I'm 16 and want to get into politics, is this the right place to be laughed at?

DanOB

Yes, its true..

My name is Dan, im 16 years of age, and i want to get involved in politics.

I dont have a party, and my views are simplistic.. Ireland has some ridiculous laws..

I want to get into politics simply because i want to change the laws that make Ireland the laughing stock of the EU.

Laws such as not being able to defend yourself in your own home

Laws such as the time on the 'Life' sentance

Laws such as drug trafficing etc..

We all hear of public debates on 'Why youths dont have an interest in politics?', well i do.. For those of you who were listening to it a few months ago, there was a topic on the FM104 Phoneshow about lowering the voting age.. Adrian as usual was presenting, and i rang a staggering 15 times, to be hung up on time and time again. Adrian eventually decided to annoy me by hypothetically asking 'Why no youths were phoning in?', to which i rang a further 5 times, same story..

My school is a CBS school and doenst have a debating club, or even a student council.. the fact that it doenst have a student council i find very annoying.

So, im asking you, the general public and maybe even professionals if your out there, how the hell should i go about getting into politics?

Regards,

Dan

Akrasia

DanOB wrote: »

Yes, its true..

My name is Dan, im 16 years of age, and i want to get involved in politics.

I dont have a party, and my views are simplistic.. Ireland has some ridiculous laws..

I want to get into politics simply because i want to change the laws that make Ireland the laughing stock of the EU.

Laws such as not being able to defend yourself in your own home

Laws such as the time on the 'Life' sentance

Laws such as drug trafficing etc..

We all hear of public debates on 'Why youths dont have an interest in politics?', well i do.. For those of you who were listening to it a few months ago, there was a topic on the FM104 Phoneshow about lowering the voting age.. Adrian as usual was presenting, and i rang a staggering 15 times, to be hung up on time and time again. Adrian eventually decided to annoy me by hypothetically asking 'Why no youths were phoning in?', to which i rang a further 5 times, same story..

My school is a CBS school and doenst have a debating club, or even a student council.. the fact that it doenst have a student council i find very annoying.

So, im asking you, the general public and maybe even professionals if your out there, how the hell should i go about getting into politics?

Regards,

Dan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeLSNzEorbI

Latchy

DanOB wrote: »

Yes, its true..

My name is Dan, im 16 years of age, and i want to get involved in politics.

I dont have a party, and my views are simplistic.. Ireland has some ridiculous laws..

I want to get into politics simply because i want to change the laws that make Ireland the laughing stock of the EU.

Laws such as not being able to defend yourself in your own home

That law also applies in the uk to so fair play to you Dan .

Laws such as the time on the 'Life' sentance

Laws such as drug trafficing etc..

Drug trafficking should have the same long sentencing as murders etc and life should mean life .

We all hear of public debates on 'Why youths dont have an interest in politics?', well i do.. For those of you who were listening to it a few months ago, there was a topic on the FM104 Phoneshow about lowering the voting age.. Adrian as usual was presenting, and i rang a staggering 15 times, to be hung up on time and time again. Adrian eventually decided to annoy me by hypothetically asking 'Why no youths were phoning in?', to which i rang a further 5 times, same story..

Good ol irish indifference or maybe just plain iggnorence Dan .

Best wish's

DanOB

Akrasia wrote: »

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emm thanks.. really helpfull

DanOB

latchyco wrote: »

That law also applies in the uk to so fair play to you Dan .



Drug trafficking should have the same long sentencing as murders etc and life should mean life .



Good ol irish indifference or maybe just plain iggnorence Dan .

Best wish's

any advice on how to get into it though? like, how can i make a difference at my age? a big difference.. and i dont want anyone giving me the whole 'turn off the lights upon exiting a room' speech

Latchy

DanOB wrote: »

any advice on how to get into it though? like, how can i make a difference at my age? a big difference.. and i dont want anyone giving me the whole 'turn off the lights upon exiting a room' speech

I suppose the most obious thing to do Dan would be to join a political party of your choice cuz let's face it , it's the only way you /we can make a difference although i understand if you are reluctant to join a party as Politicians are usually on most people agendas of ' love to hate ' with all the sleeze which explains all the no voters at polls .

Trying to make a change in society by young people like yourself is nothing new but you will find time and time again that all your good will , will come up against a wall of indifference but that's not to say you should not carry on with your ideas .It might just boil down to which party you join in the end ,at least in the democratic sense of the word .

Greenpeace and becoming a volunteer also spring to mind .They are more hands on and worth thinking about .

DanOB

im thinking about labour party.. any fors/againsts on it?

Akrasia

DanOB wrote: »

emm thanks.. really helpfull

I'm sorry for being so dismissive.
You're 16, you're supposed to be having fun, socialising, experimenting, not plotting future global domination, worrying about 'the state of the country' and whether people are laughing at us (they're not) and complaining about an imaginary revolving door prison system.

If you truly are interested in politics, I suggest you go to your book shop and buy a political theory text book. Get a reader that compiles the thoughts of the greats in political philosophy (I have an excellent one but I can't remember the name right now)

Read it and develop your own world view. The worst thing you could do (unless you're only into politics as a career choice) is to join a party so young and limit your horizons to the propaganda and indoctrination that typically surrounds such organisations.

Latchy

I am not living in ireland Dan so any opinions on local irish politics is only in the main from front page news that i read and the Labour party/goverment in uk at the moement is more sleezy than any other in History so i am on the fence with this i'm afraid .

Edit -

JFK (the president , not the womaniser ) was a great idealist .His profiles in courage is a great read and was written when he was a youg man , just like yourself

Overheal

Akrasia wrote: »

Develop your own world view. The worst thing you could do (unless you're only into politics as a career choice) is to join a party so young and limit your horizons to the propaganda and indoctrination that typically surrounds such organisations.

+1. Like it or not youre at the impressionable age. People know how to exploit that. Protect yourself a bit and do the learning for yourself.

The_Minister

Akrasia wrote: »

I'm sorry for being so dismissive.
You're 16, you're supposed to be having fun, socialising, experimenting, not plotting future global domination, worrying about 'the state of the country' and whether people are laughing at us (they're not) and complaining about an imaginary revolving door prison system.

If you truly are interested in politics, I suggest you go to your book shop and buy a political theory text book. Get a reader that compiles the thoughts of the greats in political philosophy (I have an excellent one but I can't remember the name right now)

Read it and develop your own world view. The worst thing you could do (unless you're only into politics as a career choice) is to join a party so young and limit your horizons to the propaganda and indoctrination that typically surrounds such organisations.

I never, ever thought I'd do this, but......

post++ (except the last two lines)

Akrasia

I've tracked down that book.
It's 'Political Thought' edited by Rosen and Wolff and published by the oxford university press.
140 key readings by political philosophers (all parts of the spectrum)
Its very nicely categorised into the different areas of political
debate. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Political-Thought-Oxford-Readers-Michael/dp/0192892789

DadaKopf

DanOB wrote: »

im thinking about labour party.. any fors/againsts on it?

It's all a matter of conviction and following whether you agree with a party's politics or not. As Akrasia said, the only way to decide whether or who you join is to read up on political theories and current affairs, that way, you'll develop your own perspective.

You're young, and you should spend your time exploring before you commit. Don't forget, university is ahead of you, and that's where things start coming together for people.

I never joined a political party in college, by choice, but I became very political. I pursued a few avenues in college focused on understanding more about the world and issues of concern to me. A degree, a masters and three years later and I've been working in non-governmental organisations on policy issues, first in international development NGOs, and now in an Irish organisation that conducts research on social injustice in Ireland and builds support to change Government policy.

But I only came to this after a lot of thinking. It's fascinating to look back on politics essays I wrote in first year in college because my opinions have changed so much, and I like it that way. And I hope, years from now, I'm still capable of changing my mind.

It's a deeply personal matter about what party to join, and everyone has their reasons, which aren't necessarily political ones. I could talk about the characters I came across over the years who, I think, symbolise particular parties and their cultures, but it's your decision. And there are other ways to change things than to go into a political party. But either way, it's great to see people excited about politics at 16. Incidentally, in Austria you can vote at 16 - an indication of how young adults are valued as active citizens.

eoinmadden

Go to the various party websites.
Read their 2007 election manifestos. See which one you agree with most.
You seem interested in Justice policy. Read their policies on that.

Email the local candidate or a member of the local organisation.
Go along to some meetings.
Download the membership form.
Go canvassing for the 2009 local elections.

Also, check out the various youth parties, such as Ógra Fianna Fáil, Young Fine Gael, Labour Youth, Young Greens, Ógra Shinn Fein, etc.

Zombrex

DanOB wrote: »

im thinking about labour party.. any fors/againsts on it?

Yes, you should develop on your own, stay away from a political party they will brain wash you, JUST DO WHAT WE SAY DAMN IT!!! :rolleyes:

Dan if you want to get into politics that is a decision you should make yourself, which you seem to have. You have asked for genuine advice, its a pity few here respect you enough to give it to you without lecturing you.

My (genuine) advice would be to look around for a political party that has policies that appeal to you. Based on your first post I don't think that would be Labour, but I really don't know enough of your views to know for certain.

Most of the political parties in Ireland have Youth divisions

Labour Youth
Young Fine Gael
Ogra Fianna Fail
Young Progressive Democrats
Green Party

Few of the major political parties in Ireland that I'm aware of would support the idea of lethal force is justified in non-self defense situations in a persons home, so you might need to look around a bit more if that is a major issue of yours.

duggie-89

DanOB wrote: »

Yes, its true..

My name is Dan, im 16 years of age, and i want to get involved in politics.

I dont have a party, and my views are simplistic.. Ireland has some ridiculous laws..

I want to get into politics simply because i want to change the laws that make Ireland the laughing stock of the EU.

Laws such as not being able to defend yourself in your own home

Laws such as the time on the 'Life' sentance

Laws such as drug trafficing etc..

We all hear of public debates on 'Why youths dont have an interest in politics?', well i do.. For those of you who were listening to it a few months ago, there was a topic on the FM104 Phoneshow about lowering the voting age.. Adrian as usual was presenting, and i rang a staggering 15 times, to be hung up on time and time again. Adrian eventually decided to annoy me by hypothetically asking 'Why no youths were phoning in?', to which i rang a further 5 times, same story..

My school is a CBS school and doenst have a debating club, or even a student council.. the fact that it doenst have a student council i find very annoying.

So, im asking you, the general public and maybe even professionals if your out there, how the hell should i go about getting into politics?

Regards,

Dan

dan i would suggest that you dont jump in, look around hear out and think of various political theorys and movements look them up and their effects. personal from an early age i loved politics and join the republican movement and started thinking up of various views.

the first thing you can do and i know its hard but put up afew posters in your area to highlight your views it can be daunting but try and find other groups that share your views, go to afew rally's and see what you think.

labour has some good policies but if i was to advise you on a party it would either be lab or SF

duggie-89

Wicknight wrote: »

Most of the political parties in Ireland have Youth divisions

Labour Youth
Young Fine Gael
Ogra Fianna Fail
Young Progressive Democrats
Green Party

clearly you are forgetting about orgra Sinn Fein who in my opinion have quite an active youth group.

http://www.osf.pro.ie/ or you can infact look up bebo sites or facebook sites. most modern political parties will have an page or something.

Zombrex

duggie-89 wrote: »

clearly you are forgetting about orgra Sinn Fein who in my opinion have quite an active youth group.

http://www.osf.pro.ie/ or you can infact look up bebo sites or facebook sites. most modern political parties will have an page or something.

Apologies, you are right they have a very active youth division

PHB

Ignore political parties, you'll just get stuck in a rut. Best thing to do is try to clarify your ideas, and improve you public speaking ability.
Find a team-mate in your school, then next year take part in the Leinster Schools Debating Competition.

You can find out about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denny_Schools_Debating_Competition

Contact either the Hist in Trinity or the L&H in UCD over taking part.

Akrasia

Wicknight wrote: »

Most of the political parties in Ireland have Youth divisions

Labour Youth
Young Fine Gael
Ogra Fianna Fail
Young Progressive Democrats
Green Party

Few of the major political parties in Ireland that I'm aware of would support the idea of lethal force is justified in non-self defense situations in a persons home, so you might need to look around a bit more if that is a major issue of yours.

From my experience of Labour youth, they're a lot more radical/left wing than the 'new' labour centre right organisation in the Dail. I doubt they'd share Dan's opinions on crime and punishment.

I'll say it again. I think he should educate himself before he commits to any ideology. The very basics like the justification for a state, the role of government, the different theories about property, poverty, crime etc.

At the very least, it will be valuable in debates in future.

If you're an idealist, you will want to inform yourself. If you are a careerist, then you will join whatever party you think offers you the best prospects.

ninty9er

I'd say you should take a journey over to politics.ie and have a poke around.

Okay, I'm in a political party and I'm 21 so I'm going to give it a plug.

The Ógra Fianna Fáil National Youth Conference is on in Tullamore on the 23rd and 24th of this month. Observers are welcome to come along. You can contact HQ if you're interested in test-driving FF. YFG recently had their conference so that ship has sailed for another while. Go along to a Labour Youth event, but be warned that Labour Youth is not all that similar to Labour.

I've been to 2 previous conferences and 3 Ard-Fheiseanna, and it's really more a social outlet where people who've worked hard for the party can come together to debate internal policy, national issues, but also have some great craic. (At the last Ard-Fheis; I bitched about the 1/3 internal gender equality rules, spoke about childcare for 3 minutes on the main stage and enjoyed the residents bar untiel the wee hours:D:D)

While those who encourage joining a debating society have a point, to an extent it negates politics as it requires you to be able to debate both ways on demand, whereas politics requires you to speak only in regards to that which you agree with.

I really enjoy taunting the "die hards" too, for example by slamming the table and moaning "What the fu<k has he done" when Bertie announced the manifest plan to reduce Income tax at the last Ard-Fheis.

Whatever party (if) you do decide to join, do make sure you don't make any secret of your disagreement on certain issues. You will mention it to someone and it will come back and bite you in the ass!!

Forget the political theorists, as Irish politics is the farthest thing from political literature that you're going to find. I have friends studing politics modules and they bear little to no resemblance to real politics. Better off to read a few biographies if you want to do some reading

passive

Yeah, get yourself sorted with the boys nice and early .

DadaKopf

passive wrote: »

Yeah, get yourself sorted with the boys nice and early .

Hehehehe. In my years, I'm convinced there are immutable personality types whose progeny crawl from the primordial ooze each generation to rise to the heights (and lows, mainly lows) of our most esteemed political parties. They're different people, but always the same. I've seen how ugly, and, quite frankly, unstable individuals cowered in the FF Cumann or FG fireplace, PD bunker or SF safe-house for warmth, to escape the social chills outside. This is the true origin of Irish political tribalism - I saw how they greeted neophytes into their lairs only to pick off the weaklings and plan how to screw over the normals and attack the enemy, swiping free booze, teenage wagons fornicating with troglodytes, and attacking anyone verbally and, at times, physically. Things were similar in the Labour commune, but not as enraging as the others.

The same goes for the debating societies - Michael McDowell being a particular case in point.

Forget the political theorists, as Irish politics is the farthest thing from political literature that you're going to find. I have friends studing politics modules and they bear little to no resemblance to real politics. Better off to read a few biographies if you want to do some reading

Typical FF. "Things are broke, but they work just fine for us, thanks." You are aware that people theories about Irish politics, too? The more and more I've read, the more I've realised how little we share with mainland Europe and how much we share with sub-Saharan Africa. That goes for political theory and political reality. But ask yourself, is this the way things ought to be?

The key political question for anyone to ask is: "Who benefits?"

Rock Climber

DadaKopf wrote: »

Typical FF. "Things are broke, but they work just fine for us, thanks." You are aware that people theories about Irish politics, too? The more and more I've read, the more I've realised how little we share with mainland Europe and how much we share with sub-Saharan Africa. That goes for political theory and political reality. But ask yourself, is this the way things ought to be?

The key political question for anyone to ask is: "Who benefits?"

I could retort by saying typical idealism!
The people who benefit are the people who vote who are the same people who are saying in the main I'm alright jack.
Thats the majority of the 60 odd percent that regularally vote.
Those that don't probably have themselves to blame if they dont like the results of elections.

Mind you,a good percentage of those that dont vote are probably of similar views to those that do.
It's not altogether right to expect a majority of them to be the apathetic.
Thats why I discount all this fervour for a type of idealism that people on the whole generally keep on rejecting (they have a free choice to go look for it if they wanted it).
Thats where your acceptance of political reality comes in.
In essence people have their grievances but they are on the whole more or less alright jack.

DadaKopf

Rock Climber wrote: »

I could retort by saying typical idealism!
The people who benefit are the people who vote who are the same people who are saying in the main I'm alright jack.
Thats the majority of the 60 odd percent that regularally vote.
Those that don't probably have themselves to blame if they dont like the results of elections.

Mind you,a good percentage of those that dont vote are probably of similar views to those that do.
It's not altogether right to expect a majority of them to be the apathetic.
Thats why I discount all this fervour for a type of idealism that people on the whole generally keep on rejecting (they have a free choice to go look for it if they wanted it).
Thats where your acceptance of political reality comes in.
In essence people have their grievances but they are on the whole more or less alright jack.

How could "who benefits?" be idealistic? It's cold realism.

And you're right. Somewhere down the line, the huddled masses are voting in the same retards time and again. But who is benefiting more?

While asking that, also ask why people vote this way. I suggested reasons in another thread. It's really not so black and white; in fact, to me, it points precisely to the African-style politics I mentioned above.

It's very typical for FFers to not understand the dialectical relationship between how things are and how things ought to be - one generates the other. FF (and to a lesser extent FG) are driven by the conservative urge to keep things as they are.

Rock Climber

Yes but like,the idealism centric notions behind what you are espousing dada has to work on the preposition that people will agree easily.
They don't and thats where idealism falls.
More often than not it is an enforced ideology rather than an agreed one and thats an inherent hypocrisy.
The other serious thing that doesnt settle well with wanting everything in the garden to be rosy is the constant need to diss people who by human right are entitled to have a totally opposing view to your own.
By that I'm referring to the need to refer to the people that others vote for as retards.
Other people dont think so and are entitled to be of that view.
It's a fallacyto suggest that theres something wrong with other peoples decisions or opinions just because they dont equate to your own world view.
People are self centred on the whole and vote accordingly.
At the end of the day they are afraid to do anything than might upset the somewhat comfortable stage that they have got to despite some grumbles.

Akrasia

Rock Climber wrote: »

I could retort by saying typical idealism!
The people who benefit are the people who vote who are the same people who are saying in the main I'm alright jack.
Thats the majority of the 60 odd percent that regularally vote.
Those that don't probably have themselves to blame if they dont like the results of elections.

Ah, a rational choice theorist who thinks that all decisions are free and and all institutions act independently of one another.

(although there are a lot of rational choice theorists who claim that the only rational choice is to not vote)

You need to explore the concepts of institutionalism

DadaKopf

Yes but like,the idealism centric notions behind what you are espousing dada has to work on the preposition that people will agree easily.
They don't and thats where idealism falls.
More often than not it is an enforced ideology rather than an agreed one and thats an inherent hypocrisy.

You just don't get it. Pragmatism is one thing. Idealism is another. Utopianism is different still. It's so typical of people in this country to shut down debate by jumping to extremes. "Huh, huh, so-n-so wants things to be better, huh-huh, what an idiot, doesn't he know things can't be perfect? Huh-huh, what a retard!" This is the height of stupidity to me. You also accuse me of being anti-democratic. Nothing could be further from the truth. How on earth, by communicating my opinions, am I spreading an 'enforced ideology'? But don't believe me, believe Brian Cowen, he knows what democracy is about. In a Dáil debate last year he said:

It is for this house to represent the citizens of Ireland, not resisters of change.

I'm glad that you admit that "It's a fallacy to suggest that theres something wrong with other peoples decisions or opinions just because they dont equate to your own world view." I totally agree. Unfortunately the fatheads running our Government don't. See, I disagree with the FF-led government on a great many issues, but apparently I'm no longer a citizen because the people I voted for to represent my views are traitors (FF's word). That's how much contempt for democracy there is in this country. You see, democracy is a struggle - a struggle between competing visions of today and tomorrow. It's not perfect, and power is at the heart of everything from our family relations to business right up to international politics. Your decripit idea of people as purely rational is designed to cover this up. I'd think again if I were you.

By that I'm referring to the need to refer to the people that others vote for as retards.

Ever heard of sarcasm?

Rock Climber

DadaKopf wrote: »

You just don't get it. Pragmatism is one thing. Idealism is another. Utopianism is different still. It's so typical of people in this country to shut down debate by jumping to extremes. "Huh, huh, so-n-so wants things to be better, huh-huh, what an idiot, doesn't he know things can't be perfect? Huh-huh, what a retard!" This is the height of stupidity to me. You also accuse me of being anti-democratic. Nothing could be further from the truth. How on earth, by communicating my opinions, am I spreading an 'enforced ideology'? But don't believe me, believe Brian Cowen, he knows what democracy is about. In a Dáil debate last year he said:

I'm glad that you admit that "It's a fallacy to suggest that theres something wrong with other peoples decisions or opinions just because they dont equate to your own world view." I totally agree. Unfortunately the fatheads running our Government don't. See, I disagree with the FF-led government on a great many issues, but apparently I'm no longer a citizen because the people I voted for to represent my views are traitors (FF's word). That's how much contempt for democracy there is in this country. You see, democracy is a struggle - a struggle between competing visions of today and tomorrow. It's not perfect, and power is at the heart of everything from our family relations to business right up to international politics. Your decripit idea of people as purely rational is designed to cover this up. I'd think again if I were you.


Ever heard of sarcasm?

My God.
I just don't know how to respond to that rant except to say it's everything I've described in my previous two posts.
It's another roundabout way of saying,hey they're all wrong because they don't agree with my world view.
Ever consider that your world view might be wrong?

akrasia wrote:

Ah, a rational choice theorist who thinks that all decisions are free and and all institutions act independently of one another.

(although there are a lot of rational choice theorists who claim that the only rational choice is to not vote)

You need to explore the concepts of institutionalism

What,you think I am not capable of free thought in coming to my conclusions?
Same question to you then,I'll word it differently as that seems to be the in vogue way of rehashing the same thoughts over and over.
Ever consider that your views might be symptomatic of another type of institution ie some kind of search for perfection that the vast majority of people are perfectly entitled to reject in favour of what suits themselves?

DanOB

i love politics..

might go to the next labour conference..

ninty9er

What have any of the last few posts got to do with the OP.

Are any of you members of political parties in this country??

Rock Climber

Everything really.
The crux of some of the advice here is really ,don't join any of the more popular parties because well they're all the same and won't do some of the more idealistic perfection(with a small "p" as it's clearly a minority view of perfection) oriented things you'd find in dusty corners of the library.
I'm providing a counter argument in that I feel the best way to activate some of your opinions is to push for them within one of the main parties and to have a realistic outlook on what is and isn't achievable in terms of your views.

DadaKopf

I just don't know how to respond to that rant except to say it's everything I've described in my previous two posts.

No. What you don't get is that I explained I'm not a utopian, and that, in my view, I don't accept things as they are. I have ideas about how I'd like things to be. And what eejit wouldn't want things to be better? There's always something to be fixed. And I'll argue passionately for them. Note: I'M NOT A UTOPIAN. GET THAT? As a citizen living in a democracy, I debate these issues, but accept the democratic process such that it is. It's Brian Cowen, the second most powerful politician in Ireland, who has contempt for democracy. He thinks that people who disagree with him are not citizens. I don't believe that the creation of a marketised, two/three tier health system is the right thing to do. But how this makes me a traitor and a fascist in your view, while Cowen is perfectly justified to piss all over the principle of democracy is beyond me. You're mad.

You only have to look around to you to realise things need to be better. Are you blind? People, that's other than myself, you know, NOT ME, are worried about the government's handling of the economy, bad planning, inadequate public transport, long commute times, expensive childcare, the health system, the education system, job creation, increasing inequality ... the list goes on. Now, if you're one of those people who think everything's just hunky dory, fine, you're entitled to your opinion (I don't know who you are or your personal circumstances). But characterising people who think the country shouldn't be so rubbish as maniacs ... grow up, dude.

DadaKopf

Rock Climber wrote: »

Everything really.
The crux of some of the advice here is really ,don't join any of the more popular parties because well they're all the same and won't do some of the more idealistic perfection(with a small "p" as it's clearly a minority view of perfection) oriented things you'd find in dusty corners of the library.
I'm providing a counter argument in that I feel the best way to activate some of your opinions is to push for them within one of the main parties and to have a realistic outlook on what is and isn't achievable in terms of your views.

Dude, most people's advice was for the OP not to rush things, and that there are other ways to be political. That, basically, it's the OP's choice.

Rock Climber

DadaKopf wrote: »

No. What you don't get is that I explained I'm not a utopian, and that, in my view, I don't accept things as they are. I have ideas about how I'd like things to be. And what eejit wouldn't want things to be better? There's always something to be fixed. And I'll argue passionately for them. Note: I'M NOT A UTOPIAN. GET THAT? As a citizen living in a democracy, I debate these issues, but accept the democratic process such that it is. It's Brian Cowen, the second most powerful politician in Ireland, who has contempt for democracy. He thinks that people who disagree with him are not citizens. I don't believe that the creation of a marketised, two/three tier health system is the right thing to do. But how this makes me a traitor and a fascist in your view, while Cowen is perfectly justified to piss all over the principle of democracy is beyond me. You're mad.

Where did I diss your views as is the implication of the above.
I've told you that I think,that you might want to reevaluate them in terms of whats realistic given that it's so hard to get movement on what you want as so many people want it this way,that way or the other way.
Get that?

You only have to look around to you to realise things need to be better. Are you blind? People, that's other than myself, you know, NOT ME, are worried about the government's handling of the economy, bad planning, inadequate public transport, long commute times, expensive childcare, the health system, the education system, job creation, increasing inequality ... the list goes on. Now, if you're one of those people who think everything's just hunky dory, fine, you're entitled to your opinion (I don't know who you are or your personal circumstances). But characterising people who think the country shouldn't be so rubbish as maniacs ... grow up, dude.

Again,I don't know where the misconception is coming from.
But really personal abuse is not debate.

Dub6Kevin

I think we're using a very narrow definition of politics here.

I wouldn't get too caught up on involving yourself in a political party but instead get involved with issues you feel strongly about.

There are thousands of campaigns which you can get involved in whether they be human rights, pro life/pro choice, animal rights, ecological, constitutional or whatever.

Also, you're more likely to be able to play a fuller role in such organisations and get some experience of campaigning and lobbying under your belt.

Through such organisations you will almost certainly cross paths with some or all of the political parties and you might find yourself drawn to one of them.

And good luck.

DadaKopf

Yup, good advice there.

Akrasia

Rock Climber wrote: »

My God.
I just don't know how to respond to that rant except to say it's everything I've described in my previous two posts.
It's another roundabout way of saying,hey they're all wrong because they don't agree with my world view.

Nope, I was saying that people don't all vote for the same reasons, and just because someone votes for a party doesn't mean they endorse all of their positions, and nor does someone who votes for someone else, or decides not to vote forfeit all rights to be a citizen or engage in political debate.

Voting is an extremely blunt instrument.

Ever consider that your world view might be wrong?What,you think I am not capable of free thought in coming to my conclusions?

I suggested that you explore a different way of looking at things. There is a debate in policy and politics between rational choice theory, and institutionalism. Rational choice theory is a off shoot of classical liberal economic and Utilitarianism. It assumes that every decision is made by a rational actor in his/her own best interests. It is deeply flawed because it doesn't properly include the very very real constraints that limit people's choices.
People's voting patterns say very little about their values.

Same question to you then,I'll word it differently as that seems to be the in vogue way of rehashing the same thoughts over and over.
Ever consider that your views might be symptomatic of another type of institution ie some kind of search for perfection that the vast majority of people are perfectly entitled to reject in favour of what suits themselves?

I am not in a search for perfection. I am in favour of pursuing optimal outcomes. In order to improve things, we need to understand the processes and constraints and find ways to overcome them, rather than always accepting their existence and working to sustain a very flawed system.

The Corinthian

DanOB wrote: »

I'm 16 and want to get into politics, is this the right place to be laughed at?

One of them at any rate.

But seriously, and giving a completely alternative approach, you might concentrate on business, big or small, and then use direct or indirect contributions in terms of donations or material assistance to candidates who are aligned to your views. This gives one the advantage of political involvement without the need for party partisanship.

And it's always worked for me.

nesf

Akrasia wrote: »

Rational choice theory is a off shoot of classical liberal economic and Utilitarianism. It assumes that every decision is made by a rational actor in his/her own best interests. It is deeply flawed because it doesn't properly include the very very real constraints that limit people's choices.

That is, if you apply it naively. It can be a useful way of looking at things, you just need to work within its limits. Similar to any conceptual tool in this area.

Akrasia

nesf wrote: »

That is, if you apply it naively. It can be a useful way of looking at things, you just need to work within its limits. Similar to any conceptual tool in this area.

The only time rational choice theory can stand up to scrutiny is when it is re-framed to include many of the aspects of institutionalism and structuralism. Rational Choice theory as an individualist theory is hopelessly flawed, and it is in this context that I was challenging Rock Climber. His claim that election preferences are somehow a reliable indicator of individual choices is patently absurd. "FF were voted in, therefore everything FF do is endorsed by the majority of the population"

DadaKopf

As someone said in a book I've been editing:

We are rational beings, but we are also relational beings.

Anyway, Akrasia, it was public choice theory (based on the rational actor model) that developed theories about the 'irrationality of voting'. I think it was Kenneth Arrow's work.

In other words, and I think we agree here, the politics that bind people to a vote runs much deeper. The locus of power is outside the mere procedure of voting.

annie19

lets face it, your not going to make a real difference on your own. Get a group together and MAKE A STUDENT COUNCIL.
Create ur own opinions and then join a political party that matches these, thats the only way you wil be true to yourself.
;);););)

nesf

Akrasia wrote: »

The only time rational choice theory can stand up to scrutiny is when it is re-framed to include many of the aspects of institutionalism and structuralism.

I think you're misapplying it if that's the case. This is off-topic for this thread though, so better to leave it be.

Rossibaby

hi dan,i am about to join RSYM,the republican socialist youth movement.they are an excellent option with great polotics if you are inclined to believe in left-wing ideas.the goals of the party is to achieve a united ireland with the working people of catholics and protestants uniting under common ground which effect their community aswell as giving the means of production to the working class so the people of ireland are no longer controlled by multinational corporations who dont care about anything other than money.we hope to educate people in the benefits of a socialist 32 county republic and help them make up their own mind,we do not belief in a parlimentary road to socialism,it is all about making the lifes of the working people of ireland as best as possible.we are no 'trendies' like those 'socialist' hippy parties who do it to safe mother earth and because its cool.its about giving the people of ireland of any class,religion and creed a voice.i could send you info if you like...yours , R

shoutman

Rossibaby wrote: »

hi dan,i am about to join RSYM,the republican socialist youth movement.they are an excellent option with great polotics if you are inclined to believe in left-wing ideas.the goals of the party is to achieve a united ireland with the working people of catholics and protestants uniting under common ground which effect their community aswell as giving the means of production to the working class so the people of ireland are no longer controlled by multinational corporations who dont care about anything other than money.we hope to educate people in the benefits of a socialist 32 county republic and help them make up their own mind,we do not belief in a parlimentary road to socialism,it is all about making the lifes of the working people of ireland as best as possible.we are no 'trendies' like those 'socialist' hippy parties who do it to safe mother earth and because its cool.its about giving the people of ireland of any class,religion and creed a voice.i could send you info if you like...yours , R

Hopefully the RSYM can sort out the education system also, the teaching of our primary language, English, in our schools is a disaster.....

Rossibaby

and btw take people's advice here and do not join one just like that.read up,form opinions of your own and then allign with the party that represents your goals and ideas.i educated myself and followed irsp polotics for over a year and only now am i about to join.never be pressured into anything as it can have bad effects on your life...dont be embarressed about what you belief as every person with political beliefs faced hardship and abuse at some point.just read the paper,watch the news,and the internet is great for political history.join forums and just read,then when you feel confident contribute and ease yourself in.in know time you'll be an expert:-) hope this helps

Rossibaby

shoutman wrote: »

Hopefully the RSYM can sort out the education system also, the teaching of our primary language, English, in our schools is a disaster.....

what do you mean?

are you aware rsym is a youth movement and not involved in such serious matters as the educational system.all we can do is put pressure on those involved to hear public opinions.the public vote for their representatives and if they are letting you down you should make it known.the rsym would no doubt be happy to hear any queries you may have or suggestions and act accordingly

Rossibaby

and if that is a dig at my posts then how clever of u.did you come up with that by yourself lol i post here like i would on any site such as bebo/myspace etc...it is not a credible political site and accordingly i fail to see the necessity to post with perfect grammer lol im sur OP wnt mind me not forwarding a referenced piece complete with bibliography for my answers.im doing english in college and got straight A's thru secondary but thanks for the comment your wit boggles the mind lol

oscarBravo

Rossibaby wrote: »

im doing english in college and got straight A's thru secondary...

I kinda doubt it.

Let's get back on topic, folks.

DadaKopf

DadaKopf wrote: »

As someone said in a book I've been editing:


Anyway, Akrasia, it was public choice theory (based on the rational actor model) that developed theories about the 'irrationality of voting'. I think it was Kenneth Arrow's work.

In other words, and I think we agree here, the politics that bind people to a vote runs much deeper. The locus of power is outside the mere procedure of voting.

I think Downs came up with the "irrationality of voting" idea, might also have been Buchanan. Arrow is responsible for the "impossibility theorem" which deals with the problem in translating preferences with a voting systems.