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Was Eamon De Valera really all that great
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UnitedIrishman wrote: »He didn't just start a Civil War.. the minute that the Anti-treaty Sinn Feiner's decided to walk out of the Dáil in objection to the supposed treaty is when it started.
no , that was a political disagreement . Civil war began when people started shooting each other . Or more precisely it began when a group of Irishmen armed by Britian and on the instructions of the British cabinet began shelling Irishmen who wouldnt accept the terms of a British treaty which made Irish national sovereignty non existant . Quite shameful terms in fact .Fighting was between members of the IRB (who were either pro-treaty or anti-treaty).
The vast majority of IRA men who joined post 1916 were never IRB members
The IRB had been subsumed into the IRA years earlier and had ceased to function as an organisation . In order to subvert democracy within the Dail the IRA and sinn fein itself Michael Collins attempted to belatedly resurrect its structures , with himself at the top naturally , prior to a dail vote in order to subvert that vote . A vote the IRA never mind sinn fein should never have allowed take place anyway , that is the most important point . His instructions ,set in a secret militarist context of obeying IRB orders or else on what way former IRB members were to vote were essentially threats . Threats made in private and against which republicans subjected to them believed they had no recourse . This method was wholly undemocratic , fascism and an act of treason against the Irish nation by subverting its democractic structures with behind the scenes unnacountable militarism . Subversion and treason against the Irish nation in order to disestablish its national sovereignty and subvert its national governemnt as well as the democratic structures and processes within that governemnt . He was fully opposed by the vast majority of the IRA rank and file and its executive and could not get the majority required within sinn fein . So he resorted to unnacountable militarism in order to subvert democracy .The pro-treaty Sinn Feiners (becoming Cummann na Gaedhael) assumed control with no opposition in parliament due to Dev and his followers refusal to accept the oath as part of the treaty.
they also refused to accept the crime of the partition of the nation and southern Ireland having to pay massive financial reparations to england for all the hurt that had been caused to England . Not to mention accepting Engalnds right to force all of the above on Ireland in the first place , which was contrary to everything theyd joined the republican movement for and every right theyd fought for as a nation . If they wanted to swear oaths to foreign monarchs theyd have been better off staying at westminster rather than talking about stuff like sovereignty for Ireland , having a right to nationhood , inalienable and indefeasible and all that .But if truth be told, it was Dev's fault that the whole treaty came back from England in the manner it did. He wouldn't go over to England and negotiate himself because he knew that it was destined for failure.
he may well have knew but thats just a guess . Its much better to deal in actual facts though rather than attempted mind reading through the mists of time . The facts are at hand from Treaty signatory Robert Barton who pointed out exactly where disaster befell Ireland . The negotiating team agreed to enter negotiations when they arrived in Downing street on the basis they were not representing a sovereign government . That meant before theyd even begun negotiations the issue had already been pre determined through their own stupidity and Michael Collins haste to get himself into the history books . They couldnt even argue as a sovereign governemnt . They could not address the issue of national sovereignty . They were in other words catastrophically stupid, from the very outset and wholly compromised themselves and with that the entire negotiations and their nation . They made the most simple of schoolboy errors and behaved like inexperienced half wits , predetermining their fate from the very outset .England had Ireland between a rock and a hard place.
please please please...if that had been the case England would most definitely not have been negotiating with anyone . It would have been very happily mopping up and looking forward to the hard place to give an example to the rest of the empire .
The actual historical record proves the precise opposite was the case . The head of the British army in Ireland had sent his governemnt a very stark assessment . British morale in Ireland was broken . He made it quite clear to his governemnt , and Ill quote him , " it would most definitely not be safe to ask the troops to remain in Ireland another winter" . This is also borne out by numerous IRA intelligence reports of that time ( all of which were written down in detail) as well as the historical accounts of a number of figures engaged in insurgency . Very often the British were simply confining themselves to heavily fortified bases and dreaded going out , mostly only to resupply them . It was immediately after this military assessment the British began talking about truce talks , notably at the beginning of summer and before the winter guerilla conditions warned of by their top general came back again .
Britian was between a rock and hard place , their troops morale was gone , IRA morale was sky high . The British dreaded the onset of winter whilst the IRA actively looked forward to it . Thats the basis on which Britain sought negotiations . If they had thought for one minute the IRA was vulnerable theyd have gone for the jugularSo he sent Collins, Griffith and the others as plenopotentiaries (had the power to accept the treaty).
they were sent as plenipotentaries of an Irish republic , they came back with partition , a British oath of allegiance to the crown and demands for massive financial reparations to Britian of all people . They had no authority to accept any of this on behalf of the Irish nation .When it came down to it, after long negotiations and they had made decent progress,
as ive pointed out , one of their number Robert Barton pointed out they fluffed it catastrophically and amateurishly from the very beginning of negotiations , predeterming their outcome upon entry through a fundamental error .they were told that 'war immediate and terrible' would come if they didn't accept the terms and they weren't allowed to confer with Dev.
they should then have left and come home . What in the name of god were they over there for , if they accept Britin had the right to tell them even who they could talk to ?
The reality is , using logic over mythical narrative , once theyd compromised themselves from the outset Britain knew the Irish negotiatiors were up the creek . All it took was some cheap theatrics to deliver the coup de grace . In effect they were only giving the Irish side a figleaf to hide the schoolboy mess theyd made of the negotiations behind . Doing them a favour in other words . Had they not done that theyd have been laughed out fo the dail and decent set of negotiators sent over the next time .He wasn't a traitor.
then Marshall petain should have the grandest boulevard in Paris named after himHe along with O'Higgins and Cosgrave had to stabilise the country.. if they didn't there would be chaos and the English would most likely step in again.
yeah , right . England occupied Ireland to prevent chaos now
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At the very same time Field marshall wilson was orchestrating the most ferocious chaos amongst the civilian population of Irelands north east
Yeah he shelled his own countrymen, but he had little other option.
how about disobeying the orders of his countrys enemy , the British cabinet , and not shelling them ? not really that hard to doDev was lucky. When he did come to power, Cummann na Gaedhael had all the work done for him, the country was settled.
Well if you shell , machine gun , intern , execute and exile enough people sooner or later you can probably cow them . These turncoats certainly succeeded in doing what Britian instructed them to do .
counties antrim , Down , Armagh , Derry , Tyrone and Fermanagh were pretty much settled too .There was a police force in place and whilst he had to replace a lot of these with his loyal followers, the foundations of the state were already laid.
There two police forces in place in Ireland . Britian conceived both states state and forced them upon the Irish people . As usual using Irishmen with British guns to do their dirty work for them either side fio the border . That collins was successful in this does not make him any more an Irish patriot than Sir James craig .Would Dev have handed power over like CnaG did when they had to?
thats an entirely seperate issue from betraying your countrySo Dev, brilliant eh? :rolleyes: Collins did what had to be done. He took the steps towards a republic. We'd probably still be fighting the British if Dev had his way.
if the British werent in Ireland nobody would be fighting them . Again you seem to have missed some pretty major points in the logic of rebelling against the British presence in the first place . And Britains still here despite the rubbish about stepping stones . So Irishmen and women will probably still be fighting them well into the future . Thats inevitable when conflicts havent been resolved . But i suppose Britian can always count on an Irish leader in the state it created to do the necessary .0 -
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