Logic Pro 8

trackmixstudio

Hi all,
I am new to the board, but have been an engineer for 15 years.
I am an Apple certified pro and will be an Apple certified trainer for logic 8 in February.
If anyone has any Logic (or general recording) questions or problems, post here and I should be able to help.
Michael

cornbb

Welcome to the forum.

First off, I've been toying around with Logic 8 at work and it seems like a fantastic product, kudos to Apple especially for improving the workflow, it seems to beat everything else hands down in that regard.

First question: have there been any significant improvements behind the scenes (i.e. to the audio engine) since Logic 7? I still seem to get annoying "engine overload" messages (forget what the exact wording is) when I'm running relatively few tracks/plugins. I'm using a well-specced Mac Pro. Any hints on optimising Logic, Core Audio and the machine in general?

trackmixstudio

Hi,
It is general consensus that the audio engine (summing) has been improved although there is no official word on this from apple.
Most common causes for overload messages are:

Core audio drivers for your interface. Check the manufacturers site for drivers.

Incompatible plugins. The mac pro is intel and requires UB versions of plugins.
Select preferences at top left of arrange window, then audio units manager and select reset and rescan to weed out any bad ones. This will be more of an issue if you upgraded from a PPC mac.

You may have the I/O buffer set too low in audio/prefs/devices/core audio.
128 is a very workable latency that most musicians (even singers) don't really notice.

For best performance you should have 4GB or more ram to (greatly) reduce the amount of virtual memory used (VM is when your hard disk is used instead of ram). Logic performs well with 3GB, leaving 1GB for system use.

trackmixstudio

Oh! another important one.
If you are using a firewire interface:
Go to system preferences (in the dock) - network.
Select firewire and then the minus (-) sign to remove it.
When firewire is here, in network, the OS constantly monitors the firewire port for a network which can cause problems

ICN

Hi Michael - Welcome Mate!!

cornbb - I've got Logic express 8 and a Mac Pro 2.66 with 4 gb of Ram.

I get that ****ing overload message sometimes too.. wth only about 3 VI's. No Audio.

You would think that the Mac Pro could / should absolutely blast everything out of the water, wouldn't you?

There is a new version available from the w/site - 8.0.1. I've downloaded it but am yet to install it.

studiorat

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Hi all,
I am new to the board, but have been an engineer for 15 years.
I am an Apple certified pro and will be an Apple certified trainer for logic 8 in February.
If anyone has any Logic (or general recording) questions or problems, post here and I should be able to help.
Michael

So what do you charge for training?

trackmixstudio

I am doing (at Apple's request) the certified trainer course in February. There are several venues interested in hosting the 3 day Apple certified pro course, but nothing is finalized as yet.
As soon as more information is available I will post here.
Michael

studiorat

Hi Michael,
Would be great if you could keep us posted. I could do with brushing up on my logic skills. I'm normally a P.tools kinda guy, have Logic 7 don't use it much though.

dav nagle

Just to say its great to have somebody like yourself willing to teach a logic noob like me.

<mod edit>

What hits have been recorded through logic 8?

PaulBrewer

Would that be an illegal copy you're offering there Dav.... or perhaps you hold the copyright?

cornbb

Dav - don't even think about using this forum to share copyrighted, ripped or cracked material, if thats what it is.

On topic - yes, its nice to have a Logic expert around. I attended a Logic 8 workshop hosted by an Apple certified instructor recently. Unfortunately it largely had the vibe of a marketing push (there was a large "look at all these great new features" vibe) but it was helpful nonetheless as the guy was well able to give straightforward answers to technical questions.

dav nagle

I am very insulted by the accusations you guys are throwing around. I ordered my copy of Logic 8 on Monday from the Apple Ireland web site .A 'noob' is someone who is new to something, just to inform you both.

Where you got your assumptions from I certainly do not know?? Considering I bought Waves Diamond on e bay for 2000 euro (including waves transfer fee) and spent 400 euro on BFD 2 I think it is very insulting for the two of you to consider that I am using illegal software or offering illegal software. I am receiving logic tomorow or friday and when I get my copy you can have my serial and check it with apple.

I was saying that it is GREAT to know someone on the forums who I can ask questions about Logic 8 I.E. 'Trackmixstudio' get it Cornbb?

I switched over to Mac to get legit about my recordings not to have this kind of crap written about me. Paul as one of your clients I expected a little more from you.

smog

fair play to ya Michael!

dav nagle

Look the bottom line is I have and had no intention of acting illegally on the site or elsewhere and I didn't realise a training video would be such dangerous territory.

dav nagle

Niall - Dahlia


Yes that is understood, I just felt that as a new comer to boards my reputation was going down hill quick . I have the height of respect for Paul and all concerned.

cornbb

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

I don't think anybody is accusing you of using a cracked version of Logic. I think they were talking about the part of your post that was removed, if I remember right you said something like "If anybody wants a copy" of a Logic training video.

^ Yes, what he said

dav nagle wrote: »

Look the bottom line is I have and had no intention of acting illegally on the site or elsewhere and I didn't realise a training video would be such dangerous territory.

I have no doubt you had the best of intentions, I was just reminding you that the sharing of such material is against forum rules. Don't worry, I'm sure your reputation won't suffer because of it.

dav nagle

To 'Paul' and the moderator 'Cornbb' ( I am SORRY).:(

---

Now getting back to logic 8. Can anyone tell me why it is said that Logic has better automation then lets say Pro tools? Can anyone tell me what Logics strong points are?

Thankyou

PaulBrewer

Hey Dav!

There are 2 cool lessons you got today for Free!!

1. Think before you Type.

2. Don't fly off the handle.

By the way, SSL might have something of interest to you at the Frankfurt Show in March .............. there again they might not, I couldn't possibly say!

Best of Luck on Boards and with your Logic, the more the merrier

dav nagle

I am stupid for taking you on, real sorry.. Next time I will think better and keep a calm head. I just exploded. SSL desk!! come on you brought him for pints after, didn't you???. You know the ska? Let us all in on it?

cornbb

dav nagle wrote: »

To 'Paul' and the moderator 'Cornbb' ( I am SORRY).:(

Don't mention it

Quick rules of thumb for boards.ie:
- No discussion of illegal things such as copyright material
- No personal abuse
- No commercial posting, spamming or shilling. Paul knows about this rule, right Paul?

The other stuff is in the charter. Welcome to the forum.

Now getting back to logic 8. Can anyone tell me why it is said that Logic has better automation then lets say Pro tools? Can anyone tell me what Logics strong points are?

Thankyou

Its ages since I've used PT but I remember finding the Logic automation a lot better, especially if you're using PT/Logic without a decent control surface. There's a better range of curves you can create quickly with the mouse and the whole thing seems more intuitive and takes up less screen real-estate. This is especially true of Logic 8 which may well prompt me to abandon PC/Cubase and switch to Mac/Logic in the coming months.

Some strong points that Logic 8 has:
- Great price, strong feature set
- Very intuitive/ergonomic
- Excellent virtual instruments and decent effects out of the box
- No proprietary interface necessary

I don't see Logic stealing a huge chunk of PTs market (i.e. pro studios) but I think it'll continue to do very strongly among home users and electronic musicians. I don't see any reason it shouldn't be used in a pro studio environment but there are others here better educated at making that call than me.

Having said all that, and before another "which DAW is best" war is sparked off, I suppose my views are subjective and people will generally have skewed opinions depending on which package they've used the most. There's no doubt that Logic 8 is a great piece of kit though.

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

I am stupid for taking you on, real sorry.. Next time I will think better and keep a calm head. I just exploded. SSL desk!! come on you brought him for pints after, didn't you???. You know the ska? Let us all in on it?

I know nothing....... but if I did I'd keep an eye on the Frankfurt MusicMesse...

PaulBrewer

Or do I........

dav nagle

Cornbb,


Sounds like Logic could be fun. Thanks for the info. I was talking to studio rat today and he said Logic is easy to create with and explore and have fun. When recording clients I like the robust feel of Pro tools but as a songwriter I am looking for something that can belt out demos as rough sketches on the fly. I also am looking for more midi fun! I am excited.

dav nagle

By the way Cornbb thankyou for welcoming me to the forum

cornbb

dav nagle wrote: »

Cornbb,


Sounds like Logic could be fun. Thanks for the info. I was talking to studio rat today and he said Logic is easy to create with and explore and have fun. When recording clients I like the robust feel of Pro tools but as a songwriter I am looking for something that can belt out demos as rough sketches on the fly. I also am looking for more midi fun! I am excited.

Yeah, I forgot to mention its superior MIDI/scoring/composition facilities. The MIDI stuff and plugin instruments are a huge draw for anyone who leans towards that sort of stuff, its where the likes of Logic/Cubase really shine in comparison to PT.

dav nagle wrote: »

By the way Cornbb thankyou for welcoming me to the forum

Don't mention it, the more the merrier!

trackmixstudio

Next week I am meeting a couple of interested venues about holding the 3 day course.
The course costs in the region of €700 and ends with an online exam.
If you pass the exam, you earn the title of Apple Certified Pro for logic.
Please post here or PM me if you are interested so I can get an idea of numbers.
If this is considered soliciting by the Mods I apologize.
Michael
http://www.apple.com/software/pro/training/courses/logic101.html

dav nagle

Trackmixstudio,

I cant afford the Pro Logic course at the moment, will there be more in the future?


Thankyou

Dav

Ella_Guru

Hi Michael, I wonder if you can help me with two problems.

1) I have a Motu 8Pre hooked into my firewire 400 port (on macbook pro) and a Wiebetech Toughtech XE into the firewire 800 port.
When I go to record an audio track onto the FW800 drive the spinning beach ball appears for approx. 20 seconds before i can record. I end up recording all audio to the internal hard drive now, which defeats the purpose of getting the external drive. Can you offer any solution, or cause? I heard the FW400 will slow down FW800 devices due to sharing the same controller, but even still this wait seems excessive. There is an esata port on the toughtech, but I'd rather find out what the problem is before spending more money.

2) When trying to recall screensets within Logic Pro 8, I can't recall those above 9. Well, at the start I might be able to, but after a while, holding the CTRL key just recalls the first number pressed. (e.g. trying to recall screenset 31 results in screenset 3 being displayed). This is driving me crazy as i don't like reaching for the mouse every time i need to change display. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

trackmixstudio

Hi Ella,
For your first question.
This is a common problem, but easily solved.
Open disk utility (applications>utilities) and turn OFF journaling on the firewire drive. This will 100% solve this problem.
As for your second question, I will look into for you. I don't use screen sets as I use 2 22" monitors with arrange on one and mixer on the other.
Michael

studiorat

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Next week I am meeting a couple of interested venues about holding the 3 day course.
The course costs in the region of €700 and ends with an online exam.
If you pass the exam, you earn the title of Apple Certified Pro for logic.
Please post here or PM me if you are interested so I can get an idea of numbers.
If this is considered soliciting by the Mods I apologize.
Michael
http://www.apple.com/software/pro/training/courses/logic101.html

Why don't you hold the course in the your studio? If you are still looking for venues I may be able to help...

That chap on the photo in the link must be getting shocking reflections off all those monitors...

trackmixstudio

Hi Studiorat,
Please contact me at snip to discuss this. I will send you my phone number.
Michael

Mod edit: please exchange contact information via private message

Cheers,
cornbb

Ella_Guru

Hi Again,

Unfortunately the journalling option doesn't seem too work. The disk wasn't journalled (that i could see). Any further pointers would be appreciated.

Ella_Guru

Actually, correction, you were right.

So I partitioned the external drive. One of the partitions was formatted as not journaled, previously the entire disk was partitioned as "Mac OSX extended (Journaled)".

Anyway, thanks a million for the help, very much appreciated. I've been searching for months and couldn't find anything online.

.....all that remains are those pesky screensets : )

trackmixstudio

Hi Ella,
Glad the journaling thing was the problem.
As for the screensets, I checked on my macbook and mac pro and screensets works as expected, so it's not a V8 bug.
There are 2 things you could try in this order.
1. Your key commands may be corrupt. Open preferences>key commands, then in the options menu export key commands (to desktop). This is a safety backup. I don't know if you have any custom key commands. Then, also under options, initialize all key commands.
2. navigate to your home folder>library>preferences and drag the file "com.apple.logic.pro.plist" to your desktop then start logic. Logic will then create a new default preferences file (this process is referred to as "trashing preferences"). Note that any preferences you have changed from default will have to be changed again.
If neither of these sort out the problem, post again, but it should work.
Michael

Ella_Guru

Hi Michael,

Unfortunately that didn't work.

So it happens, when I select the single digit number.

For example I can select all the 80's (81,82,83 etc...) until I select 8. Then if I hold ctrl and press 83 (for example), it brings me immediately to screenset 8.

So I could use screensets in the 20's, 30's, 40's etc, until I select the first number of them as a screenset.

I guess the way around it is to never use single number screensets, but I'd rather find out what the problem is as it really slows things down for me.


Thanks.

dav nagle

I heard I can record midi from BFD2 into logic. When I arm the midi track and record a groove no midi appears to be recording but if I play beats using my midi keyboard the midi is recorded, surely I can record grooves into logics midi sequencer and edit things from there? Any ideas please?
Got it, just had to export the drum midi into logic (easy)

trackmixstudio

Hi Dav. will look at your problem next week if you still haven't got it sorted.
Last day of the logic trainer course tomorrow. Started it on Tuesday. SERIOUSLY heavy going.
I get home (from london) Saturday afternoon and will sleep 'til monday!.
Apple training HQ is unbelievably high tech.
There are only 3 guys in the world who train trainers!
I have learned a massive amount of extra sh1t that I could have never found out on my own. They go really deep into the software on the trainer course.
I had to teach a lesson to the rest of the class yesterday and today. Really intimidating with 7 other trainees, the trainer and the European head of pro apps training sitting there, especially when we were only told what lessons we will be doing last week.
It has really been get up, go to course, back to hotel, eat, prepare for next day, sleep, get up......
On top of this I have been away from my wife for valentines day!
Been a great experience but now I can't wait to get home.
Will post early next week and let you all know how I got on.
Michael

dav nagle

Sounds like one of the most intense (but interesting) experiences I have ever heard. These guys that are training you must be coders and know the system. I worked out the problem I was having and as usual it was something simple really. With regards to valentines there is a really cool program on the Mac called 'Comic life' where you can put together photos with speech bubbles. Without giving my romantic side away it worked a treat with my girlfriend today. I left making her a card down to the wire because I was enjoying the Logic experience so much. I slapped on Comic life and before I knew it I had made her a comic of our trip to the zoo last weekend with speech bubbles coming out of monkeys heads pretending it was us.... anyway she taught the comic was great and as usual I got away with murder. Any logic tips and tricks would certainly be candy!


Rock out and sleep well you have a big day ahead of you, as for me I am connecting my blood stream to a USB cable and plugging myself into Logic for the day.

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Hi Dav. will look at your problem next week if you still haven't got it sorted.
Last day of the logic trainer course tomorrow. Started it on Tuesday. SERIOUSLY heavy going.
I get home (from london) Saturday afternoon and will sleep 'til monday!.
Apple training HQ is unbelievably high tech.
There are only 3 guys in the world who train trainers!
I have learned a massive amount of extra sh1t that I could have never found out on my own. They go really deep into the software on the trainer course.
I had to teach a lesson to the rest of the class yesterday and today. Really intimidating with 7 other trainees, the trainer and the European head of pro apps training sitting there, especially when we were only told what lessons we will be doing last week.
It has really been get up, go to course, back to hotel, eat, prepare for next day, sleep, get up......
On top of this I have been away from my wife for valentines day!
Been a great experience but now I can't wait to get home.
Will post early next week and let you all know how I got on.
Michael

ICN

cornbb wrote: »

First question: have there been any significant improvements behind the scenes (i.e. to the audio engine) since Logic 7? I still seem to get annoying "engine overload" messages (forget what the exact wording is) when I'm running relatively few tracks/plugins. I'm using a well-specced Mac Pro. Any hints on optimising Logic, Core Audio and the machine in general?

Just to let you know cornbb...

I tried the Logic 8.0.1 upgrade. If you have the opportunity to upgrade to this, dont. It was actually unusable. Audio engine overload 101001 (or whatever) messages appearing the whole time. It really annoying as Logic stops playback when this happens. There is no point switching off the message in the pref.. need to fix the problem rather than ignore it.

I decided to reinstall Logic 8.0.0. Still had the problem.. Not as bad as 8.0.1 - but as good as it was previously. Still annoying though!

So.. After much messing around, I think I know what the problem is.. It seems pretty obvious. "Audio engine overload" is telling you about clipping or distortion.

Any AU's / synths etc.. I turned them down a little - to prevent any distortion.

I also turned all the channels down a bit too - just made sure that they dont go into the red or over 0db - and guess what? I have not seen the message since.

Seems too easy to be true.. but it seems to have worked for me (so far!!! LOL). All that it took was balancing the levels a little bit better. Its best practice I suppose.

There are lots of bugs in Logic 8 - strange graphics and it does crash a bit - but this is one I've appeared to be able to fix. There must be a mercury tilt switch under the audio engine :eek: Haha!

cornbb

ICN wrote: »

So.. After much messing around, I think I know what the problem is.. It seems pretty obvious. "Audio engine overload" is telling you about clipping or distortion.

Really?? Thats weird, I would have thought that sort of message was referring to some sort of buffer underrun problem. I wouldn't have thought that clipping signals would throw a spanner in the audio engine's works.

I'll bear that in mind next time I'm running Logic and see if it improves things.

ICN

I've been looking all over the Net for a solution. It doesnt matter how I adjusted the buffer etc.. problem remained.

Other people with Mac Pro's - with 8gb of Ram.. Lifelong, proper hardcore users / professionals, are having the exact same problem. They're running scripts when they are using Logic to give it priority with their Ram.

Seems ridicolous when you have this big monster Mac Pro.. but it just goes to show that no matter what you do the problem is still there. Some people think its to do with the way that Logic works with AU's etc.. something to do with the way it anticipates the resources that they require in the program (my own simplified explanation).

To cut a long story short, either its a bug - or we're doing something wrong.

Its worked for me so far anyway - Hope it works for yourself!!

I'd be interested to hear how you get on Mate.

cornbb

ICN wrote: »

To cut a long story short, either its a bug - or we're doing something wrong.

Its worked for me so far anyway - Hope it works for yourself!!

I'd be interested to hear how you get on Mate.

I'll try it out on our Mac Pro at work when I get a chance. Whatever the problem is, and for all of Logic 8's excellent features, I think its pretty unacceptable that the audio engine could wuss out on such a well-equipped machine.

I'll report back next time I get to try it out.

trackmixstudio

WOOHOO!
Passed the logic certified trainer course. I have a few meetings over the next week to try and finalize a venue. It has to be taught at an Apple certified training centre.
As for the "audio overload message" problem, audio clipping is unlikely to be anything to do with it. Logic (pre V8) used to issue a warning if you clipped a certain number of samples. Haven't seen that in V8 so it may be gone. I never clip the input so I'm not sure.
I run a quad 2.6 mac pro with 4GB ram in the studio with an RME PCIe digiface and never get audio overload messages. It runs smoooth. I can record 20 tracks at once on 32 buffer no hassle.
One possible scenario could be a firewire interface and firewire drive on at the same time. Although there are several firewire ports, they are all on the same bus. Using a PCIe firewire card is a good idea if you are using 2 or more high bandwidth devices.
My liquidmix has its own firewire card and it works much better than when it was on a built in firewire port (I used to have a fireface800).
Also check your system profiler and check if your RAM value in there matches what you have installed. Bad RAM can cause all sorts of problems and Macs are REAL fussy when it comes to RAM.
I'm sure you know about repairing disk permissions and trashing preferences.
Another thing to try is to set up a new user account and run logic in it. If it works OK there, the problem is something to do with your user account.
Hope these suggestions help the find the cause.
Michael

ICN

Congrats Michael.. Good feeling, eh?! Well done to you!


Back to the aul overload messages.. hahaha!:)

I don't know.. I can only speak for myself.. Its works for me so far.

I've had a few bits of troubleshooting to do over the last few months (teething problems with the Mac & usb devices etc..) - so much so that I must have racked up weeks worth of time on the Net searching for answers.

I now know that Mac's are a bit fussy.. But I cannot understand why these Quads come to a standstill possibly over "issue x" - that affects lots and no-one has an answer for.. Apple keep taking down the threads from their own website!

Sure, there are a lot of things that can cause it to grind to a halt.. Usb / Firewire.. I've heard it all now. But that is the safe explanation. A blanket reason. There are Guys out there with near identical systems - One is running fantastic, the other is an expensive stop/start nightmare.

Changing my working practices has improved this problem for me. I'm refining what I do a little more and I guess its part of the trial & error that you must go through if you have never gone on a course. I suppose I work in a rawer way that those who have been trained properly.

I suppose that people in forums can be too defensive or reserved to suggest that it might be the user that is the common denominator here.. I think we just assume that its the fault of the machine. Maybe its just sensitive.. Logic 8 definitely still has the overload message box option in preferences.

I personally think that my bad technique made the problem worse. I wasn't going MAD and cranking everything up or anything - but you need to work backwards to pinpoint the problem.

It happens with usb plugged in / out - firewire plugged in / out / on / off / changed the Ram - Been through the lot.

The demo tunes play perfectly every time. Why is that?

IMO - Because they aren't clipping all over the place.

I'd say your work is well behaved and levelled correctly.. You've got a great set up without saying. It would be awful to have this problem with all the €€€'s gone into it..

But it is happening to some & not to others.. I personally think its all about technique. There might be other contributing factors.. However, maybe I'm lucky that its just the distortion that is triggering the error for me.

Apologies for the rant!

trackmixstudio

Here is a very important hint to stop you peaking anything.
Go to the main options menu>audio. Make sure prefade metering is ON.
Not sure what the default is but I think it is off.
When prefade metering is on, the channel level meter always shows the "real" level regardless of fader position. This is much better because if you insert, for example, a compressor, it is very easy to peak the channel and not even know if you have the fader below zero db when prefade is off.
Also, when using 24 bit audio (YOU SHOULD BE!), squashing your mix into the master output at full volume is not a great idea. With 24 bit you have a great dynamic range available and it is generally the professional opinion that it is better to mix down at -6(ish) db and then bring the level up on the stereo bounced audio file, either by bringing it back into logic or using a stereo editor such as Bias Peak or (too good to be free!) Audacity.
This applies to all DAWs, not just Logic.
Do a google for "daw gain staging" for detailed info.

ICN

Hi Michael - Thats some great advice. I've actually being doing that (dropping the master).. just makes sense after the problem I (eventually) identified.

Feel like I just re-invented the wheel! hahaha!

Nice one Mate - appreciate the tips!

trackmixstudio

OK. Lets do some Logic tips. I think the board could do with something constructive at this point :-)
AUTOMATION
Heres a few workflow tricks.
1. If you want to write automation for an aux or your master, put automation mode to read on the mixer and they magically appear on the arrange window.

2. When you are viewing automation on the arrange window, the little disclosure arrow to the left of the automation mode below the track name on the arrange window opens another automation "lane" where you can select another parameter.

3. If you cntrl/option click on a line between 2 automation nodes, you can drag a curve.

4. If you want to copy automation from one part of a song to another part, hold shift and rubberband the nodes. You can then option drag the automation to copy it. Particularly useful if you automate a chorus, for example, and want the same automation on the next chorus.

5.When you click drag across an area using the marquee (crosshairs) tool, then use the arrow tool to drag up or down on the selected area, you will find that 4 nodes have been created, 2 at the start of the area and 2 at the end. VERY VERY useful for writing volume automation for areas.

BTW the option key is the "alt" key.

Tomorrow I will do the "step input keyboard". a very useful, but often overlooked, midi function which is great for doing drum rolls and arpeggios or fast sequences or basslines, and using the Hyper Editor for writing drum loops.
Michael

trackmixstudio

Will somebody please post how to put screenshots in a post. I will need to do this for the next 2 things I am going to post.

brettzy

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Will somebody please post how to put screenshots in a post. I will need to do this for the next 2 things I am going to post.

You can use the "prtscn" button on your keyboard and paste it into word to resize it then copy it to your post.

cornbb

Presuming you are using a Mac ( ) then hit CMD + Shift + 4. This will give you a crosshairs - use it to select the area you want to take a screenshot of. It'll save it on your desktop (eg Picture 1.png).

You can then either attach it to your post (click Go Advanced to find the attachments button) or embed it in the post by hosting it online somewhere (try http://wthax.org/) and putting the url between [img][/img] tags like this: [img][/img]http://wthax.org/imagename.png

Excellent post btw, it might be worth adding them to the "tips and pointers" thread at the top of the forum if you want them to be a bit more visible. Keep up the good work!

ICN

cornbb wrote: »

Excellent post btw, it might be worth adding them to the "tips and pointers" thread at the top of the forum if you want them to be a bit more visible. Keep up the good work!

I'd second that..