What am I doing wrong?

Brunt

Hi,

Firstly, I have used the boards now for quite a while (though I dont really post). Have gotten such great info from here in the last few weeks - Thanks!

I hope someone more learned than myself can help me out here. I am reasonably fit/strong, and train hard and regularly enough. I think I have a good diet, and have cleaned it up a lot in the last 3 months - but my bodyfat is not going down (its crept up from 18% to 20% as measured on one of those weighing scales with BF monitor).

Here is me:
6ft 6", 16 stone, mid twenties. circa 20% BF. Play rugby and,during the off season, i train with weights.

Here is my training:
I train for rugby twice a week with a match almost every weekend. I play at a reasonable level - its pretty competitive (AIL div 3), not a social league or anything. So thats 3 high intensity 2 hour "workouts" a week with a mix of anaerobic (sprints, scrummaging, general rugby etc) and aerobic stuff.

Here is my diet:
Breakfast - 7am - Big bowl of porridge w/mixed seeds & wheat germ & teaspoon of golden syrup. Protein shake (30gms protein) w/ 5gms Creatine

Snack - 10am - Banana & handful of Mixed Nuts (almonds, brazil, walnuts, cashews) & Knoor Vie veg shot.

Lunch - 1230pm - Carvery (only a little gravy) or brown deli roll w/soup

Afternoon Snack - 430pm - Small Tuna Sandwich w/brown bread & orange

Pre-training - 630pm - 2 scoops of Xplode 2

Post-training - 9pm - 2 scoops Progain w/5gms Creatine

Dinner - 10pm - Stir fry (tiny bit of olive oil, 2 chicken breasts, lots of veg, tiny bit of sauce, and sometimes a handful of noodles)

I know i shouldnt eat this late but have to eat after training! On days when I am not training, I dont take the Xplode2, and i take regular protein instead of the progain, and eat my dinner round 7pm instead. At weekends, I will have eggs and toast for lunch. Probably one 'cheat' meal a week. Not a big drinker - I wouldnt have more than 2-3 pints of guinness one night a week. I drink lots of water every fay (4-5 litres), and no coffee.

My problem is I cant shift the belly. I am pretty big and well built except for this belly hanging out which i cant shift. I just know there is a killer six pack under it! Dont want to cut calories down because I feel I need them for training.

Is there something blatant that I am doing wrong here? Or is there anything additional I can do to get the results I want (ie: lose the excess fat, without sacrificing muscle or too many calories).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Brunt

aye

only thing i can think of is 1) maybe its just your genetics? or 2) you are taking too much protein, which is being turned into fat.

the carvey and the stir fry aint the best things, but as you say, you do a fair amount of training.

what way do you eat on days you don't train?

would you consider going to a nutritionist to see if they have any say on it?

Colm_OReilly

A couple of things:

BF measurements are pretty inaccurate unfortunately. So we can't really say whether your BF has gone up, down or stayed the same.

Looking at your diet, the porridge, brown bread, and maybe potatoes with the carvery aren't helping shed the belly. There might be a lot of carbohydrate in your shakes as well. Try to reduce the carbs and compensate with fats for energy (if you're feeling lethargic).

Is the six pack a performance thing or vanity thing? Does the extra bulk suit your position in rugby? Again I'm not sure what position you play, and whether backs have visisible washerboard abs (I'm fairly certain most forwards don't)

Are you working out other than the rugby sessions. Could you get in an extra session or two on the off training days? Without sacrificing game performance of course.

Col

g'em

Hi Brunt!

Brunt wrote: »

but my bodyfat is not going down (its crept up from 18% to 20% as measured on one of those weighing scales with BF monitor).

ugh, IGNORE those things, those machines are terribly inaccurate and don't tend to give event a remotely correct bodyfat figure!! The mirror and callipers are a much better guage.

Your diet is really very, very good - plenty of good fats, lean meats and I wouldn't worry at all about eating so late at night, if it's post-training you need the energy, simple as.

Is there any reason why you do weights only in the off-season? Is your rugby training is hard enough to maintain good lean muscle mass?

The "train harder" message may not apply here because you're already doing a lot of work but not seeing the results you want, so perhaps you'll need to strip things back even further.

Drop the Knorr Vie (waste of money and marketing bleugh) and the Progain (carb-a-licious sugar-fest), replacing it with regular protein. By all means make your post-training meal a carb-heavy one, but the 10pm stir-fry with noodles should do the trick here.

Cut starchy carbs in either your lunch or mid-afternoon meals - you'll still get oats for brekkie, carbs post workout and potatoes or bread during either one of your daytime meals so it's not like you won't be energy-inefficient. Fill up with green veg wherever possible and keep your nut portions small.

The fear of being low in energy is what keeps a lot of people in sports eating too much, but if you gradually drop a few bits here and there you'll realise that your body compensates very quickly, and you won't be anywhere near a calorie deficit.

Brunt

I am ashamed to admit that the 6 pack is a vanity thing!

Degsy

Brunt wrote: »

I am ashamed to admit that the 6 pack is a vanity thing!

isnt it allways?

Brunt

Thanks for the replies.

G'em - I dont do weights during the season as I find it a bit too much. The weights leave me too stiff/sore/tired during training sessions. And I think training is tough enough to maintain most lean mass / strength gained during a summer of weights (offseason). Probably lose a bit of it alright, but not too much.

celestial

Brunt wrote: »

Hi,

Firstly, I have used the boards now for quite a while (though I dont really post). Have gotten such great info from here in the last few weeks - Thanks!

I hope someone more learned than myself can help me out here. I am reasonably fit/strong, and train hard and regularly enough. I think I have a good diet, and have cleaned it up a lot in the last 3 months - but my bodyfat is not going down (its crept up from 18% to 20% as measured on one of those weighing scales with BF monitor).

Here is me:
6ft 6", 16 stone, mid twenties. circa 20% BF. Play rugby and,during the off season, i train with weights.

Here is my training:
I train for rugby twice a week with a match almost every weekend. I play at a reasonable level - its pretty competitive (AIL div 3), not a social league or anything. So thats 3 high intensity 2 hour "workouts" a week with a mix of anaerobic (sprints, scrummaging, general rugby etc) and aerobic stuff.

Here is my diet:
Breakfast - 7am - Big bowl of porridge w/mixed seeds & wheat germ & teaspoon of golden syrup. Protein shake (30gms protein) w/ 5gms Creatine

Snack - 10am - Banana & handful of Mixed Nuts (almonds, brazil, walnuts, cashews) & Knoor Vie veg shot.

Lunch - 1230pm - Carvery (only a little gravy) or brown deli roll w/soup

Afternoon Snack - 430pm - Small Tuna Sandwich w/brown bread & orange

Pre-training - 630pm - 2 scoops of Xplode 2

Post-training - 9pm - 2 scoops Progain w/5gms Creatine

Dinner - 10pm - Stir fry (tiny bit of olive oil, 2 chicken breasts, lots of veg, tiny bit of sauce, and sometimes a handful of noodles)

I know i shouldnt eat this late but have to eat after training! On days when I am not training, I dont take the Xplode2, and i take regular protein instead of the progain, and eat my dinner round 7pm instead. At weekends, I will have eggs and toast for lunch. Probably one 'cheat' meal a week. Not a big drinker - I wouldnt have more than 2-3 pints of guinness one night a week. I drink lots of water every fay (4-5 litres), and no coffee.

My problem is I cant shift the belly. I am pretty big and well built except for this belly hanging out which i cant shift. I just know there is a killer six pack under it! Dont want to cut calories down because I feel I need them for training.

Is there something blatant that I am doing wrong here? Or is there anything additional I can do to get the results I want (ie: lose the excess fat, without sacrificing muscle or too many calories).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Brunt

Hi Brunt,

A few things come to mind here:

1) You are not actually all that overweight. You're 6'6" and 16 stone! I am 9 inches shorter than you but only 2 and a half stone lighter, and there is many a man around my height and in the 13-16 stone range. I am not what you'd call fat, but I do have a bit of a belly, so at the same time see where you are coming from.

2) The biggest thing that comes out of your post is that you may actually be eating more than you think, and eating more than you are burning off. You don't indicate your portion sizes or the exact details of what you are eating. For example 'carvery' - is this a big portion of spuds with your meat and gravy? Re your stir fry -Do you need to eat that much soon before bed (two chicken breasts) - could you not make do with a few eggs, and then a piece of fruit.

3) Do you do any weight training? If not, would you consider doing some on your non-training days. Building muscle is a great way to boost metabolism and burn extra calories by just sitting around doing nothing.

I'd add a bit more detail to what you've written above in terms of exact foods and portion sizes but the bottom line is if you keep doing what you are already doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting. You may have to look closely at what you're eating and reduce it by maybe 5-10%.

g'em

Brunt wrote: »

G'em - I dont do weights during the season as I find it a bit too much. The weights leave me too stiff/sore/tired during training sessions. And I think training is tough enough to maintain most lean mass / strength gained during a summer of weights (offseason). Probably lose a bit of it alright, but not too much.

Ah fair enough. If you're sore from it I'd guess that means you push yourself a lot and suffer from DOMS a good bit?

Open question to the more knowledgable lifters - would circuit-type training be an idea here: nothing super-heavy but enough to ensure it's anaerobically taxing but efficient? Concentrating on explosive power lifts and rehab/prehab work? I'd just be slightly concerned that rugby training alone might not be enough to maintain lean mass?

As always correct me if I'm way off the mark

rubadub

Have you calculated your actual calorie intake. You say a "big bowl", I used to be able to eat 1000kcal of museli easliy.

A "handful" of nuts could be a lot, esp. a 6.5ft rugby players hands. And how much noodles, a normal pack of supernoodles is 5-600kcal alone.

It is all too easy to eat to much if you are not weighing/measureing right.

mack1

aye wrote: »

only thing i can think of is 1) maybe its just your genetics? or 2) you are taking too much protein, which is being turned into fat.

the carvey and the stir fry aint the best things, but as you say, you do a fair amount of training.

what way do you eat on days you don't train?

would you consider going to a nutritionist to see if they have any say on it?

Protein doesn't turn to fat - I don;t know where you got that from.

Agree, the carvery is not a good idea - but a stir fry is no bad thing (as long as it's not doused in sauce!)

As Colm & g'em said, you are eating a fair amount of carbs - overall your diet looks good, but the lunch is the weak point that stands out, a big carvery lunch or a roll it not a good idea.
Personally I try limit carbs to pre and post training and breakfast only, so you may want to try dropping them from lunch.

Also, as said above, 6 packs are always for vanity - but wouldn't having bodyfat low enough to display ab muscles be a bad thing for a rugby player? even a back? (that not me being facetious there, I'm actually asking)

aye

mack1 wrote: »

Protein doesn't turn to fat - I don;t know where you got that from.

True, what i meant was that he may be having too many protein shakes, which contain fat, carbs and calories.

Colm_OReilly

Open question to the more knowledgable lifters - would circuit-type training be an idea here: nothing super-heavy but enough to ensure it's anaerobically taxing but efficient? Concentrating on explosive power lifts and rehab/prehab work? I'd just be slightly concerned that rugby training alone might not be enough to maintain lean mass?

There's more knowledgable lifters than you!? Don't you have world records!?

What I'm thinking (CF warning) is that Oly style lifts and sprints would be excellent training for rugby.

If we look at rugby, they've to transfer force along unusual angles (particularly at the break down) so OHS would really benefit these players. They get the balance/stablity in the midline needed to get the power generated by the hips into the rucks/mauls. Couple these with sprints and you've one hell of a workout.

Power cleans would be something else I'd advice for rugby players. Again coupling them with press ups/pull ups/sprints/box jumps/skipping rope would be a good workout.

Brunt, no worries about the vanity thing, I was just trying to show that maybe a certain % of BF is necessary even at high level rugby.

Could you add in one strength/conditioning day after matches. (If you play sat, workout sunday/monday, train again Tues?) A couple of deads/squats mightn't kill you. Remember in season you are in maintenence mode, so you're not really looking to get stronger.

Hope this helps,
Col

Brunt

Thanks for all the replies. Much appreciated.

Colm - you are right - I should try to get at least 1 night in the gym in. Presume I would do somthing like this...
Squats
Deadlifts
Pullups
Bench (mix of incline/flat)
Upright row
Some core work

Brunt

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

If we look at rugby, they've to transfer force along unusual angles (particularly at the break down) so OHS would really benefit these players. They get the balance/stablity in the midline needed to get the power generated by the hips into the rucks/mauls.

PS - What is 'OHS' ?

mack1

Brunt wrote: »

PS - What is 'OHS' ?

Overhead Squat.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/OverheadSquat.html

rubadub

mack1 wrote: »

Overhead Squat.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/OverheadSquat.html

Try it with NO weight on the bar first, actually no bar at all first! You were warned!

Leon11

Brunt I know how you feel man. I'd play at a similar level also and know how hard it can be to recover from the matches. I'm guessing your a second row or an underweight 8!

At the moment I take Mondays off just some light cardio to get the muscles loosened up.

Tuesday would be weights in the morning, I do legs on this day because these take the longest to recover from imo. In the evening I'd go training.

Wednesday I'd look to get chest and arm work in. Again I try to get a morning session in if I'm not too stiff from the day before.

Thursday I do the back in the morning and train in the evening.

Friday I just try to do a half hours cycling or gentle rowing before college again to loosen up and get rid of any tightness etc.

Saturday/Sunday is match day, could be both AIL and J1 at the weekend.

I'm 6"4, 110kgs.

What I've done lately again is to look at where I can cut out my dependence on so much carbs. I'm in the lucky position that I'm in college so I'd generally have more time than your average person but some things I've found helpful to dropping BF is to cut out carbs from every meal and see what you have to eat. Then add in carbs(from potatos, noodles, bread etc) for when ya need them! You'll prob notice you can come up with a few decent meals without the need for any carbs whatsoever.

My diet the past week looks something like

Breakfast: 4egg whites, 2 yolks, Small bit of cheese, 1/2 Mug Porridge, Milk and bit of Honey

After the gym: 2-3 scoops ram

Snack: Yoghurt and 10-15 Walnut Halves, One chicken Fillet

Lunch: Tuna, Olives, Peppers and a Salad, slice of wholegrain bread

Snack: 2 scoops protein, walnuts/cashews

Dinner: Mainly made up of broccoli/m&s cabbage (the only one I can eat), 1/2tablespoons mash and meat/fish

Post Training: Usually a sandwhich filled with Chicken, Cheese and some veg

It's not perfect but is working for me, I could afford to get more fruit/veg in at times.

In season I'd advise against doing additional sprints if your working full time as I'd see more benefit if you were to adopt even a twice weekly gym session. doesn't have to be maximal effort as it's quite taxing on the system to improve your strength in season(not saying it's impossible but you need plenty of rest and if your working ft that's gonna be unlikely)

When you get the 2/3 week break in Feb I'd suggest that you could afford to do a blowout sprint session on a Saturday morning.

Hope this helps, you might pick out one or two things that can help improve you etc. As you know yourself the most important thing to do is to rest so Sunday/Monday use it, try to do as little as possible and the 24/48 hours should allow you to do 1 or 2 gym sessions a week which can help reduce your bf.

How Strange

[QUOTE=g'em;
ugh, IGNORE those things, those machines are terribly inaccurate and don't tend to give event a remotely correct bodyfat figure!! The mirror and callipers are a much better guage. [/QUOTE]

I had an assessment in the gym today and my body fat ratio was 31% :eek:
I saw on the chart that this means I'm unfit ... I can run 10k quite comfortably, I'm a size 10 with a BMI of 23 but I'm unfit in terms of body fat! Granted I need to tone up but that just doesn't make sense.

I also found out I'm 5' 2" not 5' 3"

g'em

How Strange wrote: »

I had an assessment in the gym today and my body fat ratio was 31% :eek:
I saw on the chart that this means I'm unfit ... I can run 10k quite comfortably, I'm a size 10 with a BMI of 23 but I'm unfit in terms of body fat! Granted I need to tone up but that just doesn't make sense.

Tou're right, that makes no sense at all and is more than likely wrong. Seriously though, crap machines, crap readings, crap accuracy.

How Strange wrote:

I also found out I'm 5' 2" not 5' 3"

Take your height first thing in the morning - you should be 5' 3" again

How Strange

I remember going to the YMCA gym years ago and the guy assessing me had this pincher thing. He pinched my arm, leg, stomach etc (no he wasn't a pervert; apparently that was the technology at the time) anyway, I'd have more faith in that as he used some calculation to work out your body fat based on what he could pinch.

Oh bring back the good aul days! I was 5' 4" back then. :rolleyes:

g'em

How Strange wrote: »

I remember going to the YMCA gym years ago and the guy assessing me had this pincher thing.

Callipers - they're one of the more reliable (consistent) ways to measure bodyfat. You can buy them to use yourself, easy as pie and a handy way to keep track of progress.

@ Leon11 - lovely post!

BossArky

How Strange wrote: »

I had an assessment in the gym today and my body fat ratio was 31% :eek:
I saw on the chart that this means I'm unfit ... I can run 10k quite comfortably, I'm a size 10 with a BMI of 23 but I'm unfit in terms of body fat! Granted I need to tone up but that just doesn't make sense.

I also found out I'm 5' 2" not 5' 3"

I had an optional work medical last week. The doc gave me all the results last week in person and said stuff along the lines of the results being the best he had seen in ages (apart from brutal posture & a need to increase my VO2 max).

Now, yesterday in the post he sent through a written document summarising the results. It was quite funny.

One paragraph said my bodyfat was 8.4% and very good...lower than the supposed average of 12-15%.

In the next paragraph my BMI was stated as slightly over 25 and I was warned to watch my weight :eek:

Obviously these two measurements totally contradict each other and I know the doc probably was just copying and pasting from a template and forgot to factor in stuff such as level of activity & muscle stuff.

Still though..

edit - apparently I've also grown 1/4 of an inch - wohoo!

Colm_OReilly

I suppose we need to clarify if Brunt is looking for maintaining/increasing strength or fitness during the in season (we've now strayed away from the original question)

Leon,
Can I ask why you feel the need to do a split routine? Do you mind posting your routine for us?

thanks,
Colm

Brunt

Thanks for all the replies.

Leon - I would be interested in seeing your routine if you get a chance to post it up.

I guess the goal is to maintain strength/size during the season. Difficult to get the intensity required to build mass, get signicant increases in strength during the season. (but that doesnt mean I cant lose some fat during the season!)

rubadub

BossArky wrote: »

I had an optional work medical last week. The doc gave me all the results last week in person and said stuff along the lines of the results being the best he had seen in ages (apart from brutal posture & a need to increase my VO2 max).

Now, yesterday in the post he sent through a written document summarising the results. It was quite funny.

One paragraph said my bodyfat was 8.4% and very good...lower than the supposed average of 12-15%.

In the next paragraph my BMI was stated as slightly over 25 and I was warned to watch my weight :eek:

Obviously these two measurements totally contradict each other and I know the doc probably was just copying and pasting from a template and forgot to factor in stuff such as level of activity & muscle stuff.

Still though..

edit - apparently I've also grown 1/4 of an inch - wohoo!

Funny, but disgraceful, he is incompetent and I hope you warn your company against employing such an idiot again, shouldnt be allowed practice medicine, hope it was an oversight.

And I imagine the 12-15%BF is the "ideal", the average must be huge. It is not like average height, where you can usually range from 5-7ft, I presume the normal range would be 4-50%, the the average is probably huge, i.e. thing people will not skew it too much as they can only go so low, while fat people could be massive.

Leon11

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Can I ask why you feel the need to do a split routine? Do you mind posting your routine for us?

The reason I do it is because I want to do 3 gym sessions a week. Given that I need to rest Monday and Friday I think it's best in my situation to do a 3 day split. If I wanted I could do a 2 day total body type but that doesn't appeal to me.

As I said earlier I like my leg and chest work out of the way by Wednesday since it takes me longer to recover from such sessions coupled with the additional training I do in the evenings. When I do my back (ie deadlifts, pull-ups) I can recover quite quickly, so if I do them on a Thursday morning I know that by 7pm on Friday evening I'm completely rested.

The workouts look something similar to this, of course they change if I pick up knocks etc but the fundamentals of each one is similar. I'd Hanley do this up for me, it's done in mind with increasing strength so mightn't be to Brunt's needs but is a pretty good template none the less in my opinion.

Tuesday
Step Ups 3x8 (should be squats but flexibility needs more work still!!!)
Leg Press 1x6, 1x8, 1x10, 1x12
Leg Curls 4x12
Hanging Leg Raises 3x10
Hammer Curls 3x12

Wednesday
Bench 3x5
Dumbbell Bench 3-4x10-12
Shoulder Press 3x6
Lateral Raises 3x10-12
Chest Supported Rows 3x10-12
Int/Ext Shoulder Rotations 3x6

Thursday
Chins 3x10
Deadlifts 3x5
RDL's 3x10
Shrugs 3x8
Pulldowns 3x12
Barbell Curls 3x8

I lift lads that weigh anything up to 120kgs so shoulder work in the gym isn't a major concern for me during the season. That said I still do a small bit of work to address the possibility of imbalances occuring.

I suppose we need to clarify if Brunt is looking for maintaining/increasing strength or fitness during the in season

Think he said in his first post he wanted rid of the belly. To be honest he could do this easily enough if he'd a fairly strict diet given that he's training/playing intensely 2/3 times a week. But where's the fun in having a strict diet:D

johnathan woss

If you can't do squats try goblet squats. Hold a heavy dumbbell right in front of your chest vertically (like a goblet) and squat, keeping your back straight. I find this a good way to practice going deeper.

Although I read in an article a while ago that the Bulgarian olympic weight lifting team prefer step-ups to squats anyway....

hardtrainer

With regard to the original question, you're simply eating too many carbs for the amount of training you're doing to see any noticeable drop in bodyfat. A carvery can easily clock up 1200 cals and thats without too much gravy.
I agree with g'em, progain is too sugary and high carb and a plain and simple protein shake would be fine here, especially given that you're eating a meal before bed.