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The end of the Catholic Church in Ireland ??

  • 02-02-2008 10:26PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,492 ✭✭✭


    Okay maybe the headline is a bit tabloidish but it was something I was thinking of recently.

    Given the current age profile of the clergy in Ireland, how long can the Catholic Church continue as a working organisation in Ireland? Was wondering about this mainly on the basis of the following bits of data.

    I was talking to my father recently about a retirement home for priests in our town. Anyway he was saying that the policy currently seems to be is that the priests only get to retire when they basically can't function anymore. He was on about a 82 year old priest who still says mass. To be honest doesn't seem fair really.

    Was also thinking about the fact that a friend of my mother's who is a nun is the youngest nun in her convent (mid-sixties) and spends a lot of time minding the other older nuns (oldest is mid-ninties I think)

    The only person I know anyway near my age who became a priest was a guy about ten years older than me who I heard has since quit the church to marry a nun.

    Given all these factor, does the Church have any plans to deal with the fact that in anywhere from ten to thirty years there are not going to be anywhere near enough priests to say masses, funerals, weddings?

    Also on a related note, does anyone know with the legal status regarding ownerships of convents etc is? i.e once all the remaining nuns have all passed away, who gets to decide what happens with a convent?

    Any thoughts?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    I'm not a Catholic, but I understand there is a ready supply of priests that can be shipped in from Poland & the Philippines etc. where there are plenty of students studying for the priesthood. I imagine that would be a bit of a culture shock for older Irish Catholics, but in principle it's no different from the days when Irish priests served parishes in lots of other countries.

    As for convents, they would belong to the order to which the nuns belong (eg Carmelites etc.) so after the last nun in a particular convent dies the order would determine what happens next. You're talking some pretty valuable real estate, so a smart move would be to sell the property and use the money to pay the wages of all the polish priests. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    There are still several trainee priests going through Maynooth every year, and I know of priests who are not all old, some are young also. I don't think the Catholic Church is going to die in Ireland any time soon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't think the Catholic Church is going to die in Ireland any time soon.

    I very much doubt that to be quite honest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    I honestly and wholeheartedly hope that the Cstholic Church dies in Ireland. That is not meant to be an attack on Christianity it doesn't bother me either way how it goes in this country, but the Catholic Church is a particularily nasty one that should have no place in any civilised country. Of course that is purely an opinion based on my experiences of its manipulating ways.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    I honestly and wholeheartedly hope that the Cstholic Church dies in Ireland. That is not meant to be an attack on Christianity it doesn't bother me either way how it goes in this country, but the Catholic Church is a particularily nasty one that should have no place in any civilised country. Of course that is purely an opinion based on my experiences of its manipulating ways.
    Some would say your wish is fulfilled here: :D
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=17&version=50

    Note the political reaction to religious abuse: 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

    The precise identity of this Babylon is debated, but historically the Reformed churches saw her as the RCC.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Given the current age profile of the clergy in Ireland, how long can the Catholic Church continue as a working organisation in Ireland?
    The figures are not looking good for the religious in Ireland.

    In 1991, the census recorded 9,067 working in "religious occupations", in 1996, that had declined to 6,548. By 2002, that had declined again to 3,977 and in 2006, to 3,902 (of whom only around 900 are under 45 years old). I don't know whether the halt in the decline was caused by the increase in life expectancy that occurred during this period, or whether it was caused by a greater number of people holding such jobs (nationals or non-nationals). Female religious -- generally nuns, I'd assume -- are in an even more precarious situation with 800 in the country, of whom 80% are 45 years or older.

    Census source data is here and here.

    If this rate of decline continues, and a scope down the age profiles suggests it will, then I'd expect that the catholic church will be pretty much a spent force in Ireland within the next twenty to thirty years.
    Also on a related note, does anyone know with the legal status regarding ownerships of convents etc is? i.e once all the remaining nuns have all passed away, who gets to decide what happens with a convent?
    I don't believe there's any fixed way of doing these things, but I understand that typically, the property and assets either revert to the order (if one still exists and wants the assets or property), or else, it reverts to the local bishop.

    I have heard of no cases (but I'm sure there must have been some) where the property or assets have been, for example, auctioned and the proceeds passed onto local schools or hospitals.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,482 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    What's starting to happen in Ireland now is simply a repeat of what has happened in most other western countries over the last 20 years. There's a well established model of rationalising services, looking at what jobs priests are doing and vs which ones need priests and which can be filled by other people.

    The process outlined here (convenient that the Irish Times should have an article today) is but one of the steps:
    http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0204/1201903425065.html

    The main thing is that lay people simply have to step up and take the responsibility that they should have had all along. This has happened in various countries before (think places where missionary priests were expelled due to wars etc) - God has a remarkable capacity to provide the people who a community needs, provided the community is open to recognising his/her actions.

    Of course this does have to be accompanied by educating lay people, and I'd say that the Irish church is perhaps a bit behind in this respect.

    Importing priests from Africa and Asia isn't really an option: the ratio of priests:people in these country is vastly smaller than it is in the west, so it would be vastly unfair, as well as culturally difficult, to do this.

    As to what happens to property: this depends on the rules of the particular order (ie "brand") of nuns etc. Some are centrally run, and when the order decided to close a particular house, the property is sold and the proceeds are used to fund whatever other work they're doing (eg in Africa or Asia). Some are local, and the property reverts to the local bishop. Overseas, there are many examples of religious orders setting up trust funds etc, so that their work is continued by lay people even after the people from the order are too old to continue it.

    Exciting times that we live in, aye!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Michael G


    I honestly and wholeheartedly hope that the Catholic Church dies in Ireland.
    I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you, if you actually want it to die out. Up to about 30 years ago there were huge numbers of nominal Catholics, practising in deference to social pressures, and there were priests and religious to serve them. The aftermath of Vatican II in Ireland allowed many priests, religious and lay people to water down their religion to a point where it lost all vitality. The Church is slimming down to those who have faith and conviction, as opposed to a superficial allegiance (something Pope Benedict himself has suggested is a healthy thing), and the same is happening to those who are now becoming priests. The Church in future will have little social or political influence (which I assume is what you would like to happen), but will be a lot healthier.

    I can't see the big orders of nuns surviving or recovering. The Presentation and Mercy orders, the biggest, were nineteenth-century foundations providing schools and hospitals for the poor. The state does that now, so they have no real point any more except in marginal work with the extremely poor and needy. In Africa especially, where there is little or no public provision for health or education, these orders are thriving.

    But the smaller orders of nuns, those whose main work is prayer and contemplation, are healthy enough and seem to have a secure future.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    The polish people are keeping quite a few parishes alive. Personally I think there will always be some presence but it should never be allowed interfere and dominate as it did in the past. Absolute power curropts absolutely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    The Catholic Church will always exist here but will probably exist as a significant minority, rather than a dominant majority faith.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    PDN wrote: »
    As for convents, they would belong to the order to which the nuns belong (eg Carmelites etc.) so after the last nun in a particular convent dies the order would determine what happens next. You're talking some pretty valuable real estate, so a smart move would be to sell the property and use the money to pay the wages of all the polish priests. :)
    The nuns in most places have actually taken the initiative in this respect. Rather than banging about some big old halls getting older and more increpid, many convents have sold off the bulk of their land in exchange for modern homes rebuilt on the land and enough cash to pay for their own care until they're gone. Our Lady's in Terenure is a good example of this. And they're dead right I say - if the nunnery is to be closed, then why let the land just pass away into the order's hands? Why not pay for the care of the nuns who've looked after the land for the last 50 years?

    Nunneries are probably the most doomed of all of the religious institutions, primarily due to the massive leap in women's rights over the last 30-50 years. Even some established nuns in their 40's and 50's jumped ship when they saw what the world had to offer them, I know three personally.

    IMO, the Catholic Church as it was fifty years ago, is already dead in Ireland. The church doesn't really resemble anything like the "purity" stated in doctrine and while the upper echelons are still firmly rooted in the past, making public comments again condoms, for example, the priests on the ground and the local churches have taken a far more flexible approach to dealing with their parishoners. They're willing to discuss all of these taboos such as per-marital sex and contraception because they understand that society has gone beyond these concepts, so to continue preaching them would just further alienate their parishes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭Raiser


    I'd like to pledge my full support to this very worthy cause.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 Young Catholic


    You might need to watch this video material
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZrX5qu4gM
    This is a very good resource where people can read up on matters of doctrine and catechism
    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 87 ✭✭Halfdog


    You might need to watch this video material
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZrX5qu4gM
    This is a very good resource where people can read up on matters of doctrine and catechism
    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/
    Most of us know already about Catholicism without having to look up resources, We had it beaten into us at school without choice. Many of us lived through corporal punishment. Im glad to see the back of it in this country.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    You might need to watch this video material
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZrX5qu4gM
    From which:
    Two and two are four. Well, yes, of course they are, but they're also five. It's more creative. It's more broad-minded. It's more free [...] They're also fifteen, and they're five million. Do you see the creative extension and possibilities of refusing to be imprisoned by the narrow-mindedness of "two and two are four"?
    'nuf said.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭Cantab.


    That is not meant to be an attack on Christianity it doesn't bother me either way how it goes in this country, but the Catholic Church is a particularily nasty one that should have no place in any civilised country.

    "I'm not racist, but..."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭Cantab.


    Raiser wrote: »
    I'd like to pledge my full support to this very worthy cause.

    Catholicism isn't going to go away you know (despite what you enjoy reading about in the Sindo)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    You might need to watch this video material
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZrX5qu4gM
    Was that supposed to be an abstract, surreal comedy, or am I just getting confused by the music, the fact he's spouting gibberish and the fact he sounds like John Clease?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Was that supposed to be an abstract, surreal comedy, or am I just getting confused by the music, the fact he's spouting gibberish and the fact he sounds like John Clease?
    Funny, I noticed that too. As the sketch wore on, the more and more he sounded like a religious version of Basil Fawlty.

    Great stuff!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Cantab. wrote: »
    "I'm not racist, but..."

    Well I am I have a distaste for those of Catholic heritage including myself and of those in my family. From almost 20 years of putting up Christian Catholic lunacy I have no problem saying that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Well I am I have a distaste for those of Catholic heritage including myself and of those in my family. From almost 20 years of putting up Christian Catholic lunacy I have no problem saying that.

    You have a distaste for yourself?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    PDN wrote: »
    You have a distaste for yourself?

    Yes that stupid part of me that was a good little catholic who hadn't the balls to reject it all, when he in his heart it was just completely wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Yes that stupid part of me that was a good little catholic who hadn't the balls to reject it all, when he in his heart it was just completely wrong.
    You're obviously very bitter about the Catholic Church and I'm sorry you feel that way. What about it bothers you so much? I could guess but I'm not going to put words in your mouth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You're obviously very bitter about the Catholic Church and I'm sorry you feel that way. What about it bothers you so much? I could guess but I'm not going to put words in your mouth.

    Its greedy, oppressive, hateful, clearly psychotic, it meddles and worst of all it recruits. A good example of the impression I have of the catholic church is the young boy forced to take the name Mary for his confirmation by his lovely Irish mammy (the boy in question is not me I chose William).
    This is all compounded by the fact that I had to go to a catholic school :mad: and by the fact that I'm a complete atheist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Its greedy, oppressive, hateful, clearly psychotic, it meddles and worst of all it recruits.
    Don't you think you're exaggerating wildly there? I don't see the Church as greedy. I've never heard our local priest asking for more money from the parishioners despite falling Mass attendances. The Church was oppressive under Bishop McQuaid but you can hardly say that now. And where do you get the idea that the Church (in general) is hateful and psychotic? Can you back that up? The Church meddles? You mean they dare speak the truth when it comes to same-sex "marriage" and abortion etc?

    To be honest your hate sounds a bit irrational.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You mean they dare speak the truth when it comes to same-sex "marriage" and abortion etc?
    Your use of inverted commas tells me all I need to know about this "truth".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Don't you think you're exaggerating wildly there? I don't see the Church as greedy.

    Well of course you don't your a devout Catholic. But humor me and have a look at this.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City
    I don't think I'm exaggerating, I take this quite seriously.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    I've never heard our local priest asking for more money from the parishioners despite falling Mass attendances. The Church was oppressive under Bishop McQuaid but you can hardly say that now.
    And where do you get the idea that the Church (in general) is hateful and psychotic? Can you back that up?

    I guess in there lust for power and dominion over the minds of people throughout the world and there relentless efforts to spread the mind virus that is religion. Don't get me started on the whole priest thing, celibacy is imho a human rights violation.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    The Church meddles? You mean they dare speak the truth when it comes to same-sex "marriage" and abortion etc?

    What truth have they spoken about these issues? I'm curious. Most arguments you pose to back up what the church/and you believe is the truth on these issues are pointless because I'm an atheist.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    To be honest your hate sounds a bit irrational.

    It seems I've offended you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Your use of inverted commas tells me all I need to know about this "truth".
    In the eyes of God it's not marriage. As St. Paul said homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    Mt 19:4 Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
    Male and Female, not male and male or female and female.

    The world is far too tolerant of sin and tries to make sin legitimate. What a sorry world we live in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭bus77


    A good example of the impression I have of the catholic church is the young boy forced to take the name Mary for his confirmation by his lovely Irish mammy.

    That's just funny to me. Reminds me of ''A Boy named Sue''. The guy in question probably just laughs about this now.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭CaptainNemo


    I don't think there's anything irrational about hating the Catholic Church, they have probably been responsible for as much evil as good in the world. Personally I don't hate the Church but I regard it as misguided and unnecessary. I would never argue against anyone who hated it though. That reaction is necessary too - righteous anger is a purifying force.

    Atheism is a rational and consistent position but I feel it leaves an important part of us unfulfilled since it explicitly denies something that I believe to be self-evident but unprovable.


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