The end of the Catholic Church in Ireland ??

MementoMori

Okay maybe the headline is a bit tabloidish but it was something I was thinking of recently.

Given the current age profile of the clergy in Ireland, how long can the Catholic Church continue as a working organisation in Ireland? Was wondering about this mainly on the basis of the following bits of data.

I was talking to my father recently about a retirement home for priests in our town. Anyway he was saying that the policy currently seems to be is that the priests only get to retire when they basically can't function anymore. He was on about a 82 year old priest who still says mass. To be honest doesn't seem fair really.

Was also thinking about the fact that a friend of my mother's who is a nun is the youngest nun in her convent (mid-sixties) and spends a lot of time minding the other older nuns (oldest is mid-ninties I think)

The only person I know anyway near my age who became a priest was a guy about ten years older than me who I heard has since quit the church to marry a nun.

Given all these factor, does the Church have any plans to deal with the fact that in anywhere from ten to thirty years there are not going to be anywhere near enough priests to say masses, funerals, weddings?

Also on a related note, does anyone know with the legal status regarding ownerships of convents etc is? i.e once all the remaining nuns have all passed away, who gets to decide what happens with a convent?

Any thoughts?

PDN

I'm not a Catholic, but I understand there is a ready supply of priests that can be shipped in from Poland & the Philippines etc. where there are plenty of students studying for the priesthood. I imagine that would be a bit of a culture shock for older Irish Catholics, but in principle it's no different from the days when Irish priests served parishes in lots of other countries.

As for convents, they would belong to the order to which the nuns belong (eg Carmelites etc.) so after the last nun in a particular convent dies the order would determine what happens next. You're talking some pretty valuable real estate, so a smart move would be to sell the property and use the money to pay the wages of all the polish priests.

philologos

There are still several trainee priests going through Maynooth every year, and I know of priests who are not all old, some are young also. I don't think the Catholic Church is going to die in Ireland any time soon.

Naikon

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think the Catholic Church is going to die in Ireland any time soon.

I very much doubt that to be quite honest.

CerebralCortex

I honestly and wholeheartedly hope that the Cstholic Church dies in Ireland. That is not meant to be an attack on Christianity it doesn't bother me either way how it goes in this country, but the Catholic Church is a particularily nasty one that should have no place in any civilised country. Of course that is purely an opinion based on my experiences of its manipulating ways.

wolfsbane

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I honestly and wholeheartedly hope that the Cstholic Church dies in Ireland. That is not meant to be an attack on Christianity it doesn't bother me either way how it goes in this country, but the Catholic Church is a particularily nasty one that should have no place in any civilised country. Of course that is purely an opinion based on my experiences of its manipulating ways.

Some would say your wish is fulfilled here:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=17&version=50

Note the political reaction to religious abuse: 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

The precise identity of this Babylon is debated, but historically the Reformed churches saw her as the RCC.

robindch

MementoMori wrote: »

Given the current age profile of the clergy in Ireland, how long can the Catholic Church continue as a working organisation in Ireland?

The figures are not looking good for the religious in Ireland.

In 1991, the census recorded 9,067 working in "religious occupations", in 1996, that had declined to 6,548. By 2002, that had declined again to 3,977 and in 2006, to 3,902 (of whom only around 900 are under 45 years old). I don't know whether the halt in the decline was caused by the increase in life expectancy that occurred during this period, or whether it was caused by a greater number of people holding such jobs (nationals or non-nationals). Female religious -- generally nuns, I'd assume -- are in an even more precarious situation with 800 in the country, of whom 80% are 45 years or older.

Census source data is here and here.

If this rate of decline continues, and a scope down the age profiles suggests it will, then I'd expect that the catholic church will be pretty much a spent force in Ireland within the next twenty to thirty years.

MementoMori wrote: »

Also on a related note, does anyone know with the legal status regarding ownerships of convents etc is? i.e once all the remaining nuns have all passed away, who gets to decide what happens with a convent?

I don't believe there's any fixed way of doing these things, but I understand that typically, the property and assets either revert to the order (if one still exists and wants the assets or property), or else, it reverts to the local bishop.

I have heard of no cases (but I'm sure there must have been some) where the property or assets have been, for example, auctioned and the proceeds passed onto local schools or hospitals.

Mrs OBumble

What's starting to happen in Ireland now is simply a repeat of what has happened in most other western countries over the last 20 years. There's a well established model of rationalising services, looking at what jobs priests are doing and vs which ones need priests and which can be filled by other people.

The process outlined here (convenient that the Irish Times should have an article today) is but one of the steps:
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0204/1201903425065.html

The main thing is that lay people simply have to step up and take the responsibility that they should have had all along. This has happened in various countries before (think places where missionary priests were expelled due to wars etc) - God has a remarkable capacity to provide the people who a community needs, provided the community is open to recognising his/her actions.

Of course this does have to be accompanied by educating lay people, and I'd say that the Irish church is perhaps a bit behind in this respect.

Importing priests from Africa and Asia isn't really an option: the ratio of priests:people in these country is vastly smaller than it is in the west, so it would be vastly unfair, as well as culturally difficult, to do this.

As to what happens to property: this depends on the rules of the particular order (ie "brand") of nuns etc. Some are centrally run, and when the order decided to close a particular house, the property is sold and the proceeds are used to fund whatever other work they're doing (eg in Africa or Asia). Some are local, and the property reverts to the local bishop. Overseas, there are many examples of religious orders setting up trust funds etc, so that their work is continued by lay people even after the people from the order are too old to continue it.

Exciting times that we live in, aye!

Michael G

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I honestly and wholeheartedly hope that the Catholic Church dies in Ireland.

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you, if you actually want it to die out. Up to about 30 years ago there were huge numbers of nominal Catholics, practising in deference to social pressures, and there were priests and religious to serve them. The aftermath of Vatican II in Ireland allowed many priests, religious and lay people to water down their religion to a point where it lost all vitality. The Church is slimming down to those who have faith and conviction, as opposed to a superficial allegiance (something Pope Benedict himself has suggested is a healthy thing), and the same is happening to those who are now becoming priests. The Church in future will have little social or political influence (which I assume is what you would like to happen), but will be a lot healthier.

I can't see the big orders of nuns surviving or recovering. The Presentation and Mercy orders, the biggest, were nineteenth-century foundations providing schools and hospitals for the poor. The state does that now, so they have no real point any more except in marginal work with the extremely poor and needy. In Africa especially, where there is little or no public provision for health or education, these orders are thriving.

But the smaller orders of nuns, those whose main work is prayer and contemplation, are healthy enough and seem to have a secure future.

Mr. Incognito

The polish people are keeping quite a few parishes alive. Personally I think there will always be some presence but it should never be allowed interfere and dominate as it did in the past. Absolute power curropts absolutely.

Húrin

The Catholic Church will always exist here but will probably exist as a significant minority, rather than a dominant majority faith.

seamus

PDN wrote: »

As for convents, they would belong to the order to which the nuns belong (eg Carmelites etc.) so after the last nun in a particular convent dies the order would determine what happens next. You're talking some pretty valuable real estate, so a smart move would be to sell the property and use the money to pay the wages of all the polish priests.

The nuns in most places have actually taken the initiative in this respect. Rather than banging about some big old halls getting older and more increpid, many convents have sold off the bulk of their land in exchange for modern homes rebuilt on the land and enough cash to pay for their own care until they're gone. Our Lady's in Terenure is a good example of this. And they're dead right I say - if the nunnery is to be closed, then why let the land just pass away into the order's hands? Why not pay for the care of the nuns who've looked after the land for the last 50 years?

Nunneries are probably the most doomed of all of the religious institutions, primarily due to the massive leap in women's rights over the last 30-50 years. Even some established nuns in their 40's and 50's jumped ship when they saw what the world had to offer them, I know three personally.

IMO, the Catholic Church as it was fifty years ago, is already dead in Ireland. The church doesn't really resemble anything like the "purity" stated in doctrine and while the upper echelons are still firmly rooted in the past, making public comments again condoms, for example, the priests on the ground and the local churches have taken a far more flexible approach to dealing with their parishoners. They're willing to discuss all of these taboos such as per-marital sex and contraception because they understand that society has gone beyond these concepts, so to continue preaching them would just further alienate their parishes.

Raiser

I'd like to pledge my full support to this very worthy cause.

Young Catholic

You might need to watch this video material
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZrX5qu4gM
This is a very good resource where people can read up on matters of doctrine and catechism
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/

Halfdog

Young Catholic wrote: »

You might need to watch this video material
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZrX5qu4gM
This is a very good resource where people can read up on matters of doctrine and catechism
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/

Most of us know already about Catholicism without having to look up resources, We had it beaten into us at school without choice. Many of us lived through corporal punishment. Im glad to see the back of it in this country.

robindch

Young Catholic wrote: »

You might need to watch this video material
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZrX5qu4gM

From which:

Bishop Williamson wrote:

Two and two are four. Well, yes, of course they are, but they're also five. It's more creative. It's more broad-minded. It's more free [...] They're also fifteen, and they're five million. Do you see the creative extension and possibilities of refusing to be imprisoned by the narrow-mindedness of "two and two are four"?

'nuf said.

Cantab.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

That is not meant to be an attack on Christianity it doesn't bother me either way how it goes in this country, but the Catholic Church is a particularily nasty one that should have no place in any civilised country.

"I'm not racist, but..."

Cantab.

Raiser wrote: »

I'd like to pledge my full support to this very worthy cause.

Catholicism isn't going to go away you know (despite what you enjoy reading about in the Sindo)

JC 2K3

Young Catholic wrote: »

You might need to watch this video material
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZrX5qu4gM

Was that supposed to be an abstract, surreal comedy, or am I just getting confused by the music, the fact he's spouting gibberish and the fact he sounds like John Clease?

robindch

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Was that supposed to be an abstract, surreal comedy, or am I just getting confused by the music, the fact he's spouting gibberish and the fact he sounds like John Clease?

Funny, I noticed that too. As the sketch wore on, the more and more he sounded like a religious version of Basil Fawlty.

Great stuff!

CerebralCortex

Cantab. wrote: »

"I'm not racist, but..."

Well I am I have a distaste for those of Catholic heritage including myself and of those in my family. From almost 20 years of putting up Christian Catholic lunacy I have no problem saying that.

PDN

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Well I am I have a distaste for those of Catholic heritage including myself and of those in my family. From almost 20 years of putting up Christian Catholic lunacy I have no problem saying that.

You have a distaste for yourself?

CerebralCortex

PDN wrote: »

You have a distaste for yourself?

Yes that stupid part of me that was a good little catholic who hadn't the balls to reject it all, when he in his heart it was just completely wrong.

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Yes that stupid part of me that was a good little catholic who hadn't the balls to reject it all, when he in his heart it was just completely wrong.

You're obviously very bitter about the Catholic Church and I'm sorry you feel that way. What about it bothers you so much? I could guess but I'm not going to put words in your mouth.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

You're obviously very bitter about the Catholic Church and I'm sorry you feel that way. What about it bothers you so much? I could guess but I'm not going to put words in your mouth.

Its greedy, oppressive, hateful, clearly psychotic, it meddles and worst of all it recruits. A good example of the impression I have of the catholic church is the young boy forced to take the name Mary for his confirmation by his lovely Irish mammy (the boy in question is not me I chose William).
This is all compounded by the fact that I had to go to a catholic school :mad: and by the fact that I'm a complete atheist.

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Its greedy, oppressive, hateful, clearly psychotic, it meddles and worst of all it recruits.

Don't you think you're exaggerating wildly there? I don't see the Church as greedy. I've never heard our local priest asking for more money from the parishioners despite falling Mass attendances. The Church was oppressive under Bishop McQuaid but you can hardly say that now. And where do you get the idea that the Church (in general) is hateful and psychotic? Can you back that up? The Church meddles? You mean they dare speak the truth when it comes to same-sex "marriage" and abortion etc?

To be honest your hate sounds a bit irrational.

djpbarry

kelly1 wrote: »

You mean they dare speak the truth when it comes to same-sex "marriage" and abortion etc?

Your use of inverted commas tells me all I need to know about this "truth".

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Don't you think you're exaggerating wildly there? I don't see the Church as greedy.

Well of course you don't your a devout Catholic. But humor me and have a look at this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City
I don't think I'm exaggerating, I take this quite seriously.

kelly1 wrote: »

I've never heard our local priest asking for more money from the parishioners despite falling Mass attendances. The Church was oppressive under Bishop McQuaid but you can hardly say that now.
And where do you get the idea that the Church (in general) is hateful and psychotic? Can you back that up?

I guess in there lust for power and dominion over the minds of people throughout the world and there relentless efforts to spread the mind virus that is religion. Don't get me started on the whole priest thing, celibacy is imho a human rights violation.

kelly1 wrote: »

The Church meddles? You mean they dare speak the truth when it comes to same-sex "marriage" and abortion etc?

What truth have they spoken about these issues? I'm curious. Most arguments you pose to back up what the church/and you believe is the truth on these issues are pointless because I'm an atheist.

kelly1 wrote: »

To be honest your hate sounds a bit irrational.

It seems I've offended you?

kelly1

djpbarry wrote: »

Your use of inverted commas tells me all I need to know about this "truth".

In the eyes of God it's not marriage. As St. Paul said homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Mt 19:4 Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.

Male and Female, not male and male or female and female.

The world is far too tolerant of sin and tries to make sin legitimate. What a sorry world we live in.

bus77

CerebralCortex wrote: »

A good example of the impression I have of the catholic church is the young boy forced to take the name Mary for his confirmation by his lovely Irish mammy.

That's just funny to me. Reminds me of ''A Boy named Sue''. The guy in question probably just laughs about this now.

CaptainNemo

I don't think there's anything irrational about hating the Catholic Church, they have probably been responsible for as much evil as good in the world. Personally I don't hate the Church but I regard it as misguided and unnecessary. I would never argue against anyone who hated it though. That reaction is necessary too - righteous anger is a purifying force.

Atheism is a rational and consistent position but I feel it leaves an important part of us unfulfilled since it explicitly denies something that I believe to be self-evident but unprovable.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

In the eyes of God it's not marriage. As St. Paul said homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Male and Female, not male and male or female and female.

The world is far too tolerant of sin and tries to make sin legitimate. What a sorry world we live in.

That means nothing to us we neither believe in god or st paul (whoever that is) and we shouldn't have to.

kelly1 wrote: »

Male and Female, not male and male or female and female.

What you say to a fellow RCC practitioner who was gay? You do realise people are born that way?

CerebralCortex

CaptainNemo wrote: »

I don't think there's anything irrational about hating the Catholic Church, they have probably been responsible for as much evil as good in the world. Personally I don't hate the Church but I regard it as misguided and unnecessary. I would never argue against anyone who hated it though. That reaction is necessary too - righteous anger is a purifying force.

Atheism is a rational and consistent position but I feel it leaves an important part of us unfulfilled since it explicitly denies something that I believe to be self-evident but unprovable.

Just on the off chance are you confusing atheism for nihilism?

cornbb

As much as I'd like to see the catholic church die out in Ireland I don't think it'll happen very soon. The clergy still have a hold on the boards of management of primary schools and hospitals nationwide, which I think is one of the most shameful aspects of our supposedly multicultural society today. Parents will continue to send little Johnny and Mary for baptism and communion, not because they are devout Catholics or even because they believe in god, but so their kids will fit in. And don't tell me they have the choice to send their kids to a non-catholic school, because in most parts of Ireland they simply don't.

My parents would have liked to raise me as an atheist but did not have the realistic option to do so for fear of making us pariahs in one of the most conservative parts of rural Ireland. Many parents of the current generation will feel obliged to do the same. Same goes for the churches cultural grip over the other major milestones of a person's life: birth, marriage and death.

So that's why the catholic church in Ireland won't die out any time soon. At present, one must still effectively opt out of being a catholic. Until our state-run schools become secular, as they should be, people will just end up practicing catholocism by default, or because the establishment makes it difficult to opt out.

CaptainNemo

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Just on the off chance are you confusing atheism for nihilism?

No not at all, I know the difference! Or at least I think I do - why do you ask?

CerebralCortex

cornbb wrote: »

As much as I'd like to see the catholic church die out in Ireland I don't think it'll happen very soon. The clergy still have a hold on the boards of management of primary schools and hospitals nationwide, which I think is one of the most shameful aspects of our supposedly multicultural society today. Parents will continue to send little Johnny and Mary for baptism and communion, not because they are devout Catholics or even because they believe in god, but so their kids will fit in. And don't tell me they have the choice to send their kids to a non-catholic school, because in most parts of Ireland they simply don't....

You listening Kelly1 this describes what I meant when I said the recruit.

CaptainNemo

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Just on the off chance are you confusing atheism for nihilism?

I considered myself atheist for a number of years. Rationally and morally it's an unassailable position. The only thing I found "missing" from it was a framework for understanding the nature of consciousness and personal evolution. Phrases like that are without meaning in an atheistic, scientific perspective but that doesn't mean that they are without value for us irrational, only partially scientific apes!

djpbarry

kelly1 wrote: »

...where do you get the idea that the Church (in general) is hateful...

kelly1 wrote: »

Male and Female, not male and male or female and female.

The world is far too tolerant of sin and tries to make sin legitimate.

Being born with slightly different urges to the majority is "sinful"? I rest my case.

CerebralCortex

CaptainNemo wrote: »

No not at all, I know the difference! Or at least I think I do - why do you ask?

Well just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I have no belief system I just like to assert that.

CaptainNemo

djpbarry wrote: »

Being born with slightly different urges to the majority is "sinful"? I rest my case.

The whole homosexuality thing is a gigantic red herring and one of the reasons the Catholic Church has done so much evil is through allowing itself to become so obsessed with sex and repression.

The whole question is simply irrelevant in my opinion.

cornbb

CaptainNemo wrote: »

The whole homosexuality thing is a gigantic red herring and one of the reasons the Catholic Church has done so much evil is through allowing itself to become so obsessed with sex and repression.

The whole question is simply irrelevant in my opinion.

I don't think its irrelevant at all in that its a primary representative example of the wrongful/sinful/evil/oppressive/whatever you want to call it attitude of the church.

On the question of belief systems/morality of atheists - many religious folk are under the impression that atheists must suffer some sort of spiritual or moral void in their lives. This is not the case at all. The "gap" left in one's life from lack of spirituality, if you want to call it that, is filled through education in the fields of philosophy and science. A strong sense of morality is naturally present in anyone who has had a good upbringing (not necessarily a Catholic one) and while its basic rules are loosely similar to basic christian ones (thou shalt not kill) it can do away with those ridiculous ones that have come about through indoctrination and theocracy (homosexuality is evil).

Logic is key to everything - unlike the influence of a supposed god, we can see its influence in everything, everyone and every action in the universe. Even the absence of logic is logically explained through science: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

What you say to a fellow RCC practitioner who was gay? You do realise people are born that way?

Nobody has found a gay gene. What would I say? I wouldn't say anything unless I was asked for my opinion and then I would say that homosexual acts are sinful.

cornbb wrote: »

As much as I'd like to see the catholic church die out in Ireland I don't think it'll happen very soon. The clergy still have a hold on the boards of management of primary schools and hospitals nationwide, which I think is one of the most shameful aspects of our supposedly multicultural society today.

The government is to blame for the lack of state-run schools so why blame the Church. And would you expect the Church to support secular schools and why shouldn't Catholics have Catholic schools?

cornbb wrote: »

Parents will continue to send little Johnny and Mary for baptism and communion, not because they are devout Catholics or even because they believe in god, but so their kids will fit in. And don't tell me they have the choice to send their kids to a non-catholic school, because in most parts of Ireland they simply don't.

Are you blaming the Church for this?

djpbarry wrote: »

Being born with slightly different urges to the majority is "sinful"? I rest my case.

OK so you don't believe the word of God. That's your business.

CaptainNemo wrote: »

The whole homosexuality thing is a gigantic red herring and one of the reasons the Catholic Church has done so much evil is through allowing itself to become so obsessed with sex and repression.

The Church is not obsessed with sex but it is very aware that the sins of the flesh are by far the most most attractive and the most dangerous to our salvation. Sex within marriage is good and healthy.

kelly1

cornbb wrote: »

A strong sense of morality is naturally present in anyone who has had a good upbringing (not necessarily a Catholic one) and while its basic rules are loosely similar to basic christian ones (thou shalt not kill) it can do away with those ridiculous ones that have come about through indoctrination and theocracy (homosexuality is evil).

If you did actually have a good sense of morality, you would condemn buggery, fisting, feltching and other disgusting sexual acts! The homosexual lifestyle mostly involves one night stands - not many homosexuals are in long term relationships in fact.

seamus

kelly1 wrote: »

Nobody has found a gay gene.

They haven't found a heterosexual gene either. So how do you know that heterosexuality is the "right way"? And "Because God says so" isn't an answer.

cornbb

kelly1 wrote: »

The government is to blame for the lack of state-run schools so why blame the Church. And would you expect the Church to support secular schools and why shouldn't Catholics have Catholic schools?

I would lay blame at the feet of both the church and the state. They were once a far more integrated pair of bodies after all. And of course I wouldn't expect the church to support secular schools. Quite the opposite - its not their place to do so. I would expect the state to run the state schools, if parents wish their children to have a catholic education they should be required to teach them at home, send them to Sunday school or send them to a private school in order to do so, as is the case in most other civilised nations.

Are you blaming the Church for this?

Yes, whom else would I blame for the churches policy of recruiting infants into their ranks before they even have a chance to decide to do what is best for them?

Again, I don't care if someone wants to be a catholic but they should proactively seek out to become a catholic, rather then being effectively forced into it and then having to opt out of it later in life.

The Church is not obsessed with sex but it is very aware that the sins of the flesh are by far the most most attractive and the most dangerous to our salvation.

I feel sorry for anyone who has been brainwashed into thinking that consenting adults, gay or straight, engaging in one of the most natural acts of mankind, are dirty or wrong.

cornbb

kelly1 wrote: »

If you did actually have a good sense of morality, you would condemn buggery, fisting, feltching and other disgusting sexual acts! The homosexual lifestyle mostly involves one night stands - not many homosexuals are in long term relationships in fact.

Why all the anger? Why can't you live and let live? You are not obliged to like what other people get up to, you don't have to watch it, why does it disgust you? What have they done to you? Why does Jesus preach love but the church preach hatred?

kelly1

seamus wrote: »

They haven't found a heterosexual gene either. So how do you know that heterosexuality is the "right way"? And "Because God says so" isn't an answer.

If we were all homosexual, we'd have no human race, would we! A peg fits into a hole. Peg and peg or hole and hole doesn't fit (unless you use an unnatural hole or peg). People are so incredibly blind to sin. Where do we draw the line? Will people start justifying bestiality or sexual relations with a parent of sibling or child? Why not polygamy. Why can't I marry a sheep? Why stop at homosexuality? It's total lunacy!

cornbb

kelly1 wrote: »

If we were all homosexual, we'd have no human race, would we! A peg fits into a hole. Peg and peg or hole and hole doesn't fit (unless you use an unnatural hole or peg). People are so incredibly blind to sin. Where do we draw the line? Will people start justifying bestiality or sexual relations with a parent of sibling or child? Why not polygamy. Why can't I marry a sheep? Why stop at homosexuality? It's total lunacy!

"Sin" is pure fantasy, sin is something that was invented by a group of men in the last few thousand years. Your belief that homosexuality is a sin causes no good in the world, it incites hatred and ignorance. Homosexuality is different. That is all. Murder, rape, incest, theft etc all hurt people and cause harm to society. What harm does homosexuality cause? I'm talking about harm in reality, harm done to third parties, not some made-up harm done to those who are merely offended by it. The human race will survive regardless of homosexuality, don't you worry about that.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

If we were all homosexual, we'd have no human race, would we! A peg fits into a hole. Peg and peg or hole and hole doesn't fit (unless you use an unnatural hole or peg). People are so incredibly blind to sin. Where do we draw the line? Will people start justifying bestiality or sexual relations with a parent of sibling or child? Why not polygamy. Why can't I marry a sheep? Why stop at homosexuality? It's total lunacy!

This post is total lunacy. Seriously what age are you? Have you ever been lucky enough to have fallen in love with somebody? Now imagine that somebody is the same sex as you. How on earth does that lead to justifying bestiality or sexual relations with a parent of sibling or child? By the way I've read and its not unusual that it is natural for men to be polygamous just look at the Arabic culture or the Mormons(I think).

kelly1

cornbb wrote: »

Why all the anger? Why can't you live and let live? You are not obliged to like what other people get up to, you don't have to watch it, why does it disgust you? What have they done to you? Why does Jesus preach love but the church preach hatred?

I don't hate anyone. I don't go around telling others how to live. I tried watching Brokeback Mountain once and I had to turn it off, I felt nauseous. The Church does not preach hatred and it's wrong of you to say so. It teaches that we should hate sin and love the sinner. We're all created in the image of God and many of us have fallen from grace through sin. I would, given the chance, encourage anyone to turn away from sin and back to God.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

...I tried watching Brokeback Mountain once and I had to turn it off, I felt nauseous....

Oh well all is forgiven .