Aftermarket ABS

Alkers

Nearly hit a fox coming home from work last night, he darted from a bush onto the road and I jammed on, wheels locked up instantly and I was kinda scared by how little the car slowed down. Luckily the noise of the skid caused the fox to quickly turn around.
Anyway, car is an 03 fiesta, drum brakes. Is this even possible? Cost effective?
Any experience?
Thanks

x in the city

nada

far better off flogging it and buying something else.......

personally I would never buy a car without abs.

S.I.R

nah , not really worth it... disc brakes are more affordable... 100's of places sellimg them or just buy em from england :rolleyes:

Esel

Google cadence braking. It gives the same effect as ABS, though not as efficient obviously. Great for staying in control on wet roads during severe braking though.

You braked instinctively, fair enough. You over-reacted though. When the wheels lock up, your brakes are not as effective, and you risk losing control. You should consider practising emergency stops (on a clear, dry road naturally!).

Also, braking in this manner for a fox (or dog, or cat) is wrong. Better that the animal is killed than you put yourself or other road users or pedestrians at risk. What if there had been another vehicle behind you for instance. You should consider your options - steering round the obstacle for one. If you jam on, you are then committed.

I know I am off-topic from your question re aftermarket fitting of ABS (not on AFAIK - too much involved), but I think you are a 'new driver', so hope you take my suggestions in the spirit in which they are intended.

[edit] Drum brakes at the rear, btw. Discs front.

Spit62500

You didn't mention road conditions but it would be worth checking your tyre tread depth to ensure that its well above the legal minimum. Effective braking also requires that your shock absorbers are in good condition and that your brakes are well maintained (are the rear drums doing their fair share of work?) Might be worth checking the car out before doing too much else. Your wheels will lock up more easily under heavy braking if the items above need attention.

JHMEG

esel wrote: »

When the wheels lock up, your brakes are not as effective

Your steering is not as effective. But your braking doesn't get any better than when the wheels are locked up as there is max friction between tyre and road.

Nothing will stop you in a shorter distance than a good ole lock-up, it's a pity steering doesn't work during it.

OP, if you want to be able to steer under heavy breaking better off getting a car with ABS. If you want to decrease your stopping distance tho you need wider/better tyres.

ABS could be transplanted from a Fiesta that has it, but it's a huge amount of work. No such thing as aftermarket.

kluivert

All cars had to have ABS fitted as standard since 1999 I think so the Fiesta shoudl have it already. It might not be working. Better to check that out first.

bazz26

kluivert wrote: »

All cars had to have ABS fitted as standard since 1999 I think so the Fiesta shoudl have it already. It might not be working. Better to check that out first.

Actually ABS was made manditory on new cars sold in the EU from 2004.

Anan1

JHMEG wrote: »

But your braking doesn't get any better than when the wheels are locked up as there is max friction between tyre and road.

This is not strictly true, friction is slightly greater just before the tyre loses grip. That said, on most surfaces there's not a lot in it - as you say, being able to steer is the big plus with ABS.

Henry Ford III

Fiesta has front discs. Always did.

ABS cannot be retro fitted economically.

maidhc

kluivert wrote: »

All cars had to have ABS fitted as standard since 1999 I think so the Fiesta shoudl have it already. It might not be working. Better to check that out first.

Nope my 2003 Focus Zetec doesn't have it either. Which is odd considering the base Golf had it in 98 IIRC. Was only fitted as standard in anything below a Focus Ghia from late 03!

roughan

S.I.R wrote: »

nah , not really worth it... disc brakes are more affordable... 100's of places sellimg them or just buy em from england :rolleyes:

All Cars since the 60s have Disc Brakes
the might have Drums on the back
but as 70% of ur braking is done by the Front it doesnt really matter

kluivert

My 1999 Astra has ABS. I twould be one of things I would look for when buying a car alright.

Saved my ass a few times, likewise with bloody small animals running out of the hedges.

Near sure I ran over a frog the other evening as well. I felt really bad about it for some reason.

Spit62500

roughan wrote: »

All Cars since the 60s have Disc Brakes
the might have Drums on the back
but as 70% of ur braking is done by the Front it doesnt really matter

You never came across a 1977 VW Beetle 1200 or a 1980 Mini so... Both have drums all round.

The majority of braking may be done by the front but its vital that braking force between front and rear of the vehicle is balanced. If rear braking efficiency is compromised then the fronts will lock more easily as the driver applies more braking pressure.

E92

maidhc wrote: »

Nope my 2003 Focus Zetec doesn't have it either. Which is odd considering the base Golf had it in 98 IIRC. Was only fitted as standard in anything below a Focus Ghia from late 03!

The Ghia model had it from 99 if I'm not mistaken(and a great car it is too), or was it 01 when Ford made the Ghia badge worthy of it's name in the Focus and fitted equipment(i.e. aircon, alloys etc) as standard?

Ford were always very late to the party on safety equipment(Ghias and high spec models excluded), which is so odd since they were the first to fit the drivers airbag as standard on a mass market relatively affordable car an incredible 15 years ago in the Mondeo:eek:.

JHMEG

Anan1 wrote: »

This is not strictly true, friction is slightly greater just before the tyre loses grip.

Actually in the wet it can be hugely higher before grip is lost, but 99.9% of drivers won't be able to maintain that point just before grip is lost, especially in an emergency.

But anyway, the point I was really making is that ABS improves steering, not stopping distance.

crosstownk

roughan wrote: »

All Cars since the 60s have Disc Brakes
the might have Drums on the back
but as 70% of ur braking is done by the Front it doesnt really matter

The initial batch of MkI VW Golfs (1974/75/76) had drum brakes on the front.

OP - As others have already stated, forget about it. The cost of retro fitting ABS would easily upgrade you to a model that has it fitted as standard.

Spit62500

E92 wrote: »

Ford were always very late to the party on safety equipment(Ghias and high spec models excluded), which is so odd since they were the first to fit the drivers airbag as standard on a mass market relatively affordable car an incredible 15 years ago in the Mondeo:eek:.

They were the first to have ABS as standard across a model range with the Mk 111 Granada.

Oilrig

Anyone remember the ABS fitted to some '80's Escort/Orions? pump driven by a belt from the driveshaft...:eek:

Seth Brundle

esel wrote: »

Also, braking in this manner for a fox (or dog, or cat) is wrong. Better that the animal is killed than you put yourself or other road users or pedestrians at risk.

True but it can be messy!



Not for the squeamish & possibly NSFW!

http://img484.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deer2va7.png
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http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deer3qy2.png
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BostonB

I always felt I stop quicker without ABS. ABS feels like its preventing you from applying the brakes fully. Which it is of course.

Instead of buying ABS or a car just with ABS. Consider buying a car with better brakes. Sports cars generally have better brakes than standard cars.

Anan1

BostonB wrote: »

Sports cars generally have better brakes than standard cars.

Better in the sense that they can better withstand repeated heavy braking. If the brakes are strong enough to lock up the wheels then no further advantage would be conferred by stronger brakes. Better tyres might be an idea, though.

BostonB

Would they not lock up the wheels faster though? I take your point though bigger is mainly about heat.

I suppose what i should have said is that sports cars can generally stop quicker than a non sports car.

Alkers

Jeez this has gone OT. For those suggesting investing in better brakes then that's completely off the ball, surely that would result in the wheels locking even faster and would have a negative result on the overall stopping distance. Some people really ought to read the thread before jumping on the bandwagon...
Cadence breaking sounds like the works but it would surely also be uneconomical bearing the mind the amount of training it would take for it to become your natural reaction.
Road conditions were wet but not raining.
Selling the car for a better model is not an option as the car isn't mine and is exceptionally low millage.
Car and tyres are in good condition so no faults there.
A lot of people are jumping out making it out as if I have done something wrong here, all I've done is witnessed the maximum breaking force under pressure with me as a driver and questioned how I can improve on it. I think a lot of people ought to lighten up and offer advice rather than criticism. AS I've said before conditions were wet and the fox jumped out of a hedgerow so I couldn't have seen him earlier.
Thanks for the imput, it seems that aftermarket ABS isn't a possibility and I won't go looking down that road.
Thanks for those that posted constructively.

BostonB

..and fitting ABS isn't off the ball?

Fitting bigger brakes is often done as is bigger wheels and better tyres.

Changing cars to get one that brakes better doesn't seem OT to me at all.

Alkers

So it's possible to fit aftermarket ABS?
IMHO fitting bigger brakes would have been of no improvement as the wheels would have locked up even quicker (with me at the wheel) than they did in the above example...
As I've said changing cars is OT as it's not my car to change, I'm only a named driver.

Esel

OP, learn and practice cadence braking. It's easy. And don't brake hard for small furry animals - at least not on wet roads.

In the incident you described with the fox, you lost control of your vehicle. Address this issue rather than carp about people going OT (which I didn't notice btw - most threads here digress somewhat).

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For large animals (cows, horses, deer), police drivers are taught a counter-intuitive technique which could well save their life, as well as the life of any passengers.

Basically, you have braked hard but know you are going to hit the animal. What you do is stop braking and floor the throttle! This raises the front of the car substantially. You still hit the animal, but instead of it mounting the bonnet and entering the vehicle and probably killing or seriously injuring you, it is ploughed out of the way instead. You may well be injured, but hopefully not dead.

Alkers

esel wrote: »

OP, learn and practice cadence braking. It's easy. And don't brake hard for small furry animals - at least not on wet roads.

In the incident you described with the fox, you lost control of your vehicle. Address this issue rather than carp about people going OT (which I didn't notice btw - most threads here digress somewhat).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

For large animals (cows, horses, deer), police drivers are taught a counter-intuitive technique which could well save their life, as well as the life of any passengers.

Basically, you have braked hard but know you are going to hit the animal. What you do is stop braking and floor the throttle! This raises the front of the car substantially. You still hit the animal, but instead of it mounting the bonnet and entering the vehicle and probably killing or seriously injuring you, it is ploughed out of the way instead. You may well be injured, but hopefully not dead.

This is all well and good and I appreciate your input (in this and other threads) esel, but I wasn't looking for criticism (constructive as it may be) on my driving, I was asking about the ABS.
I don't see your above technique working at all when (as I was) in fifth gear (in a 1.2L car), where accelerating as hard as possible wouldn't raise the front of the car at all. It's also extremely hard to learn to the extent where it becomes a natural reflex, especially where to consider the time where you evaluate the life of a child over that of a dog etc in the split seconds it takes you to make an emergency breaking manouvre.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

Simona1986 wrote: »

consider the time where you evaluate the life of a child over that of a dog etc in the split seconds it takes you to make an emergency breaking manouvre.

Nothing to evaluate there, dog get it every time, as unfortunate as that may be.
You started this thread obviouslly interested in finding out if a method of stopping the car more safley was worth investing in. It's not worth it to get ABS fitted to a car aftermarket, extravagently expensive.

However someone has pointed out a safer way to apply the breaks, which is worth doing. I have used it before myself, I was in a Opel Corsa (instructors car) and locked up the breaks, I had the breaks released and re-applied before the instructor could react to the inciednt, and that was the one and only time I have ever used that breaking technique. it works and it is easy to do, you just have to remember to do it when the wheels lock up, which basically means concentrating, which you should be doing anyway.

OP I am not having a dig at you, just posting my experince, take from it what you will.

BostonB

Simona1986 wrote: »

....I jammed on, wheels locked up instantly and I was kinda scared by how little the car slowed down. ...

Go slower?

ednwireland

had the car serviced recently ? brakes checked ? are your pads worn ? have you got decent tyres i put some cheap tyres on my car and then changed to semperit comfort life and it changed the cars braking completely (the old ones were about 4mm)

Anan1

BostonB wrote: »

Would they not lock up the wheels faster though? I take your point though bigger is mainly about heat.

I think any modern car should be able to lock up the wheels pretty much instantly (without ABS) - assuming the brakes to be in good condition.

BostonB wrote: »

I suppose what i should have said is that sports cars can generally stop quicker than a non sports car.

I'd say that's more down to tyres/weight/suspension. I think the bigger brakes are to withstand repeated hard applications, ie track driving.

That said, if the OP lives in very hilly terrain then you may well have a point.

Henry Ford III

This thread has descended into a farce.

1/. The brakes on almost all cars are sufficently powerful to stop them quickly.

2/. ABS can be retrofitted, but it's prohibitively expense to do so.

3/. Cadence braking is beyond the ability of most motorists, particularly in an emergency.

mickdw

Oilrig wrote: »

Anyone remember the ABS fitted to some '80's Escort/Orions? pump driven by a belt from the driveshaft...:eek:

I remember mike murphy giving away orions each sunday night on a quiz show and the promo clip showed the car driving around a tractor that came out in front of it and praised the abs on the car. Was only about 5 at the time myself.

ianobrien

If you want ABS, the whole braking system has to be changed. The only things that you could use from the old system are the front discs and the pedal. Everything else would have to be changed, along with brake pipes made up, possible ECU changes, ABS Controller fitted and a million other things.

Basically, forget it or change the car. Oh, and how would the insurance react to a change in the braking system of the car?

To improve the braking in your own car, check tyre pressures, check that shocks are in perfect working order and learn to brake. Find a quiet, private road and practice your stopping technique. Don't just stamp on the pedal, brake hard and if the wheels lock, take your foot off the pedal A SMALL BIT! After a while, you'll be used to it and it'll come naturally. If you are practising, leave your brakes cool down between runs. After a while, you'll be amazed at the difference in stopping distance.

You can't steer when the front wheels are locked, no matter what anybody says! Steering used rolling resistance of the tyres and road. If you lock the wheels, they are not rotating, and thus no steering

It's a weird feeling taking your foot off the brake pedal when the wheels are locked, but it saved me one day. I encountered an oil spill approaching a bend and I braked. The wheels locked and I couldn't steer. The car also stalled as the front wheels were locked and I couldn't get to the clutch pedal in time. I took my foot off the brake, restarted the engine, used engine braking and steered around the corner. By the time I stopped and ran back to the bend, another car had gone off because he kept his foot on the brake pedal!

By the way, you don't need bigger brakes, as bigger brakes only dissipate more heat. Brakes work by converting kinetic energy into heat. Bigger brakes mean more area for the heat to be dissipated into the atmosphere. When you "lock a wheel", you are no longer converting kinetic energy into heat with the brakes. The stopping is coming from the friction between the stationary (ie not rotating) tyre and the road. As you locked a wheel under braking, too much pressure was applied to the pedal and the result was no braking (you were stopping by tyre friction).

Bigger cars have bigger brakes in order to dissipate the heat. Heavier cars have more kinetic energy than lighter cars going at the same speed (basic physics). So, if you put bigger brakes on the Fiesta, the brakes will lock up much quicker and it'll be much harder to brake gently. You only put bigger brakes in if you are experiencing brake fade as a result of excessive heat buildup, not if you want to stop quicker.

The best and cheapest upgrade is to look at tyres, as they control the contact between the car and the road

peasant

The biggest and most important issue with braking properly is:

You hit what you look at !

Most people, when an emergency situation arises, slam on the brakes, cling on to the steering wheel and stare straight at the object they are trying to avoid ...and if they can't stop in time (with or without ABS) ...bang ...they hit that object.


ABS doesn't give you better braking, it gives you more maneuverability. But it is wasted on most people, as they just continue ploughing straight ahead, same as if their wheels were locked.

Esel

Simona1986 wrote: »

I don't see your above technique working at all when (as I was) in fifth gear (in a 1.2L car), where accelerating as hard as possible wouldn't raise the front of the car at all.

That technique (quoted below) was for large animals, not your fox! I even separated it from the other part of my post to indicate it was an aside.

That being said, your point about 5th gear acceleration not raising the front of the car is wrong. You brake hard - car dives; you release brake - car levels out; you accelerate - car dips at rear (and therefore lifts at front). I repeat - this is for an unavoidable impact with a large animal!

@Henry Ford III: Cadence braking is not hard to pick up or use. First time I used it was in an emergency stop, having read about it a few times previously. It worked.

@Peasant: Agree! Corollary is 'Look where you want to go'. Saved my ass a few times, especially on the motorbike!

esel wrote: »

For large animals (cows, horses, deer), police drivers are taught a counter-intuitive technique which could well save their life, as well as the life of any passengers.

Basically, you have braked hard but know you are going to hit the animal. What you do is stop braking and floor the throttle! This raises the front of the car substantially. You still hit the animal, but instead of it mounting the bonnet and entering the vehicle and probably killing or seriously injuring you, it is ploughed out of the way instead. You may well be injured, but hopefully not dead.

BostonB

esel wrote: »

...
That being said, your point about 5th gear acceleration not raising the front of the car is wrong. You brake hard - car dives; you release brake - car levels out; you accelerate - car dips at rear (and therefore lifts at front). I repeat - this is for an unavoidable impact with a large animal!...

I seriously doubt that it would make much different to a large animal.

Alkers

Lol I was getting at the face that putting the foot down in 5th gear after slamming on in the car 1.2L has little to no affect. Nevermind, thanks for the input, gonna just have to go practice someday in the wet I guess...

BostonB

Anan1 wrote: »

I think any modern car should be able to lock up the wheels pretty much instantly (without ABS) - assuming the brakes to be in good condition.

I'd say that's more down to tyres/weight/suspension. I think the bigger brakes are to withstand repeated hard applications, ie track driving.

That said, if the OP lives in very hilly terrain then you may well have a point.

All I know that in brake tests some cars stop much quicker than others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfA7r8gYhl0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZk2ZrKeLdE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=080tLgt4NN4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f79EesoDj3U
http://www.nrma.com.au/pub/nrma/motor/car-research/stop_distance.shtml

stratos

I have read this thread with interest. I agree with esel. I personaly don't like abs. my own cadence braking i feel is better. However it is better on some cars than others.

My own experience is that when I swerved to avoid a stopped car ( my own fault i admit ) I ended up in the hard shoulder, there was a lot of dust and debris and I felt the abs did a bad job.

But my main trouble is with the drive over the animal bit. you should never be following a car so closley that you will hit it if it stops. THATS IT. no argument.

For my own experience I caught some movement out of the ditch and a blur. I cadence braked, the car behind me ran into the back of me and pushed me foreward a bit. the child that had ran across the ditch cleaned the dirt of my bumper as I was pushed foreward a bit by the idiot behind me after I had stopped.

very scary.

This why I hate the you should never brake for wildlife and put other people at risk. you have a split second to decide is it a pheasant or a child. If everyone is driving with due care and attention it doesn't matter. stay back be vigilant.

Esel

BostonB wrote: »

I seriously doubt that it would make much different to a large animal.

True. The animal will still probably be dead. You and your passengers, however, won't.

BostonB

esel wrote: »

True. The animal will still probably be dead. You and your passengers, however, won't.

Good luck with that. :rolleyes:

Henry Ford III

Lots more rubbish posted here again.

Cadence braking, even properly performed by the worlds best drivers, cannot achieve the stopping distances that are available to the masses with ABS systems, in normal road conditions.

Keener drivers prefer not to have some electronic aids such as ABS and ESP. They prefer to "feel" what's going on under the wheels without interference from big brother.

To achieve really good cadence braking performance requires a lot of skill, ultra quick reactions, and a well set up car. Anyone can hit the brakes and release them again. Can you do it 5 times a second or more, in an emergency though?

ianobrien

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Lots more rubbish posted here again.

Cadence braking, even properly performed by the worlds best drivers, cannot achieve the stopping distances that are available to the masses with ABS systems, in normal road conditions.

That's well proven. The early ABS system could be outperformed by expert drivers in deep snow or deep gravel but not on normal roads, but now ABS beats the best in any conditions.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

To achieve really good cadence braking performance requires a lot of skill, ultra quick reactions, and a well set up car. Anyone can hit the brakes and release them again. Can you do it 5 times a second or more, in an emergency though?

5 times a second, not a hope! I usually can do it 2 to 3 times a second.

peasant

ianobrien wrote: »

That's well proven. The early ABS system could be outperformed by expert drivers in deep snow or deep gravel but not on normal roads, but now ABS beats the best in any conditions.

bah, humbug !

On loose, deep snow or gravel the only thing that will bring the car to a stop is locked wheels.

ABS will just keep you rolling pretty much until the car runs out of momentum.

ianobrien

peasant wrote: »

bah, humbug !

On loose, deep snow or gravel the only thing that will bring the car to a stop is locked wheels.

ABS will just keep you rolling pretty much until the car runs out of momentum.

How often do ordinary people, driving ordinary cars, doing ordinary things drive on deep gravel. The reason for stopping better on gravel is due to the gravel build-up in front of the wheels, and energy being dissipated in trying to move the pile of gravel.

Yes, I have driven at 90mph on gravel, and locked wheels will stop you, except you've got no steering! (although, 90mph in a standard micra down a forest track is fun! especially with the back bouncing around)

I'd rather to have ABS and steering than locked wheels on snow, because at least I could steer. On snow, engine braking would slow you as well.

peasant

I was just refuting your rather sweeping statment of "but now ABS beats the best in any conditions" ...because it doesn't

bushy...

peasant wrote: »

bah, humbug !

On loose, deep snow or gravel the only thing that will bring the car to a stop is locked wheels.

Just turn it off under those conditions ?

stratos

I will agree with the argument abs is better possibly, because my abs has only ever cut in seriously twice and I have to admit the pulsing of the peddle surprised me for a second and I may have backed off a bit.

However I think not all abs systems are equal.

I did find the problem with one car I had was the abs would just cut in a tiny bit too soon, and was too slow to recover from the pulses. Abs will always slow you quicker than just jamming on, however in my humble experience some work better than others.

WHITE_P

x in the city wrote: »

nada

far better off flogging it and buying something else.......

personally I would never buy a car without abs.

If you have to rely on ABS to avoid having an accident then your driving skills are questionable. Ever heard of pumping the brake pedal. with a bit of practice its almost as effective.