Is €380-400k ridiculous money for a 2-bed apartment in Dublin 18?

fret_wimp

I have been considering jumping onto the property ladder with my partner. We both work in Sandyford Industrial Estate and so have been looking in D18. A 2 bed apartment would be fine for starters. all for sale in the area ( going by Daft) are 380-400K. is this rediclious money to pay for a 2 bed apartment, and is there a big chance that this property will depriciate by vast amounts?

Im not buying to make a quick buck, I want to buy as im sick of paying rent, as its dead money.

All advice welcome.

BillyoftheBeast

Im not buying to make a quick buck, I want to buy as im sick of paying rent, as its dead money.

Rent is dead money you are correct. You want money that is alive so you need to buy one of these apts.
2k rent a month, sorry 2k loan repayments a month, 3k management fees a year and then after 5 years you should be saving -70K over your sad renting friends.

bugler

Heh. You should probably search the term "dead money" if you want to hear people's opinions on that.

But aside from that, yes IMO that is crazy money. I've been in many Dublin apartments, and I've not seen one that was worth 400k. Not that I'm saying there are none. The Irish suburban apartment is going to take a bigger kicking than most property types.

connundrum

bugler wrote: »

The Irish suburban apartment is going to take a bigger kicking than most property types.

QFT. See the Sunday Times' property section to confirm that.

OP if you can afford to hold off for another while you'll save 20 - 30%. I speak of apartments only now, not houses.

ntlbell

The term down turn doesn't seem to mean anything to anyone

super_furry

Take €100,000 of the prices you're mentioning and maybe then it's worth it. €400,000 for a 2 bedroom apartment in Sandyford is the kind of insanity that has been plaguing the Irish market.

jdivision

If you want to buy offer 20 per cent less than asking price? Why the need to jump on the property ladder when prices are falling?

Calina

Yes, 380K is ridiculous money for a 2bed apartment. However, it being your money you are perfectly at liberty to spend it if you want. I know, however, that I wouldn't want to spend it on a 2bed apartment in Dublin 18. If it is critical to you that property does not depreciate in value ie because you will need to trade up then you should consider not buying a property which is not suitable to your medium term needs, mainly because if it does depreciate you are stuck.

Rent is only dead money if it exceeds the interest portion on your mortgage. If it does not, you are probably better off initially renting and saving the difference

AARRRGH

fret_wimp wrote: »

I want to buy as im sick of paying rent, as its dead money.

All advice welcome.

You should probably buy a farm so you can grow your own food as well, as buying food in Tesco is dead money!

Rent isn't dead money...

No one knows for certain how the property prices will go, but it would be wise to hold off for another year or so as it's likely they'll drop further.

tHE vAGGABOND

There is an element of supply and demand, a lot of people work in and around sandyford [Microsoft, Vodaphone etc] and it has the green luas line so you are in Stephens Green in 20 minutes. A lot of people have paid, and will pay, a lot more than 400k to live there!

400 is far too much for a crap 2 bed apartment on the side of the dublin mountains, on the far side of the M50..

400 is a good price if your in the cubes or beacon complex there, right beside the luas line. I know a few people living in them and they really like it! [That said, those places went for huge money]

derek27

It's ridiculous money for an apartment no matter where you purchase it

fret_wimp

fret_wimp wrote: »

I have been considering jumping onto the property ladder with my partner.



I want to buy as im sick of paying rent, as its dead money.

All advice welcome.

Crazy money, do your calculations - rent is NOT dead money in the current climate while rental yields are pathetic and prices of properties to buy are coming down.
How much to rent in the same or nearby area? Whats the price difference per month on renting V the mortgage?
Then look here, 2000+ price drops in the past 3 weeks why not let them drop further we all know they have a long way to come down

http://www.irishpropertywatch.com/

How Strange

There are strong rumours that the property market in the D18 area is in serious trouble (the word collapse has been mentioned) due to a glut of apartments and over development up there.

Those apartments are certainly not worth that. I've seen apts up there and some of the developments won't look so pretty in 5 years. They look nice now but they are only a couple of years old. There are very little facilities up there - the luas is only close if you live within walking distance and if not then you are at the mercy of Dublin Bus. You are miles out of the city with few amenities.

In a word, NO. The apt isn't worth that much. I'd chop €60k off it and you may be getting close to what its worth.

I've noticed that prices in D18 are staying obstinately higher than other areas in Dublin. But you can set your asking price at whatever you like but it is only worth what someone will pay for it.

If you are determined to buy then go in with a very low asking price and see what happens. I'd personally advise renting for another year to see how things pan out. And renting isn't dead money - you have to live somewhere. But it's because of attitudes like that, that we have apts for sale at €380-400k in the middle of nowhere!

patrickolee

Its worth what anyone is willing to pay for it. Right at the moment, I would suspect that is less than 400k. So personally, I wouldn't buy it at that price.
Is it near the luas? Parking included?

astrofool

Have you looked at Tullyvale/The Ramparts area? It will be on the luas line when the extension is finished, and right now is only a 10 minute drive to the industrial estate.

For example a 2 bed/2 bath apartment in The Ramparts is currently 398k, and will sell below that, there's also a 3 bed, 3.5 bath duplex in Gleann na Ri, currently at 450k, been on the market a while (started at 480k and has been heading down). Duplexes may hold their value a little better.

gurramok

Plus it ain't Manhattan by a long mile

Price drops have been recorded in apt blocks in Sandyford due to what How Strange has described.
As a prospective buyer, you should research your buying like any other item in life especially if it's 380k :eek:

fret_wimp

i am researching! what do you think this post is part of. Im at least 12 months away from having a deposit together anyway. Sandyford would be the most convinient for both of us which is why it is preferable. thats all.

sarahhurray

If it's most convienient then that's a very good reason to buy there.
Are you happy buying an apartment or would you prefer a house? Saving for a year gives you a very good time frame to see how the market is panning out, you will have a better idea then if the apartment is worth €380k - €400k and you be able to buy more with the same money.
If it's a new development i.e. you are buying off the builder you are in a stronger position as a buyer as they have a bigger margin to cut prices by than a recent buyer.
Good luck whatever you choose, the important thing is you are buying because you like the area you're not just putting up with it till you can afford the area you like. If you like apartment living too then you are on the right track.

chump

fret_wimp wrote: »

A 2 bed apartment would be fine for starters

What do you mean by this?
Are you happy to waste both yourself and your partners FTB status on something for "starters" ?

Do you know what element of a 35 year mortgage for 400k would be interest payments in the first 5 years?

Basic calculation, not including TRS or any other variables -

see http://www.jeacle.ie/mortgage/

2008 $19,901.83 $4,323.17 $395,676.83
2009 $19,680.63 $4,544.37 $391,132.46
2010 $19,448.14 $4,776.86 $386,355.60
2011 $19,203.74 $5,021.26 $381,334.34
2012 $18,946.83 $5,278.17 $376,056.17
2013 $18,676.82 $5,548.18 $370,507.99
2014 $18,392.95 $5,832.05 $364,675.94
2015 $18,094.58 $6,130.42 $358,545.52
2016 $17,780.93 $6,444.07 $352,101.45
2017 $17,451.23 $6,773.77 $345,327.68
2018 $17,104.69 $7,120.31 $338,207.37
2019 $16,740.40 $7,484.60 $330,722.77
2020 $16,357.47 $7,867.53 $322,855.24
2021 $15,954.95 $8,270.05 $314,585.19
2022 $15,531.84 $8,693.16 $305,892.03
2023 $15,087.08 $9,137.92 $296,754.11
2024 $14,619.57 $9,605.43 $287,148.68
2025 $14,128.14 $10,096.86 $277,051.82
2026 $13,611.54 $10,613.46 $266,438.36
2027 $13,068.55 $11,156.45 $255,281.91
2028 $12,497.79 $11,727.21 $243,554.70
2029 $11,897.78 $12,327.22 $231,227.48
2030 $11,267.10 $12,957.90 $218,269.58
2031 $10,604.13 $13,620.87 $204,648.71
2032 $9,907.29 $14,317.71 $190,331.00
2033 $9,174.77 $15,050.23 $175,280.77
2034 $8,404.76 $15,820.24 $159,460.53
2035 $7,595.39 $16,629.61 $142,830.92
2036 $6,744.56 $17,480.44 $125,350.48
2037 $5,850.24 $18,374.76 $106,975.72
2038 $4,910.15 $19,314.85 $87,660.87
2039 $3,921.95 $20,303.05 $67,357.82
2040 $2,883.21 $21,341.79 $46,016.03
2041 $1,791.32 $22,433.68 $23,582.35
2042 $643.56 $23,581.44 $0.91

Interest charge year 1 = $19,901.83 = 1658euro per month in interest in year 1.

Add on maintenance charge in the year and any other expenses.

That's not dead money for sure.

A Random Walk

Yes. It has been a collective madness and you don't have to choose to get involved. Half a million dollars to live in a box in the middle of nowhere in Ireland. The world is laughing at Paddy and his inability to understand basic economics.

southofdub

You should hurry up and jump on the ladder, If you wait another year you will be
paying much more for a super 2 bed apartment in this area.
Have you considered looking for a 100% 40 year mortage?:rolleyes:
Sure you will probably be "Dead" before you have it paid back anyway:).
I heard a rumor that they are running out of airspace in this part of south Dublin:cool:.

fret_wimp

jes folks. I came here asking for advice, not to be looked down unpon by condecending jerks who may know better, but are arrogant pigs.

Read my first post. I asked for "ADVICE".I Did not say "hey i just spent a fortune without researching!!!.

jes lads, if your here to help, then help, dont just be smug because you might know something others dont.

Calina

And yet, you've received some very valid comments and I don't see you reacting to them.

The point is you ask if an apartment is worth X money. Only you can decide what it's worth to you.

BillyoftheBeast

As a renter I found your 'renting is dead money' line patronising.

fret_wimp

apologies to those of you who did leave some very valid and interesting points without being condecending and rude. It is much appriciated.

fret_wimp

BillyoftheBeast wrote: »

As a renter I found your 'renting is dead money' line patronising.

What I mean by "dead money" is that you are simply chucking 500 quid per month away, it pays for someone else's mortgage, but aside from the benifit of allowing you a room and a place to rest your head for a month, it does nothing to help you. in 10 years, you will have paid god knows how much of your landlords mortgage, he is a good deal closer to owning his home, and you are still at the starting line. His rent (your landlord)is not dead money as it is going toward paying for his own home, or money he/she will get back if/when they sell.

I now see that rent is only dead money if it is more than the interest on your mortgage per month, so its not as bad as i thought. Id still rather be paying my money to help me gain a house or money when i sell, over paying someone elses mortgage.

SkepticOne

fret_wimp wrote: »

I now see that rent is only dead money if it is more than the interest on your mortgage per month, so its not as bad as i thought. Id still rather be paying my money to help me gain a house or money when i sell, over paying someone elses mortgage.

Bear in mind that approximately half of the mortgage will be interest payments (rent on money). Only the capital repayment portion is contributing to eventual ownership of the property. If your landlord were to buy the place you are renting today, how much would this interest portion be?

DonJose

BillyoftheBeast wrote: »

Rent is dead money you are correct.

I'd rather pay rent for a year than see the value of my €400k apartment drop 10-20% over the next year or so. According to IAVI, there are over 40,000 empty apartments in Dublin, so there is plenty of supply. The Gasworks apartment complex couldn't sell so they plan on turning it into a hotel. Apartments will take the biggest price drops. A lot are poorly built with recorded noise/insulation issues.

If you plan on never having children then an apartment might suit you, but wait at least a year. I'm waiting 18 months to buy in an estate I like, I've seen prices drop from €600k to €475k and I still think they will drop further.

starky

fret_wimp wrote: »

What I mean by "dead money" is that you are simply chucking 500 quid per month away, it pays for someone else's mortgage, but aside from the benifit of allowing you a room and a place to rest your head for a month, it does nothing to help you. in 10 years, you will have paid god knows how much of your landlords mortgage, he is a good deal closer to owning his home, and you are still at the starting line. His rent (your landlord)is not dead money as it is going toward paying for his own home, or money he/she will get back if/when they sell.

I now see that rent is only dead money if it is more than the interest on your mortgage per month, so its not as bad as i thought. Id still rather be paying my money to help me gain a house or money when i sell, over paying someone elses mortgage.

The whole “rent is dead money” is a bit of controversial view on this particular forum, I cringe any time I see some one post it, as I know people will be on complaining about it soon afterwards

The point is that evaluating rent as dead money should be done so on individual circumstance, and market circumstances.

For some it is dead money for some its not. Some see it as paying for a service, some see it as paying some ones else’s mortgage. It really depends what side of the fence you’re on.

If you are going to be staying in an area long term, and the rent in an around the same cost as the mortgage then why not buy? But if you are not sure you want to stay where you are, then paying rent can give you the flexibility of being able to move. Some people don’t want the commitment of a 40 year mortgage, I am dreading the day I have to sign for one, but I know that I will most likely have to at some point before I get too old, so that I will have some security of tenure.

If I could rent an apartment and have security of tenure like in other European countries, I would be perfectly happy renting long term, but the reality of that in Ireland will force me into the housing market eventually.

For me in today’s market, rent is not dad money. I save the difference that I would be paying in interest every month anyway. I am paying for a service and that’s the way I see it at the moment. My view may change in the long term though.

Jamar

I work in the area and have recently started to rent near the ind. estate. Personally, I'd not like to live in it (it sterile and ugly), although the Beacon near Dunnes would be bearable.

However, driving around the area, there are a lot of apartments within walking distance, and more around Dundrum and then Carrickmines. They are new, and they look unoccupied; they are building more and more. I'd drive and walk around and try and see how many are occupied to understand how many are selling. I'd not like to live in an empty block. Also, do people buying them think of them as permanent or not.

I think if I bought one, and wanted to sell it in X years (if there were kiddies, change of job) I'd not sleep easy. Whatever you think of 3bed semi-d's, that's what people in Ireland want and that'll be the market if you need to sell it.

HTH

musiknonstop

I don't see how they can justify the high prices for appartments in Sandyford Industrial Estate. The place is drab, soulless and dreary. There are no green areas.

How could anyone want to drop almost half a million to live in an industrial estate?

blah

fret_wimp wrote: »

What I mean by "dead money" is that you are simply chucking 500 quid per month away, it pays for someone else's mortgage, but aside from the benifit of allowing you a room and a place to rest your head for a month, it does nothing to help you. in 10 years, you will have paid god knows how much of your landlords mortgage, he is a good deal closer to owning his home, and you are still at the starting line.

I think if you were to ask the question on this forum, "If I paid rent on a house for 10 (or 20, or 30) years, when I could buy the same house, with the same monthly payment, would that be considered 'dead money'", then I'm sure everyone would agree that rent was dead money. But when you're comparing rent vs mortgage, you're not necessarily comparing the same thing.

And in answer to the original question I would not buy the D18 apt because I believe the price will go down.*

*but I am not any kind of expert

Glenbhoy

Since you've got at least a year, you can monitor individual apartments - watch for ones on the longest and make your offer accordingly!!

The_Conductor

fret_wimp wrote:

What I mean by "dead money" is that you are simply chucking 500 quid per month away, it pays for someone else's mortgage, but aside from the benifit of allowing you a room and a place to rest your head for a month, it does nothing to help you. in 10 years, you will have paid god knows how much of your landlords mortgage, he is a good deal closer to owning his home, and you are still at the starting line. His rent (your landlord)is not dead money as it is going toward paying for his own home, or money he/she will get back if/when they sell.

I now see that rent is only dead money if it is more than the interest on your mortgage per month, so its not as bad as i thought. Id still rather be paying my money to help me gain a house or money when i sell, over paying someone elses mortgage.

Re: your original question- is 380-400k ridiculous money for a 2-bed apartment in Dublin 18- yes, it is.

The most expensive apartments to rent in D18- probably Beacon South Quarter- go for about 1700-1800, elsewhere can be gotten for as low as 1100-1200 for a nice 2 bed have a look at daft here.

This 1700-1800 would service the interest component (alone) of a mortgage of about 390k. Those 2 bed apartments (Beacon Court) are on the market at 475-600k. Were a landlord to purchase one and rent it out to you- it would cost him perhaps as much as 400 (perhaps more) a month to rent you the apartment- i.e. the apartment itself is deadmoney- not your rent.

Based on a return on investment of between 4 and 6% (quite conservative) this would indicate that at current levels, apartment prices in D18 have the potential to fall between 20 and 35% before they would be considered a reasonable investment in nominal terms.

You would thus be better off renting in D18- unless your rent went up by over 30% or the price of the units fell by about 35%- in which case you would be better longterm buying.

faceman

dublindude wrote: »

You should probably buy a farm so you can grow your own food as well, as buying food in Tesco is dead money!

dont really get your analogy, sorry.

OP, boards is full of opinions and some of us who claim to know it all. Dont base your decisions on what you just read here.

Heres my 2c. As present the property market is in decline. Its a buyer's market, although viewings have increased dramatically since the start of the year in some areas in dublin. A property is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. So while people think 400k is a ridiculous price to pay, the price is determined by demand. I recently saw a hosue in dun laoire with an asking of 750k go for 990k and a house in rathfarnham ask for 730 and go for 660.

What you need to do is assess your situation carefully with your partner because if you do buy, you are going to be stuck with the property for a long time as the boom time is over. Do you want kids? Are you always going to want to live there? Apartments have been hit hardest since the downturn in the market. They are proving harder to sell. While thats good for buyers at the moment, if your circumstances changed in a few years and you had to sell, you could have a problem.

For a start do searches to assess the price of similar type properties in the estate and in the area. Work out the average price as an indicator.

When viewing properties, try to assess the sellers situation. You are in the best buying position as you have no where to sell. (the amount of times i have heard estate agents saying sales had fallen through as buyers couldnt seel their existing houses). Make sure the estate agent knows that. Find out how desperate the seller is to move. Have they a house already eyed up, have they a deposit down already?

When bidding, undercut the asking prices by about 20% and take your time. Granted it will not be accepted but if there are no other bids then they have to start taking you serious.

Avoid a bidding war no matter how much you like the property. There are plenty of places out there being sold.

Best of luck with it. It can be a stressful time but its worth it in the end. Buying a property/home is a long term asset. When you reach 50/55 and if you made sound purchasing decisions, you will hopefully have an asset that will outweigh the alternative of having rented for 20/30 years. The argument of dead money has a different meaning then.

Third_Echelon

starky wrote: »

The whole “rent is dead money” is a bit of controversial view on this particular forum, I cringe any time I see some one post it, as I know people will be on complaining about it soon afterwards

The point is that evaluating rent as dead money should be done so on individual circumstance, and market circumstances.

For some it is dead money for some its not. Some see it as paying for a service, some see it as paying some ones else’s mortgage. It really depends what side of the fence you’re on.

If you are going to be staying in an area long term, and the rent in an around the same cost as the mortgage then why not buy? But if you are not sure you want to stay where you are, then paying rent can give you the flexibility of being able to move. Some people don’t want the commitment of a 40 year mortgage, I am dreading the day I have to sign for one, but I know that I will most likely have to at some point before I get too old, so that I will have some security of tenure.

If I could rent an apartment and have security of tenure like in other European countries, I would be perfectly happy renting long term, but the reality of that in Ireland will force me into the housing market eventually.

For me in today’s market, rent is not dad money. I save the difference that I would be paying in interest every month anyway. I am paying for a service and that’s the way I see it at the moment. My view may change in the long term though.

I agree with you 100% starky. I also see it as paying for a service...

I'm in absolutely no rush to get into a crippling mortgage just so I can say that I own my house. Big frickin' deal. I think there are a lot of people in this country who are going to hit hard times with the massive mortgages hanging around their neck. Look at what has been happening in the US in recent months.... Albeit a slightly different economic situation I wouldn't be surprised to see some banks foreclosing on some mortgages. It may sound doom and gloom, but people paying well over the odds and then the value of the property dropping by 20 to 35% in a matter of months.... Its a slippery slope.

I hope someday to buy a house, but not in this climate.

faceman

Third_Echelon wrote: »

I agree with you 100% starky. I also see it as paying for a service...

I'm in absolutely no rush to get into a crippling mortgage just so I can say that I own my house. Big frickin' deal. I think there are a lot of people in this country who are going to hit hard times with the massive mortgages hanging around their neck. Look at what has been happening in the US in recent months.... Albeit a slightly different economic situation I wouldn't be surprised to see some banks foreclosing on some mortgages. It may sound doom and gloom, but people paying well over the odds and then the value of the property dropping by 20 to 35% in a matter of months.... Its a slippery slope.

I hope someday to buy a house, but not in this climate.

just to elaborate, if your property goes into negative equity, you are only in trouble if you want to sell it

Your mortgage is only crippling if you cant afford it.

House price growth is cyclical long term.

Afuera

faceman wrote: »

just to elaborate, if your property goes into negative equity, you are only in trouble if you want to sell it

How long do you reckon it takes for the average person/couple to outgrow a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment? Plenty of people have bought these "starter" properties in the last few years so they "could get on the ladder".

Third_Echelon

faceman wrote: »

just to elaborate, if your property goes into negative equity, you are only in trouble if you want to sell it

Your mortgage is only crippling if you cant afford it.

House price growth is cyclical long term.

I would tend to agree with Afuera's point... A lot of these properties are starter homes. People panic.... and there are people out there who have managed to get a mortgage beyond their means.

tHE vAGGABOND

How long do you reckon it takes for the average person/couple to outgrow a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment? Plenty of people have bought these "starter" properties in the last few years so they "could get on the ladder".

To be fair, in other countries some folks live in them their whole lives...

jam_mac_jam

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

To be fair, in other countries some folks live in them their whole lives...

in the middle of cities or towns maybe not that far out. You wont find many people living in the suburbs in cities in Europe living in small appartments.

gurramok

So apt blocks are royally fuggered.

Those that bought theirs as starter homes can't get out for years due to negative equity and those that would buy won't buy as they want either bigger apts or houses.

A load of grumpy people in tall buildings, new slums how are ya

Calina

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

To be fair, in other countries some folks live in them their whole lives...

the problem is that compared to other countries, many of the apartments here are disproportionately small and very poorly laid out. I could have lived in the one bedroomed apartments you get in Brussels for a very long. I'd be climbing the walls in a Dublin one inside six months. No storage. Basically designed for people who do nothing other than sleep.

patrickolee

Try visiting japan....

Tom123

IMO

380k is crazy for a city center apartment never mind an appartment in D18.

A rent is only dead money if it is less than the interest on the mortgage for the EXACT SAME property.

faceman

Afuera wrote: »

How long do you reckon it takes for the average person/couple to outgrow a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment? Plenty of people have bought these "starter" properties in the last few years so they "could get on the ladder".

im aware of that hence my comments in my first post on this thread.

Afuera

faceman wrote: »

im aware of that hence my comments in my first post on this thread.

Maybe I misread your first post but you signed it off in a very bullish way:

faceman wrote: »

Best of luck with it. It can be a stressful time but its worth it in the end. Buying a property/home is a long term asset. When you reach 50/55 and if you made sound purchasing decisions, you will hopefully have an asset that will outweigh the alternative of having rented for 20/30 years. The argument of dead money has a different meaning then.

Do you think buying a 2 bed apartment in D18 is a sound purchasing decision at this moment in time?

faceman

Afuera wrote: »

Maybe I misread your first post but you signed it off in a very bullish way:

Do you think buying a 2 bed apartment in D18 is a sound purchasing decision at this moment in time?

thats not what i said. my advice was to do their homework before making a decision. I dont know their personal circumstances and long term plans to be able to answer that, nor does anyone else on this thread for this matter at this juncture.

Afuera

faceman wrote: »

my advice was to do their homework before making a decision. I dont know their personal circumstances and long term plans to be able to answer that, nor does anyone else on this thread for this matter at this juncture.

The OPs first post suggests that they are not considering this for the long term.

fret_wimp wrote: »

I have been considering jumping onto the property ladder with my partner. We both work in Sandyford Industrial Estate and so have been looking in D18. A 2 bed apartment would be fine for starters.

astrofool

Tom123 wrote: »

IMO

380k is crazy for a city center apartment never mind an appartment in D18.

A rent is only dead money if it is less than the interest on the mortgage for the EXACT SAME property.

I think the equation for renting vs. buying should be something along the lines of:

if (rent + intangible cost per month of owning a property) < (interest on mortgage principal + intangible cost of benefits of renting)

That intangible is different for everyone. If rent was less than the cost of interest, then everybody would buy a home on an interest only mortgage, at the least (negative equity in the current market aside).

Would you pay €5 more in interest than rent to own your property if it suited your lifestyle?

faceman

Afuera wrote: »

The OPs first post suggests that they are not considering this for the long term.

hmm, actually i overlooked this point. So then yes, it would not be a good idea to be anything "for starters" at the moment if for starters is a short term period. (less than 5 years depending on house prices.)