Atheism doubts?

Whispered

Hi, I was just wondering if any of the hardened athiests here have ever been in a situation which caused them to wonder - "what if I'm wrong", have you ever witnessed anything which caused you to question your stance on the whole life after death, existance of God etc. Please dont reply with reasons god can't exist etc, I'm aware of your reasoning but if you have ever questioned yourself I'd be interested to know what was the situation and how did you rectify it in your mind.

Thanks

H

Beruthiel

Nope. That's never happened to me.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

once or twice, but I sobered up.

Whispered

MordÜff wrote: »

once or twice, but I sobered up.

LOL

The reason I ask is because some of the things here have caused me to question myself, I still believe in some things which athiests would scoff at but most of them have been questioned (to the point of me loosing sleep, you should be ashamed, I need my beauty sleep!). I was just wondering if it ever happens the other way around. Obviously not from posts here, but from life situations.

toiletduck

helena.ryan wrote: »

Hi, I was just wondering if any of the hardened athiests here have ever been in a situation which caused them to wonder - "what if I'm wrong", have you ever witnessed anything which caused you to question your stance on the whole life after death, existance of God etc.

Nope. I sometimes think about it would be like if God(s) did exit, but it's usually just down to boredom. I don't think I've ever seriously believed in any of that in 6 or 7 years and nothing causes me to question that.

Zombrex

helena.ryan wrote: »

Hi, I was just wondering if any of the hardened athiests here have ever been in a situation which caused them to wonder - "what if I'm wrong"

I think "what if I'm wrong" about everything all the time. Its a healthy to be skeptical of ones own opinions and views.

toiletduck

Wicknight wrote: »

I think "what if I'm wrong" about everything all the time. Its a healthy to be skeptical of ones own opinions and views.

Totally. That's why I read lot's of differing viewpoints*, not just confined to religion though.


*Alex Jones ftw and ultimate entertainment.

Myksyk

It's difficult Helena to imagine that scenario. I'm generalising here but most atheists arrive at their position through being convinced by a wide variety of ideas in science which nudge, and sometimes shove, God/gods out of the picture.

The decision is rarely an emotional one (although it may have emotional consequences).

Being convinced for example of the evidence for evolution by natural selection has dramatic, unarguable implications for our idea of place in the universe and the nature of any relationship with a potential creator - for me it definitely rules out the idea of an interventionist, personal God. It doesn't naturally lead to ruling out a Deistic position (the idea of an initial starter) but that has far less implications for daily life.

helena.ryan

helena.ryan wrote: »

Hi, I was just wondering if any of the hardened athiests here have ever been in a situation which caused them to wonder - "what if I'm wrong", have you ever witnessed anything which caused you to question your stance on the whole life after death, existance of God etc. Please dont reply with reasons god can't exist etc, I'm aware of your reasoning but if you have ever questioned yourself I'd be interested to know what was the situation and how did you rectify it in your mind.

Thanks

H

i don't really think about the existence of gods except once in a while to think things would be so much easier if i worshiped one
but easier != best

Zombrex

toiletduck wrote: »

not just confined to religion though.

Its a good point. Dawkin's was once asked "What if you are wrong" by a girl in an audience of one of his lectures. He responded what if he was wrong about what? God, Zeus, Thor, Mohammad etc etc.

When people ask "What if you are wrong" they tend to actually mean "What if you are wrong about your rejection of my specific beliefs"

Dades

I have never seen, read or experienced anything that would make me seriously consider a god of any religion exists.

On the other hand I have had experiences that have made me desperately want one to exist - or even just to believe one exists. I find those experiences telling in themselves.

robindch

I'd imagine that I question whether I'm wrong about the whole thing about as often as most christians seriously question themselves as to whether the islamics have it all right, and vice versa.

If anything ever turned up that suggested that my beliefs were mistaken -- Jesus materializing on the White House lawn, for example, to raise a few of the Iraqi dead and confirm that the Vatican is exactly what it says it is -- then I'd be quite happy to admit that I got it completely wrong. I just think that it's really quite unlikely that this is ever going to happen and my beliefs are correspondingly confident.

And in any case, I'm not quite sure that I can imagine very many things that would convince me that christianity (or whatever) is the right one. The line about the White House lawn might be facetious, but it does suggest that trying to confirm the truth of a religious proposition is not easy.

But, as Dades points out, not believing that something is true, is quite different from occasionally wanting it to be true.

redfacedbear

bluewolf wrote: »

easier != best

Likewise, I can conceive of situations where belief could be comforting - after a bereavment, for example, I would imagine it might be comforting to think that your loved one (or part of them) has gone on to something better. However just because you'd like something to be does not make it so.

wishing != being

Thankfully the closest I've come to this kind of wishful thinking is trying to use Jedi powers to bring the Remote Control to me rather than get up off my lazy arse to get it

Zillah

Every now and then I have a thought which causes me a moment later to say "Oh thats interesting, if I were a less rational/level-headed person I could have very easily fallen into that trap, how enlightening."

Which is to say, no, I've never had doubts, but I have encountered the sort of situations that I think could cause people to believe in magic.

Whispered

Hey, thanks for the replies but I dont mean just the existance of God, I also mean belief in the existance of life after death, telekenisis (sp?) and other things which would be considered unexplainable and unlikely.

helena.ryan

helena.ryan wrote: »

Hey, thanks for the replies but I dont mean just the existance of God, I also mean belief in the existance of life after death, telekenisis (sp?) and other things which would be considered unexplainable and unlikely.

telekenesis? eh... no.

Zombrex

helena.ryan wrote: »

Hey, thanks for the replies but I dont mean just the existance of God, I also mean belief in the existance of life after death, telekenisis (sp?) and other things which would be considered unexplainable and unlikely.

Well you see you run into a problem there.

If they are actually "unexplained" then what are we being wrong about?

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

Hey, thanks for the replies but I dont mean just the existance of God, I also mean belief in the existance of life after death, telekenisis (sp?) and other things which would be considered unexplainable and unlikely.

I assumed with the title "Atheism doubts?" we were solely talking about the beliefs atheists have in common!

Dave!

I haven't had any doubts per se for a few years now... The closest I come is frustration really. I have on occassion thought things like "well the universe/cosmos can't just not exist, and then all of a sudden EXIST!", and that slope would eventually lead to deism. It's quite frustrating to now know. I manage to calm myself by remembering that prior to Darwin there was no explaination for the majesty and complexity of nature, except for that god created it. Now there is! And it's the same with most complicated phenomena. I'm confident that this is just another one that requires alot of time and alot of smart people to understand.

LaVidaLoca

Ive certainly never seen any evidence that he exists. I think the only way to beleive he exists is to force yourself to ignore the overwhelming evidence all around you that he doesn't.

That said, I am still prone to beleiving in the supernatural: i.e. stick me in a dark house with no electricty in the countryside on my own, and I might get a little scared of ghosts.

But it passes.

Mr. Incognito

My dad died two weeks ago. i believe his energy has been absorbed into the universe somewhere and he is watching over me, but God. No.

Dades

Very sorry to hear that, SetantaL. Tough times for you and yours.

Whispered

bluewolf wrote: »

telekenesis? eh... no.

Very helpful - thanks

Whispered

Wicknight wrote: »

Well you see you run into a problem there.

If they are actually "unexplained" then what are we being wrong about?

No need to pick apart my words, you know what I mean. I am not saying you are wrong - I am asking if you ever doubted.

Whispered

Dades wrote: »

I assumed with the title "Atheism doubts?" we were solely talking about the beliefs atheists have in common!

Well we all know it's a big conspiricy I mean the general dis-belief in certain things.

Whispered

SetantaL wrote: »

My dad died two weeks ago. i believe his energy has been absorbed into the universe somewhere and he is watching over me, but God. No.

Very sorry to hear that Setanta.

Can someone explain to me how to quote multiple people in one post?

aidan24326

bluewolf wrote:

telekenesis? eh... no.

helena.ryan wrote: »

Very helpful - thanks

The notion of telekinesis is worthless until someone can provide evidence, real evidence that it can be done. Right now there is no evidence for it whatsoever. Anyone who claims or has claimed they can do it is either a liar/fake/con artist/loony or whatever you're having. That's not to say that it could never be done, just that nobody has ever demonstrated this ability beyond fakery and hocus pocus stuff, and if they have I'd love to know about it.

As for having doubts about religion, I'd have to say no, none at all. Like Robindch said I would need some seriously convincing evidence to change my mind at this stage, and that's extremely unlikely to happen. As for wondering if maybe, just maybe I'm wrong, on the issue of a personal interventionist god I'd be as certain as it gets that I'm right, as for the less personal type of god (created the universe, doesn't intervene etc) I'd allow some possibility of that. Though I think such an entity would be nothing at all like the current primitive human conception of a god and would likely be incomprehensible to us.

toiletduck

helena.ryan wrote: »

Well we all know it's a big conspiricy I mean the general dis-belief in certain things.

I'm open to "certain things", as long as there's evidence!

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how to quote multiple people in one post?

In every post that has some text you want to quote click the button to the right of the usual "Quote" button. This turns orange when you click on it. Then click "Post Reply" at the bottom, and every post that you clicked the first button beside is quoted in your draft post.

Enjoy!

Hivemind187

helena.ryan wrote: »

Hi, I was just wondering if any of the hardened athiests here have ever been in a situation which caused them to wonder - "what if I'm wrong", have you ever witnessed anything which caused you to question your stance on the whole life after death, existance of God etc. Please dont reply with reasons god can't exist etc, I'm aware of your reasoning but if you have ever questioned yourself I'd be interested to know what was the situation and how did you rectify it in your mind.

Thanks

H

Of course I have. And the reasonning out, research, rationalisation and eventual comprehension of what really happened or what is most likely to have happened leads me, unerringly, back to the original position. That there is no god and no afterlife.

MooseJam

never had any doubts, never will have any

Zombrex

helena.ryan wrote: »

No need to pick apart my words, you know what I mean.

Well no actually I don't.

If something is unexplained then what am I doubting? The unexplainidness of it?

stevejazzx

Well Helena, one would probably seem to be better off in thinking that something was a primary mover as otherwise we appear resolve to a mathamatical explanation for a begining which appears unsatisfactory because it lies outside the direct comprehension of so many of us. What that means is that any hyothesis for a begining is extremely hard to grasp as it confilcts with the notion of infinite regress - so imagining a being whose essence lies outside our rules of physics seems to be the only answer. A being who, quite simply, is not and cannot be explained by using earthly concepts. Perfect! well then that's the answer?...except that now scientists are begining to realise how the universe may have rapidly expanded (big bang theory) and are essentially certain on how stars and planets are/were formed. Part of the mystery therefore is diminishing albit very gradually. The greatest mystery is a starting point in time...as we play the movie of the history of the universe in reverse, everything (the basic laws of nature) seem to operate until we reach that point of ultimate begining at which stage they appear to break down. Hawking reckons the universe might just 'be' existing in respect of itself, self contained with no boundary for space time so no need to specify the behaviour of the boundary, hence no need to appeal for a primary mover. That's theoretical physics. That answer leads the (most diffcult) question:
Why is there something rather than nothing?
Here's an intersting article, well worth reading:
http://www.innerexplorations.com/chtheomortext/origin.htm

Now we are faced with a universe so big and so old that it defies our imaginations to grasp it. It appears to have begun 15 billion years ago. Our galaxy, alone, has some 100 billion stars, and it is just one of perhaps a 100 billion galaxies, and this immense universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate.

So we can look at it two ways:

1. Allow our awestruck imagination to postualte Gods becasue of our own shortcomings and inabilities in explaining our origins

2. Persevere with the scientifc method of slowly uncovering the truth.

It's easy and comforting to imagine a benefactor but it's a lot more mature to accept that legends must stay buried and that human advancement must prosper, not superstition. There is not one proven psychic to date. James Randi has a million dollars waiting for one. But none materialise. Juri Geller fooled everyone bending spoons. He was a fraud. James Hidrick appeared to moved things with the power of his mind, fooled half the world but he was a fraud. Not one single midreader from here to hollywood has ever been vindicated in a controlled test. They are universally all frauds - at best exremely slef dellusional. There is no magic and anything that appears paranoral may very well turn out to be perinormal, something once considered outside the realm of human ability or experiecne but which is now understood as an effect or force of nature. Ultimatley everything will have an explanation but our brains might well evolve way beyond our current state and a thousand years from now we might have a completely new set of rules and way of thiniking about existence.

Red Hand

No. I have wanted there to be something at times in my life, but no-I grew out of belief in the supernatural a long while ago.

lookinforpicnic

No, in the same way I never doubt that gravity will just suddenly disappear and i'll jet off to space like Mario, be cool though... I'd love an afterlife.

stereoroid

Personally, I see atheism as a much simpler proposition than any religion or dogma, and being of an Engineering mindset (studying Structual Engineering), simpler = better. My atheism is not built on a foundation of something else that might be shaky, which is where doubt could come in: it is founded on the earth and the universe, not on anything built by people. It's the religions and dogmas that are built on shaky man-made foundations, and will not survive the ages.

That doesn't mean I'm dogmatic about it: I would reconsider my position in the light of new Evidence, which is where it helps to be clear about what Evidence is not:
- the Bible, Koran, or other works of Man are not Evidence;
- written history is not Evidence;
- things people say are not Evidence. People can, and do, say anything to back up their beliefs.
- no, not even if those people are "authority figures": who gave them that "authority"? That's right... people. They might claim divine authority, but on what... Evidence?

The word for all that man-made stuff is Testimony. It's not Evidence unless it stands up on its own, independent of a particular observer, independent of our wishes and needs. For example: once you account for your position on surface of the Earth, the stars look the same to all observers, and are essentially unchanged throughout human history. They were there long before us, and will be there long after we are all gone. That indicates the general standard of Evidence that would make me reconsider my position: it had better be good! :rolleyes:

lostexpectation

still get my head around this whole idea of actually believing in god, its following religion is what people do, I dropped that no doubt.

Zamboni

None so far, though if the Hubble picks up an image of a long haired bearded dude with puppet strings attached to the Earth, I may doubt. :eek:

As for psychics, ghosts and suchlike, I think Derren Brown provides wonderful illustrations of the remarkable ability of the human mind to make mistakes.

Joe1919

Having the view "I might be wrong" is a very healthy view because you are still leaving the door open for new views and opinions. Why close your mind? Indeed, I would be completely in agreement with David Hume in describing myself as been too much of a sceptic to be a atheist.

I hate dogmatic and absolutist atheism as much as I hate dogmatic and absolutist religions.

We can never know for sure .We can only have our own opinions.

We still have to explain our own consciousness and give our lives some type of meaning, but doing this may not be in contradiction to atheism. Indeed we do transcend religion in most ways and most people, although they belong to a religious group, just get on with their lives. (This was one of Voltaire's themes in Candide)

I think some atheists fall into the trap of Reductionism (John Searle discusses some of this in his lecture at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3295448672203577230) in seeing all thought and mental phenomena completely in terms of the material and this can lead to confusion and the inability to distinguish between pleasure and happiness, good and bad, love and hate, etc.

I think Atheists can and should keep there minds open about everything and keep searching for meaning. ( I think the poet Thomas Hardy was a little like this, a sort of spiritual atheist or agnostic)
Being an Atheist does not necessarily mean being an Nihilist.

CerebralCortex

Joe1919 wrote: »

Having the view "I might be wrong" is a very healthy view because you are still leaving the door open for new views and opinions. Why close your mind? Indeed, I would be completely in agreement with David Hume in describing myself as been too much of a sceptic to be a atheist.

I hate dogmatic and absolutist atheism as much as I hate dogmatic and absolutist religions.

We can never know for sure .We can only have our own opinions.

We still have to explain our own consciousness and give our lives some type of meaning, but doing this may not be in contradiction to atheism. Indeed we do transcend religion in most ways and most people, although they belong to a religious group, just get on with their lives. (This was one of Voltaire's themes in Candide)

I think some atheists fall into the trap of Reductionism (John Searle discusses some of this in his lecture at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3295448672203577230) in seeing all thought and mental phenomena completely in terms of the material and this can lead to confusion and the inability to distinguish between pleasure and happiness, good and bad, love and hate, etc.

I think Atheists can and should keep there minds open about everything and keep searching for meaning. ( I think the poet Thomas Hardy was a little like this, a sort of spiritual atheist or agnostic)
Being an Atheist does not necessarily mean being an Nihilist.

Who are you trying to convince?

Dave!

What do you mean CerebralCortex?

CerebralCortex

DaveMcG wrote: »

What do you mean CerebralCortex?

I just think the post came of a little "have you thought about your beliefs really?". Its an atheist and agnostic forum.

ztoical

nope and I really did try when I was younger, went to mass, read the book, talked to the nuns and priests. Over the years I've made friends with people of all religions and faiths and I did the same with them, I asked questions, attended meetings/services/mass/insert whatever name you want for it and while I found them all to be interesting and I respected their choice in beliefs I couldn't force myself to believe something in my heart I knew to be untrue.

Wacker

I was once walking home from a friend's place baked out of my mind, and I had a really vivid premonition of spending the night in a cell. I figured that if that did end up happening, it would shake my lack of belief.
I got home fine. The end!

Whispered

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I just think the post came of a little "have you thought about your beliefs really?". Its an atheist and agnostic forum.

What do you mean?

Whispered

Wacker wrote: »

I was once walking home from a friend's place baked out of my mind, and I had a really vivid premonition of spending the night in a cell. I figured that if that did end up happening, it would shake my lack of belief.
I got home fine. The end!

CerebralCortex

helena.ryan wrote: »

What do you mean?

That wasn't directed at you Helena, maybe I just in a bad mood but joe1919's post is a bit preaching to the choir if you know what I mean. Of course being an atheist doesn't mean being a nihilist. I have a very open mind as an atheist far more I think than when I was a theist and I honestly believe atheists to be the most open minded because they continuosly question and depend on logic and reason. In my experience and opinion reasoning and logic knocks theism flat on its ass.

bogwalrus

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I just think the post came of a little "have you thought about your beliefs really?". Its an atheist and agnostic forum.

So an atheist or agnostic cant think about their beliefs? I think his point is fair, nice and philosophical.

someuser90

It would take a lot of credible evidence of supernatural events, for me to have doubts... and even then its so unlikely that said events would correspond to the opinions of the religious (idiots). It is equally likely that I would witness a flying pink unicorn, as it is likely that jebus or mohamed would appear.

RAmen.

CerebralCortex

bogwalrus wrote: »

So an atheist or agnostic cant think about their beliefs? I think his point is fair, nice and philosophical.

They sure can. I do all the time. It was nice and philosophical and at the time (as I said I was in a bad mood maybe) but it felt like wasted energy in a forum such as this. I apologise if it seems like I was attacking him or any other poster in this thread that wasn't my intent.

bogwalrus

i suppose for people who wouldnt normally post on this forum you have to take them with a pinch of salt as they like to get their views out not on just one topic but the whole idea of what atheism means to them. Like me a couple of weeks ago:D