Cruelty to horses?

LuckyStar

I am just wondering what you all think of horses being put in danger, injured or even killed in the pursuit of our "sports". Racehorses are put down from breaking their legs in races, hunting horses may fall and hurt themselves, showjumpers must feel the knock in their feet when they hit a pole, when often the race/hunt/jump was not strictly neccessary as it was for sport.

What do you think of this? Have you ever calmly tried to talk about the issue to a horse owner in a mature manner and just been given a tirade of abuse? One called me a retard, bitch, and used various 4 letter words.

togster

Yeah good thread lucky star. I would have to say that yes i have seen some horses injured. Most were competition horses. These horses are like top athletes who thrive on competition. However with proper care and fitness procedures the risks are limited. Hope this answers your question?

Bendihorse

Luckystar, If you dont like horse riding then why are you in an equestrian forum? Its pointless trying to explain something to people like you because you already have your mind made up based on little knowlege or fact. I suspect this will be locked and deleted shortly.

fits

No actually I think it is an interesting topic and I'm going to leave it here for discussion. There are definitely ways in which horses are open to abuse and it does go on... in all equestrian disciplines.

Any abusive posts from anyone (or pms for that matter) and I will ban your ass sooner than you can say 'but I...'

LuckyStar

Bendihorse wrote: »

Luckystar, If you dont like horse riding then why are you in an equestrian forum? Its pointless trying to explain something to people like you because you already have your mind made up based on little knowlege or fact. I suspect this will be locked and deleted shortly.

I do like horseriding and have been doing so for 10 years. I have two horses of my own and have kept them all my life so I do have quite a bit of knowledge about them. As for "people like me" I cannot recall ever meeting you so am not sure how you know me.

As for the thread being deleted, doesn't bother me, it would reflect more on the forum than anything else if we cannot discuss horse-related matters. Which I thought this forum was for?

togster

LuckyStar wrote: »

As for the thread being deleted, doesn't bother me, it would reflect more on the forum than anything else if we cannot discuss horse-related matters. Which I thought this forum was for?

OK so what is it you want to know? Is it people taking risks with horses?
Because the extent of the risk is subjective. You say you ride horses that in itself a risk. You could be walking down the rode and a horse could stumble and smash his knees. Do you see my point?

Of course some areas of riding are more risky than others. I have seen a horse break its neck cross country and i have also seen a horse die from collic. Both man made.

The forum is open to all aspects of equestrian life; good, bad and ugly.

PROVIDED that they are discussed in a helpful and respectfull manner, and that they do not breech the charter.

Carry on...

Bendihorse

I dont think that anyone wants to see their horse get injured, much like no one likes to see a human injured, but humans and horses put themselves at risk all the time in the name of enjoyment.
No body that has seen a horse compete at a high level could say that it wasn't enjoying itself, if it wasn't then it wouldn't try hard enough to get to the top level in competition. Even at lower level, horses are a lot stronger than humans, they have various ways of showing us when they are not happy. 99% of people can recognise when there is something wrong/that the horse is not happy and do something about it, sadly there are cases where people try to use brute force and cruelty to solve these matters. Those people should not be allowed to have any animals, horse, cow, dog or hamster.

LuckyStar

Regarding the topic, there is a difference between walking a horse around a field and jumping him over metal gates he may not be able to clear.

Togster, thank you for replying without swearing at me this time. I detailed what I wanted to know in my first post- do you believe it is cruel to risk an animal's health or even life for the sake of sport?

I would also like to know if you think animal welfare is your business? For example if you saw or heard of an animal being mistreated do you feel it is your duty to stick up for the animal? I certainly do, as animals cannot speak for themselves. Black Beauty was written for this sole reason and the author never wrote another book, she made her point. If you were to stand back and say nothing would you feel this could be considered condoning cruelty?

fits

please keep on topic and leave the moderating to the moderators. I've no interest in hearing about yesterdays post from anyone.

Bendihorse

In relation to that comment you made, it was a miracle that both horse and person weren't killed. Stop trying to defend it. Your opinion on hunting is your own and im not arguing that with you, throwing out a flippant comment like you did where a persons life could have been lost was in very poor taste.

I would never stand by and see an animal poorly treated or neglected. I felt compelled to call the ISPCA on on occasion where a person who should know much better had let some ponies in his care die over a harsh winter due to not having enough regard for them as they were not valuable enough, yet he had a yard full of well fed gleaming and valuable sport horses that were very well looked after. The good ones were actually rode out in the field where the ponies were and past their carcasses as if they weren't there.

I am also in the progress of fostering a horse from the ISPCA, i chose to do this as i have spare land and want to give them room to take on another mistreated horse in its place.

togster

LuckyStar wrote: »

Regarding the topic, there is a difference between walking a horse around a field and jumping him over metal gates he may not be able to clear.

Really how so? I wouldn't jump a gate with a horse if i didn't think he could! That comes from years of experience, but sometimes accidents happen!

LuckyStar wrote: »

Togster, thank you for replying without swearing at me this time. I detailed what I wanted to know in my first post- do you believe it is cruel to risk an animal's health or even life for the sake of sport?

Yeah no bother. Do i believe it is cruel? No i don't. I thought i made that clear already. But here it is again!!:)

LuckyStar wrote: »

I would also like to know if you think animal welfare is your business? For example if you saw or heard of an animal being mistreated do you feel it is your duty to stick up for the animal? I certainly do, as animals cannot speak for themselves. Black Beauty was written for this sole reason and the author never wrote another book, she made her point. If you were to stand back and say nothing would you feel this could be considered condoning cruelty?

Animal welfare? Yes i do, but i make sure i know the facts before criticising something i know nothing about.

Comprendez?

fits

Right... one final little reminder.

If I get any inkling that this thread is developing into anything other than a general discussion on horse welfare it is gone. I do not want any particular instances discussed (unless there has already been a conviction).
I also do not want this to descend into another argument on foxhunting... been there done that.

Right - next personal attack gets a break for a week

Thread will be locked if you don't stop this ****.

Bendihorse

LuckyStar wrote: »

Regarding the topic, there is a difference between walking a horse around a field and jumping him over metal gates he may not be able to clear.

Just in reply to that, i dont think any sane person would face their horse at an obstacle they weren't sure he had the capability to jump, that would be more or less suicidal to both horse and rider.

Horses - particularly hunting horses, have a good handle on what they can and cant do themselves, thats why plenty refuse obstacles. Its interesting to see a young unsure horse refuse an obstable a few times, but when he sees that other horses can and have jumped it, he will try himself. They get to know their limits like humans do, they have great self preservation instincts.

LuckyStar

togster wrote: »

Really how so? I wouldn't jump a gate with a horse if i didn't think he could! That comes from years of experience, but sometimes accidents happen!



Yeah no bother. Do i believe it is cruel? No i don't. I thought i made that clear already. But here it is again!!:)



Animal welfare? Yes i do, but i make sure i know the facts before criticising something i know nothing about.

Comprendez?

Maybe I wrong but I am getting a sniff of deliberate patronisation here, as I certainly am not critiscising something I know about. I have had horses since I was a child.

Bendihorse wrote: »

Just in reply to that, i dont think any sane person would face their horse at an obstacle they weren't sure he had the capability to jump, that would be more or less suicidal to both horse and rider.

That is fair enough. But horses like every animal and humans, have their off-days. Every horse has days where he is more sluggish than usual. Take mares in heat, mine is never herself at that time, she seems to be very uncomfortable those days so she has a little holiday. And horses often only clear fences/jumps by a matter of inches. Unfortunately the margin for error is often very slim, and thus, even though the horse may have jumped that height or that fence before, does not mean he is guaranteed to be able to do it again. The same way as we may have had a horse buck on us many times before and stayed on, and then when we least expect it, we're on the ground

togster

LuckyStar wrote: »

. And horses often only clear fences/jumps by a matter of inches. Unfortunately the margin for error is often very slim, and thus, even though the horse may have jumped that height or that fence before, does not mean he is guaranteed to be able to do it again. The same way as we may have had a horse buck on us many times before and stayed on, and then when we least expect it, we're on the ground

Im confused as to whats the point of this thread? Are you saying that we shouldn't jump horses? Or only when its a certain heigth?
Surely only the rider knows what his/her horse can jump? That is what riding is about afterall. Learning to know your horse and its abilities and helping to develop their potential.

Bendihorse

Horses definatly have their off days, but riders - especially top level riders are super sensitive to their horses moods, they would never risk injuring a valuable horse just for the sake of one day out or one round.

Take one of the big events that was held in the UK recently, cant remember which one, but loads of riders actually pulled out of the event because they felt the ground was too hard for their horses and weren't prepared to risk injury.

You'll often see riders pull their horses up mid round because they dont feel 100% right. This si certainly the case with Showjumpers. Horses are transported to shows and stabled at enormous expence yet may never leave their stall except to get 'walked out' as they are a bit off colour.

Sometimes people make errors of judgement and sometimes accidents happen, but i dont think highly strung competition horses would be any better off in the wild left to their own devices than they are taking a moderate risk by competing once or twice weekly.

As for race horses, sadly this is where most accidents happen. But i think a way to look at it is that if a horse can at all get up and continue - rider or not, he will do that so that means theres instinct there to win, its not just running because the rider on its back is forcing it to.

LuckyStar

togster wrote: »

Im confused as to whats the point of this thread?

The point of this thread is

original post, by Luckystar wrote:

I am just wondering what you all think of horses being put in danger, injured or even killed in the pursuit of our "sports".

I am not interested in repeating the answer to your question over and over, if you are not interested in reading what I wrote in the first place, you are not obliged to answer me. I was more than clear about what the thread was about in that original post. Thanks.

togster

LuckyStar wrote: »

The point of this thread is



I am not interested in repeating the answer to your question over and over, if you are not interested in reading what I wrote in the first place, you are not obliged to answer me. I was more than clear about what the thread was about in that original post. Thanks.

I think you had an alternative motive to starting the thread to be honest. But thats neither here nor there. I have answered your question or?
Yes i do think it is acceptable that horses get injured in the pursuit of sport.
Whats not acceptable is injuring a horse on purpose or not taking due care.
My 2 cents.

LuckyStar

Bendihorse wrote: »

As for race horses, sadly this is where most accidents happen. But i think a way to look at it is that if a horse can at all get up and continue - rider or not, he will do that so that means theres instinct there to win, its not just running because the rider on its back is forcing it to.

Indeed, it is certainly heartening to see a rider-less horse galloping with the rest of them, blissfully unaware that even if he wins, it won't be counted because he had no rider

But I have often looked at fantastic horses that lost their lives because of injuries sustained on the racetrack and thought- it's an awful pity. All the training and care to keep them in that condition and their lives are over in a split second.

Bendihorse

Thats very true, beautiful creatures that thorougbreds are, but sadly that partly contributes to their high injury rate - long lean limbs and fine bones are sadly very susceptible to breaking and dont heal well at all.

Im not a fan of racing to be honest, i find its more about the betting that the horses. I love watching documentaries about race horses at home, in the stable yard or in training, when the programme is all about how they are, how they get them to peak fitness and all the work everyone from groom to trainer to the horse has to put in to getting to the races.
But on the day the betting takes over and the commentary on the tv is more about odds than the animals in the race and how and why they are so great at what they do. :rolleyes:

To echo Togster and in response to your initial question,

I dont think using horses in the name of sport is 'cruel', as long as EVERY precaution is taken to ensure that that both horse and rider get home as safe as possible and no chances are taken. Accidents happen to horses in the wild too, taking them out of sport and leaving them to the wilds would be counter productive. In the wild, broken down and injured horses often have to struggle on and endure a long and painful death as they have no one to make the decision to end it for them.

Not everyone 'loves' or has as deep a connection with horses/animals, but i think it would take a particularly cold calous person to actively put a horse into a situation that it wasn't able for and i dont think it happens much in the sporting world where animals are too valuable to be treated poorly. Cruelty is much more evident with horses that are not cared for and are just left in a field unwanted and unchecked.

fits

Luckystar is now taking a holiday after ignoring repeated warnings. Anyone doing same will receive similar treatment.

togster

i love showjumping

togster

Sorry just back from party with some horsey folk.

Love ye all.

doctor evil

The risk is relative, a horse can damage itself out in a field as much as when it is ridden.

Bubonicus banned for one week.

AckwelFoley

There are risks in all sports.

Horses enjoy the activity and excercise and there is equal risk to the human as there is to the horse.

I generally find that ppl that are opposed to foxhunting and other horse activity dont know the first thing about either.

Bendihorse

Wow. It would seem that a lot happened in here after i went home on Friday evening...

convert

It's always easy to focus on sports that are in the media, such as racing, eventing, showjumping, hunting, etc., but just curious as to whether anyone has statistics for how many horses are injured/killed either in stables or fields, where it doesn't receive the same media attention?

wombles

convert wrote: »

It's always easy to focus on sports that are in the media, such as racing, eventing, showjumping, hunting, etc., but just curious as to whether anyone has statistics for how many horses are injured/killed either in stables or fields, where it doesn't receive the same media attention?

Excellent point!

kerrysgold

I think a sport like racing should be made safer, sure it might be thrilling etc to see the horses tackling massive fences but I don't think a horses life is worth a bit of excitement, and I also don't agree with 2 y/o horses being raced. Fox hunts are also quite dangerous since the horses follow wherever the fox goes which might involve jumping wire etc (have actually seen horses being advertised where the ad says they can jump wire! why on earth would you put your horse at wire anyway?!) but then horses can injure themselves for stupid reasons like slipping the field and breaking a leg or tripping over, or dying because of colic from careless feeding etc. (even though obviously colic can affect even the most well cared for horses)
not really to do with injuries but I don't like how competition/race horses seem to be stabled so much, even during the day. does anyone know how much daily turnout a racehorse gets? not including being ridden/in the horse walker. I have also heard of people that have valuable horses being afraid to turn them out with other horses in case they get injured while playing, so basically the poor horse isn't allowed to be a horse.

bob1984

kerrysgold wrote: »

Fox hunts are also quite dangerous since the horses follow wherever the fox goes which might involve jumping wire etc (have actually seen horses being advertised where the ad says they can jump wire! why on earth would you put your horse at wire anyway?!)

Have you actually ever hunted?
Horses dont follow the fox, the hounds do and the field master then leads the riders. And certanly any hunt I have been on riders are not forced to jump wire, they can choose to do so but most horses that do are trained for this anyway....

Borderfox

Personally I think for everything Horses give us, we as humans do them a great dis-service. I have seen Horses lives wasted in the pursuit of monetary gain and sometimes it makes me sick to my stomach, and this is coming from somebody who takes pictures of Horses for a living so imo I have a wide range of experience in all aspects of the sport.

convert

bob1984 wrote: »

Have you actually ever hunted?
Horses dont follow the fox, the hounds do and the field master then leads the riders. And certanly any hunt I have been on riders are not forced to jump wire, they can choose to do so but most horses that do are trained for this anyway....

Good point!

In addition, a lot of people opt not to jump wire/ditches/fences out hunting if they feel their horses are too inexperienced. I for one have no problem retracing my steps and catching up via road/alternative route if I feel that the obstacle isn't suitable for my horse. It doesn't happen that often as I've taught the horses how to jump wire, drains, ditches etc at home in a safe and quiet environment, so when they go out hunting they know what to do and don't make mistakes.

Furthermore, why is there always an immediate and large focus on fox hunting when 'hunting' is mentioned. Harriers, staghounds, and drag hunts also cross the same country and come across the same fences, so I don't think it's entirely fair just to focus on fox hunting simply because some people don't agree with it.


As for racing and making it safer...

As somebody who has both evented and point-to-pointed, I would much rather send my horse racing than eventing any day. The fences that are used eventing are solid, man-made fences that don't have any 'give' in them if a horse hits them. At least racing (and I'm talking national hunt racing here - point-to-pointing, steeplechasing and hurdle races) if a horse hits the fence there is some 'give' in it and the horse is much less likely to somersault (this isn't an attack on eventing btw, so don't take it as such!)

Finally, as for how much time a racehorse spends out in the field etc. varies.

Since I point-to-point (the season runs from around October to June) my horse stays out for the summer, and is in the field all day every day. When he comes back into light work in August he's out for a few hours everyday, but when he's back into full work it's not viable to keep him out. Not only is the grass not as plentiful but it's also too cold. Anyway, when you're trying to get a horse racing fit, you don't want him eating much grass as it tends to keep too much weight on him ('fat' weight as opposed to 'muscle' weight) for fast work. However, we do have an enclosed stableyard, so he gets outside for a bit about 4-5 times a day in addition to the time he's outside being exercised. He also gets about 10 minutes in-hand grazing everyday. So although he's not being 'turned out' in the manner that some people would like him to be, he's not in his stable all day long.

Kerrysgold, you've got to remember that a racehorses and competition horses are not like pleasure/occasional competition horses. They need different care and feeding regimes. Competition and racehorses can't perform at their maximum potential if they're turned out all the time or for long periods each day during the competition/racing season. This is something you've got to appreciate and come to understand.

Borderfox

I thought the eventing fences were changed to include zip ties with a breaking strain to give way if the force is exceeded? I could be wrong though. Sounds like a nice life for your horse Convert

convert

That may be the case; I'm not sure as it's been a number of years since I've evented. Even still, the fences will still require a huge amount of force to collapse under pressure.

kerrysgold

It's not always the fences that are the danger either, as that french horse proved tragically

togster

Why what happened the french horse? Horses sometimes die eventing or other sports but horses also die because of worm infestation, collic etc. Neither are natural occurences. Neither is more cruel than the other. Competition horses and horses used for recreational uses are used by humans for enjoyment.

AckwelFoley

Look, i got to go out and earn my keep as a person.

Horses should too.

togster

snyper wrote: »

Look, i got to go out and earn my keep as a person.

Horses should too.

+1

wombles

And look at the Olympic hopeful dressage horse that died this week. it was just out loose playing around and shattered leg in 7 places.

miss enzo

i dont think using animals for sports is cruetly as long as the animals are given proper care... i mean its not like the horse isnt a natural athlete! its not like we're asking things they physically cant do.. that would be cruel.... granted sometimes the limits are pushed but thats how things go!
as for injuries durin sports sure how many footballers break their legs, arms, noses etc... sports = injury!
the welfare issue is how the animal is treated post injury. if its a bad one ur better off just puttin the horse down because keeping it alive and trying to fix it could prolong suffering and pain.


so ya all and all i dont think its cruel as long as welfare is considered!

kerrysgold

togster wrote: »

Why what happened the french horse? Horses sometimes die eventing or other sports but horses also die because of worm infestation, collic etc. Neither are natural occurences. Neither is more cruel than the other. Competition horses and horses used for recreational uses are used by humans for enjoyment.

He hit off the little flag pole at the side of the fence (you know the red and white flags) and broke it and it severed an artery in his chest I think

wombles, what dressage horse was that? didn't hear anything about that! :eek:

wombles

Fiona Bigwood lost her Olympics dressage horse in a freak accident.

http://eurodressage.com/news/dressag...8/gbr_mrg.html

kerrysgold

What a shame, he was a beauty

togster

kerrysgold wrote: »

He hit off the little flag pole at the side of the fence (you know the red and white flags) and broke it and it severed an artery in his chest I think

Bad buzz but i've seen a horse in a field that had somehow managed to stake himself through his chest. Sh!t happens sometimes. As a previous poster stated horse sports are fine as long as welfare is considered a top priority.

wombles

And Fiona Bigwood's horse shattered its leg while it was playing on the loose! Our shetland pony broke a leg whilst out playing a year ago - had he been stabled it wouldnt have happened.

Is jumping a horse more cruel than fattening cattle to go to slaughter? I know which animal I would prefer to be. It seems that anything that is deemed "sport" is cruel - yet anything that is for the plate is fine.

In eventing I think the percentage of riders that have been killed is probably higher than the number of horses.

napoles

kerrysgold wrote: »

He hit off the little flag pole at the side of the fence (you know the red and white flags) and broke it and it severed an artery in his chest I think
:eek:

Yep, I was there last year when it happened. Heartbreaking, but a freak accident. As far as I know they are replacing those wooden flags now with the bendy ones that would yield under pressure.
The use of frangible pins which allow the fence to collapse is looking like becoming more main stream too as an attempt to prevent the dreaded rotational falls which cause the most injuries and fatalities.

There was a Eventing safety seminar recently in Copenhagen where these and other important safety points were discussed and debated with a view to making the sport safer for both horse and rider.

miss enzo

wombles wrote: »

And Fiona Bigwood's horse shattered its leg while it was playing on the loose! Our shetland pony broke a leg whilst out playing a year ago - had he been stabled it wouldnt have happened.

sorry now but that is a silly remark!!! why do u think have a horse locked up would be better for them! get real!!! the more natural livin environment (ie living outside) has been scienctifically proven (and i know cause i read some of the studies in college as part of one of my modules!) to improve horses mental and physical wellbeing.

goin by ur point its like if u have a kid are u goin to let them play outside or keep them locked up in the house for fear that something might happen..... kids fall and hurt themselves horses get injured occasionally too...... sh!t happens its the aftercare thats important (as stated in my previous post!)

in fairness though do you think the equine conpetition scence would be as popular worldwide if it was seen as cruel:rolleyes:

miss enzo

napoles wrote: »

Yep, I was there last year when it happened. Heartbreaking, but a freak accident. As far as I know they are replacing those wooden flags now with the bendy ones that would yield under pressure.

where did that happen...... i remember seein it somewhere and cant remember where!