Where to go with an invention?

unreggd

Dont laugh!

I have a cool idea for a new type of digital camera

But in general, if someone has an invention, where do they go with it???

Calina

Bank followed by patent office and then a little research into which camera manufacturer is most likely to be interested.

Ricky91t

dragons den or whatever that show is called
Supose you should email a few companies and see who gets back to you
Make sure you tell them you'll be asking other companies
Then they'll panick thinking someone else might get it
I have a strange feeling im very wrong but good luck

Calina

Patent it before you show it to anyone.

As for emailing companies, pointless unless you're emailing the right person. James Dyson *might* be interested given his history with washing machines and vacuum cleaners.

Fajitas!

Aye, patent is veeeeery important.

rymus

dont mind that.. show it to me before you go to all the bother of patenting it and I'll tell you if it's a good idea or not. You know it makes sense.

Ricky91t

Well obviously i mean camera companies

Thirdfox

file for patent (worldwide ones cost quite a lot if I remember correctly)

If you don't and it becomes public knowledge then it's no longer patentable - anyone can use your idea freely.

Calina

Thirdfox wrote: »

file for patent (worldwide ones cost quite a lot if I remember correctly)

If you don't and it becomes public knowledge then it's no longer patentable - anyone can use your idea freely.

which is why I said bank first: need money to file for patent.

AnCatDubh

hmmnnnnn.... patents are definitely a good idea (perhaps essential as Calina suggests) but a caveat in terms of some advice a good friend who's into creating/inventing new products gave me on the subject - it can be a costly business creating, maintaining and subsequently enforcing your patent. Well, doing it all proper and right like. And then if its a successful product, ie. if its worth counterfeiting, some bugger probably located in a far eastern country (i'm being careful not to stereotype to a specific country), will go and counterfeit/copy it anyway.

The horrible thing for him is - production in those non stereotypical countries used to be sh*te but of recent times there are two categories - 1) those counterfeiters that produce bad quality bad product and 2) those counterfeiters which replicate to the same or better quality product which you have laboured to invent. 50/50 split apparently. And by the way, the laws that you would hope would protect your intellectual copyright and product design just don't exist in these countries.

So like i said at the start of the post, patents are definitely a good idea and perhaps even essential as has been mentioned by other posters. They will protect you against the 'honest' companies of the world in countries with a modern legal system. I think patents maybe effective if you are planning on having the bright idea and making your money from selling just that..., the idea - then allow someone else worry about how the heck they might stop counterfeiters benefiting from the world wanting your idea in product form.

Hope we see you on the cover of fortune magazine or at least Professional Photographer!

Cheers.

CraggyIslander

For initial contacts a well formulated non-disclosure agreement will be enough. Especially if you state 'patent pending' while you're drafting up your patent application. No need to immediately fork over cash.

Also talk to Enterprise Ireland (or the dublin enterprise board), everything is confidential and they can put you in touch with possible interested parties (again with non-disclose agreement). They can even provide grants.

Both are notoriously slow to deal with, but persistence pays off if your idea is good enough

xshayx

Yes, Enterprise Ireland would be a great start, advice, grants, introductions....

mathias

For initial contacts a well formulated non-disclosure agreement will be enough. Especially if you state 'patent pending' while you're drafting up your patent application. No need to immediately fork over cash.

Apologies , but this could not be more wrong , a sure fire way to get your idea stolen , especially by large companies , who will have resources to look up prior art and see if its filed or not , if its not filed , its not patent pending and fair game.

Write up an abstract of the invention , if its good and your sure its not been done before then borrow the money ( about 13K ) and file for the patent. You will need a good IP lawyer , who will convert your descroption to legalese and file for you. Then bring it to companies , and try to get funding for manufacture or whatever.

Do not discuss details of the idea in any electronic form that might be stored , or post any information on the idea until the application is filed or it becomes invalid. ( legally that is the same as publishing )

Prior art is any published description of the device or a similar device that was published on any date prior to your filing and invalidates any patent you may have or wish to get.

Financially , the patent that will mean most to you is a US patent , Irish and EU ones not really being worth the cost of filing , which is considerable.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/design/index.html

unreggd

Cheers

Yeah im not sure wha to do

I defo need a patent but its a bit much to pay if nothin comes of it, but its nothin if somethin DOES come of it

I have another one i'd like to pose

If i wrote a description about it and emailed it to myself, would this work as some sort of proof if a company tried to do me over?

Fajitas!

Have you ran the idea by anyone?

unreggd

Nope, it hasnt left my head!

RCNPhotos

Shall I start the guessing? A.....dedicated digital pinhole camera?

whyulittle

unreggd wrote: »

If i wrote a description about it and emailed it to myself, would this work as some sort of proof if a company tried to do me over?

I think the standard thing to do is send it to yourself by registered post. If anything is disputed, you have the sealed envelope with all the details of when it was sent and received.

Fajitas!

whyulittle wrote: »

I think the standard thing to do is send it to yourself by registered post. If anything is disputed, you have the sealed envelope with all the details of when it was sent and received.

Yep!

unreggd

Fajitas! wrote: »

Yep!

cool! I think €3 is a lot better than 13k

Fajitas!

You're still going to have to patent it though

unreggd

fvck it......

mathias

If i wrote a description about it and emailed it to myself, would this work as some sort of proof if a company tried to do me over?

Thats not good enough , it wont protect you against someone stealing the idea and wont protect you , emails are not valid legally , addresses can be spoofed and so on ,

Regd post is good for songs and the like , more copyright than patent , it wont do to protect an invention , if its good and your confident , get the money and file , no other option will do.

the_manchine

Did a bit of patent work in the past and I have to agree with the people who have been advising caution.

Prior Art is the biggie, if you're serious about it would be worth getting a proper search done (patent attorney) to see if you're in with a shout at all - you'd be surprised at the things that have already been patented! The search isn't cheap though. It depends where you want the idea to be protected.

Just to note, there is a difference between something that is novel and patentable and something that is a new design. From what I saw, registering a design is next to useless as even a small change is often considered to be a new design.

If you do go down the patent process then it can cost an arm and a leg. Not sure if it's changed since I worked in the area, but at the time there was no such thing as a universal patent. More often than not you'd have to apply to individual countries for a patent in each one and pay all the associated fees. There were some blanket patents, like one for the EU, but not many.

As a general rule money counts for an awful lot in this game. The stuff I worked on used to be largely pharmaceutical and I saw several examples where company A was dragging out an objection to company B simply to delay them bringing a product to market. It came down to who could afford to pay for a longer period. Not a problem for multi-nationals, but it would be for me!

Clseeper

Exactly like Manchine said. There are a lot of patent out there which are not in use in the market. Many of the multinationals and large companies actually file protective patents just to protect their market. I.e. canon or Nikon may already have your idea patented or protected to stop other companies disrupting the market. They see more stability/profit in the current environment but may come back to them later.

I think this is your first start. Doesn't google have some sort of patent search function?

CraggyIslander

Apologies, I certainly didnt mean to suggest going to the big boys or VC's with just an NDA. Meant it for the likes of business advisors, enterprise ireland, etc, as you will want to bounce your idea off some other people.

Ran a software development company for a few years and we used NDA's for demo's etc. Then again we had a demo ready and didnt need to divulge any of the underlying code or design. Software patents are probably even murkier than design ones though. Our company fell on its arse as we decided to do everything ourselves (2men, 4years) and we were very late to market and big boys had jumped in the same niche.

There are very few ideas that nobody else has thought off or will think off in near future. After receiving your self addressed register post should definately talk to enterprise ireland to get some idea of business viability and apply for a feasability grant which you can use to do patent research etc

Mellor

If it surely is a new idea, best bet is to sell it to canon or similar.
The profit will be less, but so will the investment.

If you were to do R&D yourself, by the time you finished, it could be out of date/useless

daedalus2097

whyulittle wrote: »

I think the standard thing to do is send it to yourself by registered post. If anything is disputed, you have the sealed envelope with all the details of when it was sent and received.

Yup, that's the way to go alright. Anyone can forge an email datestamp to read whatever they want.

Edit: Like others have said though, that's really only copyright and won't do if someone comes up with different drawings for a similar device etc.

Saruman

OP is this just an idea of something that would be cool.. but you have no way of making it yourself? If you had say €100,000 could you personally build one or is that beyond your capability?
If so then as others have suggested, go with the idea to a manufacturer and see if you can get something out of it but you would need to have a real technical\manufacture grasp of what you want and how to make it. Otherwise you just have a cool idea that would be great in a piece of fiction like a book.

I do not think Arthur C Clarke could have patented the idea of orbiting satellites in his novels and made money when they started being sent up.


My dad had an idea once he sent off to Virgin. It was vending machines in airports selling deodorant wipes. A few years later these did appear in some airports i have been through. Now there was nothing technical about that, and he did not get anywhere. It was just an idea he floated.

He did in fact invent the Ram Bar back in the 80's or late 70's. Ran his business for 10 years before he went bust (not good at the business end!). He could not afford the patent payments so now anyone can make a Ram Bar. You know, the metal bars that you put in a driveway or in front of a shop window to prevent someone driving a car through, or taking your car from your driveway. He came up with that idea and the locking mechanism thing that fits onto the ground. I was very young so can not remember all the details. Even such a widely used design today makes him no money.

Gavin

Pay no attention to all the patent talk. Go to Enterprise Ireland, or the IDA. Ask to speak to an advisor. They will tell you the correct path to follow.

Obtaining a patent as has been described is a costly business and frankly ridiculous to attempt without any verification of the marketability of the invention.

Saruman

What verb said, best advice so far i think.

Dades

Saruman wrote: »

What very said, best advice so far i think.

+1

I think it would be ridiculous to spend a small fortune either patenting, or just on a search without first talk to someone with knowledge of how real people get things started. Somebody in Enterprise Ireland or wherever isn't going to rob your idea.

Best of luck. PM me if you want a second opinion.

unklerosco

Saruman wrote: »

He did in fact invent the Ram Bar back in the 80's or late 70's. Ran his business for 10 years before he went bust (not good at the business end!). He could not afford the patent payments so now anyone can make a Ram Bar. You know, the metal bars that you put in a driveway or in front of a shop window to prevent someone driving a car through, or taking your car from your driveway. He came up with that idea and the locking mechanism thing that fits onto the ground. I was very young so can not remember all the details. Even such a widely used design today makes him no money.

Thats mental....

ShakeyBlakey

you can get a U.S.provisional patent for $210 U.S.! about €150, this gives you 1 year to evaluate your idea and see if big or small companies are interested. But you definately need it patented before u show it to anybody. This is the best option, YOU NEED TO PATENT IT FIRST
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/provapp.htm
this link gives u all the info you need, best of luck.
I was naieve a few years ago, went to a big company with an idea, they took the details said they'd get back to me, they didnt, a year later the product was on shelves made by another company which was another company owned by the parent company of the one i went to.
I have a little experience with patents and rip-off invention companies, avoid them!!
Download the application form http://www.uspto.gov/web/forms/sb0016.pdf
write a description, draw a diagram, file it, otherwise you have no protection

Thirdfox

Well an US patent wouldn't be much good here in Europe - the OP would probably want an Irish or worldwide patent (if it's really such a marketable idea).

ShakeyBlakey

Thirdfox wrote: »

Well an US patent wouldn't be much good here in Europe - the OP would probably want an Irish or worldwide patent (if it's really such a marketable idea).

A U.S. patent is the most recognised patent in the world, anybody steals the idea, drag their ass into a u.s. court.

Saruman

unklerosco wrote: »

Thats mental....

Yes, it nearly bankrupt us and we were in debt for years. Its funny, in the end he licensed or whatever the term is a larger rival security company to install it. That company provided the money to keep the patent going, however they eventually went bust themselves so i think that was the end of it.

I remember watching the late late inventor show years ago and someone had a cattle guard with a ram bar build into it. You know the metal bars on the ground to prevent cattle getting in? My dad said.. "I invented that, well the ram bar itself" and he gave me the story then.
I remember the ram bar of course but had not realised he had invented the thing.

A U.S. patent is the most recognised patent in the world, anybody steals the idea, drag their ass into a u.s. court.

could you not only do that if someone in europe stole the idea and then sold it in the US? As long as it stayed in Europe then im not sure there is any legal reason they would have to show up for a court case.

Thirdfox

ShakeyBlakey wrote: »

A U.S. patent is the most recognised patent in the world, anybody steals the idea, drag their ass into a u.s. court.

An US patent would only be recognised in the US jurisdiction. In Europe the patent does not apply and you can copy ideas. That is why big companies apply for international patents. Dragging their ass into an US court will get you nowhere if they were manufacturing outside of the US and not selling to the US.

Of course - if anyone can point out a valid legal source stating otherwise I'm very happy to change my opinion.

ShakeyBlakey

Listen No Big Or Small Company Will Try Steal From A U.s. Patent, Submit The Idea To The American Branch Of The Company(ie: Canon Us, Nikon Us, Etc) And The U.s. Is The Biggest Market(or Was?).
This Is Only For Evaluative Purposes, It Gives Peace Of Mind For 12 Months Only!, After That Patent It Properly Or Forget It.

Thirdfox

Please be civil and write properly in this forum or you may be mistaken for a troll.

And you haven't actually answered the substance of either Saruman or my point of the American courts being powerless over a foreign jurisdiction.

Have a nice day!

ShakeyBlakey

Thirdfox wrote: »

Please be civil and write properly in this forum or you may be mistaken for a troll.

And you haven't actually answered the substance of either Saruman or my point of the American courts being powerless over a foreign jurisdiction.

Have a nice day!

the guy has an idea, he wants to know if its a winner or not, its expensive to find out, ie. patents etc, i'm offering him my advice, get a cheap provisional patent, approach the american division of any manufacturer with the idea, they'll want it or not, if they steal it and start manufacturing it in europe, asia, katmandoo, its protected as it was submitted in the u.s. , u understand now??????, DONT SUBMIT IT OUTSIDE THE U.S., tell me 1 camera manufacturer that doesnt have a branch inside the u.s.???????
have a nice day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Calina

ShakeyBlakey wrote: »

Listen No Big Or Small Company Will Try Steal From A U.s. Patent, Submit The Idea To The American Branch Of The Company(ie: Canon Us, Nikon Us, Etc) And The U.s. Is The Biggest Market(or Was?).
This Is Only For Evaluative Purposes, It Gives Peace Of Mind For 12 Months Only!, After That Patent It Properly Or Forget It.

The EU is the biggest trading block in the world and has been for some time. Regardless of the advice you are given, a US patent is zero protection against copying outside the US. Obviously the copier won't be able to sell in US unless of course the idea is not fully patented in the US.

The US is fighting a major battle on IP rights. I strongly suspect that if no one ever stole from a US patent, they wouldn't be doing this. So please don't be naive.

ShakeyBlakey

the very way patents work is so they can be stolen by big business or govts, and mostly over time they are!!, but their all we got!!, if anybody has a better solution for the guy, give it to him and get off my back, i posted to help him and all i get now is contradictions and strife.


ok original poster get a full 1 year worldwide patent about €20,000-€30,000 and see if it's a goer???, if its not just remember that you tried while your paying back the money....................
Is that better now boys?????

Calina

I don't think this thread belongs in Photography.

As for you, ShakeyBlakey, is it too much for you to understand that I think your attitude is not helpful even despite you having some valid comments to make?

ShakeyBlakey

Calina wrote: »

I don't think this thread belongs in Photography.

As for you, ShakeyBlakey, is it too much for you to understand that I think your attitude is not helpful even despite you having some valid comments to make?

Maybe it doesnt belong in photography, but you should have said that at the start as you were the first to actually reply to it !, but he said he had an idea for a new digital camera, i didnt start the thread.
and i'm sorry if i offended anybody but i only tried to help the guy with my 2pence worth, then i get ppl on my back about this or that, so i went into defensive mode.
In my opinion the advice i gave is the best he's got so far, its his best option for small money and it does give some level of protection while he offers his idea to camera manufacturers.
Again i didnt come here looking for a fight and didnt mean to offend anybody.
Hope you all understand
CHEERS

sheesh

unreggd wrote: »

Cheers

Yeah im not sure wha to do

I defo need a patent but its a bit much to pay if nothin comes of it, but its nothin if somethin DOES come of it

I have another one i'd like to pose

If i wrote a description about it and emailed it to myself, would this work as some sort of proof if a company tried to do me over?

Email won't do as headers can be faked.
I think what you meant to do is show that you had the idea first. to do that you would have to mail it to yourself using registered post. this would only give you copyright of what you had written not protect your invention (as you cannot copyright an idea) for this you need a patent for more info look at the patents office website www.patents.ie there is loads of info there.

you need to look up the difference between patent and copyright. good luck

Ricky91t

ShakeyBlakey wrote: »

Maybe it doesnt belong in photography, but you should have said that at the start as you were the first to actually reply to it !, but he said he had an idea for a new digital camera, i didnt start the thread.
and i'm sorry if i offended anybody but i only tried to help the guy with my 2pence worth, then i get ppl on my back about this or that, so i went into defensive mode.
In my opinion the advice i gave is the best he's got so far, its his best option for small money and it does give some level of protection while he offers his idea to camera manufacturers.
Again i didnt come here looking for a fight and didnt mean to offend anybody.
Hope you all understand
CHEERS

Jesus will you take it easy you're only new here and you've made your point but theres no need to reply is huge font you can get your point across just as easy by writing it this way

Calina

ShakeyBlakey wrote: »

STICK BY ME AND I'LL STICK BY YOU, PICK ON ME AND I'LL PICK ON YOU.........

Yes I am new here, came to help:D, got a few class bullies picking on the new boy:(, so instead of running to the teacher or hiding in the corner, i tried to kick them in the goolies, i missed, but i'm back today with my big brothers doc martins on.......................:eek::eek::eek:..........haha

No one picked on you but your attitude was condescending and nasty. I'm watching to see if there's any improvement at all.

ricky - I wouldn't worry about the yelling for now.

ShakeyBlakey

Irish patent office
http://www.patentsoffice.ie/en/homepage.aspx

patent priority (for the boys)
If an application in respect of the same invention was filed up to 12 months earlier in either Ireland, the European Patent Office or a country that is a party to the Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property, the filing date of the earlier application becomes the "priority date" of the new application.

http://www.patentsoffice.ie/en/patents_priority.aspx

The filing of a U.S. provisional patent is still the cheapest option, will give patent priority provided the same idea hasnt been filed before.....


http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/notices/eledocumentexch.htm

On January 16, 2007, the United States Patent and Trademark Office, along with the European Patent Office (EPO), implemented a new service to allow certified copies of patent application priority documents to be exchanged between the two offices electronically. Priority documents have to be filed when applicants wish to claim an earlier application filing date in one patent office based on a prior filing in another. The new service, which is free of charge to applicants, is the result of a 2005 agreement between the USPTO and the European Patent Office. Priority document exchange will get underway between the USPTO and the Japan Patent Office (JPO) later this year. Information on how to use the system can be found below.

ShakeyBlakey

sheesh wrote: »

Email won't do as headers can be faked.
I think what you meant to do is show that you had the idea first. to do that you would have to mail it to yourself using registered post. this would only give you copyright of what you had written not protect your invention (as you cannot copyright an idea) for this you need a patent for more info look at the patents office website www.patents.ie there is loads of info there.

you need to look up the difference between patent and copyright. good luck

Sorry sheesh but i'm not picking on you but there's actually no info there mate......:o

Might be a good site/name to register though...........

Fajitas!

For CALINA (THE KNOW IT ALL,HAAAAAAAAA) and TURDFOX (the unqualified lawyer)

ShakeyBlakey, there's no need whatsoever for that kind of attitude. If you want to help, by all means, do. If you have a problem with a poster, report the post, and I'll see if it's out of line. I don't want any condescending remarks made on this forum.