sneaky speed trap

smemon

Was driving home as usual today along the M1, just coming out of dundalk heading north.

High up on the merging road (coming on to M1), there was a garda car parked on the side, sticking out a bit (half parked on kerb) with the driver door slightly open and something pointing out the window, looking down on passing traffic.

Assume it was a hairdryer. Thought this was very sneaky, seen as there's dozens of those designated garda ramps scattered all over the place :cool:

agent_smith

Is this a stretch of road notorious for boy racers or is it a stretch of road where a lot of accidents have and are occuring on a daily basis ?

AugustusMaximus

Put it on www.irishspeedtraps.com

smemon

agent_smith wrote: »

Is this a stretch of road notorious for boy racers or is it a stretch of road where a lot of accidents have and are occuring on a daily basis ?

I've never come across accidents on it myself, but you do get all the northeners bombing it down home.

It would have been literally impossible to detect the speed trap as the merging road has bushes/shrubs or whatever hiding it so no doubt they pulled a few guys, but why bother with all the 'garda only' ramps if they're not going to use them?

The reality is people start merging/switching lanes where this tap was, so speed would probably be slightly less than that on a straight stretch with no exits.

Also, if gardai are actually seen by drivers, they'll be more cautious certainly in the short term. By hiding out of sight i don't think it's doing much good.

Sandwich

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Put it on www.irishspeedtraps.com

Or better - dont. You might prevent a few people being caught.

Senna

Those dastardly coppers, parking where we don't expect them, what will they think of next.:rolleyes:

Gatster

Sandwich wrote: »

Or better - dont. You might prevent a few people being caught.

No, do put it up. Smacks of, as usual, meeting targets and nothing else. As the OP said, if he wanted to slow people down as opposed to just catching them, he should be more visible.

javaboy

Gatster wrote: »

No, do put it up. Smacks of, as usual, meeting targets and nothing else. As the OP said, if he wanted to slow people down as opposed to just catching them, he should be more visible.

If a speeder knows where all the cameras are they will just speed where they know there are none.

If the same speeder is caught by surprise a few times, they'll clock up the fines+points and maybe learn their lesson.

A mixture of both approaches is best.

astraboy

javaboy wrote: »

If a speeder knows where all the cameras are they will just speed where they know there are none.

If the same speeder is caught by surprise a few times, they'll clock up the fines+points and maybe learn their lesson.

A mixture of both approaches is best.

OR, and heres a thought, he could be out patrolling the M1 in his mondeo pulling over tailgater's, dangerous drivers, people hogging the overtaking lane. Hiding behind a bridge/tree/wall and sending out speeding tickets is lazy lazy policing and catching people on a relatively safe road more so. Yes I know "its the law" but the guy 5kph over the limit on the M1 getting a fine while the idiot driving dangerously below the limit smacks of lack of interest(or interest in fines whichever way you look at it!) by the authorities.

D_murph

Sandwich wrote: »

Or better - dont. You might prevent a few people being caught.

:rolleyes:. do put it up, starve the tax collectors

Seth Brundle

Sandwich wrote: »

Or better - dont. You might prevent a few people being caught.

That doesn't serve road safety. Visibility is key to crime prevention be it speeding or muggings. It should be about prevention not punishment!

Mylow

javaboy wrote: »

If a speeder knows where all the cameras are they will just speed where they know there are none.

If the same speeder is caught by surprise a few times, they'll clock up the fines+points and maybe learn their lesson.

A mixture of both approaches is best.

What lesson will they learn? That we shoot fish in a barrel. Its pretty well documented Motorways are safest roads.

Its a road with merging lanes, all traffic is going in same direction. You can turn off M1 and go over to Navan via Slane you can legally do 100km/h down there, good luck to anyone who can average 100k down that road. To me that is crazy limit and to then be pulling people for doing 130 on a safe motorway.

What happened to the publication of 600 accident blackspots and enforcement on them. At least up the north they publish camera locations

We all heard the claptrap from politicians....education was one of them, its all about enforcement, full stop. I have yet to hear of any schemes set-up to educate drivers caught for different driving offences. Here is link to education scheme operated by Thames Valley Police.

Whay are people pre-occupied with Nordie Drivers....its not as if Southern Drivers are perfect. At least when you go North of the border most people use lanes and roundabouts correctly. It amazing when you cross the border going South, drivers sitting in right hand lane, wont use left hand lane. The difference is up North Police will pull you for it, its possible to pick-up 6 points for that one...Driving Without Due care and Attention...though you would have to be very unlucky. They normally have a word in drivers ear, if they seem to take it on board they will leave it at that.

javaboy

Mylow wrote: »

What lesson will they learn? That we shoot fish in a barrel. Its pretty well documented Motorways are safest roads.

Its a road with merging lanes, all traffic is going in same direction. You can turn off M1 and go over to Navan via Slane you can legally do 100km/h down there, good luck to anyone who can average 100k down that road. To me that is crazy limit and to then be pulling people for doing 130 on a safe motorway.

What happened to the publication of 600 accident blackspots and enforcement on them. At least up the north they publish camera locations

We all heard the claptrap from politicians....education was one of them, its all about enforcement, full stop. I have yet to hear of any schemes set-up to educate drivers caught for different driving offences. Here is link to education scheme operated by Thames Valley Police.

Whay are people pre-occupied with Nordie Drivers....its not as if Southern Drivers are perfect. At least when you go North of the border most people use lanes and roundabouts correctly. It amazing when you cross the border going South, drivers sitting in right hand lane, wont use left hand lane. The difference is up North Police will pull you for it, its possible to pick-up 6 points for that one...Driving Without Due care and Attention...though you would have to be very unlucky. They normally have a word in drivers ear, if they seem to take it on board they will leave it at that.

I'm not suggesting that they shoot fish in a barrel. There should be a mix of fixed cameras for particular black spots, mobile gatsos which change location regularly and a lot more unmarked Gardai in something other than a Mondeo.

The fact is that most speeders know when and where they can speed and get away with it.

Senna

i'll probably get flamed for this, but here's my opinion;

I believe that its the same people who break the speed limit on motorways and dual carriageways that also break the speed limit on national roads. Its completely rubbish to say 'so what if i speed on motorways, i keep to every other speed limit, at all other times'
I believe these people will also speed or drive at 'excess speed' on lesser roads. So i have no sympathy for anyone caught speed, no mater what the road.

astraboy

Senna wrote: »

i'll probably get flamed for this, but here's my opinion;

I believe that its the same people who break the speed limit on motorways and dual carriageways that also break the speed limit on national roads. Its completely rubbish to say 'so what if i speed on motorways, i keep to every other speed limit, at all other times'
I believe these people will also speed or drive at 'excess speed' on lesser roads. So i have no sympathy for anyone caught speed, no mater what the road.

Are those people dangerous drivers though? Your making a far and sweeping generalization there really. Going over the speed limit, and driving too fast, are two completely different things.

Senna

astraboy wrote: »

Are those people dangerous drivers though?

Who? people who break speed limits? Well at a guess, your more likely to be involved in an accident when over the speed limit, rather than under it (opinion not fact). But what is a fact, is your accident over the speed limit will be worse than if under the speed limit.

astraboy wrote: »

Your making a far and sweeping generalization there really.

Yeah i know, as said at the top just an opinion.;)

astraboy wrote: »

Going over the speed limit, and driving too fast, are two completely different things.

Yes of course, you could be 'driving too fast' for the road, but still be under the limit.
But the alternative is we do away with speed limits, so why not just stick to them?

worded

Why do irishspeedtraps.com want my date of birth to get their download? - Thats a little too much info me thinks.
Whats their privacy policy?

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Put it on www.irishspeedtraps.com

I.S.T.

worded wrote: »

Why do irishspeedtraps.com want my date of birth to get their download? - Thats a little too much info me thinks.
Whats their privacy policy?

Many sites such as Google, Yahoo, Hotmail ask for date of birth on sign up, it is not unusual. An example of when we would use your date of birth is if you forgot your password and we needed to confirm your identity. In saying that there is no compulsion for you to provide your correct date of birth. If you don't want to disclose this information then simply fill in any random date. Your personal details are not disclosed to any third party, they are used for administration of your account.

I.S.T.

Senna wrote: »

i'll probably get flamed for this, but here's my opinion;

I believe that its the same people who break the speed limit on motorways and dual carriageways that also break the speed limit on national roads. Its completely rubbish to say 'so what if i speed on motorways, i keep to every other speed limit, at all other times'
I believe these people will also speed or drive at 'excess speed' on lesser roads. So i have no sympathy for anyone caught speed, no mater what the road.

What about the people who drive mostly on rural roads and rarely ever go near a motorway? They will never be caught for speeding with the current enforcement process.

It's ridiculous to concentrate speed checks on our safest roads before tackling the much higher accident rates on the rural roads.

Our man in Havana

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Many sites such as Google, Yahoo, Hotmail ask for date of birth on sign up, it is not unusual. An example of when we would use your date of birth is if you forgot your password and we needed to confirm your identity. In saying that there is no compulsion for you to provide your correct date of birth. If you don't want to disclose this information then simply fill in any random date. Your personal details are not disclosed to any third party, they are used for administration of your account.

Are you registered under the data protection act?

Senna

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

What about the people who drive mostly on rural roads and rarely ever go near a motorway? They will never be caught for speeding with the current enforcement process.

It's ridiculous to concentrate speed checks on our safest roads before tackling the much higher accident rates on the rural roads.

My argument was with people complaining about being done for speeding, no mater what the road.
I agree completely, i'd like to see more speed checks on rural roads too.
I live in Donegal, so i rarely drive on Motorways, all rural roads around here.
Which may mean we have more checks on minor roads, as they don't have as many of the 'easy targets' that would be around Dublin.

Kimbot

smemon wrote: »

Was driving home as usual today along the M1, just coming out of dundalk heading north.

High up on the merging road (coming on to M1), there was a garda car parked on the side, sticking out a bit (half parked on kerb) with the driver door slightly open and something pointing out the window, looking down on passing traffic.

Assume it was a hairdryer. Thought this was very sneaky, seen as there's dozens of those designated garda ramps scattered all over the place :cool:

There is a reason these are called speed "traps", and that is to catch stupid drivers that fail to abide by the law.
If you don't speed then you have nothing to worry about.

Sandwich

kbannon wrote: »

That doesn't serve road safety. Visibility is key to crime prevention be it speeding or muggings. It should be about prevention not punishment!

Think we kind of agree but disagree.

Visibility is the key. But visibilty of the average speed trap is very limited - a mile. But the 'visibility' a garda achieves by catching someone makes a far deeper and longer lasting impression - miles of road into the future.

Seth Brundle

If that was the case Sandwich, then tell me why the current practice hasn't worked that well?
Is it because exceeding the speed limit is not a significant factor in fatality stats?

bryanmurr

The ramps on the side of the motorways are high vis points where the huards park up at times. they arent used for speed checks. anyway if they were, ppl would just put the boot down after they passed it cos chances are there wouldnt be more guards around for another bit.

Seth Brundle

I drove up to Belfast on Monday. On my way up I passed a Gatso Van (with markings on side and rear doors wide open) around Banbridge. About five miles further ahead there was another one.

Our man in Havana

Those are normally DVLNI road tax evasion dectection vans.

Seth Brundle

I have seen them before alright but IIRC these said police (was overtaking cars when I passed them)

Sandwich

kbannon wrote: »

If that was the case Sandwich, then tell me why the current practice hasn't worked that well?
Is it because exceeding the speed limit is not a significant factor in fatality stats?

I think its because not enough people are being caught for speeding. The chances of being caught are just too low at the moment.

Oft quoted, but that doesnt decrease its valididy : the biggest road safety experiment ever done in this country was the introduction of penalty points. People feared the greater chance of paying a penalty(loss of licence) for speeding. They slowed down and less people died or were injured on the roads. When it was realised that the chances were still too low to be bothered about, people reverted to their old ways and accidents rose.

Not getting at you particularly kbannon since I dont know your back ground and you seem knowledgeable on many matters motoring, but could you tell me why there is such a discrepancy between the emphasis put on slower driving by road authorities all over the world, and the average driver (a complete dilletante on road matters other than the fact that he can control a car) who decides that the authorities do not know what they are talking about and that he knows better them.

astraboy

Sandwich wrote: »

I think its because not enough people are being caught for speeding. The chances of being caught are just too low at the moment.

Oft quoted, but that doesnt decrease its valididy : the biggest road safety experiment ever done in this country was the introduction of penalty points. People feared the greater chance of paying a penalty(loss of licence) for speeding. They slowed down and less people died or were injured on the roads. When it was realised that the chances were still too low to be bothered about, people reverted to their old ways and accidents rose.

Not getting at you particularly kbannon since I dont know your back ground and you seem knowledgeable on many matters motoring, but could you tell me why there is such a discrepancy between the emphasis put on slower driving by road authorities all over the world, and the average driver (a complete dilletante on road matters other than the fact that he can control a car) who decides that the authorities do not know what they are talking about and that he knows better them.

Sandwich, a complex one this! If I can address your 1st point first. Yes, there was an undeniable reduction in road deaths when the penalty points first came in. However I would wager it was far more then people just obeying the speed limits, but all the other ROTR as well. Also, if people are in fear of being caught doing something wrong, they will pay more attention to their driving, which I'm sure made a massive difference.

As for the second point, its not one factor really but many. People always think they are better drivers then they are. People also don't like being told what to do, human nature really. Also, unfortunately the Authorities do NOT always know what they are talking about, speed seems an easy target in regards to road safety and it looks great to have cops pulling people over and politicians waxing lyrical about how many people were prosecuted for speeding last year. However, and I am open to correction on this, road safety is a very complex issue. There is not one "Silver bullet" that will instantly reduce deaths or injuries. You need better roads, safer cars, better driver training and testing, proper and visible enforcement of traffic laws that allow prevention of accidents(I'm not talking about standing behind a bridge with a radar gun here either)

Honestly the only way to prevent road deaths with todays roads, cars and technology is to ban driving.

Seth Brundle

Sandwich wrote: »

I think its because not enough people are being caught for speeding. The chances of being caught are just too low at the moment.

Oft quoted, but that doesnt decrease its valididy : the biggest road safety experiment ever done in this country was the introduction of penalty points. People feared the greater chance of paying a penalty(loss of licence) for speeding. They slowed down and less people died or were injured on the roads. When it was realised that the chances were still too low to be bothered about, people reverted to their old ways and accidents rose.

Not getting at you particularly kbannon since I dont know your back ground and you seem knowledgeable on many matters motoring, but could you tell me why there is such a discrepancy between the emphasis put on slower driving by road authorities all over the world, and the average driver (a complete dilletante on road matters other than the fact that he can control a car) who decides that the authorities do not know what they are talking about and that he knows better them.

That doesn't answer my questions.
The current system, where most speed checks are done covertly to some extent, does not work given that fatalities continues. Is this because the process is ineffective or because there are other factors which simply aren't being tackled? going too fast in an urban area is much more dangerous than doing 50km/h over the limit on a motroway. Who is more likely to get caught? I exceed the speed limit on motorways most of the time.
Anyhow this argument has been done to death on boards and there are never any winners to the debate!

astraboy

kbannon wrote: »

That doesn't answer my questions.
The current system, where most speed checks are done covertly to some extent, does not work given that fatalities continues. Is this because the process is ineffective or because there are other factors which simply aren't being tackled? going too fast in an urban area is much more dangerous than doing 50km/h over the limit on a motroway. Who is more likely to get caught? I exceed the speed limit on motorways most of the time.
Anyhow this argument has been done to death on boards and there are never any winners to the debate!

If you read any of my previous posts on this forum you'd know I agree 100% with you! I was trying to answer Sandwich's Q's. I think most motorways suitable should have speed limits raised, or removed totally if the road/conditions allow. I often speed on national secondary roads when it is safe to do so as I have previously admitted. I don't blitz the limit BTW, but I choose my speed on the open road based on conditions, not on static speed signs.

Urban limits around residental areas are a different matter.

congo_90

Senna wrote: »

i'll probably get flamed for this, but here's my opinion;

I believe that its the same people who break the speed limit on motorways and dual carriageways that also break the speed limit on national roads. Its completely rubbish to say 'so what if i speed on motorways, i keep to every other speed limit, at all other times'
I believe these people will also speed or drive at 'excess speed' on lesser roads. So i have no sympathy for anyone caught speed, no mater what the road.

+1

astraboy

Great contribution. :rolleyes:

Bearcat

the bast@rds had a mobile speed trap on the M50 North bound at the tallaght exit just before the gatso camera catching those slowing down to 60 k/mh. Sneaky. The traffic corps are so aggressive and have the attitude of farm animals.

Have been stopped and breath test 4 times in south dub in the last month. (Cabinteeely motorway x2, Donnybrook x1, Stillorgan x1) Think they find it easier trying to do the ordinary folks. When they pulled me in on their super check point they were so so rude. I never see check points in deepest darkest tallagh or killinarden...........

astraboy

I agree, its a case of Quantity of people caught exceeding a limit on a safe road, verses actually actively going out and seeking dangerous drivers.

I'm all for more breath tests though. No excuses for rudeness however, being polite just gets more people on their side, being rude achieves nothing.

D_murph

jonny24ie wrote: »

There is a reason these are called speed "traps", and that is to catch stupid drivers that fail to abide by the law.
If you don't speed then you have nothing to worry about.

:rolleyes: yawn..........

agent_smith

In fairness. I have rarely met a 'farm animal' garda. That is not to say it does not happen. There are rotten apples in each and every job. I do beleive though that we should tolerate them far less in the gardaí than in other jobs positions, since to a greater or lesser extent the garda's word will always be taken over yours.
Anyway I digress. I do not think this 'debate' can come to any happy conclusion. Most people have such high opinions of their own opinions that they are not open to reevaluating their opinion subsequently. There are good points being made by both sides.
As a motorcyclist (we are a minority on the roads ) I have a few issues with the current regime of hide and seek.
Ive mentioned this point a few times before. The problem with the hide and seek approach is that by the time people have seen the hidden garda they typically jam on the brakes or have a drastic reduction in speed, regardless of whether they are over the limit or not.
Driving near cillmacanough october last, there was a hidden garda just around the corner from the glen of the downs. I was behind an accord who was driving in 80kph zone. I was more than adhering to the 2 second rule. I had left a lot of space.However the guy in the accord who was prob at 75kph decided upon noticing hte garda to drop speed drastically to 60kph. Because i did not see the garda hidden, and because the road conditions ahead were good, i did not expect this. There was no accident, I had left lots of space between us. However there could well have been.
Its not the first and only example i can think of where ordinary joe who has not broken the law gets a fright and drops the speed dangerously and without fear of penalty. For the vehicle travelling behind , this is lethal. It is worrying when the enforcement of a law can be potentially lethal to every day road users, particularly those who will not have the advantage of ABS and four wheels in wet weather.

astraboy

^^^Well said^^^^^^^:) Bikers get a rough enough time in this country already with insurance prices and potholes!

klaus23

javaboy wrote: »

If a speeder knows where all the cameras are they will just speed where they know there are none.

If the same speeder is caught by surprise a few times, they'll clock up the fines+points and maybe learn their lesson.

I've only ever heard Gardai refer to motorists that break the speed limit as "Speeders" and this usually with spit flying out of their mouth as their Templemore indoctrination takes hold.

The current approach of enforcing little else apart from "SPEED" and "DRINK" only masks successive failures of successive Governments to address driver training.

For example, there isn't a snowball's chance in Hades, after today's announcment that the driving test backlog is still up 50%, that all applicants who applied and who were waiting from when the changes (and the u-turn) to the provisional licencing system were made public, will get a driving test between now and then.

Come July, cue pressure on the backbenchers as people who have built their life around the 'right' to drive, this will only be put forward once more, the Minister will keep his job, and Mary on her 19th provisional will continue trundling around Moate having never taken a test, while experienced drivers are picked off 10 km/h on dual carriageways in broad daylight.

I grew up in a country where responsible and highly trained drivers (read: Adults) are allowed to chose what speed they travel at on derestricted motorways.

Victor

smemon wrote: »

High up on the merging road (coming on to M1), there was a garda car parked on the side, sticking out a bit (half parked on kerb) with the driver door slightly open and something pointing out the window, looking down on passing traffic.

Automatic Number Plate Recognition camera.

"These are not the morons we are looking for".

Mylow

javaboy wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that they shoot fish in a barrel. There should be a mix of fixed cameras for particular black spots, mobile gatsos which change location regularly and a lot more unmarked Gardai in something other than a Mondeo.

The fact is that most speeders know when and where they can speed and get away with it.

They drive unmarked Subaru Foresters and Fiat Ulysses on M1, and Mondeos. Its the broken aerial stubs on the roof that is biggest give away. I don't honestly believe 100% of drivers set out to deliberately break the speed limit. I would say vast majority don't even realise they are over limit. I certainly don't set out to break limit, but I am sure there has been occassions I have gone over limit. The same way when you park in town and go over the parking time, you don't set out to go over the time and risk getting parking fine.

A bit of common sense needs to adopted, otherwise it will create similar situation to one that occured in UK. Big backlash against police by average Joe Soap, thats why they had to publish Safety Camera locations and also install temp signs indicating mobile speed trap's.

In North Wales, where "Gatso fan Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom has a league table for traffic cops", 56,247 speeding tickets were issued although this had no effect on safety, with an 18 per cent increase in road deaths.

In the same period it was revealed that his force had solved a mere six per cent of burglaries in their area. It would be interesting to see how many burglaries are solved in Meath/Louth Garda District.

Mylow

Victor wrote: »

Automatic Number Plate Recognition camera.

"These are not the morons we are looking for".

ANPR need a fixed scene height. Thats reason they are permanently mounted on vehicles or tripods. They cannot be hand operated.

astraboy

Mylow makes a good point. Police in England made the mistake of alienating people by punishing people bearly over the limit, yet being unable to catch those that committed crimes that actually hurt anyone. Also, over reliance on speed cameras ended up increasing road deaths.

AugustusMaximus

The young fellas out of Templemore do things by the book and more. They actively are on for the kill as if they are working on commission or something.

The more weathered Gardai seem to have a more sensible outlook. Boy racing activities are a big no no, while 5 or even 10 kph over the speed limit isn't exactly the end of the world, depending on the circumstances.

Ciaran500

Gatster wrote: »

No, do put it up. Smacks of, as usual, meeting targets and nothing else. As the OP said, if he wanted to slow people down as opposed to just catching them, he should be more visible.

I keep hearing this but is there any evidence at all that the Gardai have a target to meet?

Bearcat

if anyone is southside passing whites cross on the stillorgan dualer inbound you will see two middle aged plump motor cycle gardai in skin tight leather gear. in the morning doing bus lane duty. Freddie Mercury does not come close. They are on the hunt for motorists that dare thread a tyre an inch into the bus lane to turn left up the M50. I noted a lady turned just a tad onto the bus lane before thre real lane and by jaysus they hauled her in. She argued back and they went for her like mad men. I cant vouch I saw froth but these are the individuals that are supposed to be pillars of our community. Other commuters were just shaking their heads in disgust.

This is what we are up against......no reasoning. None. Not enought people have the balls or time to appeal these tickets in a court of law.

D_murph

Bearcat wrote: »

This is what we are up against......no reasoning. None. Not enought people have the balls or time to appeal these tickets in a court of law.

totally agree with you. if everyone challenged these ridiculous tickets then it might be a deterrent to the over the top idiots that write them and they would focus on those really doing dangerous things in traffic.

the problem is that a judge will never take the word of joe soap over that of a garda and its well known to be a waste of time.

innocent until proven guilty my ar$e, a person accused of murder has the right to go to court without fear of getting a tougher sentence if convicted.

get caught doing 5km over the speed limit and try to defend youself and the fine and points go up.

free country yeah right, at least dictators are honest :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

Ciaran500 wrote: »

I keep hearing this but is there any evidence at all that the Gardai have a target to meet?

http://breaking.tcm.ie/2005/04/28/story200071.html

Victor

All that does is move gardai to where there are known speeding patterns.

astraboy

Yes but is that speeding dangerous is the question? For instance in the Breaking news article(I know its 2 1/2 years old) they mention pulling people as they slow down from a 60mph to a 30mph zone(I know we use KM's now!). Thats just lazy policing to make the numbers.