Abraham's Sacrifice

JimiTime

TBH, i think brian has been quite clear in what he said. Scripture is the filter. An honest 'real' christian will know if a being appeared saying, 'kill your son', they could cite 'Vengeance is Gods', 'Love your neighbour and enemy'. they would also know by the new testament, the the ways of Christ and his people are peaceful. If a voice asked you to perform something that was ungodly, then we would know its not God. Also, if it was a demonic being, the very mention of Christ will make them shudder, and christ would indeed protect his flock from such a thing. However, if there is a deluded Psycho with a desire to kill his son, then he may well tell himself 'god told me to do it'. If you wish to call this man a christian so you have some ammo, then work away, your intentions are dishonourable to begin with. Equally if you wish to argue along the lines of 'who's to say he's not a real christian etc', that is equally dishonourable. The simple answer is what Brian has said, we will know our masters voice. Christians will be christians, pycho's will be psycho's. Would I kill my son if a being appeared and said do it? No, not a hope. Why? Because I know God wouldn't ask it of me. If I had regular one to ones with God, was blessed with a Son from a barren woman after an angel telling me it, then warned of an impending fire from the heavens which was going to consume a city and i then witnessed this event, then was continually blessed by this being directly, then my answer would be yes, if i was in Abrahams shoes, i hope I would have the faith and cop on to obey my Lord. If your rhetorical question is merely, 'if a voice in a dream said kill your son' then of course I wouldn't bloomin do it!

Akrasia

JimiTime wrote: »

Also, if it was a demonic being, the very mention of Christ will make them shudder,

How do you know that?

and christ would indeed protect his flock from such a thing.

How would he do that?

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote: »

Do you hear a voice speaking in your head? Do you suddenly think of an unexpected idea? Do you hear a disembodied voice? Do you start writing without conscious control? Do you open the bible at random and put your finger on a phrase that turns out to have a special meaning? Something else?

Yes, to all and any of the above. God communicates in different ways to different people. My wife hears an audible voice, I get it through ideas that I could never think of and the feeling of peace that comes with said idea.

Then there is the filter of God's word.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

Well one would think that bring your child up a mountain to kill him wouldn't be "consistent" with the teaching of Christ/God either.

Which is kinda the point in the first place. .

ohhh wicknight, wicknight, wicknight.

There was no Bible at the time for Abraham to go through. Abraham was in direct contact with God. God had performed many miracles and had intervened many time sin teh life of Abraham up to this point.

Abraham had faith, and no Bible to test the instruction against.

Wicknight wrote: »

Well because he could be telling you to fly a plane into a building. Or sacrifice your second born child.

I hope that if "he" did you wouldn't. But TBH that is more hope that anything else. Conversations like this don't fill me with a whole lot of confidence.

But He wouldn't do that because it would be contrary to Biblical teaching. So if teh little voice said to me, 'kill your second born', I'd know the source of the little voice wasn't God.

BrianCalgary

Akrasia wrote: »

How do you know that?

Teh Bible tells us so.

Popinjay

JimiTime wrote: »

If your rhetorical question is merely, 'if a voice in a dream said kill your son' then of course I wouldn't bloomin do it!

Sorry... I was actually thinking at the time that I started this thread that I should clarify that a little bit. The reason I didn't escapes me now. Anyway, I meant if you 'knew' that it really was God would you be able to carry out this request/order (Can it really be considered a request if a being of absolute power 'asks' you to do something? My boss doesn't have absolute power but I can pretty much take a "Would you mind getting X done today?" as "X better get done today or we'll be having unpleasant words later.")

By the way, how can you say that you know God wouldn't ask it of you? He might.

JimiTime

Popinjay wrote: »

By the way, how can you say that you know God wouldn't ask it of you? He might.

The same way I 'know' that my best friend won't ask me to set myself on fire.

Soul Winner

Akrasia wrote: »

Your answer is that god is always right, therefore everything he does is always right, even if it seems really really wrong, and if if totally contradicts the morality that he tells us to always stick by.

What would have happened to Abraham if he had refused gods request? (I think this is much more interesting a question)

That's easy. Abraham disobeyed God on many occasions, but God didn't cast him off. He stuck with him. When God told Him to leave his family and home and go to a place that He will show him he only left home but not his family. He still had Lot his nephew with him. It was only when Lot was separated from him that God then said "Arise, look northward, southward, eastward and westward and where ever your feet touch I will give it you and your descendants for ever" When God said this is the place, a famine hit and Abraham fled to Egypt. On the way he conceived a lie with his wife Sarah that if an Egyptian asks her if Abraham is her wife she is to say no that He was her brother. This was done because in order to get his wife the Egyptians would have to kill Abraham. I know a strange kind of honour. Anyway he failed God many times in his life but God never forsook him and nearing the end of his life his faith with God was so strong that he would have done anything God said because he trusted Him. Wiki's funny walk back to the donkeys jibe is not altogether accurate. Before he brought Isaac up to the Hill he said to His servants; "wait here and WE shall return.” Isaac asked Abraham; “Where is the sacrifice” to which Abraham replied; “God will provide.” Isaac was the child that God had already promised to Abraham that it would be through him (Isaac) that He (God) would bless the world, Abraham was so fixed in his faith at that stage in his life having walked with God for years and seeing his ways that he believed that even if he did sacrifice his son that God world raise him from the dead in order to fulfil what God had before promised would be done through him.

This is real solid faith and God treasures it beyond anything else we can do for Him. Would I be able to do what Abraham did should God ask me today? Not at this stage of my development but I "press toward the mark" as Paul would say. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13 Abraham's toughest test came at the end of his life; Jesus' toughest test came at the end of His earthly ministry, so by that reckoning I can ascertain that my own toughest test will come in my latter years when I am ready for it.

Gulp

Akrasia

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Teh Bible tells us so.

Jesus isn't doing a very good job at saving children from demonic cults like 'Godhatesfags.com"

These are young people who have given everything to jesus, but have been taught a hateful and disgusting version of christianity. Why doesn't Jesus speak to these kids and tell them that they are following the wrong path (or do you believe they are genuinely following Gods teachings?)

BrianCalgary

Akrasia wrote: »

Jesus isn't doing a very good job at saving children from demonic cults like 'Godhatesfags.com"

These are young people who have given everything to jesus, but have been taught a hateful and disgusting version of christianity. Why doesn't Jesus speak to these kids and tell them that they are following the wrong path (or do you believe they are genuinely following Gods teachings?)

Good question.

God is speaking to them, they just aren't listening.

The oucome of such a website and attitude is hatred. The outcome of a spirit filled life is: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. (Galatians 5:22-23a)

Wheras the opposite is also true: The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

I have highlighted what I believe could be the outcome of approaches like godhatesfags.com (th esame group also says godhatescanada.com).

So getting back to the original premise of checking against scripture: if one checks the message against scripture and the result of such an action they would see that the whole concept of godhatesfags.com is against God.

PDN

Akrasia wrote: »

Jesus isn't doing a very good job at saving children from demonic cults like 'Godhatesfags.com"

Actually I think He is.

There are hundreds of millions of Christian children and yet you can count on the fingers of one hand those who are (tragically) ensnared Fred Phelp's odious little cult. The rest of the Christian Church, by patiently teaching Scriptural virtues like love, patience and compassion, ensure that Godhatesfags.com can only ever attract a tiny following.

Of course such violent homophobia can find a much greater support in nations where Christianity is suppressed (hence the execution of homosexuals, with strong public support, in officially atheist or Islamic nations).

DinoBot

Just in case people are feeling left out, God also hates Ireland: :rolleyes:

http://www.godhatesireland.com/

PDN

DinoBot wrote: »

Just in case people are feeling left out, God also hates Ireland: :rolleyes:

http://www.godhatesireland.com/

Hilarious stuff. These people truly are demented. I often have to double check to see if such sites are genuine or a parody, but the genuine ones are actually nuttier than the parodies.

hairyheretic

I'm fairly sure that one is authentic. God seems to hate a lot, eh? At least according to Fred there.

Popinjay

Oh that one is authentic alright. This is a predominantly Catholic country and Mr. Phelps isn't too fond of the Catholics.

To compound it all, his daughter, or at least one of them, was ridiculed for her... eh... unusual beliefs on Irish radio (or was it TV). There's a thread on it somewhere around these parts that I have a vague recollection of reading during my long period of lurking.

So yes, God really hates Ireland it would seem.