Ennis to Limerick line reopens

dmeehan

from rte.ie

Iarnród Éireann has said there will be no rail services between Ennis and Limerick at least until Sunday, because of flooding on the railway line.

Heavy rain has meant that a section of the line at Ballycar, between Ennis and Sixmilebridge is submerged under at least 12cm of water, and there has been no improvement since yesterday.

The company says it is monitoring the situation on a daily basis, but given the flooding levels at present it does not seem the line will be able to open so that services can resume before Sunday.

Around 600 commuters living and working in both Ennis and Limerick use the nine daily services on the line.

murphaph

Oh dear. The rest of the WRC presumably won't fair much better when it opens.

Chris_533976

Only 600 commuters on 9 services? I'm sure the WRC will be at least 1/10 as successful as that!

invincibleirish

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Only 600 commuters on 9 services? I'm sure the WRC will be at least 1/10 as successful as that!

Imagine if other provincial cities had a line like this, bet they would get more then that! cough*Midleton*cough

Victor

invincibleirish wrote: »

Midleton

No water, no track either.

invincibleirish

Victor wrote: »

No water, no track either.

Oh im sure Glouthane could flood if it really rained

Chris_533976

Cobh line flooded a few years ago, but that cut Cobh off completly (4 feet of water on the road bridge, railway line down, ferry couldnt run as it was above its slips!)

KC61

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Only 600 commuters on 9 services? I'm sure the WRC will be at least 1/10 as successful as that!

Well given the 9 services are operated by 2 car railcars, it's not as bad as it might sound.

1huge1

Only 600? From my experience that train is always packed

murphaph

No matter what way it's spun.....600 people a day is abysmal. 1 morning train on any approach to Dublin would carry two or three times as many people.

KC61

murphaph wrote: »

No matter what way it's spun.....600 people a day is abysmal. 1 morning train on any approach to Dublin would carry two or three times as many people.

Indeed it would....but a standard train into/out of Dublin is an 8 car 29000 which has an enormous difference in capacity to a 2-car 2700 (appx 100 seats).

There are only two journeys in either direction that are in the peak period, the rest are during the day and would not be expected to be full to capacity.

invincibleirish

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Cobh line flooded a few years ago, but that cut Cobh off completly (4 feet of water on the road bridge, railway line down, ferry couldnt run as it was above its slips!)

Jeepers thats crazy! is it true Cork CoCo. have unveiled plans for a 2+2 road and a new bridge to replace the current one and road on island side?

Chris_533976

Yeah theres big plans afoot, its not NRA related either as its an R road, which means it hopefully can be done sooner rather than later

I'll post a thread with the details.

Ham'nd'egger

KC61 wrote: »

Indeed it would....but a standard train into/out of Dublin is an 8 car 29000 which has an enormous difference in capacity to a 2-car 2700 (appx 100 seats).

There are only two journeys in either direction that are in the peak period, the rest are during the day and would not be expected to be full to capacity.

KC, it is useful to note that this is 600 people between Limerick and Ennis, the only two stops on the service. If people could board and alight at intermediate stops on the line, or even go a little further, this figure would rise somewhat.

invincibleirish

Hamndegger wrote: »

KC, it is useful to note that this is 600 people between Limerick and Ennis, the only two stops on the service. If people could board and alight at intermediate stops on the line, or even go a little further, this figure would rise somewhat.

Im guessing the cost of re-routing the line through Shannon and opening up Sixmilebridge would be far too much for such a proposal to pass?

jlang

KC61 wrote: »

Indeed it would....but a standard train into/out of Dublin is an 8 car 29000 which has an enormous difference in capacity to a 2-car 2700 (appx 100 seats).

There are only two journeys in either direction that are in the peak period, the rest are during the day and would not be expected to be full to capacity.

Your points are fair, but it's not as though three 8-car trains each way in the peak hour would lead to any greater number of passengers travelling. Noone could argue there is a not a clear need for more trains/capacity on the Maynooth line where there are already 7 trains (about half 4-car, half 8-car) inbound in an hour from 7:30 to 8:30.

Victor

dmeehan wrote: »

Limerick-Ennis rail services postponed until Sunday

Thread title adjusted.

Ham'nd'egger

invincibleirish wrote: »

Im guessing the cost of re-routing the line through Shannon and opening up Sixmilebridge would be far too much for such a proposal to pass?

Sixmilebridge Station is due to be re-opened as part of the WRC project; I am sure some enterprising bus company may lay on a feeder bus between there and Shannon. Re routing to Shannon Airport comes up occasionally but seems to be too costly to be practical.

Schuhart

jlang wrote: »

Your points are fair, but it's not as though three 8-car trains each way in the peak hour would lead to any greater number of passengers travelling. Noone could argue there is a not a clear need for more trains/capacity on the Maynooth line where there are already 7 trains (about half 4-car, half 8-car) inbound in an hour from 7:30 to 8:30.

I think you've said it. I know no-one has said it in this thread, but its rather annoying to see busloads of people moved about by heavy rail on this line, compared to a couple of trams being provided in Dublin, and then hearing regional politicians banging on as if the Western seaboard gets nothing. This kind of provision of infrastructure ahead of demand is unheard of in or around the Dublin area.

And I take it the question is in our minds as we see the figures - how much does it cost to sent this railcar up and down to Ennis nine times a day? What's the equivalent cost of a bus? 600 people a day seems like a very 'busable' demand. I have no information, but I take it that a railcar burns more fuel. Also, a bus would not have the constraint of only being able to stop at the stations on each end.

I know people have this knee-jerk reaction to defend anything vaguely connected to their locality. But that acts against sensible engagement with issues. For the sake of argument, would a bus service from Limerick timed to reach Shannon Airport for the first flight of the morning and/or the early shifts on the industrial estate not be more useful than sending mostly empty railcars up and down the line?

Chris_533976

Bus Eireann have a Limerick - Shannon service as well as their Limerick - Galway service that stops in Shannon.

The railway bypasses the hour long jamups incoming to Limerick from the west in the evenings. I'd use it if I lived in Ennis and commuted to Limerick. That said, 600 a day seems too little, but quite possibly thats due to apathy on the part of Irish Rail - ie: Services at lunatic times and a slow train.

Put the station at Sixmilebridge and extend a spur to Shannon. Even if its expensive, its essential infrastructure. It would be done in other countries and would help the hit Shannon (or Limerick Airport as it really should be called IMO) will take with the Open Skies and the Stopover ending.

DWCommuter

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Bus Eireann have a Limerick - Shannon service as well as their Limerick - Galway service that stops in Shannon.

The railway bypasses the hour long jamups incoming to Limerick from the west in the evenings. I'd use it if I lived in Ennis and commuted to Limerick. That said, 600 a day seems too little, but quite possibly thats due to apathy on the part of Irish Rail - ie: Services at lunatic times and a slow train.

Put the station at Sixmilebridge and extend a spur to Shannon. Even if its expensive, its essential infrastructure. It would be done in other countries and would help the hit Shannon (or Limerick Airport as it really should be called IMO) will take with the Open Skies and the Stopover ending.

That kind of thinking was used (justifiably) to promote the Limerick - Waterford - Rosslare line. However, Ennis has modern track, a peak time friendly timetable and whatever else was going at the time. The 600 passengers is about the height of it. The closure of this line by flooding, highlights a couple of things like the fact that when its an "intercity" line, this kind of closure should be deemed unacceptable on engineering grounds. Furthermore opening sixmilebridge or Cratloe adds nothing. The line runs through "one off housing laa laa land". New stations should be looked at in the Limerick city environs instead. The line is "very" suburban in this area. With a bit of running out towards Raheen on the old Foynes line, then Limerick has something tangible.

Getting back to the Ennis line and the WRC situation, A derailed train in Skerries, Co. Dublin caused chaos a few weeks back. Its an example of how important Dublin suburban rail is. The closure in Limerick - Ennis didn't matter and I doubt there would be anymore passenger discourse if it happened when the line serves Galway. The line is a joke. Unfortunetly, due to "Government policy", it's a joke with far ranging consequences for the busier parts of the rail network.

Schuhart

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I'd use it if I lived in Ennis and commuted to Limerick. That said, 600 a day seems too little,

Can I suggest that those two points just don't go together. If the competing bus service gets all the business, then presumably its just a better service. I can't help feeling this rail service only exists for the sake of it - I just can't see the justification for it. It must be quite an inefficient and expensive way of moving a few busloads of people around.

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Even if its expensive, its essential infrastructure.

In short, no. Its not essential infrastructure just because we assert it should be. This isn't about installing some iconic rail service. Either the socio-economic benefits justify the costs, or they don't. Looking at the numbers, it would look at first glance like they don't.

Chris_533976 wrote: »

It would be done in other countries and would help the hit Shannon (or Limerick Airport as it really should be called IMO) will take with the Open Skies and the Stopover ending.

I'm not sure this reasoning works. Prestwick - which is not dissimilar to Shannon - has a rail service that links it to Glasgow. Even though Glasgow is a city of 600,000 souls, much larger than Limerick, its rail station actually doesn't get used much by air passengers. Less than 5% of passengers use it, and that's a far more frequent service than (say) envisaged for the first phase of the WRC.

So, no, I don't think this logic holds up. A rail service to Shannon won't do much for the airport, and the airport won't generate that much business for the rail - even if we provide a far more frequent and expensive service than anyone has yet suggested. The numbers just aren't there. Now, if you could attract 5% of passengers using Dublin Airport onto a rail service, you'd have about a million punters. That might start cranking up the benefits to justify the investment - even if I don't actually see an airport metro as a priority myself. But that level of concentration just isn't there in Shannon.

However, I think the main thought that was striking me was how this kind of massive oversupply of infrastructure relative to demand just never happens around Dublin. Meanwhile, the West is paved with airports and Limerick has a heavy rail connection to Ennis for 600 people. That's an average of 60 per train - and the capacity of those cars is meant to be more than just the seats at peak times. All I can say is 'wow'.

Slice

New stations should be looked at in the Limerick city environs instead. The line is "very" suburban in this area. With a bit of running out towards Raheen on the old Foynes line, then Limerick has something tangible.

There is a station planned as part of the Moyross regeneration programme

invincibleirish

well according to the timetables its 40 mins by train and an hour by bus, and the fares i imagine are silghtly more expensive for the train?. also the timetables are both quite good for Ireland so i guess Ennis commuters just rather the bus? and that the demand just aint there for the train unless more stations are opened up. Ennis has better transport links then any Cork suburb/satellite town that i know of, guess it just shows the better local politicians you have the more you get. *sigh*:rolleyes:

Schuhart

invincibleirish wrote: »

Ennis has better transport links then any Cork suburb/satellite town that i know of, guess it just shows the better local politicians you have the more you get. *sigh*:rolleyes:

Indeed, and I really feel the space for tolerating this kind of thing needs to be removed. Its all very well for Christy Moore to belt out a ballad about Knock Airport. But wasting money on iconic infrastructure that make a nice backdrop for a group picture of local councillors means less to go around elsewhere.

As I understand it, Cork suburban services score very highly in cost-benefit analysis. Those guys in Ennis have got your train - and they don't really need it. The 'get on to your own politicians' line is weak, because its trying to drag sensible investment where it makes sense down to the level of parish pump politics. Its like saying 'your expectation that you'll actually get to eat the sandwich you just paid for has to be balanced with my desire to simply eat it even though I have no right to it whatsoever'.

Zoney

Ennis is roughly the same population as Navan, 24,253 and 24,851 respectively for population of town and environs (Census 2006).

Midleton is 2/5s the size (10,048 town and environs).

Also the Ennis line is operational, flooding aside, whereas the Midleton one is very much not.

Of course Midleton should have been built by now, but I'm simply pointing out how silly it is for people to suggest the Limerick-Ennis link is a sop to "Western" politicians (the stereotypical ones are in Mayo anyways).

invincibleirish

Zoney wrote: »

Ennis is roughly the same population as Navan, 24,253 and 24,851 respectively for population of town and environs (Census 2006).

Midleton is 2/5s the size (10,048 town and environs).

Also the Ennis line is operational, flooding aside, whereas the Midleton one is very much not.

Of course Midleton should have been built by now, but I'm simply pointing out how silly it is for people to suggest the Limerick-Ennis link is a sop to "Western" politicians (the stereotypical ones are in Mayo anyways).

Yeah but whats going to increase Ennis' 600 a day passenger load without spending millions??does anyone have the details on the Ennis line costs?i mean ive been in Sixmilebridge, its not that big that surely wont boost massively passenger numbers, what potential is there for stations on the northside of Limerick city?Surely the line as it is is not in profit, if im not mistaken Midleton is due to break even in its first few years?.Midleton will be serving Carrigtwohill, Glouthane, Little Island and proposed Dunkettle P&R, as well as Youghal commuters, better potential IMO then Ennis.

My point about the politicians, is that political influence is obviously important to secure funding for projects, Limerick has got Ennis railway and improved services on Line to Waterford. the west got the WRC. If only Cork politicians were as organised on transport matters (not just rail, dont forget the Airport debt issue, N25 flyovers etc. etc....).Where are our Cork politicians and priests demanding huge vanity projects? Hows about Re-building the West Cork line as the Southern Railway Corridor:p

Slice

Surely the line as it is is not in profit

The same can be said about most lines across the country.

Schuhart

Slice wrote: »

The same can be said about most lines across the country.

I'd take it you are right - the question is really whether the financial losses of a service can be justified by the overall economic benefits - which are basically that large numbers of people get to move around quicker while burning up less fuel and generally doing less environmental damage. 600 spread around 9 departures doesn't look like a large number of people in this context, and I doubt that using big thumping diesel railcars to move around busloads of people can be justified on enviromental grounds.

You are right that we need to take care to use the right terms, and define the issue correctly. But, of course, while doing that we shouldn't lose sight of the point.

Slice

There are only two stations on the Ennis line at the moment whereas I'm sure the bus stops everywhere along the route. Isn't anything more than 600 expecting a bit much of what's effectively a spur? I can think of a handful of tube lines in London that serve two stops that haven't been that successful either. I would be interested to see passenger figures with more stops and even extended out to Athy as a full-on commuter service.

Schuhart

Slice wrote: »

Isn't anything more than 600 expecting a bit much of what's effectively a spur?

Possibly, which does raise the question of whether its worth doing at all. I'd suggest any expansion of the service involves more money - and a need to relate that to potential benefit. I don't see that the present situation does more than confirm that rail needs a heavy concentration of people to be effective.

Poxyshamrock

Anyone know when service will resume?

invincibleirish

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?p=29343#post29343

Saw this discussion (and you poxyshamrock) at railusersireland on the Ennis line, the jist seems ot be Clare CoCo dont seem to be too pushed about re-opening Sixmilebridge, for shame!

phill106

I passed by it yesterday ( by accident) and stopped to look, its still just as flooded in that original picture. Its weird, one side of bridge is dry as bone, other side is drowned 20 metres aheead as far as eye can see.

talkingclock

is this the first time it happened? if not, why is there no drainage??

Polar101

I don't actually have an agenda, so I'll venture out to say this thread is a bit silly. The thread seems to suggest a discussion about a flooded railway line, but instead it is a rather negative discussion about how the passenger numbers aren't very high.

Oh, and the rail service between Prestwick and Glasgow is great - electric trains, station right at the airport, ridiculously cheap with a plain ticket. Wish we had something like that in Ireland.

Schuhart

Polar101 wrote: »

The thread seems to suggest a discussion about a flooded railway line, but instead it is a rather negative discussion about how the passenger numbers aren't very high.

Indeed, in a context where rail resources are quite limited we're a little stunned at how few people get moved by an expensive service. I can't actually see why commenting on this is a problem.

Polar101 wrote: »

Oh, and the rail service between Prestwick and Glasgow is great - electric trains, station right at the airport, ridiculously cheap with a plain ticket. Wish we had something like that in Ireland.

Oh, and Prestwick Airport railway station sees about 95,000 passengers a year. Let’s say all of those are air passengers.

Prestwick Airport handled 2,400,000 passengers in 2006.

It should be quite clear from this that the overwhelming majority of passengers don’t use the rail service, and it’s largely an iconic piece of infrastructure. I'm afraid we already have plenty of things in Ireland like that - starting with the West coast being paved with airports. I don't see things getting better too quickly as many people, like yourself, don't actually get the point.

In fairness to Ennis, by the looks of things, it’s not the only half-empty commuter service.

No demand had been expressed by the travelling public for a further service into Galway other than the single train that caters for commuters from Athlone, according to Iarnród Éireann. …… The only morning service that currently catered to commuters was only half full, Mr Glynn pointed out. “Based on market research we carried out three or four years ago, we don’t have a serious volume of requests for anearlier arrival than 8.20am,”he said.

All this is an context where the Western Development Commission, among others, bang on about the West not getting its fair share of transport resources. Have these people any idea? Or do they just not give a toss?

Chris_533976

TBH I'd take any stats that Irish Rail come out with with a pinch of salt.

invincibleirish

To bump this thread to ask the question is the Ennis line still closed? its been a couple of weeks and ive heard no mention of it re-opening, how on earth is a supposed intercity line still closed? could you imagine any other line being closed for this length of time?, it bodes so so well for when the WRC is reopened.....

Ham'nd'egger

invincibleirish wrote: »

To bump this thread to ask the question is the Ennis line still closed? its been a couple of weeks and ive heard no mention of it re-opening, how on earth is a supposed intercity line still closed? could you imagine any other line being closed for this length of time?, it bodes so so well for when the WRC is reopened.....

It is still closed as of today. An article in yesterdays Examiner stated that the problem may be to do with the local geology and that the OPW's men will be reporting back with suggestions on how to solve it. Given that the State knew about it some 140 odd years ago, they ought to know what they are to do :rolleyes: At this stage, it would appear that it is their issue to sort out and not that of Irish Rail. From the information I know, the line has been raised by Irish Rail several times over the years, and especially in the last 10 years.

Poxyshamrock

I was on a flight from Dublin last week and passed over the area and it's still very badly flooded so it'll be sometime before the track is back to normal.

KC61

IÉ can do nothing until the water subsides. These are apparently the worst floods that have ever happened in the area.

At that stage I would imagine that the line is going to have to be raised further between five and six feet at this point to avoid this happening again, which in itself is a major task.

invincibleirish

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0312/rail.html

Ennis-Limerick rail line to remain closed
Wednesday, 12 March 2008 15:15
Iarnród Éireann has confirmed that the Ennis to Limerick railway line is likely to be out of service until after Easter at the earliest.

The line has been flooded in Ballycar, close to Newmarket on Fergus in Co Clare, for 36 days, making the track impassable.

The line is being examined each day to check if there is any reduction in the floodwaters. It had been dropping by about an inch of water a day until last weekend, but heavy rain over the weekend and early this week means there is now seven inches of water on the track.

The company also confirmed today that the service is suffering because of the ongoing flooding problems. Buses have been replacing the service, and while it is direct between both points, passenger numbers are down about 33%.

Around 600 passengers were using the train service every day. The bus journey takes around 55 minutes, whereas the train journey takes 35.

In addition it is estimated that the hire of buses to replace the train service has cost Iarnród Éireann over €250,000 so far.

Once the floodwaters recede, the tracks and the track walls will have to be checked to ensure its safe to reopen the line. This will also involve sending a light engine along the track to make sure its safe for the service to resume.

whats caught my eye is that 250,000 Euro has been spent on replacement buses. now im no financial guru, but thats seems a waste as the train departs and arrives in the same location as BE buses in Ennis & Limerick, and seeing as there are no stops on the line why provide replacement buses when you can just tell the 600 daily rail passengers to go outside to the bus stop in Ennis/Limerick instead?

trellheim

€7+ grand a day [ 36 days out ] on replacement buses

that's mad ted. Where do I get me some of that gravy ?

1huge1

Well it means they'll have to a right job fixing the track this time now especially when the Line to galway is open, can;t be having stuff like this happening then.

deRanged

invincibleirish wrote: »

Oh im sure Glouthane could flood if it really rained

it does, just not usually to the level where they stop the service. they just slow down and plough on through.
which brings me to my point - how much water does it take to stop a train - over the tracks?

Ham'nd'egger

deRanged wrote: »

it does, just not usually to the level where they stop the service. they just slow down and plough on through.
which brings me to my point - how much water does it take to stop a train - over the tracks?

It depends from train type to type. Diesel Electric Locos can go through water that more or less touches it's traction motors (You are talking up to one foot over rail bottoms) and are limited to 5MPH when doing so. I am unsure about railcars but I would assume that the same limits would apply; in the case of flooded track, there is a high risk of track subsidence hence slow speeds.

invincibleirish

Hooray!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0326/rail.html

Ennis-Limerick rail line set to re-open
Wednesday, 26 March 2008 18:29
Iarnroód Éireann says it expects the Ennis to Limerick rail line to reopen tomorrow morning.

The line has been closed since 6 February because of flooding on the line near Ballycar, between Sixmilebridge and Newmarket on Fergus.

The company said this evening following an inspection early tomorrow morning, they are confident the rail line will re open for passenger trains starting with the 9.20am Limerick to Ennis service.

AdvertisementHowever while the train service will return to normal, bus transfers have to be introduced to replace the train service from 6pm on Saturday 29 March to 10am on Sunday, to allow for planned track improvement works at Ennis Junction.

Zoney

Just as well. Limerick is getting worse by the day to try and get into by car, bus, whatever.

Now, if only there was a suburban train service out southwest of the city and east of it. Unfortunately even if they started such a service, the Dublin line doesn't really service the east of the city and the campus of 10,000+ at UL. Nothing for it but traffic queues, waiting for buses and driving around looking for a spare bit of kerb or car park verge at UL. Or you can risk life or limb cycling (buy several new bikes/locks each year too!). Even walking you risk your lungs with all the traffic fumes and construction dust - the entire side of the city is a building site. And it'll be even more impressive queues of traffic when they finish.

Sorry, devolved into a bit of a rant.

Very good news that the line has reopened and it won't come a moment too soon being able to get to Galway without getting stuck in traffic and/or cramped on a bus.

Victor

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/travel_alerts.asp?action=view&news_id=330

Ennis to Limerick line reopens by Corporate Communications

UPDATE 27th March 2008 - 09.00hrs

Iarnród Éireann advise that the Ennis to Limerick rail line has reopened.

The first service to operate is this morning's 09.20 Limerick to Ennis service, and services will now operate as normal.

This is welcome news for Ennis rail commuters following the closure of the line since the 6th February last due to flooding near Ballycar.

While train services will operate as normal over today and Friday, planned track improvement works at Ennis Junction mean that train services will be replaced by bus transfers from 18.00 hrs on Saturday 29th March to 10.00hrs on Sunday 30th March.

Iarnrod Eireann apologies to customers for the inconvenience caused during this period of closure and are looking forward to the full resumption of train services on the Ennis line from next Monday.

invincibleirish

Zoney wrote: »

Just as well. Limerick is getting worse by the day to try and get into by car, bus, whatever.

Now, if only there was a suburban train service out southwest of the city and east of it. Unfortunately even if they started such a service, the Dublin line doesn't really service the east of the city and the campus of 10,000+ at UL. Nothing for it but traffic queues, waiting for buses and driving around looking for a spare bit of kerb or car park verge at UL. Or you can risk life or limb cycling (buy several new bikes/locks each year too!)

No offence but i've been hearing this UL as a potential rail base on these boards and elsewhere since i went to UL 3/4 years ago and i dont buy it, a decent bus service is all UL (and Castletroy) needs currently, UL is only at 10,000 capacity for 26 weeks of the year. maybe if a massive P&R was built servicing commuters from Tipp & Co. Limerick but even then i cannot imagine any kind of project being justified in numbers.

Cork in comparison has an ok bus service (no.5) serving UCC & CIT, together they have a combined student population of in and around 25,000 as well as the parts of Bishopstown & College Rd. on its route, even then in summer time the buses are very quite.

I suggest building a lot of green routes and buy more buses to turn Limerick into a public transport friendly city, not the Ennis line or the rest of the WRC type projects with 600 passengers a day
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