Going rate for an ASP.NET developer?

mathie

Hi
Im wondering what the going rate for a web developer with ASP.NET / C# skills is.
8 years experience in web development (5 1/2 - 6 ASP / 2 - 2 1/2 ASP.NET / C#)
Any ideas appreciated!
Thanks
M

Evil Phil

Contract or permanent?

mathie

Sorry either contract or permanent!
Thanks
M

Evil Phil

Any where between €300 - €500 per day for contract.

mathie

Evil Phil wrote: »

Any where between €300 - €500 per day for contract.

Thanks and perm?
M

Evil Phil

Dunno, I'm a contractor.

Ginger

Perm in Ireland anything from 40 to 55Kfor just development, 70K or more if you are doing architect level stuff and some more if you are certified etc and they farm you out to other companies..

Again depends on the company.

Seachmall

Don;t mean to hijack the thread but what about PHP developers? I assume it roughly the same (perhaps slightly less?). Just curious.

Ginger

Depends on experience but usually 30 to 40K. The main reason is that its old tech at this stage (similar to classic ASP).

The other thing is that ASP.NET devs should be able to turn their hands to other parts of the framework (such as Windows programing and Web services) and products such as MOSS and BizTalk without needing too much upskilling time.

This is not to say that PHP devs are any less talented there just seems to be more of them so the the cost to hire them is less as their is a bigger pool to fish from.

Seachmall

I see. I thought there would be a drop but not that much. I thought PHP was the fastest growing language online or am I wrong or is that why there are so many PHP developers?

leeroybrown

The problem is that PHP is usually the easiest entry point for someone who wants to throw together some web scripts. There are also so many PHP based web packages for content management, blogs, galleries, wikis, etc that people tend to get familiar with it by looking at them. Consequently there are a lot of people who have some experience with it. While I like PHP's ease of use for simple things in my experience this also tends to result in lots of poor quality unmaintainable throw-away code.

Conversely, I reckon that a lot less people wander into ASP.Net quite like that. I would also suggest that ASP.Net is one of the areas with a slight shortage of people at the moment and that a lot of the jobs in it tend to be with companies doing 'enterprise' stuff which might nudge the salary up a bit too.

pwd

I think that because .net is a framework you can generally get effective reults far faster than php etc - not so much boilerplate crap etc. Though I've minimal exposure to php so I could be wrong

adm

Ginger wrote: »

The main reason is that its old tech at this stage (similar to classic ASP).

No its not ... at all.

pwd

adm wrote: »

No its not ... at all.

No offence, but I hate posts like this - ones that just flatly contradict someone without any explanation or information.

Kai

Jees looks like i need to have a chat about my salary. Im on 33 a year and do asp.net, web services, windows services, along with all the Database stuff. Have about 3 ears exp in .net at this stage and maybe 4 with SQL Server.

Ginger

The above salary recommendation was based on the experience of the dev in the OP. 3 to 4 years experience you should be looking around 35 to 40K depending on your project experience whether its just small projects or enterprise class development.

grahamor

Kai wrote: »

Jees looks like i need to have a chat about my salary. Im on 33 a year and do asp.net, web services, windows services, along with all the Database stuff. Have about 3 ears exp in .net at this stage and maybe 4 with SQL Server.

You should go contracting for a while and make some real money! you could easily get 300-350 a day.

Ginger

You should come to Norway, 950NOK per hour.. About 120€ per hour

00sully

Kai wrote: »

Jees looks like i need to have a chat about my salary. Im on 33 a year and do asp.net, web services, windows services, along with all the Database stuff. Have about 3 ears exp in .net at this stage and maybe 4 with SQL Server.

yes you certainly do. I was on that last year with 1 years experience in just sql. you need to get a salary review or else go contracting!

+ I'd say with 4-6 years exp you should be looking at 50k+ easy. If you were contracting you should be looking for €400+ a day

stevenmu

It can depend very much on the type of work you do aswell though. Writing code is generally considered the most basic task and therefore commands the most basic salary. Adding on things like requirements gathering/analysis, customer facing, team leading, project management etc can add on good sized jumps in salary. As can contracting.

adm

pwd wrote: »

No offence, but I hate posts like this - ones that just flatly contradict someone without any explanation or information.

My apologies.It was late and i was knackered!
Classic asp is a long dead language (wasn't even a language actually but thats another story).
Php on the other hand continues to be actively developed
and new versions are released all the time.
Its now up to version 5.x . included in php 5 was major overhaul
of php's OOP capabilities , so while it's been around for a long time ,comparing it to classic asp is not correct at all.
facebook and amazon (both top 10 sites) use php.

Kernel32

adm wrote: »

My apologies.It was late and i was knackered!
Classic asp is a long dead language (wasn't even a language actually but thats another story).
Php on the other hand continues to be actively developed
and new versions are released all the time.
Its now up to version 5.x . included in php 5 was major overhaul
of php's OOP capabilities , so while it's been around for a long time ,comparing it to classic asp is not correct at all.
facebook and amazon (both top 10 sites) use php.

This is all true, but it doesn't matter. It's not what the situation is with any technology, it's how the situation is perceived by decision makers. PHP may be used on some big sites but for general purpose software used in business software development it lags behind other technologies, like .Net and Java. You can argue right or wrong on that all day, but that is how the business market views PHP.

As another example, Foxpro even though considered dead was maintained and upgraded for years. It was recently retired. It was a ahead of it's counterparts for years and some of it's features were/are being moved to VB.Net. But who cares? No one does apart from the few old Foxpro programmers.

In the minds of many people PHP had it's day when classic ASP was around. They were competing platforms for web development. With the rise of ASP.Net and the decline of ASP many people also associate that with a decline in PHP.

CelloPoint

Kernel32 wrote: »

This is all true, but it doesn't matter. It's not what the situation is with any technology, it's how the situation is perceived by decision makers. PHP may be used on some big sites but for general purpose software used in business software development it lags behind other technologies, like .Net and Java. You can argue right or wrong on that all day, but that is how the business market views PHP.

As another example, Foxpro even though considered dead was maintained and upgraded for years. It was recently retired. It was a ahead of it's counterparts for years and some of it's features were/are being moved to VB.Net. But who cares? No one does apart from the few old Foxpro programmers.

In the minds of many people PHP had it's day when classic ASP was around. They were competing platforms for web development. With the rise of ASP.Net and the decline of ASP many people also associate that with a decline in PHP.

Linux is opensource. Google and Yahoo can't be wrong. PHP is a proven enterprise technology amongst organisations that aren't dictated to by the peddlers of fear at the Microsoft sales department.

PHP, Eclipse and a Linux server gives comparable efficiency to an ASP.NET solution on visual studio running on a microsoft server. But if your organisation already implements MS technology en masse, it does make sense to apply the MS know-how to ASP.NET and not bother with PHP.

Ginger

As was said above about perception and also supply and demand. There tends to be more PHP programmers than .NET at the moment because the framework covers so many things under the same name.

What I found was I was getting at least 1 to 2 calls a day from recruiters when i was looking passively and then when i went actively looking I had 5 interviews in 2 days. Just the way the market is at the moment.

Hobbes

Ginger wrote: »

The above salary recommendation was based on the experience of the dev in the OP. 3 to 4 years experience you should be looking around 35 to 40K depending on your project experience whether its just small projects or enterprise class development.

The other thing to take into account on the perm end is benefits. For example, free medical, pension, life assurance, bonus, other payment inititives and perks. If your starting off Perm on 35k and that is all your getting then that is pretty crap.

dzy

Like the others say, .NET and Java are perceived to be more 'enterprisey'. If you are a software company selling to large enterprises, its easier to go in with a .NET/Java solution than a PHP one. Its largely marketting and perception.

As a result, most software jobs going now are .NET or Java based.

Evil Phil

CelloPoint wrote: »

PHP is a proven enterprise technology amongst organisations that aren't dictated to by the peddlers of fear at the Microsoft sales department.

Hillarious. Seriously, do you really think MS dictate to other organisations? The reason .Net and Asp.Net have taken off is based on the merit of the technology. At this stage Java and .Net are mature, stable frameworks, they can be trusted.

.Net is shall we say "less forgiving" then some other dev platforms in that its difficult to get away with crap code. Not so with some languages including php.

I'm not saying php is bad, its a brilliant language if you want my opinion, but its not the only one. Don't go Microsoft bashing just because .Net is currently more popular than php.

shortcorner

Hi there,
Very interesting post. I started teaching myself vb.net and sql server in the last three to four years and I have completed a few private projects/websites. I dont have any formal qualifications. Where would one go to get their foot in the door and maybe make a career out of it.
Many thanks
Anthony

dzy

shortcorner wrote: »

Hi there,
Very interesting post. I started teaching myself vb.net and sql server in the last three to four years and I have completed a few private projects/websites. I dont have any formal qualifications. Where would one go to get their foot in the door and maybe make a career out of it.
Many thanks
Anthony

Take a look at the jobs websites such as http://www.jobs.ie and see what companies are doing ASP.NET development.

All the ads state some IT qualification as a minimum requirement to apply, but maybe you can point them in the direction of something from your portfolio instead. Since, as was pointed out, there are more jobs than available people at the moment, perhaps they would be willing to bring you in for interview.

As you say, all you need is to get your foot in the door. Perhaps a good route is to try to get *some* position within one of these companies to begin with. Perhaps a testing role. If they see that you are generally competent you could then ask to be moved into a coding position.

I'd say go for it

shortcorner

Thanks dzy, I may try that.
Just to show 2 of the small projects I did,
www.acusupply.ie - sql server database, admin section and online shop(this needs work done, my first project!)
www.flynnconcrete.com - brochure style website with xml datasource

Maybe let me know your opinion

Thanks

dzy

shortcorner wrote: »

Thanks dzy, I may try that.
Just to show 2 of the small projects I did,
www.acusupply.ie - sql server database, admin section and online shop(this needs work done, my first project!)
www.flynnconcrete.com - brochure style website with xml datasource

Maybe let me know your opinion

Thanks

Sorry for the late reply. I just took a look at your websites. In both cases, the functionality all seems to be there, but I think the layout is letting you down a little.

Perhaps the sites would be better served with a simpler, cleaner layout. I'd try to keep the page width smaller than 760px to avoid horizontal scrolling and the navigation menu more standard (eg. the downloads section on the Flynn Concrete site).

I'm bad with layout myself. But normally in a web development company you have a web designer take care of how the pages look and you can concentrate on the functionality.

What you are trying to prove with your portfolio is that you can create functional websites. Employers will be more concerned with this. So try to keep just a simple, clean layout.

Zan

php is a good language, but it is a scripting language that is interpreted at runtime. This is perfect for non enterprise apps... but it also means that it doesn't support n-tier / distributed architecture and a whole raft of other "Enterprise" business requirements, this is because a php page starts at the top and runs to the end, this makes it very difficult to stop half way through and run off to a different server in the network to do some processing.

lastly php is web only. .Net and Java are not limited to web only.

though in saying that I am seeing more and more php jobs being advertised, usually information portals for corporate front ends, which is all good as a means to get your foot in the enterprise door. but in reality all the good programming tasks happen a bit deeper in the Intranet and is done in compiled languages.

Also to those that quote google and yahoo as hiring php devs. yes they are. but they both hire more C# developers than they do php and more java than either.

dzy

Zan wrote: »

php is a good language, but it is a scripting language that is interpreted at runtime. This is perfect for non enterprise apps... but it also means that it doesn't support n-tier / distributed architecture and a whole raft of other "Enterprise" business requirements

Why does the fact that it is interpreted mean that it does not support a distributed architecture?

this is because a php page starts at the top and runs to the end, this makes it very difficult to stop half way through and run off to a different server in the network to do some processing.

I don't see why not. With PHP you can, for example, make a call to a web service and read the results. You can run some process and read the output of that process.

shortcorner

dzy wrote: »

Sorry for the late reply. I just took a look at your websites. In both cases, the functionality all seems to be there, but I think the layout is letting you down a little.

Perhaps the sites would be better served with a simpler, cleaner layout. I'd try to keep the page width smaller than 760px to avoid horizontal scrolling and the navigation menu more standard (eg. the downloads section on the Flynn Concrete site).

I'm bad with layout myself. But normally in a web development company you have a web designer take care of how the pages look and you can concentrate on the functionality.

What you are trying to prove with your portfolio is that you can create functional websites. Employers will be more concerned with this. So try to keep just a simple, clean layout.

Sorry for my delay, Thanks for the comments dzy

Hobbes

dzy wrote: »

Why does the fact that it is interpreted mean that it does not support a distributed architecture?

Depends on how it is interpreted I guess. For example jsp is slow running the first time but once compiled doesn't need to run again unless the code is updated. Does PHP work that way? If it had to compile each time then the more people hitting the server would be an issue.

I don't see why not. With PHP you can, for example, make a call to a web service

AFAIR PHP can consume and create web services.

IRLConor

Hobbes wrote: »

Does PHP work that way? If it had to compile each time then the more people hitting the server would be an issue.

Your bog standard PHP install doesn't cache the compiled versions of the scripts. There are both free, open source and proprietary, commercial opcode caches available if you need the speed boost.

PHP's compiler is pretty fast though, many sites don't bother with an opcode cache.

Draupnir

As a .NET developer working in a permanent contract for a company who build large scale enterprise web applications, I can honestly say that the main factor backing up our choice of language (c#) and the .NET framework is support, documentation and consistency.

Do to the open source nature of PHP and the great many 3rd party apps available for it, a professional company trying to support their own software could very quickly become dependant on 3rd party amatuer providers or worst case scenario, have no professional support/documentation on open source software.

With the .NET environment we safe development time in the short term and hours of heartache when troubleshooting issues in the long term.

Cantab.

Draupnir wrote: »

With the .NET environment we safe development time in the short term and hours of heartache when troubleshooting issues in the long term.

FUD

Ginger

Its like vi vs emacs, red vs blue, munster vs leinster, windows vs everyone else, apples vs oranges, me vs the doughnut and mods vs boardsies ad infinitum

Draupnir

Cantab. wrote: »

FUD

That is a very well constructed argument, but doesnt address the point that using technologies that are unsupported or badly documented can only add points of failure to enterprise software?

Do you disagree with that?

sobriquet

Draupnir wrote: »

using technologies that are unsupported or badly documented can only add points of failure to enterprise software

Yes, you're right, but how is this related to PHP specifically? I've never used it, no opinion either way, but I do know it's one of the most popular web programming languages going, in use by high profile sites (Yahoo, Facebook) and supported by at least one commercial operation (Zend).

You're claiming it's unsupported and badly/'unprofessionally' documented (due, apparently to it's open source nature), you back it up. Otherwise, FUD.

Oh, and because it appears to matter, I, too, am a permanently-contracted developer using C#/SQL Server all the live long day. Ain't life grand.

(Oh, ginger: Emacs.)

Ginger

He he.. i just use VS2008!

Only kiddin.. whats emacs?

Draupnir

sobriquet wrote: »

Yes, you're right, but how is this related to PHP specifically? I've never used it, no opinion either way, but I do know it's one of the most popular web programming languages going, in use by high profile sites (Yahoo, Facebook) and supported by at least one commercial operation (Zend).

You're claiming it's unsupported and badly/'unprofessionally' documented (due, apparently to it's open source nature), you back it up. Otherwise, FUD.

Oh, and because it appears to matter, I, too, am a permanently-contracted developer using C#/SQL Server all the live long day. Ain't life grand.

(Oh, ginger: Emacs.)

I agree that it is very popular among hobbyist and amateurs and some very high profile sites use it, but in my experience medium sized business avoid it simply because of its open source nature and the lack of a common environment from design to development to deployment.

The advantage for the MS .NET approach is the confidence provided by being able to rely on support and cooperation between each branch of a project and the fact that knowledge of any aspect of the project makes it easy to pick up and use other ones.

For me, more open source solutions such as PHP, Ruby etc. do not provide the same assurances or confidences in reliability or speed of development.

machalla

Ginger wrote: »

Only kiddin.. whats emacs?

Best explanation of the editor wars I've seen
http://xkcd.com/378/

IRLConor

Draupnir wrote: »

The advantage for the MS .NET approach is the confidence provided by being able to rely on support and cooperation between each branch of a project and the fact that knowledge of any aspect of the project makes it easy to pick up and use other ones.

For me, more open source solutions such as PHP, Ruby etc. do not provide the same assurances or confidences in reliability or speed of development.

That has everything to do with the development practices and nothing to do with the language/platform.

Yes, there are plenty of cowboy PHP operations out there and it will always be popular with the lower end of the scale due to its cheapness but that doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with the technology.

There are plenty of things wrong with PHP, but its "enterprise-ness" is not one of them. That's a myth propagated by J2EE and .NET zealots from everything I've seen. I've never seriously played with .NET stuff before, but given the choice between developing J2EE stuff and PHP in my experience the PHP way has been the least painful for me as a developer.

(vim all the way! )

sobriquet

Draupnir wrote: »

I agree that it is very popular among hobbyist and amateurs and some very high profile sites use it, but in my experience medium sized business avoid it simply because of its open source nature and the lack of a common environment from design to development to deployment.

This frankly sounds like you're trolling. A language doesn't get to be one of the most popular in its' domain by being adopted only by amateurs and hobbyists on one end and high-end businesses on the other.

You've still not backed up your assertion. I don't care what your preference is, but given that this forum is frequented by students and neophytes I take issue with you saying that the development tools and methodologies that you happen to have settled on amount to the one true way to be a real programmer.

Draupnir

sobriquet wrote: »

This frankly sounds like you're trolling. A language doesn't get to be one of the most popular in its' domain by being adopted only by amateurs and hobbyists on one end and high-end businesses on the other.

You've still not backed up your assertion. I don't care what your preference is, but given that this forum is frequented by students and neophytes I take issue with you saying that the development tools and methodologies that you happen to have settled on amount to the one true way to be a real programmer.

You are totally misinterpreting what I am saying and I am not trolling at all. My opinion is that from design to development to deployment, Microsoft solutions via the .NET framework provides the most complete, well supported and well documented solution for enterprise applications.

As such, it makes it easier for younger developers starting out to get to grips with the programming side of things without the baggage of setup/maintenance issues. Are you trying to tell me you dont agree that a .NET web app is easier for an average developer to set up on a Windows Server 2003 box under IIS than it is to get a LAMP server up and running?

Granted, most reasonably professional companies should not leave the entire thing up to the dev guys, but the fact is that an average .NET developer is more equipped to do server setup or maintenance as well as site deployment and maintenance than I believe an average PHP developer is.

The root of my argument may lie in the fact that the vast majority of people are far more comfortable using a Windows OS than another one, but that just adds to the point I am making.

I am not trying to argue my own preference because my own preference is not for any one language but rather for the global application of standard patterns and metrics across all languages, this is something I work on daily and actively promote in my own job. I may well be a permanently contracted C# developer right now but my personal ambition is certainly not tied to that language.

You talk about the one true way to be a "real programmer", there is a very simple answer to how to be a "real programmer" and that in my belief, is that a "real programmer" can apply their skills and practices in problem solving, reasoning and software design to any language with very little upskilling time.

sobriquet

You said that PHP is avoided by businesses, due to being dependent on amateurs, and it being unprofessionally documented or supported. When I challenged that you should back this up, you didn't.

Draupnir wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me you dont agree that a .NET web app is easier for an average developer to set up on a Windows Server 2003 box under IIS than it is to get a LAMP server up and running?

I don't know; I've never tried to do either. Have you done both? If you have and you're experience is that this one is distinctly preferable to the other, then say that. It's entirely different to writing off without qualification a language that as far as I can see is very popular and widely deployed as only being for amateurs.

Draupnir wrote: »

my own preference is not for any one language... my personal ambition is certainly not tied to that language.

a "real programmer" can apply their skills and practices in problem solving, reasoning and software design to any language with very little upskilling time.

I agree (except about upskilling time, that's fungible), and thus this the product of a sane and reasonable mind.

Draupnir

I didnt say PHP was avoided by business because it is dependant on amateurs because that is not the case, I said I have experienced it is avoided by medium sized businesses because of a lack of support or documentation and the obvious pitfalls from that.

Every developer I know is an amateur who gets paid to do something they like anyway.

Also, I am not trying to dissuade or insult the PHP programming language, I have created a number of apps with it (not commercially) and believe it has its benefits when compared with classic ASP but I dont see any benefits or pros that it has to offer over .NET development, bar maybe cost, which is not something that influences my choice of platform.

Draupnir

sobriquet wrote: »

I don't know; I've never tried to do either. Have you done both? If you have and you're experience is that this one is distinctly preferable to the other, then say that.

To come back to this, yes I have done both and while neither is the most fun I have ever had with my clothes on, the .NET version of events is most often a lot less of a pain in the ass.

IRLConor

Draupnir wrote: »

it is avoided by medium sized businesses because of a lack of support or documentation and the obvious pitfalls from that.

Lack of documentation? Which PHP were you looking at?

I'd take www.php.net over the quagmire that is MSDN every day of the week!