Oil burner solenoid problem?

mxe01

Hi,

Can anyone help - I have a Grant Minor One S burner which has been playing up recently. Started with the oil pump developing a leak (Suntec As47A) Around the same time, the motor would intermittantly 'stick'

Decided to change the motor and pump and drive coupling. (all genuine parts) but now, no oil comes out from the pump. It points to the solenoid valve not operating, but I can hear it clicking after 10sec, but nothing.

I've swapped the control box and put a new photocell in but still no oil. If I remove the solenoid piston, I get oil.

I would say that this definately points to the solenoid valve but I swopped the pump (which incorpoates the solenoid) back to the old one and no oil comes through that one either.

I've run out of ideas

Any help or pointers would be much appreciated

Thanks

JamesM

I presume that you have bled the pump. Have you loosened the nut on the pipe to the nozzle to see if it's not just a blocked nozzle ? Have you put the motor, pump and drive coupling back together properly ? Did you fit a new solenoid coil ? They often give trouble.
Jim.

mxe01

Jim,

Thanks for your reply,

If I remove the solenoid valve, it'll pump oil OK. That tells me that the pump is properly connected to the motor and is pumping oil OK.

I've removed the pipe from the outlet of the pump and I get no oil there.

It was a new coil that came with the pump - I've also fitted the old coil and that doesn't make a difference.

It's totally baffled me - it seems a long shot that the new pump/solenoid/coil are faulty along with the old ones which were working OK but just had a persistant drip from the bearing seal.

Again, if anyone has any ideas, I'd really appreciate it

Many thanks

Mike

JamesM

Have you changed the oil pressure adjustment screw ? If you have changed the settings, Screw it in fully and then turn anticlockwise about 5 turns
Is the new pump the same make or did you get a Danfoss pump ? Are you sure that you have connected to the correct outlet ?

I don't want to rub this in, but you are already well on the way to the price of a new burner. For anyone else that still has a Minor 1, if it gives trouble, scrap it and buy a new burner - they gave a lot of trouble. Grant stopped using them in about '92 or '93.
Jim.

mxe01

Jim,

Thanks again for the reply,

I can certainly agree that this burner has been troublesome over the years. I installed it new in 1994ish and it's given nothing but trouble ever since.

I've changed like for like, Suntec pump/solenoid/coil/ for exactly the same

Simel motor - again like for like

It doesn't make sense.

Although I've changed a good few parts, cost wise, it's been very cheap to resource the parts - however, it's cost me hours of time on my knees in the shed on my own. I think I would certainly have to agree that in the long run, I would have been better off changing the burner complete.

Best regards

Mike

JamesM

It really does seem like the solenoid. Do you think that it is the solenoid clicking after 10 secs, or is the sound coming from the control box ? If the solenoid is not clicking, check that you have not pulled out one of the solenoid coil wires in the control box base.
Have you 1 or 2 oil lines going into the oil pump. There is a screw supplied with the pump, which needs to be either put in or left out depending whether you have a 1 or 2 pipe system. You will see something about it in the pump instructions.
I really can't think of anything else
Jim.

mxe01

Just an update,

Problem eventually sorted - bought another Suntec pump locally (cost me an arm and a leg) after I was convinced that the new pump I fitted had a faulty solenoid valve and the burner fired up immediately. Only conclusion that I could draw was that the valve was indeed faulty.

Just need a refund on the other one and I'll be a happy man.

Jim, thanks for all your replies

Regards

Mike

JamesM

Very frustrating when the "new" part is faulty :mad:
Glad you got it sorted
Jim.

Lex Luthor

JamesM wrote: »

I don't want to rub this in, but you are already well on the way to the price of a new burner. For anyone else that still has a Minor 1, if it gives trouble, scrap it and buy a new burner - they gave a lot of trouble. Grant stopped using them in about '92 or '93.
Jim.

Hi Jim,

I have a Minor 1 that has been running fine for teh last 6-7 yrs but gave a bit of trouble in the first 3-4yrs.

Its in 12 yrs now and I'm happy with that. What would you suggest replacing them with if it eventually did pack in?

JamesM

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Hi Jim,

I have a Minor 1 that has been running fine for teh last 6-7 yrs but gave a bit of trouble in the first 3-4yrs.

Its in 12 yrs now and I'm happy with that. What would you suggest replacing them with if it eventually did pack in?

The problems with the Minor 1 were usually mechanical. The combustion side of things was usually good. They are quite efficient. If it is running OK, I would leave it alone - it is not wasting oil like some of the older models.
When the time comes to replace it, If you are using diesel, I would use the Riello G3. If you have kerosene, either the G3 or Riello RDB. A Bentone would also be OK with kerosene - not as good with diesel.
Jim.

GatsbyDub

Anyone know how to access the electrodes. I removed the burner from the boiler. How do I get the metal cylinder out to access the nozzle and electrodes.

Any help would be appreciated

GatsbyDub

JamesM

GatsbyDub wrote: »

Anyone know how to access the electrodes. I removed the burner from the boiler. How do I get the metal cylinder out to access the nozzle and electrodes.

Any help would be appreciated

GatsbyDub

With the Minor 1 there is one, or sometimes two, allen screws in the body holding the head in place. Small holes in the casing at the top. If you think that there is no spark, move the electrodes closer together, the transformer often fails in these, but you can sometimes get a spark by closing the gap. Make sure that the electrodes do not short on the head when you put it back together. Looking at my past posts, remember that a new burner can be cheaper than constantly putting parts into an old one. You can safely chech that the spark is OK by pulling the plug out of the solenoid coil, and looking at the front of the burner - it will not ignite in your face.
Jim.

GatsbyDub

JamesM wrote: »

With the Minor 1 there is one, or sometimes two, allen screws in the body holding the head in place. Small holes in the casing at the top. If you think that there is no spark, move the electrodes closer together, the transformer often fails in these, but you can sometimes get a spark by closing the gap. Make sure that the electrodes do not short on the head when you put it back together. Looking at my past posts, remember that a new burner can be cheaper than constantly putting parts into an old one. You can safely chech that the spark is OK by pulling the plug out of the solenoid coil, and looking at the front of the burner - it will not ignite in your face.
Jim.

Are you there, Jim?

GatsbyDub.

GatsbyDub

GatsbyDub wrote: »

Are you there, Jim?

GatsbyDub.

Don't you get about 20 seconds of the electrodes sparking before the kerosene comes out? Wouldn't that be enough time to see if the electrodes are sparking?

GatsbyDub

Traditional

are the electrodes sparking ?
will it not start ?

Traditional

is it not sparking ?

GatsbyDub

Traditional wrote: »

are the electrodes sparking ?
will it not start ?

I don't know. I'm afraid to take the burner out and look in case they are sparking and my face ignites. I think they should spark (if they're working) for about twenty secs before the kerosene starts to spit? Would I be safe looking?

Jamie said something in reply to another post
about removing the connection to the solenoid. I don't know whether that would stop the sparking and hence stop the fuel igniting? A bit confused.

GatsbyDub

Traditional

is the burner not firing ?
is the oil spraying out ?

Traditional

it wont ignite for about 10 to 15 seconds so you can look in but having it facing away from you at same time , what make is burner ?

JamesM

If you want to check if the electrodes are sparking, either pull the plug from the solenoid coil, or lift the coil from the solenoid body. Then it can't ignite. The solenoid is sitting on the oil pump.
Jim.

GatsbyDub

Traditional wrote: »

is the burner not firing ?
is the oil spraying out ?

When I switch it on it 'hisses' for about 20/30 seconds....doesn't fire...just cuts out.

GatsbyDub.

GatsbyDub

JamesM wrote: »

If you want to check if the electrodes are sparking, either pull the plug from the solenoid coil, or lift the coil from the solenoid body. Then it can't ignite. The solenoid is sitting on the oil pump.
Jim.

I'm afraid I won't pull out the correct plug. Is it the one that looks like what you see at the end of an electric kettle lead?
GatsbyDub.

GatsbyDub

Traditional wrote: »

it wont ignite for about 10 to 15 seconds so you can look in but having it facing away from you at same time , what make is burner ?

Grant Minor 1.

GatsbyDub

JamesM

GatsbyDub wrote: »

I'm afraid I won't pull out the correct plug. Is it the one that looks like what you see at the end of an electric kettle lead?
GatsbyDub.

The oil line goes into the bottom of the oil pump. The solenoid coil sits on the top of the oil pump. Either take the nut off the top, or pull the plug (like a small kettle type). From what you say about the hissing sound, it sounds a sif that sound is the spark - so you probably have a spark. Unfortunately the Minor 1 can have lots of other problems. Most people stopped using it about '93 or '94. The solenoid may not be opening and letting the oil through - a faulty coil is very common. To check this, take the nut off the top of the coil, hold the coil in your fingers, and lift it slightly. Turn on the burner, after about 10 secs, you should feel a vibration in your fingers, as the coil tries to open. If there is no vibration, the coil is dead. There can be other problems with this burnes, another common one is the coupling between the motor and the oil pump wears away very quickly.
To be honest, I would say, don't put any money into this burner, get a new one - less than €300 for a Riello G3 - works very well in any boiler that had a Minor 1.
A warning, in this weather, make sure that you heat your house somehow - pipes can burst in this weather - especially in an outside boilerhouse.
Jim.

GatsbyDub

JamesM wrote: »

The oil line goes into the bottom of the oil pump. The solenoid coil sits on the top of the oil pump. Either take the nut off the top, or pull the plug (like a small kettle type). From what you say about the hissing sound, it sounds a sif that sound is the spark - so you probably have a spark. Unfortunately the Minor 1 can have lots of other problems. Most people stopped using it about '93 or '94. The solenoid may not be opening and letting the oil through - a faulty coil is very common. To check this, take the nut off the top of the coil, hold the coil in your fingers, and lift it slightly. Turn on the burner, after about 10 secs, you should feel a vibration in your fingers, as the coil tries to open. If there is no vibration, the coil is dead. There can be other problems with this burnes, another common one is the coupling between the motor and the oil pump wears away very quickly.
To be honest, I would say, don't put any money into this burner, get a new one - less than €300 for a Riello G3 - works very well in any boiler that had a Minor 1.
A warning, in this weather, make sure that you heat your house somehow - pipes can burst in this weather - especially in an outside boilerhouse.
Jim.

Jim, thanks for all the help and advice. I think I'll just go and buy a Riello G3 tomorrow. I have a Grant 50-90 Easy Clean boiler running on kerosene.
How many rads will the Riello heat?

I'll get it in Barrett's of Maynooth. I think it is €285.

GatsbyDub.

JamesM

A G3 matches a Grant 50-90 perfectly. 50 to 90 thousand BTUs is the output of the boiler. You could use a RDB, but a G3 is fine. Ther may be a .60 or .65 nozzle fitted to the burner when you get it. The air shutter may be open a bit more than necessary (to make sure that it does not soot up). 3 to 4 on the air shutter is probably the best setting. Really an expert should set it up. The flame should look very clean without too much blue in it (almost none). Definitely no smokey tips, or visable smoke.
Jim.

GatsbyDub

JamesM wrote: »

A G3 matches a Grant 50-90 perfectly. 50 to 90 thousand BTUs is the output of the boiler. You could use a RDB, but a G3 is fine. Ther may be a .60 or .65 nozzle fitted to the burner when you get it. The air shutter may be open a bit more than necessary (to make sure that it does not soot up). 3 to 4 on the air shutter is probably the best setting. Really an expert should set it up. The flame should look very clean without too much blue in it (almost none). Definitely no smokey tips, or visable smoke.
Jim.

Thanks, Jim. I haven't time to get an expert to fit it. The house is like an ice box and the wife isn't well.

I have a false gas fire in the sitting room and she's in there. Otherwise I'd be fermucked.

People should really have two forms of heating. If there's a power cut, at least you can light gas and heat at least one room. Same for a real fire without back boiler.

I'll be sick, though, having bought a new burner if there was only a slight fault in the minor 1. Anyway, it owes us nothing. We have it at least 15 years.

I found an old 3.5uf capacitor sitting on the boiler. When we got somebody out before to fix it, he obviously had to replace that.

What was that out of? The control box?

If i want to add extra rads in the future will the Riello G3 suffice? Should I go for a better burner, in case?

Thanks again,

GatsbyDub.

JamesM

The 3.5uf capacitor was probably for the burner motor. (although might have been in the circulating pump).
The top boiler output is 90 thousand BTUs, and the G3 can handle that. You could use an RDB, but I would be happy with a G3. It will take a .75 or 1.00gal nozzle.
As you buy it, a G3 will burn and run OK. It would probably be better if you got an expert to check it out, when the weather eases off.
Whatever you do, don't connect the earth where it says "don't connect earth"
Jim.

GatsbyDub

JamesM wrote: »

The 3.5uf capacitor was probably for the burner motor. (although might have been in the circulating pump).
The top boiler output is 90 thousand BTUs, and the G3 can handle that. You could use an RDB, but I would be happy with a G3. It will take a .75 or 1.00gal nozzle.
As you buy it, a G3 will burn and run OK. It would probably be better if you got an expert to check it out, when the weather eases off.
Whatever you do, don't connect the earth where it says "don't connect earth"
Jim.

Thanks, Jim.

I'm going to fit it meself, tomorrow. Speak well of me at the inquest!

Gats.

JamesM

The booklet should show you how to connect it up. Also, do not turn the adjusting screw on the oil pump when you are trying to bleed the burner. The allen screw on the side of the pump is the one for that.
Jim.

GatsbyDub

JamesM wrote: »

The booklet should show you how to connect it up. Also, do not turn the adjusting screw on the oil pump when you are trying to bleed the burner. The allen screw on the side of the pump is the one for that.
Jim.

You there, Jim?

JamesM

GatsbyDub wrote: »

You there, Jim?

Are you getting worried :eek:

GatsbyDub

JamesM wrote: »

Are you getting worried :eek:

An exact match for the Grant 50-90?

The flange of the Riello G3B would not butt up the boiler casing. Had to hand carve a shape in The blue outer casing of the Grant easy clean.

Got that sorted. Could'nt figure out how to change the air pressure to between 3 and 4, so left it as shipped.

Had everything set up and the hose supplied with the Riello woudn't fit the ''fire safety valve. The hose was larger than the one on the Minor 1.

Went to B&Q tonight to get a valve that would take a 10mm in and a 10mm thread for the hose.

And....of course....they didn't have one. So, I just got a coupling 10mm to 10mm and am hoping it'll do the job until I source the correct 'in-line' valve. Suggestions on that, please.

I told you the house was like an 'ice box', so I phoned Barrett's of Maynooth at 8 this morning so that I would catch the delivery guy. They said it would be with me at 12.30. I phoned them at 1 to see where he was. He was in Balbriggan with me burner. I live in Leixlip, so he had to pass the area to get to Balbriggan.

Again I read the instructions, removed the Minor 1 etc, Barrett's were closed. That's why I went to B&Q.

Do I use PTFE tape on the thread from the hose to the fitting. I took the olive and cap off it to screw the hose on to one end.

aaaaAAAAAAAARRRRRRGH!

JamesM

As far as I remember, you take off the front casing on that boiler (2 screws at the top) - no need to cut it. Then the flange bolts to the boiler.
Leave the air adjustment alone.
The bag of fittings should have a 3/8th nipple that will screw into the (usual) 3/8th fire valve. (unscrew the nipple that is already screwed into the fire valve). Use PTFE tape. The flexible oil line will then connect to this. You may have an unusual fire valve with male threads (not very common).
Jim.

nissan14

were can you buy the salonide