communism - how it went wrong

conor2007

communism - great idea - too bad it was implemented by a crazy russian

skimpy - vague comment i know - but you get the gist


what do ye think?

Morlar

conor2007 wrote: »

communism - great idea - too bad it was implemented by a crazy russian

skimpy - vague comment i know - but you get the gist


what do ye think?

Dont normally point people to music videos but this one has some facts and figures in the background that might be useful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyUu-8nbd58

scruff321

seems like a good idea in theory but in practise proved over andd over again that doesnt work

conor2007

okay

do people believe it could work - or now given the way it is viewed - could it have worked given the right leader/s ?

Morlar

conor2007 wrote: »

okay

do people believe it could work - or now given the way it is viewed - could it have worked given the right leader/s ?

If you are ok with totalitarianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

and believe in the eternal and fundamental good nature of your superiors who are 'in charge' then its probably for you.

conor2007

ahahaha

right so capitalism is better ?
who is in control there?

i didnt say it had to be communism in that aspect or in the aspect that the video showed

it doesnt need a ''dictator'' - hence the russians screwing it up - which is what happened effectively

Lux23

I think its all a matter of personal freedom and choice. With capitalism it is possible to opt out and live a different sort of life, there will always be a need for some money to be made from somewhere but you still have a choice.

But with communism everyone had to follow the same drudgery and one couldn't just decide they wanted to be a capitalist and make as much money as they possibly could. Its not compatable with the human condition not to want to strive for more than those around you.

AckwelFoley

Capitalism nor commuinism work..

Extreme left or right leave a country in a mess.

Left of, or right of centre is what has been proven to work

conor2007

like in ireland? england ? america ? france ?

that doesnt seem to work either

AckwelFoley

conor2007 wrote: »

like in ireland? england ? america ? france ?

that doesnt seem to work either

huh?

where works then if our system is a failure, give me one sucessful model where the citizes are not opressed and have a decent standard of living..

Show me.. please

conor2007

there would be plenty of examples if half the countries in the world were ****ed up by capitalists

sin é as they say - thats life as we know it

doesnt have to be liek it is tho

AckwelFoley

Ireland is not a capitalist country, nor are we communits..

We hace a centerist government, where free enterprise supports the goiovernment coffers..

I want you or anyone, to point out to me one country in the world that has a better system than having a left or rigt of centre government.

Extreme systems dont work

Morlar

Ireland is a capitalist country- sorry dude. Capitalism is not extremist, fascism and communism are extremist ideloogies based on far left and far right - capitalism is not an extremist ideology.

boneless

Morlar wrote: »

Ireland is a capitalist country- sorry dude. Capitalism is not extremist, fascism and communism are extremist ideloogies based on far left and far right - capitalism is not an extremist ideology.

Capitalism is the epitomy of economic freedom. That's why it works. It is also why we have under-devoloped nations and people working for slave wages in these countries. As long as the richer nations are willing to consume goods produced in these circumstances without question, capitalism will grow and grow. It is only when our nation starts to be hit by these economic practices, eg. the moving of jobs to countries where wages are lower or the health and safety laws are lax, that we give out. However, how many people here still buy Nikes or other logo and brand driven goods, even though they know how and where they are made?

conor2007

freedom for white people - is that what you mean?

Morlar

conor2007 wrote: »

freedom for white people - is that what you mean?

I think he means economic freedom for people with money.

conor2007

white people with money

africans had money
asians had money
etc etc

white europeans coined the term and made capitalism

AckwelFoley

Morlar wrote: »

Ireland is a capitalist country- sorry dude. Capitalism is not extremist, fascism and communism are extremist ideloogies based on far left and far right - capitalism is not an extremist ideology.

You are correct.

Captialism seems however to get slated by the left as a right wing only tool.

Im far far from right wing, but Capitalism creates the wealth of a nation. Its a simple fact. How its managed is a different thing. Too high of taxation kills individuals incentive, too low taxation leaves a nation lacking in funds to run a country

brianthebard

Lux23 wrote: »

But with communism everyone had to follow the same drudgery and one couldn't just decide they wanted to be a capitalist and make as much money as they possibly could. Its not compatable with the human condition not to want to strive for more than those around you.

What happened in the USSR, or indeed China or Cuba, is not communism, it is rule by dictator with wages controlled by the government. Thats about the height of it. Communism is not about forcing people to "follow the same drudgery". Communism is about just that-communities actively participating in the governing of themselves, working together and sharing equally in the gains.

conor2007

communist has not been done as it was meant

freedom of thought is allowed
no dictator

no poor .. . .

Morlar

brianthebard wrote: »

What happened in the USSR, or indeed China or Cuba, is not communism,

Thats just a ridiculous thing to say.

AckwelFoley

Who creates the wealth in communism?

What extra rewards are there for those who have better minds or those that work harder?

conor2007

the satisfaction that they didnt kill someone to get a bigger house or car

brianthebard

Morlar wrote: »

Thats just a ridiculous thing to say.

Not if you actually know what communism is about or have read some Marx.:rolleyes:

Edit: Even the names of the states I listed aren't communist by their own admission, it is those in the west who see communism as a threat that label them as such.

conor2007

true

communism was warped - people have a view on it - not an accurate view of it

Morlar

brianthebard wrote: »

Not if you actually know what communism is about or have read some Marx.:rolleyes :

I do know a thing or two about communism and have read marx. Ta muchly. That is still a completely ridiculous thing to say.

conor2007

how is it?

Zulu

How do I quench my greed?

The fact is, people are greedy. People what something better. Be it a bigger house, a faster car, a more beautiful partner. It's human nature. It's a basic urge. An individual may suppress it, but a state can't.

conor2007

it doesnt have to be done my opressing other people (whole races/countries)

AckwelFoley

Zulu wrote: »

How do I quench my greed?

The fact is, people are greedy. People what something better. Be it a bigger house, a faster car, a more beautiful partner. It's human nature. It's a basic urge. An individual may suppress it, but a state can't.

This is the smartest thing said in this thread so far.

Communism sounds great, however it kills people will to progress and work harder as there is no reward for extra effort, if there were, then all would not be equal.

People deserve to reap the rewards of their work. More you work better you do.

Communism in its ideal is made with the best intentions, but its fundamently flawed, and never works

Rossibaby

you say that irelands capitalist nature works?? are you aware of the figures of child poverty north and south of the border in ireland? roughly 10% live in conditions of poverty.that doesnt matter though while some business owner of a super chain store doesnt work and hasnt worked for years flies around in private helicopters. communism can work,and socialism is a step towards that.cuba is not a communist state but a socialist one.it has better health care than america??what socialism has brought to that country is amazing.now compare that to other latin american countries and the state they're in

AckwelFoley

I would like you to give that little speech to the thousands of cubans that flee the country in makshift rafts and die along the way.

Tell them how much better cuba is. :rolleyes:

Rossibaby

im not comparing cuba to ireland,im comparing it to countries with more likeness such as latin american countries.its a matter of opinion,but socialism is what i believe in and watered down socialists and capitalists are what i dont

AckwelFoley

Rossibaby wrote: »

im not comparing cuba to ireland,im comparing it to countries with more likeness such as latin american countries.its a matter of opinion,but socialism is what i believe in and watered down socialists and capitalists are what i dont

The world is a large place. I challange you to name one country in the entire world that has a hard left socialist government, and has a decent standard of living for its citizens, similar to western europeans.

1 rule, it must be a nation where the citizens are free leave the country as the please.

Have fun.

Rossibaby

do not presume i will go looking on google now lol....you little game will not endear me to change my views on socialism as i believe it is for the best for the people

AckwelFoley

Rossibaby wrote: »

do not presume i will go looking on google now lol....you little game will not endear me to change my views on socialism as i believe it is for the best for the people

lol, its not a game, im serious.

Just one country.

If you or anyone can show me a nation as described, i vow to vote for Sinn Fein / Green or the party of your choice next election

Go'on do it for socialism.. you could win a vote!

PeakOutput

from my understanding of communism its a great theory but will never work in practice.

from my understanding of anarchism its a great theory but it will never work in practice.

the reason why, in my limited knowledge, is that it dosnt take ambition into account people strive to improve if they feel they are going nowhere they will either stop trying = no productivity or do whatever it takes to improve their lot = corruption / criminality.

now you can say well if they do that its not communism or not anarchism but there will ALWAYS be people with the above mentalities in every community and i believe there will always be enough to ensure the models above will never work.

what does work is democracy. cuba has one good thing going for it that i can see and thats its healthcare system. it is a dictatorship however and i imagine if there was any chance of the dictator being overthrown by the people he would resort to the same tactics every other dictator does, if he hasnt already, submission by extreme force.

democracy works because it accounts for everyone. the majority hold capitalist ideals and therefore the countries are run as such. when the majority supports a leftist government ill think they are stone cold crazy but ill do everything in my power to make sure they have their leftist government.

Morlar

Rossibaby wrote: »

do not presume i will go looking on google now lol....

In soviet russia google looks on you ! Well not anymore as its not communist - the point is the internet in communist china looks on you.

Re the bet - the key part is 'freedom to leave'. If communism was based on freedom then the countries that have tried it would not have had to take measures preventing anyone from leaving. 'Utopia' shouldnt need walls and locks on the doors to keep people in now should it.

AckwelFoley

Morlar wrote: »

In soviet russia google looks on you ! Well not anymore as its not communist - the point is the internet in communist china looks on you.

Re the bet - the key part is 'freedom to leave'. If communism was based on freedom then the countries that have tried it would not have had to take measures preventing anyone from leaving. 'Utopia' shouldnt need walls and locks on the doors to keep people in now should it.

Well exactly..

Communism prevents people leaving to get a better life else where, because communism does not allow freedon, freedom of choice, freedom of expression, freedom to speak out simply because it doesnt work, so they need these laws to shut the people up and keep them in

@ PeakOutput, from your post, id say your knowledge is far from limited

Rossibaby

who do you vote for,blueshirts?

ejmaztec

Communism would only work if the whole world were under the thumb of one Communist dictator. The equality aspect of it would never work in any circumstances. The mere fact that there would be leaders would negate that.


Also, OP, Karl Marx was a crazy German/Prussian, not a crazy Russian.

brianthebard

snyper wrote: »

This is the smartest thing said in this thread so far.

Communism sounds great, however it kills people will to progress and work harder as there is no reward for extra effort, if there were, then all would not be equal.

People deserve to reap the rewards of their work. More you work better you do.

Communism in its ideal is made with the best intentions, but its fundamently flawed, and never works

Again that's a completely flawed look at communism, although it may be informed by people's opinions of why the USSR failed. There will still be reasons for people to work harder in a communist state, because if everyone works better, and the country produces more as a whole, then everyone will benefit more. It works on exactly the same principle as a capitalist state in that respect. Many people believe that communism means surrendering all individuality to the state and trusting that it will provide jobs, food, etc in return, but that is the complete antithesis of communism. As I already stated it is about communities running themselves. The central end goal of communism is to wipe away the very need for a centralised state power. Again I must reiterate that the USSR, Cuba and China, although they are frequently referred to as communist, are not and you will find that just about every leader in those states would/will admit to that.

Edit: for those that believe that communism prevents people trying to work harder, some socialists have theorised that the free market is actually a socialist ideal, rather than a capitalist one.

AckwelFoley

There will still be reasons for people to work harder in a communist state, because if everyone works better, and the country produces more as a whole, then everyone will benefit more. It works on exactly the same principle as a capitalist state in that respect. Many people believe that communism means surrendering all individuality to the state and trusting that it will provide jobs, food, etc in return, but that is the complete antithesis of communism.

1 example of a country where this is a success, and people are free to leave the country.

Give me 1 country in the world, and i will agree with you and vote Sinn Feinn in the next election.

Morlar

brianthebard wrote: »

There will still be reasons for people to work harder in a communist state,

There certainly are - if you dont you go to a camp or you get shot.

Whereas in a capitalist system if you work harder you can then afford better things for yourself not for your superiors or for your neighbours who are 'family-connected' to somone important and corrupt and lazy.

brianthebard wrote: »

because if everyone works better, and the country produces more as a whole, then everyone will benefit more.

This is the standard communist propaganda - I doubt this spiel has changed much since 1917.

brianthebard wrote: »

It works on exactly the same principle as a capitalist state in that respect. Many people believe that communism means surrendering all individuality to the state and trusting that it will provide jobs, food, etc in return, but that is the complete antithesis of communism.

I would like to see your evidence to back up this in a real life context.

brianthebard wrote: »

Again I must reiterate that the USSR, Cuba and China, although they are frequently referred to as communist, are not and you will find that just about every leader in those states would/will admit to that.

Your point here seems to be that people can not or should not criticise communism as practiced in China, russia etc on the basis of China, Russia are not 'perfect' examples of communism - but the fact is they are the most relevant examples in the history of earth and so therefore when judging communism in practice it is perfectly valid to take a long look at china, russia etc.

Thats just as silly as saying that 'you would be wrong to consider criticisms of capitalism as practiced in the united states' because the usa implementation has been subject to human flaw.

There is no such thing as a utopian ideal in real life everyday practice. We are free and correct to judge things on how they are not on how you think in an ideal universe they should or could someday be.

brianthebard wrote: »

Edit: for those that believe that communism prevents people trying to work harder, some socialists have theorised that the free market is actually a socialist ideal, rather than a capitalist one.

Who really cares what some socialists have theorised. Any idiot can theorise anything - your point here means nothing whatsoever imo.

brianthebard

The USSR, China and Cuba are only communist when people want to insult these nations. I've already pointed out why they failed to be communist. If someone was to set up a republic, but leave the monarchy as the head of state and not have democratic elections, would it still be a republic? Of course not! Just because something is lazily labelled one thing doesn't make it so. There's really no point in me arguing further until you can comprehend that simple point.

Gobán Saor

brianthebard wrote: »

The USSR, China and Cuba are only communist when people want to insult these nations. I've already pointed out why they failed to be communist. If someone was to set up a republic, but leave the monarchy as the head of state and not have democratic elections, would it still be a republic? Of course not! Just because something is lazily labelled one thing doesn't make it so. There's really no point in me arguing further until you can comprehend that simple point.

Fair enough, I agree that, in theory, these states are not what communism is supposed to be. However, isn't it the case that communism requires coercion to make it work? And the level of coercion required invariably leads on to totalitarianism, suppression of democracy and denial of human rights. Which brings us back to the USSR, China, Cuba and that favourite destination of Ireland's erstwhile stickies, The People's Democratic Republic (no less) of North Korea.:(

ejmaztec

I don't know why anyone would criticise North Korea after visiting their official website:cool:

http://www.korea-dpr.com/menu.htm

brianthebard

Gobán Saor wrote: »

Fair enough, I agree that, in theory, these states are not what communism is supposed to be. However, isn't it the case that communism requires coercion to make it work? And the level of coercion required invariably leads on to totalitarianism, suppression of democracy and denial of human rights. Which brings us back to the USSR, China, Cuba and that favourite destination of Ireland's erstwhile stickies, The People's Democratic Republic (no less) of North Korea.:(

Its true that most communists would probably believe in armed revolution, but if it were properly introduced communism wouldn't need coercion. If you look at the USSR, the soviets led a successful revolution but were then defeated in the polls, so Lenin took away the vote. When the Bolsheviks went against the popular voice they invalidated their position imo.

thusspakeblixa

I'm a believer in the Communist system (a Communist, if you will) and I think that discussing whether or not Communism has worked or not is irrelevant, because it has never been fully or properly implemented. Up to Stalin's takeover in 1924 Soviet Russia showed signs of ambition to become a true Communist state, but Lenin and Stalin both gave in and pandered to the whims of the Kulaks and Nepmen.
So yes, it could work, if implemented properly, it just hasn't been so far.

ejmaztec

thusspakeblixa wrote: »

I'm a believer in the Communist system (a Communist, if you will) and I think that discussing whether or not Communism has worked or not is irrelevant, because it has never been fully or properly implemented. Up to Stalin's takeover in 1924 Soviet Russia showed signs of ambition to become a true Communist state, but Lenin and Stalin both gave in and pandered to the whims of the Kulaks and Nepmen.
So yes, it could work, if implemented properly, it just hasn't been so far.

With corruption, elitism, abuse and human nature, it would never have worked.

Fratton Fred

ejmaztec wrote: »

With corruption, elitism, abuse and human nature, it would never have worked.

I think that's the key. Communism as a theory is great, but theories always presume a perfect world and this isn't.

Human nature is such that people are greedy and competitive, both things don't go well with "Pure" communism.