he is' doesn't wash with me because Cena is above him in that sense.

Some fans seem to be stuck in the past. Hell let's bring back Hulk Hogan and have him win in the main event. When you're 'as over as he is', why not?!

Mr.Nice Guy

"I did notice...John Cena is the biggest superstar in this company by an enormous margin, far and away the biggest star, he's either passionately loved or passionately hated, and Randy Orton is by far the best heel in this company. And I just watched this and I thought...f*ck Hunter. This should be the Wrestlemania main event. The biggest superstar - the biggest babyface in the company, and the biggest heel. That's money right there. How are we going to build interest in Triple H vs John Cena or whatever? I don't want to see it. I want to see Orton and Cena at Wrestlemania."

~ Bryan Alvarez, F4Wonline

Amen to that.

Vince135792003

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Amen to that.

Are you gonna buy/watch the show if Triple H is in the main event?

Bubs101

Triple H has been fairly selfless since coming back bar the No Mercy incident and when you think about it there's no guarantee he'll win the Elimination Chamber. When he was in that number 1 contenders match with Jeff every prediction in the thread said things along the line of "I'd love to see Jeff win but it'll never happen" but he put him over there. In the Royal Rumble pool everyone was just saying "i hope Hunter comes out at Number (insert the number they drew) but once again he put someone else over.

I honestly think that Jeff will win the chamber match and it'll be a triple threat match with him, Cena and Orton (who will still be champ having screwed Cena). I don't think that there's anyone around now who Flair would like to have his last match with then Hunter and Hunter probably wants to be in Flairs last match. If he really has that much sway with Vince then surely it's a done deal. He's headlined Wrestlemania 3 or 4 times so surely being in Flair's last match would mean more

krudler

I'm actually amazed its taken what?8 months aside from one night at No Mercy for HHH to be back in the main event spot, i was full sure he'd win it a few weeks after coming back and we'd be back to SuperHunter squashing everyone ala 2003, I've never really rated him as much as some people tbh, hes a solid wrestler with a priceless connection to the upper echelons of the business,but to me hes always hovered under the megastar banner, guys like Austin, The Rock, Taker, HBK, hell even Cena are leagues ahead of him in drawing power

Vince135792003

Bubs101 wrote: »

I don't think that there's anyone around now who Flair would like to have his last match with then Hunter

Shawn Michaels says hello.

I will be astounded if Triple H isn't in the title match. History says that whenever he's not injured, he's in a title match. To be honest, he doesn't do a whole lot for me but if someone wants to say "Cena versus Triple H is the biggest match the WWE has" well, I'm not gonna argue with them. It doesn't particularly interest me but I can see why they'd go with it.


I see a triple threat match happening anyway. Screwy finish in the Cena/Orton match, Triple H winning the chamber setting it all up.

Minto

TBH, with all the swerves WWE is doing at the moment (Hardy over Hunter at Armageddon and Cena returning), I wouldn't be surprised if Cena loses at No Way Out and Hardy wins the Chamber.
Then we could have Orton and Hardy in the WWE title match. Since the feud ended so quickly with Cena coming back, they could finish it off nicely and give Hardy a month or two with the title and Jeff would his "Big Star 'Mania moment". You could then have Hunter beat Jeff for the gold at Judgment Day or One Night Stand. Their feud has been going since Survivor Series, so the foundations are already there.
Then you could have Cena and Triple H in a big match at 'Mania. Have Triple H screw Cena at No Way Out as revenge for beating him at the Rumble.

Back on topic, I don't think the Rumble match is being devalued. At 'Mania 22, Cena/Hunter was a bigger match. Mysterio only won the Rumble because Eddie died. I'd put money on it that HHH was meant to win the 06 Rumble and main event WM22. Last year, it was a toss up which title match would main event. I remember the day of 'Mania, they were still deciding which match would be the main event. On to this year, it makes sense that Cena would want his title back as soon as possible, thats the story they are going for. Its just part of the story. I suppose it devalued the Rumble when Vince lost his title shot to Stone Cold in '99? Hell no it didn't, cos it was part of the story.

In short, the Rumble match is not being devalued, it is being used for its purpose, which is to create storylines.

gimmick

John Cena Vs Randy Orton

John Cena Vs HHH

Which has the bigger marquee value? Any who says its the former is an idiot. At this point in time, for what WWE hope to be their biggest ever show, you go with the tried and tested draw. Thats the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned. But then, I'm sure those "fanboys" with petty vendetta will disagree.

Fozzy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

There was no way he was going to face Regal at the Rumble. The way they inserted him into the Rumble itself was pure baloney since they were doing a storyline where they were trying to deny him a spot in it.

Looking back on it, I wouldn't be surprised if Cena had confirmed he'd be at the Rumble just before that, and they figured that they had to get HHH in quickly. It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me if the way they booked HHH was the way they had planned from the start

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

This accomplishes the following...

- Shakes up the title equation and gives Jeff a big boost.

I don't think there's a worse time to shake up the title equation than at the biggest show of the year. Bad business in my book. Same thing with giving young blood a chance

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Surely a situation like that makes more sense than what we have now...

- Powering through a match that could do big business - Cena looking for revenge and his title from Orton

We haven't seen what will happen yet with that match, but I've a feeling that they'll book it in a way that fans will still want to see that match in the summer. Makes sense to me for now

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

There was no way he was going to face Regal at the Rumble. The way they inserted him into the Rumble itself was pure baloney since they were doing a storyline where they were trying to deny him a spot in it.

Looking back on it, I wouldn't be surprised if Cena had confirmed he'd be at the Rumble just before that, and they figured that they had to get HHH in quickly. It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me if the way they booked HHH was the way they had planned from the start

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

This accomplishes the following...

- Shakes up the title equation and gives Jeff a big boost.

I don't think there's a worse time to shake up the title equation than at the biggest show of the year. Bad business in my book. Same thing with giving young blood a chance

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

- Once again going back to the well and relying on a veteran such as Triple H.

Do you have a problem with relying on veterans, or just on HHH?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I can't fathom how some fans can be of the view that Triple H is necessary in the title picture. He's not. And him being 'as over as he is' doesn't wash with me because Cena is above him in that sense.

If there were suggestions of Cena not being in the main event then I'd be very confused. HHH isn't necessary. I'd rather see Jeff or Cena vs Orton. But I understand completely why WWE would want to have HHH in there rather than Jeff or Orton. He's a bigger, proven star. This isn't me saying how much I want to see HHH in the main event. This is just me saying that I understand it and can't fault the logic of it. HHH in the main event will do bigger business than Jeff or Orton

rossie1977

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Absolutely I do. If anything I think that match really hurt Cena. The funny thing is you might recall Triple H condemned Angle for supposedly being a bad heel on the grounds that Cena was getting unmercifully booed (despite Angle doing everything including dissing US troops to get boos). Then when that feud first began you may recall Triple H making a remark about Cena's main move being pumping up his reeboks which made HHH look 'cool' and Cena look a total chump. That feud made HHH look good at Cena's expense in my view

and this lads and lasses is the correct answer, throughout that feud Cena was made to look like a complete idiot by triple h and what is worse is that cena was forced to admit he was inferior to triple h on numerous occasions. Cena was already a megastar by WM20, two full years before his match with Trips in Chicago.

my personal favourite triple h moment is the time he took at dig at hulk hogan during the 2004 hall of fame, yes the hulk hogan, the biggest star the business has ever produced. Man this guy really thinks he is "the game" for real :rolleyes: The shout out from one of the guys directly behind me was worth the admission money alone.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Some fans seem to be stuck in the past. Hell let's bring back Hulk Hogan and have him win in the main event. When you're 'as over as he is', why not?!

so true hogan v cena would have 10 times the drawing power of HHH vs cena so why don't we go with that???

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yeah I do blame Hunter for that because unlike Taker and Michaels he's not willing to put over younger guys! Wake up, man.

Exactly what younger guys have Taker and HBK put over!? Clean pins over Taker at ANY stage of his career are like hen's teeth and as for HBK he's every bit as bad as you claim HHH to be, he's always been obsessed with "getting his heat back! And that's not "talking bollocks," its a fact. If anything HHH has put more people over cleanly in marquee matches than those two combined in the last 5 years!

flahavaj

rossie1977 wrote: »

and this lads and lasses is the correct answer, throughout that feud Cena was made to look like a complete idiot by triple h and what is worse is that cena was forced to admit he was inferior to triple h on numerous occasions. Cena was already a megastar by WM20, two full years before his match with Trips in Chicago.

my personal favourite triple h moment is the time he took at dig at hulk hogan during the 2004 hall of fame, yes the hulk hogan, the biggest star the business has ever produced. Man this guy really thinks he is "the game" for real :rolleyes: The shout out from one of the guys directly behind me was worth the admission money alone.



so true hogan v cena would have 10 times the drawing power of HHH vs cena so why don't we go with that???

Christ when someone starts having sympathy for Hogan, the ****ing MASTER of keeping himself on top and backstage politics and in the same breath has the cheek to condemn HHH you lose ALL credibility.

Mr.Nice Guy

Vince135792003 wrote:

Are you gonna buy/watch the show if Triple H is in the main event?

Nope. In fact I was so pissed at the predictable nature of the way things followed the Rumble that I felt like giving up on Raw altogether. If Triple H wins the Chamber match at No Way Out it will prove too much for me and I'll stop watching WWE and thus Wrestlemania because the politics will be too much for me to stomach.

gimmick wrote:

John Cena Vs Randy Orton

John Cena Vs HHH

Which has the bigger marquee value? Any who says its the former is an idiot. At this point in time, for what WWE hope to be their biggest ever show, you go with the tried and tested draw. Thats the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned. But then, I'm sure those "fanboys" with petty vendetta will disagree.

Wrong. Anyone who says the latter is the idiot. Cena vs Orton is a story already there to be played out. Cena vs HHH requires build and has already been done before anyway. Todd Martin articulated this very well when writing for the WO.

WWE’s booking going into Mania is just awful. They have the most natural story ever for a big match. John Cena had the longest WWE Title reign in 20 years, but was forced to relinquish the title without having lost it in the ring. With Cena gone, Randy Orton won the title and defeated every major challenger. Now Cena is returning early from a major injury to regain his title from the champion who has dominated in his absence. This is on paper just about the most natural money program you’re possibly going to get. Yet, WWE isn’t even telling the story. Hell, they aren’t even teasing the story. Orton vs. Cena feels like just another program. There’s no excuse whatsoever for that. They’re flushing easy money down the toilet.

Additionally, HHH wasn’t on Raw this week and won’t be on Raw next week for personal issues, which takes away further from the WrestleMania build. He’s presumably the guy that will be added to the WrestleMania main event, and they are barely going to be able to tease that until it actually happens. Pro wrestling is about build. You make fans want to see something, and then get them to pay to see it. But WWE is seemingly so consumed with keeping things unpredictable that they aren’t building anything. Have you forgotten what business you are in?

Again - Amen to that.

Fozzy wrote: »

Looking back on it, I wouldn't be surprised if Cena had confirmed he'd be at the Rumble just before that, and they figured that they had to get HHH in quickly. It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me if the way they booked HHH was the way they had planned from the start

But why did HHH have to be in the Rumble at all? That's what didn't make sense to me. (Well it did because I know how he gets at this time of year)

Fozzy wrote:

I don't think there's a worse time to shake up the title equation than at the biggest show of the year. Bad business in my book. Same thing with giving young blood a chance.

I thought you wanted Jeff to get the win? I don't think there's a better time to shake up the title equation than the run-up to Wrestlemania as it makes things exciting for the viewers.

Fozzy wrote:

We haven't seen what will happen yet with that match, but I've a feeling that they'll book it in a way that fans will still want to see that match in the summer. Makes sense to me for now.

This is a story that can do big bucks. I see no logic in making fans wait until summer when Wrestlemania is the time you put out the best match possible rather than throw out some storyline to give a veteran an ego boost.

Fozzy wrote:

Do you have a problem with relying on veterans, or just on HHH?

I have a problem relying on veterans when the young guys have shown they can take over. To me it's bad for business just like when Hogan came in at Wrestlemania IX and won the belt while a young guy like Bret Hart was pushed aside for his ego stroke.

Fozzy wrote:

If there were suggestions of Cena not being in the main event then I'd be very confused. HHH isn't necessary. I'd rather see Jeff or Cena vs Orton. But I understand completely why WWE would want to have HHH in there rather than Jeff or Orton. He's a bigger, proven star. This isn't me saying how much I want to see HHH in the main event. This is just me saying that I understand it and can't fault the logic of it. HHH in the main event will do bigger business than Jeff or Orton

Cena vs Hogan would do bigger business than Cena vs HHH so why not advocate that match? Or maybe Cena vs Undertaker? Surely logic says that if you've got a big money match ready and waiting then you run with it. We know Cena's a draw and Orton's the top heel so who says it won't do as much money as an event with SuperHunter in it? Wrestlemania 23 seemed to cope fine without his mug on the show.

flahavaj wrote:

Exactly what younger guys have Taker and HBK put over!? Clean pins over Taker at ANY stage of his career are like hen's teeth and as for HBK he's every bit as bad as you claim HHH to be, he's always been obsessed with "getting his heat back! And that's not "talking bollocks," its a fact. If anything HHH has put more people over cleanly in marquee matches than those two combined in the last 5 years!

As The Rock would say, are you on crack, flahavaj? Are you on crack?! Taker has been putting over talentless gimps clean for ages. Heydenreich ring a bell? How about Khali? What about Batista in recent times?

As for Michaels, he put over Kennedy clean on Raw just weeks ago!

If you think HHH puts over people more than those two then I really do despair. The guy has been doing a burial job of the Raw roster since he returned. Booker T, Paul London, Brian Kendrick, Cade & Murdoch, Umaga, William Regal. Who has he put over? Orton - after earlier beating him AND Umaga!

Let's cut the crap and acknowledge the facts.

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

As The Rock would say, are you on crack, flahavaj? Are you on crack?! Taker has been putting over talentless gimps clean for ages. Heydenreich ring a bell? How about Khali? What about Batista in recent times?

Er, no Taker has been feuding with and defeating talentless gimps on PPV for years. The guy rarely if ever jobs clean. I can't be arsed looking up past results but as far as the Heidenreich feud goes I remember Taker beating him over and over. Same applies to Khali.

As for Batista, yes he did the job but so too did HHH. On three PPV's in sucession, completely cleanly too. I severely doubt Takers' EVER done that.

I'm not saying those guys have any right to be beating Taker on a regular basis, merely pointing out that HHH ain't the only one who rarely jobs...thats like why they're at the top of the card......:rolleyes:

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

As for Michaels, he put over Kennedy clean on Raw just weeks ago!

Yes he did. That's once on TV that he's jobbed and you can bet your life that ole HBK will get his win back when it really matters at some stage on PPV!

When was the last time Michaels was pinned cleanly in the middle of the ring on PPV? Hogan!? And even then he got his heat back the following night on RAW!

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If you think HHH puts over people more than those two then I really do despair. The guy has been doing a burial job of the Raw roster since he returned. Booker T, Paul London, Brian Kendrick, Cade & Murdoch, Umaga, William Regal. Who has he put over? Orton - after earlier beating him AND Umaga!

Let's cut the crap and acknowledge the facts.

Yeah because those guys really deserve to be put over HHH. London, Kendrick, Cade&Murdoch and Regal are mid carders, HHH as a top guy should be putting these guys away easily. Umaga was made to look extremely strong in the HHH feud, but again HHH beating him is pretty logical in a kayfabe sense. As for Booker T in my honest opinion the right guy won when they faced off at Mania. Booker isn't world champion material in any way shape or form, hes an upper midcarder at best. Next you'll be saying R ****ing V D should have beaten HHH on RAW a few years back for the title....:rolleyes:

We could argue this all night but at the end of the day HHH deserves all the credit in the world for putting the right guys over (Cena,Batista, Benoit) at the right time, in the Main Event of Wrestlemania. He even put Jeff Hardy over at Armageddon but you just choose to ignore that!

Beating mid carders on RAW and putting over new maineventers on the biggest show of the year.......Christ what a bollox.....:rolleyes:

At this stage MNG you're so blinkered against HHH that no matter what he did you'd bitch and moan or find something to beat him with. And the more you bleat, the louder I laugh as he continues to rack up the World Titles he so richly deserves!:D

I can't WAIT to read your whining when he wins the Elimination Chamber! Christ the internet's gonna explode! Tell ya what, if you're so disillusioned with your beloved WWE, I can hook you up with some ROH to watch, that'll really help your mood! There's no backstage politics, no glass ceiling, no sledgehammer weilding power crazed lunatics burying the midcard! There's this Danielson guy you'll love, he has no bother putting people over either!:D;)

Fozzy

I'm not going to get into an in-depth argument about HHH as I'm not a massive fan of his, my original argument is simply that I don't believe you can say that he doesn't deserve to main event Wrestlemania

flahavaj wrote: »

Yes he did. That's once on TV that he's jobbed and you can bet your life that ole HBK will get his win back when it really matters at some stage on PPV!

He got his win back a few weeks later on Raw. And the Raw that he lost on was one of the lowest watched episodes of the year, as it was on New Year's Eve. Cunning man

I don't see any problem with HHH beating Booker last year. Looking back, WWE must have known that Booker might have been on his way out so it would have made no sense for them to have him beat HHH, especially in HHH's comeback match!

rossie1977

flahavaj wrote: »

Yes he did. That's once on TV that he's jobbed and you can bet your life that ole HBK will get his win back when it really matters at some stage on PPV!

When was the last time Michaels was pinned cleanly in the middle of the ring on PPV? Hogan!? And even then he got his heat back the following night on RAW!

actually this years Survivor Series to orton

rossie1977

Fozzy wrote: »

I don't see any problem with HHH beating Booker last year. Looking back, WWE must have known that Booker might have been on his way out so it would have made no sense for them to have him beat HHH, especially in HHH's comeback match!

neither do i, everybody knew HHH was going to beat booker and squash him, it was a given. What pisses me off is that is introduced himself into a match and a feud to which he had no right i.e. jerry lawler/king booker. Lawler was far more pissed off about it than anyone as it was his idea in the first place

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote: »

Er, no Taker has been feuding with and defeating talentless gimps on PPV for years. The guy rarely if ever jobs clean. I can't be arsed looking up past results but as far as the Heidenreich feud goes I remember Taker beating him over and over. Same applies to Khali.

Taker did put over both Heydenreich and Khali. Can't be arsed checking back old results myself but there was one very notable early clean win for Khali over Taker. Can you see Triple H putting either of these guys over? I recall an episode of Raw where Khali destroyed Michaels and put him through a table. Again, can you see Triple H doing this? Course not.

As for Batista, yeah Triple H did put Dave over on three occasions which is indeed a rarity. Then again he is good friends with the guy and had been dominant throughout 2003/04 on Raw.

flahavaj wrote:

I'm not saying those guys have any right to be beating Taker on a regular basis, merely pointing out that HHH ain't the only one who rarely jobs...thats like why they're at the top of the card......:rolleyes:

Taker put Dave over clean. Michaels put Kennedy over clean. Triple H only put Orton over clean after earlier beating Orton as well as one of the most dominant heels on the brand, Umaga!

flahavaj wrote:

Yes he did. That's once on TV that he's jobbed and you can bet your life that ole HBK will get his win back when it really matters at some stage on PPV!

When was the last time Michaels was pinned cleanly in the middle of the ring on PPV? Hogan!? And even then he got his heat back the following night on RAW!

Er, he put Orton over clean again only weeks back! No earlier matches for HBK or anything! Seriously remove the blinkers!

flahavaj wrote:

Yeah because those guys really deserve to be put over HHH. London, Kendrick, Cade&Murdoch and Regal are mid carders, HHH as a top guy should be putting these guys away easily. Umaga was made to look extremely strong in the HHH feud, but again HHH beating him is pretty logical in a kayfabe sense. As for Booker T in my honest opinion the right guy won when they faced off at Mania. Booker isn't world champion material in any way shape or form, hes an upper midcarder at best. Next you'll be saying R ****ing V D should have beaten HHH on RAW a few years back for the title....:rolleyes:

Janey Mac I think you ARE on crack. A top guy should be putting away mid carders easily? I suppose then you'll be saying Ultimate Warrior was right to make Hunter look a total sap years back then, hmm? Nah doubt that!

flahavaj wrote:

We could argue this all night but at the end of the day HHH deserves all the credit in the world for putting the right guys over (Cena,Batista, Benoit) at the right time, in the Main Event of Wrestlemania. He even put Jeff Hardy over at Armageddon but you just choose to ignore that!

I didn't ignore the win over Jeff. I recall I gave him credit for that. It counts for sh*t now though. Triple H doesn't deserve credit for putting guys over at Wrestlemania because he shouldn't be in so many Wrestlemanias in the first place. The notion that Triple H was the only strong heel in the WWE worthy of the spot was a bullsh*t notion that was made clear when Edge rose to be the top heel star in 2006. The same Edge who was denied his Mania spot at WM22 by Triple H's ego.

Hunter deserves creidt if he is willing to put his ego to one side and allow others to headline the biggest show of the year. Can he do it though?

flahavaj wrote:

Beating mid carders on RAW and putting over new maineventers on the biggest show of the year.......Christ what a bollox.....:rolleyes:

Put the crack pipe down, son. He has buried mid carders and cemented the top spot for himself. Open your eyes and realise that.

flahavaj wrote:

At this stage MNG you're so blinkered against HHH that no matter what he did you'd bitch and moan or find something to beat him with. And the more you bleat, the louder I laugh as he continues to rack up the World Titles he so richly deserves!:D

I'm the one that's blinkered? I was the one who actually defended his actions in late 07 when people were unhappy at him making Regal look like a goof. It's hardly just me that's angered by his politicking ways but you continue to 'laugh' while wrestling goes down the sh*tter. Hope you enjoy the twenty minute openings to Raw that you're likely to get in the near future with SuperHunter on top again. I shan't be watching that bollocks again though.

flahavaj wrote:

I can't WAIT to read your whining when he wins the Elimination Chamber! Christ the internet's gonna explode! Tell ya what, if you're so disillusioned with your beloved WWE, I can hook you up with some ROH to watch, that'll really help your mood! There's no backstage politics, no glass ceiling, no sledgehammer weilding power crazed lunatics burying the midcard! There's this Danielson guy you'll love, he has no bother putting people over either!:D;)

Dear oh dear. Must have touched a nerve! Get some better crack, matey! Especially if you think I'd watch the smark favourite Danielson (cough ).

You won't hear whining from me if HHH wins the Chamber. The internet will be grand I assure you. If he wins the match, as looks to be the plan prior to the recent Raw, I'm done with the whole farce that is WWE.

Fozzy

rossie1977 wrote: »

neither do i, everybody knew HHH was going to beat booker and squash him, it was a given. What pisses me off is that is introduced himself into a match and a feud to which he had no right i.e. jerry lawler/king booker. Lawler was far more pissed off about it than anyone as it was his idea in the first place

Was Booker vs Jerry not just there to give Booker something to do in the buildup to HHH's return? There'd already been rumours of HHH facing Booker when Jerry got involved, and it was obvious it had something to do with the King gimmick. I would be shocked if the original plan was just for Booker to feud with Lawler

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote:

Yeah because those guys really deserve to be put over HHH. London, Kendrick, Cade&Murdoch and Regal are mid carders, HHH as a top guy should be putting these guys away easily.

I actually went and looked back at the 'It's all about the Game' thread where I wrote a thread slamming Triple H for his burial of Kendrick & London as well as Cade & Murdoch and at the time flahavaj, THIS is what you said:

Im in total agreement with the initial poster here, surely a six man the following week would've been a nice little rub for London/Kendrick.

However I AM curious as to exactly how much say HHH has in his week to week actions on raw. I mean did he really simply take it upon himself to bury them? i was always of the opinion that no mater who you're married to, Vince still has the ultimate say in EVERYTHING. And in fairness to HHH he has put people over fairly well in the last two years, in particular cleanly jobbing the main events of the past two Manias.

So while the burying of Londrick was reprehensible and totally unnecesary, i would be hesitant to slate HHH whne none of us know exactly who made the call.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54041131&postcount=10

Oh how fickle wrestling fans can be, eh?

rossie1977

Fozzy wrote: »

Was Booker vs Jerry not just there to give Booker something to do in the buildup to HHH's return? There'd already been rumours of HHH facing Booker when Jerry got involved, and it was obvious it had something to do with the King gimmick. I would be shocked if the original plan was just for Booker to feud with Lawler

yeah lawler proposed a king vs king angle back in december 2006-january 2007, lawler should be on tv more imo, an opening match at summerslam is the least lawler deserves after all the years of his life he has given wrestling and the WWE.

not sure how triple h fitted into that angle or why he would go after booker (it wasn't booker that took him out), the king of kings vs the king thing is lame and makes little sense. I had no problem seeing HHH win at summerslam but the way he took lawlers spot left a sour taste

Vince135792003

rossie1977 wrote: »

yeah lawler proposed a king vs king angle back in december 2006-january 2007,

Source?

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I actually went and looked back at the 'It's all about the Game' thread where I wrote a thread slamming Triple H for his burial of Kendrick & London as well as Cade & Murdoch and at the time flahavaj, THIS is what you said:



Oh how fickle wrestling fans can be, eh?

Indeed. Especially when they'll turn off wrestling forever because a wrestler they don't like wins a match!;)

It's Vince not Hunter who's booking this stuff, as i indeed said before!

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Dear oh dear. Must have touched a nerve! Get some better crack, matey! Especially if you think I'd watch the smark favourite Danielson (cough ).

Hardly dude! Looks like you're running outa things to watch though!

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote: »

Indeed. Especially when they'll turn off wrestling forever because a wrestler they don't like wins a match!;)

It's Vince not Hunter who's booking this stuff, as i indeed said before!

Well it's Steph too. Who's she married to, again? Not saying I'll turn off wrestling forever necessarily but come on, surely you agree that the Wrestlemania build is bloody woeful this year? If things pan out as I expect them too then it just won't be exciting TV.

flahavaj wrote:

Hardly dude! Looks like you're running outa things to watch though!

Well there's always TNA...nah.

rossie1977

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Source?

not sure where i read it, it could have been a magazine or a website but i will find it, hopefully, its like doing my masters thesis over again

here booker talks about the match, its not the article i want though :mad: http://prowrestlingblog.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/book-t-talks-about-his-suspension-hhh-and-leaving-the-wwe/

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well it's Steph too. Who's she married to, again? Not saying I'll turn off wrestling forever necessarily but come on, surely you agree that the Wrestlemania build is bloody woeful this year? If things pan out as I expect them too then it just won't be exciting TV.



Well there's always TNA...nah.

Agreed that the build is very poor this year and I'm more than under whelmed thus far. Then again I don't just rely on WWE for my fix. What with ROH and Japan past and present I've plenty wrestling that won't insult my intelligence to be cracking on with!

As for TNA, thats a never ending argument for another day. If they banned TNA and HHH debate I think this forum would die.....

Jmac24128

Triple H vs cena/ortan is way way way better then cena vs ortan! i love seeing triple H in the main event at wrestle maina.... it way more appealing to ever wwe fan. loads of my friends watch wwe fan and all agree that triple H in the main event is way more appealing then anyone else ever!! 11 time world heavy champion... he is the best in the business! FULL STOP

Machismo Fan

flahavaj wrote: »

Yeah because those guys really deserve to be put over HHH. London, Kendrick, Cade&Murdoch and Regal are mid carders, HHH as a top guy should be putting these guys away easily.

If HHH buries these talented guys what chance do they have of making it to the top themselves. For Triple H to beat an established star, great worker and good wrestler like Booker T in 7:56 is a disgrace, no wonder Booker wanted out.

I think Carlito was slowly getting over in his feud with HHH until he destroyed Carlito needlessly after that Cage match.

Hardy may have won the match but seriously HHH dominated and Hardy only began to get extremely over as a World Title contender due to his tremendous work in his feud with Orton.

HHH is afraid that people are going to take his spot even though he is a great wrestler and has the talent to be in that spot anyway but he insists on breaking out the shovel for anyone that might threaten his place.

krudler

Jmac24128 wrote: »

Triple H vs cena/ortan is way way way better then cena vs ortan! i love seeing triple H in the main event at wrestle maina.... it way more appealing to ever wwe fan. loads of my friends watch wwe fan and all agree that triple H in the main event is way more appealing then anyone else ever!! 11 time world heavy champion... he is the best in the business! FULL STOP

i wish my wife could get me 11 title reigns.....

Bazuki

krudler wrote: »

i wish my wife could get me 11 title reigns.....

Oh yeah, because he got those 11 titles after he married Steph. And it has nothing to do with the fact that he is a good wrestler. Oh and he gets butts on seats.

gimmick

Fact is that politicking is an integral part of the wrestling business. Those who have positions of power book themselves into the title picture. Jarrett did it in TNA, Misawa in NOAH, Hogan in 80s & 90s with both WWF and WCW.

HHH is doing it today, no one will deny that. But its not like he is some talentless hack who is no draw. For me, the situation is just exacerbated by how 'smart' fans have become now and how the business has gone from keeping its secret sacred to having reality type shows. We know more now than what the fans of the 80s and early 90s knew, and at the end of it all thats why people are so enraged with HHH now.

As they say, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Fozzy

Misawa as champ in NOAH is a different situation I think. If he didn't have to be champ last year then I don't think he would have held the belt, but the fact is that he was the heavyweight who the people would pay to see. Morishima was busy in America all year and he was the only other possible champion

While I'm on Misawa though, I was thinking about this earlier. I think only about 12 people have pinned him in the last 15+ years. He's had booking power for about half of that too. But people don't complain about him abusing his power. There's nothing wrong with having someone who is incredibly difficult to beat and who is ahead of everyone else. Look at the situation in TNA where anyone can beat anyone and no one looks like a star because of it. HHH's gimmick has always been that he's a big guy who can destroy people. And the fans love him. According to WWE's website two HHH items and a DX item are outselling any Cena items

There's also the fact that practically everyone who isn't a fan of Cena's is a fan of HHH's. Stick them in the same match and you've got all your bases covered. With Cena vs Orton they'd be leaving out a large part of their audience who aren't fans of either guy. Plus it's been done recently

Cactus Col

Personally I don't see any reason why Triple H shouldn't be in the title picture. He is still on top of the game, one of the most popular wrestlers in the promotion, is reliable from a the company's point of view.

In recent years WWE have lost several top performers (Angle, Big Show, RVD) and potentialy top performers (Lashely) ... and some others with potential have just stalled (carlito, kennedy). So I think it's only reasonable for WWE to make the most of their established main eventers.


On the original topic, I actually thought the main event stipulation on the royal rumble ruined it, so I'm delighted that the winner is only guaranteed a title shot. It means we are much more likely to see surprise winners, or up and comers.

flahavaj

Fozzy wrote: »

Misawa as champ in NOAH is a different situation I think. If he didn't have to be champ last year then I don't think he would have held the belt, but the fact is that he was the heavyweight who the people would pay to see. Morishima was busy in America all year and he was the only other possible champion

While I'm on Misawa though, I was thinking about this earlier. I think only about 12 people have pinned him in the last 15+ years. He's had booking power for about half of that too. But people don't complain about him abusing his power. There's nothing wrong with having someone who is incredibly difficult to beat and who is ahead of everyone else. Look at the situation in TNA where anyone can beat anyone and no one looks like a star because of it. HHH's gimmick has always been that he's a big guy who can destroy people. And the fans love him. According to WWE's website two HHH items and a DX item are outselling any Cena items

There's also the fact that practically everyone who isn't a fan of Cena's is a fan of HHH's. Stick them in the same match and you've got all your bases covered. With Cena vs Orton they'd be leaving out a large part of their audience who aren't fans of either guy. Plus it's been done recently

The big chalenge is to name the guys who have pinned Misawa, WITHOUT google........

Fozzy

Kobashi, Jumbo, Kawada, Samoa Joe, Vader, Steve Williams, Taue, Akiyama...Gordy and possibly Rikio? Can't remember who he won the GHC title off. Who am I missing...

flahavaj

Fozzy wrote: »

Kobashi, Jumbo, Kawada, Samoa Joe, Vader, Steve Williams, Taue, Akiyama...Gordy and possibly Rikio? Can't remember who he won the GHC title off. Who am I missing...

Stan Hansen maybe? I dunno you've made a good stab at it, I'll google it now!

flahavaj

Hmmm can't find definieive list but Hansen is definitely right. Didn't Rikio defeat Kobashi for the GHC Title though?

gimmick

Rikioh is part of that list. Not sure how i know that, but I do!

Fozzy

Rikio bet Misawa in one of his title defences. And a name you probably wouldn't think of, Gary Albright pinned him in a tag match in 1997. And I'd put money on Morishima joining that list this year and when that happens it'll be a massive boost to him because beating Misawa means so much