Settle an argument....

Flipper

Ok, I have two friends who met through me. They don't know each other that well. Back this time last year, Player A loaned Player B (on my word) what was described as €20,000 - which at the time, came to a Pokerstars transfer of $25,870. A month or two later, Player B met Player live and gave him €10,000 in cash.

Now, to the present. Player A has moved away and no longer meets Player B live. Player B now wants to pay back Player A using Pokerstars transfer by paying him half of the $25,870 ($12,935) but player A isn't accepting this as $12,935 is no longer half of €20,000. With current exchange rates, it works out to $29,230; or $14,615 left to be paid.

how much should player B be made pay?

smurph

Flipper wrote: »

Ok, I have two friends who met through me. They don't know each other that well. Back this time last year, Player A loaned Player B (on my word) what was described as €20,000 - which at the time, came to a Pokerstars transfer of $25,870. A month or two later, Player B met Player live and gave him €10,000 in cash.

Now, to the present. Player A has moved away and no longer meets Player B live. Player B now wants to pay back Player A using Pokerstars transfer by paying him half of the $25,870 ($12,935) but player A isn't accepting this as $12,935 is no longer half of €20,000. With current exchange rates, it works out to $29,230; or $14,615 left to be paid.

how much should player B be made pay?

and this is poker related how????? oh year transfer through pokerstars?

Flipper

smurph wrote: »

and this is poker related how????? oh year transfer through pokerstars?

very topical actually I think with the poor $ at the moment. Plus, they're both poker players

Taxipete29

If €20,000 was the amount intended to be borrowed and Pokerstars was only just a means of transfer and the money was withdrawn to € then €20,000 is what should be paid back, but if the money was borrowed for on online bankroll then I think the $ amount borrowed is what you would pay back as that is the actual amount you borrowed.

CaptainNemo

Seems simple enough. He was loaned $25,870 on pokerstars. He paid back €10,000. The remainder in $ is what's owed. The only € exchange rate that needs to be taken into account is that in force at the time the €10,000 was paid back. The current exchange rate is irrelevant since the original loan was in $ and not €.

kebabfest

If the loan was described as €20,000 and the other guy already paid half of this €20,000 which was accepted without fuzz or complaint about dollar rates then the rest of the debt is €10,000.
If there is quibbling about poker stars rates then it should be done like normal people via a bank transfer or cheque.
There is only 3 things in life people fall out over in Ireland
Love , Land and Money !

bops

1) don't loan degerate gamblers money
2) yerman owes €10k - (he borrowed €20k, paid back €10k...it doesn't matter if the loan was in dollars, it still was = €20k at the time) tell him to stop being a pr1ck and pay up properly
3)don't ever get involved in these messes "on my word" - imo YOU are responsible here...

Gillybean72

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Seems simple enough. He was loaned $25,870 on pokerstars. He paid back €10,000. The remainder in $ is what's owed. The only € exchange rate that needs to be taken into account is that in force at the time the €10,000 was paid back. The current exchange rate is irrelevant since the original loan was in $ and not €.

.

Ollieboy

I would expect and be upset if I didnt get the full value back. I would rather if he just did a bank transfer for €10k and make it easy and fair on everyone. He shouldn't be trying to profit on a loan.

As for loans to other players, never do them.

nice1franko

assumption: b asked for, and was given, a loan of €20k and not the arbitrary $25,870.

player b owes player a €10k and a very large tin of roses (for helping him out and for the approx 5% interest a would have got for the money had he left it in a savings account).

jbravado

Ollieboy wrote: »

. He shouldn't be trying to profit on a loan.
.

What a ridiculous jerk.

BigDragon

bops wrote: »

1) don't loan degerate gamblers money
2) yerman owes €10k - (he borrowed €20k, paid back €10k...it doesn't matter if the loan was in dollars, it still was = €20k at the time) tell him to stop being a pr1ck and pay up properly
3)don't ever get involved in these messes "on my word" - imo YOU are responsible here...

I agree with Devore. €10k is owed. We don't live in the US of Assholes. Pay up in €. Pokerstars transfers are for convenience not a currency exchange broker.

BigDragon

jbravado wrote: »

What a ridiculous jerk.

Who...the lender or borrower?

jbravado

The dude whos trying to stump on paying the correct pretzel monies.

BigDragon

jbravado wrote: »

The dude whos trying to stump on paying the correct pretzel monies.

Agreed.

Gus Ivey

im paying the equivalent to 10grand Euro.

If he doesnt like it im gonna wait til the exchange rate changes to suit me so i only end up paying about eur9,000

WH BONNEY

Not sure if if I saw this in Sklanskys book but I remember seeing it somewhere

20 - 10 = 10

Mellor

10k euro. I can't see any other ammount being used.
What ever this comes to on the day of paying should be used. In what ever currency is used.

careca

WH BONNEY wrote: »

Not sure if if I saw this in Sklanskys book but I remember seeing it somewhere

20 - 10 = 10

A genuine LOL.

OilBeefHooked2

10k euro no bout adoubt it.

Btw I find it interesting that not one of the 6 people that voted for the lesser amount have ventured an explanation as to why.
A lender nor a borrower be.

Ollieboy

yeh, can I borrow money from the people who vote for the lower amount please.

Ste05

Agreed, I can't see why someone would pay less (or certainly accept less) then €10k.

If the F/X rate went the other way, would they have offered to pay the extra or take it off the top so the figure came to €10k? Or would he go out of his way to meet him again and pay him €10k in cash??

How would they value up the €10k previously paid, would they work that out at the current F/X rate to get to €20k or at the rate it was worth at the time when it was paid, or borrowed?? (i.e. how much the €10k he previously paid was worth in $ if he thinks the loan was made in $). The fact that he paid back €10k previously tells me he knew and accepted that the loan was in EURO and not Dollars. It seems like an angle shot to me.

Flipper

Ste05 wrote: »

If the F/X rate went the other way, would they have offered to pay the extra or take it off the top so the figure came to €10k? Or would he go out of his way to meet him again and pay him €10k in cash??

This is what I said. I must say that I am surprised that this isn't closer to 50/50 though...

connie147

It should really be pretty simple. He borrowed €20k, he paid back half of it (€10,000)so he now owes €10k. So now he checks the exchange rate and repays it in the amount of $'s it takes.Well, it seems simple to me

Connie

nicnicnic

I think he should give the €10,000 in cash if not then the larger amount in $, but TBH I don't think people should be borrowing or lending €20,000 in personal transactions.

Icarus152

I like to ask myself

"What would Judge Judy do?"

CaptainNemo

Seems there's some ambiguity as to whether he borrowed €20,000 or $25,870. I can understand why they're arguing about it, since that little fact (which they probably weren't very clear about at the time) makes a huge difference. That's why I didn't vote for either amount. The problem as stated is missing information. Both can be accused of trying to profit from the currency fluctuations depending on which point of view you take.

Lesson: always get anything significant like this in writing.

I'm pretty sure that the legal situation would be that he was loaned dollars. The verbal agreement of being loaned a Euro amount would be worth far less in court than the concrete fact of a transaction in $$. I am not a lawyer but the rest of my family is and some of it rubs off.

Most people seem to be trying to take a "moral" stance, i.e. what the "right" thing to do is here, which doesn't make any sense to me since both people in the deal are trying to make the maximum for themselves. If I was Solomon I would rule that the borrower pay back the mean of the two figures suggested, and admonish both to be more careful when making arrangements like this in the future.

Icarus152

They made the loan on "your word".

Sounds like you have some liability here Flipper.....

Very unwise.

Moro Man

Ask Corkie123 Flipper.:D:D:D

I hope this isn't some cynical ploy on your behalf for someone to come along and give NeTeller a plug.

Flipper

No, I don't have any fiscal interest in this

Conbro

If this guy had any sense of decency he'd repay the 10k in euros and throw your friend a monkey for obliging him.

Zab

€10,000 now (current exchange rate) and it doesn't seem at all close on the information given in the OP.

semibluff

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Most people seem to be trying to take a "moral" stance, i.e. what the "right" thing to do is here, which doesn't make any sense to me since both people in the deal are trying to make the maximum for themselves. If I was Solomon I would rule that the borrower pay back the mean of the two figures suggested, and admonish both to be more careful when making arrangements like this in the future.

he's merely tryin to get his money back- 20k he loaned, never mind a charge he could have and should have set in place for loaning such a large amount. Foolish entering into this IMO, and the fact that the person receiving the loan didnt bother his arse paying it back, and he's laziness in doing so he got lucky with the Exchange rates - this should not be rewarded.

Also the loan was given on your recommendation, and so id be very annoyed at the person who got the loan, you did him the favour and at the end of the day its your image being destroyed too.

Nothing surprises me anymore about some poker players, but the full euro amount should be repaid as i can only imagine that the loan asked for was 20k, and not 25,643 or whatever the dollare equiv

but all that said, anyone got a lend of a nifty???;):p

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Macspower

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Poker players are such upstanding and honorable citizens huh.

owes 10k euro nohing else acceptable...

Just reminded me isn't mick the lip in the money lately?

still dodging me a year later

pppspecial

i cant believe that a poker player who borrowed 20k is trying to cheat the other guy out off a few quid, he got a loan ffs. he asked for 20k got what he was looking for. paid back 10k acknowledging the transaction was in euro. therefore the remainder should also be paid back in euro. 10k euro and nothing else. now you use pokerstars for a money transfer for ease off payment. now sending back 12k odd $$ only equates to 9kish euro therefore he would simply be stinging this rather nice chap who has done a favour out off the goodness off his heart. imo this other guy should be taken down an alley way and left there with no less than a few bumps and bruises for even trying to pull a stunt like this.

Glowingmind

Macspower wrote: »

owes 10k euro nohing else acceptable...

Just reminded me isn't mick the lip in the money lately?

still dodging me a year later

Care to elaborate?

RoundTower

he should pay back €10k. And if he is insisting on paying it back online in $ when that wasn't the original plan, he should pay it back at the $ sell rate, not the midmarket rate which is what it looks like you have used. More like $14,800 depending on your bank.

ocallagh

He owes €10k, no two ways about it.

When he accepted $ as payment, he was exposed to any currency fluctuations, not the original lender.

If the dollar had strengthened so that $1 = €1, do you think he would have offered to pay back €12,935 instead of €10k?

taliban

was the borrower nick leeson

ArmaniJeanss

Flipper wrote: »

Ok, I have two friends who met through me. They don't know each other that well. Back this time last year, Player A loaned Player B (on my word) what was described as €20,000 - which at the time, came to a Pokerstars transfer of $25,870. A month or two later, Player B met Player live and gave him €10,000 in cash.

Now, to the present. Player A has moved away and no longer meets Player B live. Player B now wants to pay back Player A using Pokerstars transfer by paying him half of the $25,870 ($12,935) but player A isn't accepting this as $12,935 is no longer half of €20,000. With current exchange rates, it works out to $29,230; or $14,615 left to be paid.

how much should player B be made pay?

Player A seems to do very well out of this. If he had this money online on Stars as part of his bankroll , then $12935 would have depreciated over the last year due to €/$ fluctuations. Instead by virtue of lending it to someone else he has avoided this depreciation, 'lucked out' you could call it.

I think he should meet PlayerB three-quarter way and accept a transfer of around $14K, and heartily thank PlayerA for saving him from the full affects of the dollar plunge over the last year.

(The above only applies if $25K+ is the sort of money PlayerA keeps in his account on Stars. If he transferred it there specifically for this loan, then the full €14,615 should be paid).

JudgeAJ.

Zab

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Player A seems to do very well out of this. If he had this money online on Stars as part of his bankroll , then $12935 would have depreciated over the last year due to €/$ fluctuations. Instead by virtue of lending it to someone else he has avoided this depreciation, 'lucked out' you could call it.

I think he should meet PlayerB three-quarter way and accept a transfer of around $14K, and heartily thank PlayerA for saving him from the full affects of the dollar plunge over the last year.

(The above only applies if $25K+ is the sort of money PlayerA keeps in his account on Stars. If he transferred it there specifically for this loan, then the full €14,615 should be paid).

JudgeAJ.

No way. There's nothing to say that Player A would have kept this money on stars or in USD. This applies even if he always keeps 500k in his PS account.

Irish_Nomad

CaptainNemo wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that the legal situation would be that he was loaned dollars. The verbal agreement of being loaned a Euro amount would be worth far less in court than the concrete fact of a transaction in $$. I am not a lawyer but the rest of my family is and some of it rubs off.

I think you're wrong here. Unless player B could show a reason why he wanted exactly $25,872 then a court is much more likely to decide that the loan was for €20,000 (a nice round number) and the other figure was merely the dollar equivalent at the time.

PS: I have lawyers in my family too

Flipper

Irish_Nomad wrote: »

I think you're wrong here. Unless player B could show a reason why he wanted exactly $25,872 then a court is much more likely to decide that the loan was for €20,000 (a nice round number) and the other figure was merely the dollar equivalent at the time.

PS: I have lawyers in my family too

ok, interesting. Would this be the same if Player A had rounded up first day to $26,000 (just out of convenience) and Player B was now trying to ship back $13,000?

luckylucky

I think the clincher for me is that the deal was for €20k, it's also quite clear that this was the figure in practice as the loan hd been done in dollars was it really likley to have been a figure like 25,870 Saying that since the transaction was done in dollars they should have changed the initital agreement and said the deal was for the dollar amount, but since they didn't do that the borrower should take the hit and pay up.

DeVore

BigDragon wrote: »

I agree with Devore. €10k is owed. We don't live in the US of Assholes. Pay up in €. Pokerstars transfers are for convenience not a currency exchange broker.

Did you just mistake BOPS for me?

DID YOU?


You wait Kingston! Don't show your face in Drogheda!!

DeV.

bops

you should be honoured!!

it's about time i changed my tagline anyways - i'm starting a mini-challange so i'll stick that in instead

Irish_Nomad

Flipper wrote: »

ok, interesting. Would this be the same if Player A had rounded up first day to $26,000 (just out of convenience) and Player B was now trying to ship back $13,000?

In my earlier post I just referred to the original loan amount and reckoned that was enough for a court to determine that the loan was denominated in euro. That isn't the only evidence however.

In your hypotethical situation where the loan is €20,000/$26,000 (and thus unclear) then they also have the information about the 1st repayment.

Repaying €10,000 would tend to support the case that the loan was in euro. The status of the loan is obvious : €20k borrowed, €10k repaid, €10k still owing. If the loan had been in dollars, then at the time the €10k is handed over, the parties would need to agree how much was still owing : $26k borrowed, €10k repaid, ??? still owing. In the absence of any such discussion then I think that a court would still determine the loan was denominated in euro.

semibluff

game set match nomad

BigDragon

DeVore wrote: »

Did you just mistake BOPS for me?

DID YOU?


You wait Kingston! Don't show your face in Drogheda!!

DeV.

See Bops sig Murphy.....jesus man you can't read. :rolleyes:;)

The fecker just changed it.....it read ''DeVore: I agree with Bops''

casey212

Why did he give him the money in the first place, you are only asking for trouble. At the end of the day its dog eat dog out there.