Crossfit - effects on fitness parameters

Racing Flat

Does anyone know if any research has been done to determine the effect of CrossFit training on fitness - eg studies that have done fitness tests before and after a Crossfit programme. If so, did it have a positive effect on fitness (and which parameters) and was it compared to other exercise regimes?
Thanks

Colm_OReilly

Interesting question, and one which I can't provide all the information to you but I'll make a case (largely quoting Glassman et al)

In order to test the efficacy of any program you must be able to provide data points which are measurable, observable and repeatable. So exercises effect on chi or chakras couldn't be used (by way of example)

Secondly, you'd also need a definition of fitness - we have ours here, which can be distilled into "work capacity across broad time and modal domains"

Now, as a global movement, Crossfit is open source and publishes it's results regularly (albeit not in a standard publication) on it's parent sites and worldwide affiliates. In that respect it's data is open for anyone to gather and evaluate. As to whether this has been done in a formal academic setting, I don't believe it has. I could be wrong here, so I've gone asking for you.

From our point of view in CF Ireland, every single time a WoD has been repeated the scores have improved for our participants, which would speak to gains in fitness.

From Glassman - "There's but one way to determine the efficacy of a fitness protocol: pit that system against a second system and test them both against the standards of a third. By this standard CrossFit has no peer."

From a personal anecdote, I've yet to see a competing concept of fitness put forth by anyone with the depth of knowledge and data as put forward by CF.

If you've any other questions, just ask.
Colm

Racing Flat

Great link.
The fact that WoD scores improve following CrossFit training is a good sign that fitness specific to the training improves. I just wonder whether considering it is a high intensity workout there would also be gains on a fitness test such as a treadmill test? I imagine there would. I would be interested to see how much the fitness would improve and what particular parameters would improve - ?lactate threshold, ?VO2max, and also how it would compare to a running programme or combined programme of running and CrossFit. Should be fairly easy to do this, just need some volunteers and perhaps a MSc Sports Medicine student keen to pursue this. I'm interested as a runner, in finding evidence based forms of cross-training which boost the other parameters of fitness such as strength and flexibility etc. which running may not best address, but it would be a bonus if the cross training also had a benefit on the parameters of fitness beneficial to running.
Seb Coe was one of the best runners of all time and he attributes lots of plyometric exercises as a key factor in his success, e.g. one exercise he did was hopping on 1 leg for 25metres - IIRC 10 is supposed to be exceptional, 9 world class athlete standard, but Seb could do it in 8. Also himself and Steve Ovett, another great, by all accounts could do a 'standing jump for height' (ie standing with your side to a wall, touching the wall with your hand, jump straight up and touch as high as you can) vastly superior to their peers.
While I'm sure most professional runners do these type exercises now, amateurs probably don't have/find the time. If there was evidence of benefits of this type of training they may be more inclibned to find the time, so if it's out there, great, if not, we need to do the research...

Colm_OReilly

Hey Racing Flat,

Great to see you exploring other avenues of fitness beyond what's prescribed in your sport. So rare to see that.

If you want more discussions about the science behind CrossFit, Tony Leyland and Lon Kilgore have written several articles over the last two years in the CFJ. If you can invest the $50 in the 2006/2007 volumes you'd get a lot of solid info.

As for VO2 Max, this is a correlate of fitness, and is activity specific. You will have a running VO2 Max, a cycling, VO2 Max, a deadlifting VO2 Max etc.

Brian MacKenzie, of Genetic Potential, is training his endurance and ultra endurance athletes using CrossFit workouts and interval sprints. He's publishing results and programs int eh CFJ and it looks very promising. It's remarkable how most runners/triathletes only think in terms of more hours rather than increasing strength, power, endurance etc.

It would be cool if you could make the Open Day saturday, I'd say you'd enjoy it.

Colm

amazingemmet

This isn't a technical comment but from my experience you get good at what you do regularly, so if your doing cf regularly you get better at cf, but how does it cross over?

Roper

That was going to be my question- I would expect Crossfitters to decrease the time they do their workouts in. If I were doing an obstacle course 3 times a week, I would expect to decrease my time over a certain period. Equally anyone lifting, running, jumping etc. could expect to have quantifiable results in that specific discipline.

So guess I'm asking if you have any empirical evidence as to the effectiveness of Crossfit over other modalities.

PS. not denying that Crossfit "works", just as to it's effectiveness as compared to other things!

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

That was going to be my question- I would expect Crossfitters to decrease the time they do their workouts in. If I were doing an obstacle course 3 times a week, I would expect to decrease my time over a certain period. Equally anyone lifting, running, jumping etc. could expect to have quantifiable results in that specific discipline.

So guess I'm asking if you have any empirical evidence as to the effectiveness of Crossfit over other modalities.

PS. not denying that Crossfit "works", just as to it's effectiveness as compared to other things!

I'm in the same boat as Roper and AE.

If I pull sets of 10 on deadlifts then my 10rm increases, my 3rm or 1rm probably won't. So am I becoming a better deadlifter?? Depends on what your idea of a good deadlifter is.

If training exclusively with CF made an athelte perform better at measurements in their sport, be it 40 yard time, shuttle drills, specific distances or whatever then maybe you could say it works, but unless it's something that's being studied you can't..

Also, using a beginner to show these improvements wouldnt' be a good measure since anything they do will make them "fitter". You'd have to use intermediate or advanced cases to see.

That's my 2c anyway!

Racing Flat

I suppose we're all referring to the specificity of training principle here. Whatever you train at you'll get better at that. I want to run faster so I do running training. If there was evidence that doing some form of cross training may improve my running performance, I may be inclined to do this. But if there is no cross over from the cross training (eg if doing burpees makes be better at doing burpees but has no effect on my running performance), I'd be better off spending that time running. So just trying to gather some evidence prior to implementing any new training.

This may also raise the point of functionality of exercises. My training is functional for me - ie I go running to improve my running so I race better. A weight-lifter does weight-lifting training to improve his weight-lifting to do better in a weight-lifting competition. But doing, for example, burpees will make me better at doing burpees, but how is this functional? It may make me fitter, improving my health, may make me better at a burpee competition (I don't know if this exists, thinking of old programmes like 'Superstars' and I used to go to circuit training where there would be circuit training competitions every few months) may improve how I look....so if this is what motivates you, there is some element of functionality, but I woder what the drop-out rates are for this type of training? Are they higher than for competitive sports training? I won't miss a training session becuase I have a race in x weeks, whereas I imagine if I was doing something like burpees to 'get fit' I think I wouldn't mind missing a session as I have no deadline, I can just go some other night. Maybe I'm missing something here?

Roper

I think you have something there Racing Flat. But Colm has said in the past that there is a strong group ethic at play so maybe the competition element keeps people interested.

Colm_OReilly

I meant to address specificity in my previous post but forgot. People are absolutely right when they say that you'll adapt to the stresses put on your body. The stresses we put on our body are constantly varied, so we adapt to a constantly varied, unknown and unknowable demand.

As to the crossover, what forms our base movements - deadlifts, squats, presses, cleans, pull ups, press ups, running, rowing. jumping. CrossFit grew about by experimentation, and looking at which movements were found in most, if not all sports/endeavours.

Functional movements (a term, which we freely admit has been somewhat hijacked by the popular 'fitness' industry) contain universal motor recruitment patterns - movements that are found in so many activities both in sport and in day to day living. The simplest and most obvious example is that of a hip extension - the source of power for virtually all movements. You'd be hard pressed to find a sport where powerful hip movement isn't an advantage.

If I pull sets of 10 on deadlifts then my 10rm increases, my 3rm or 1rm probably won't. So am I becoming a better deadlifter?? Depends on what your idea of a good deadlifter is.

So again if we accept that people are looking to get fitter, and to which we've determined that fitness is work capacity across broad modal domains, if you're doing 1RM, 3RM, 5RM, 10RM of any lift, and training them in multiple conditions (combined with running, heavy weight done for speed, "light" weight done for speed, combined with another exercise, etc) then wouldn't it follow you'll increase your broad work capacity over someone who has sacrificed some degree of fitness for specialisation - in your case a 10RM DL or whatever lift.

If training exclusively with CF made an athelte perform better at measurements in their sport, be it 40 yard time, shuttle drills, specific distances or whatever then maybe you could say it works, but unless it's something that's being studied you can't..

There's numerous cases cited of people implementing CF as their conditioning program and seeing augmented performance in their sports (basketball, baseball, ultra endurance running, MMA, soccer, rugby, etc) and improved performance in LEO/Military fitness tests.

But doing, for example, burpees will make me better at doing burpees, but how is this functional?

In and of itself, any movement can become useless in terms of developing fitness. Can you think of an activity where one would repeatedly need to pick themselves off the floor, drop down quickly, and jump? Sure, maybe not in repetitive succession, but this is one workout. Would a basketball player not benefit from building up the endurance in their jumping this develops? An MMA fighter not benefit from the sprawl like action of the burpee, etc?

The 150 burpee workout is one test of ability for which we can record data from. We could work out how far an individual's centre of gravity moves, find their weight, record the time and get the power output. Two days later we test their 1RM on the squat, press and deadlift. We can get the power output of this as well. We can keep going and plot the points on a graph across power/time and see their relative fitness. Then we can compare to another program.

I woder what the drop-out rates are for this type of training?

What are the drop out rates in other sports? In other fitness programs? We'd need to know these to make a decent comparison.

In UCD, we'd about 60 people sign up to BJJ/MMA classes. Approx 30-35 would start classes, by Christmas we'd about 20, but May, maybe 12-15. The boat club in the same year had maybe 100 people show up to circuit training (I'm unsure how many signed up), 60 or so show up at the boat club, by January, there was about 24-30, this was reduced to 16-20 members iirc by exam time. From what I was told, it was a great year for the boat club in terms of novices. How many returned for the following season, I've no idea.

I won't miss a training session becuase I have a race in x weeks, whereas I imagine if I was doing something like burpees to 'get fit' I think I wouldn't mind missing a session as I have no deadline, I can just go some other night.

For some people an impending competition serves as a great motivator for training. Others enjoy training. From my experience, I've noticed people's attendance rate increases after a month or so, because they want to get fitter quicker and want to catch up on their peers (the friendly, competitive nature of every class tends to create this) and asked me what they can do at home to improve on their weaknesses - usually push ups, pull ups, flexibility so far.

Here's some good videos on adaptations that might be useful to watch:
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_AdaptationsPart1.wmv
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_AdaptationsPart2.wmv
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_AdaptationsPart3.wmv

If I've missed anything let me know,
In health,
Colm

Racing Flat

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

The simplest and most obvious example is that of a hip extension - the source of power for virtually all movements. You'd be hard pressed to find a sport where powerful hip movement isn't an advantage.

Good points/explanation there Colm. Just to reinforce one point in relation to specificty of training which I'm sure we agree on...
Certainly if you analyse most sports you might find powerful hip movements being part of the sport. But this doesn't mean you can train hip extension in any old way - you need to determine whether the hip extension needed for that particular part of that particular sport is open or closed chain, concentric/isometric/eccentric, fast or slow, many reps or few, inner/mid/outer range etc etc and based on this work out an appropriate specific hip extension training programme.

You could lie face down on the floor and strap some weights to your leg and do hip extension exercises, but this may not improve your hip extension strength in running or weight-lifting as these involve different types of hip extension with different neuromuscular recruitment patterns to the prione lying hip extension exercise.

It's taken a long time for people to realise this - for years the only type of leg weights you'd see people doing in the gym would be the one for open chain quads (sitting with your knees at 90degrees and pushing the weights out until your knees were extended and then back again) or hamstring curls (lying face down, knees straight and then bending them against resistance) but gradually the penny dropped that these were not the most functional for most sports and covered only a few apsects of strengthening of muscles that can work in a myriad of ways.

The problem with trying to train 'specifically' is that the more specific you get the greater risk of injury e.g. ideally a shot-putter might just practice by throwing the shot all day long, but that would probably lead to overuse injuries, not to mind boredom, so they have to mix it with other exercises advantageous to throwing a shot.

Colm_OReilly

We were talking about the degree of specificity required a while back (see here, page 2)

Here's some interesting quotes from Lon Kilgore

Solid broad- based functional fitness—true general physical preparedness— provides an unmatchable base on which to build sport-specific mastery....

Critics of broad fitness training for specialized athletes might try ... to argue... that it demonstrates a failure to improve a single specific component of fitness as fast as physiologically possible. But I think not. We all know that specificity has its costs. When focusing on just one aspect, broad-spectrum ability will suffer. If we train only for LSD, strength, power, and agility will diminish. If we train only for strength, the endurance and mobility aspects of fitness will decay.

Detractors sometimes seize those exceptions as an argument against CrossFit’s applicability to sport. I think the better
response is simply that CrossFit is specific to broad physical fitness—to development of far-reaching, usable strength, power, endurance, mobility, and health. It is the best way to train for any sport, job, or goal that requires comprehensive fitness and general physical preparedness. It is also perfect for any coach who wants to rapidly establish an athlete’s fitness base before
adding in or moving on to specific sport training.

A feature of say the squat is that it is an irreducable movement. If you break the squat into a quad press and a hamstring curl you will not get the same result if you squatted. A squatter could boast and impressive leg press, a leg presser could not equal their achievements in the squat, or come close for that matter.

I'm somewhat confused. Surely if you're lying face down on the floor your hip is in extension. How can it flex without you lifting off the floor?

Great discussion so far, thanks for asking such interesting, intelligent questions.

Colm

Racing Flat

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

I'm somewhat confused. Surely if you're lying face down on the floor your hip is in extension. How can it flex without you lifting off the floor?

If lying face down (prone) the hip is in much the same position as when you are standing up ie 'neutral' (neither flexion nor extension). If you then lift your leg up in the air (but your trunk stays on the floor) you are extending the hip, concentrically (on the way up anyway) from mid to inner range. Hold it in this position for a while and you are doing an isometric contraction, lower it down again and you are strengthening eccentrically.

Off topic but particularly in relation to tendon injuries, eccentric exercises have been found to be effective for rehabilitation.


"strength, power, endurance, mobility, and health"

Interesting. Makes sense to consider many parameters for fitness rather than just the aerobic/cardiovascular side of things. Maybe add in skill, control, grace and poise. Taking all of these things into account, who is the fittest all round???

I think the Olympic gymnasts take a bit of beating.
I remember watching the 96 Olympics one of the gymnasts doing a floor routine. He was in a press-up position, then lifted one foot in the air followed by the other so that he was on his hands, shoulders at 90degrees and his body straight out behind him in the air. I was blown away as he held this for a few seconds, but he went on from that position, with no break in between to raise both legs in the air into a hand stand position. Scratching our heads for a while trying to work out the muscle analysis involved in that technique...

But then again Flavia from Strictly Come Dancing has amazing control over her body, strength, flexibility, poise, endurance....maybe she gets the nod?

Roper

Colm,

Do you have any independent studies. Not trying to be difficult but I would expect quotes from Crossfitters like Kilgore and Glassman to support Crossfit.

Always askin'!

Racing Flat

Roper wrote: »

Colm,

Do you have any independent studies. Not trying to be difficult but I would expect quotes from Crossfitters like Kilgore and Glassman to support Crossfit.

Always askin'!

Also, are those CrossFit quotes just theories or is there research to back up these theories? Again, not trying to be difficult but it shouldn't be too difficult to do such research, so if it's not there let's go do it.

Colm_OReilly

If lying face down (prone) the hip is in much the same position as when you are standing up ie 'neutral' (neither flexion nor extension). If you then lift your leg up in the air (but your trunk stays on the floor) you are extending the hip, concentrically (on the way up anyway) from mid to inner range. Hold it in this position for a while and you are doing an isometric contraction, lower it down again and you are strengthening eccentrically.

You forced me to get up and try this out to think about it, and for that, I mightn't forgive you

If you stand upright your hips are in extension. If you push your crotch forward you're engaging in lumbar extension.

I can see what you mean about raising your legs but the extent is so slight that I can't see any applicable reason for doing this. After all, you're engaging in lumbar extension to achieve this as well.

Also, if you swing your leg back while standing, you can't help but extend your lumbar spine as well (now, maybe this is just me and I lack the muscular control to flex my sping and extend a single hip joint past 180 degrees). Furthermore, I can't think of a realistic application of what I'll call hyper extension of a single hip joint. Can you?

Interesting. Makes sense to consider many parameters for fitness rather than just the aerobic/cardiovascular side of things. Maybe add in skill, control, grace and poise. Taking all of these things into account, who is the fittest all round???

These guys

Joking aside, a program that aims to build technical adaptations such as agility, coordination, balance and accuracy in addition to organic adaptations (strength, flexibility, stamina, endurance) - and by design develop power & speed - will produce the greatest overall benefit than a program which prioritises one component at the expense of the others.

Our core movements, squats, deadlifts, presses, cleans, etc, require technical proficiency to achieve maximum gains. Whereas machines do not require technique to use, cannot develop a productive application of force, or an adaptation outside that machine.

Gymnasts have exception control of their body, powerlifters are stronger than bodybuilder, weightlifters are more powerful than any other athlete, and endurance athletes tend to be woefully lacking in overall capacity.

But then again Flavia from Strictly Come Dancing has amazing control over her body, strength, flexibility, poise, endurance....maybe she gets the nod?

I'm sorry, I don't watch that program so I can't comment

Do you have any independent studies.

To make a comparison, do we have independent studies showing our training methods are better than those of TMAs? OR have we experimented ourselves with training methods, and taken what has produced results and continued with them.

Tabata intervals would be one scientific example that's adopted by CF and seems to support CF's methodologies

Overall, as a movement we're into experimentation ourselves, and playing with the protocol (which is done constantly) to see what produces the results in our athletes in the gyms.

I'm sure I've missed some points but that's all my brain can explain right now!
Colm

Racing Flat

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

If you stand upright your hips are in extension.



.

Technically speaking, the hips may be in 'extension' in a standing position, and probably a little moreso in prone due to the pelvis, but the position of the hip in a standing position would be generally referred to as a neutral position, or more correctly 'anatomical' position. Anatomically, we talk about planes of movement and one of the planes of movement that the hip moves in is the sagittal plane. The full range of hip movement in the saggital plane would be from say your knee touching your chest (it can't go any further due to soft tissue approximation) which would be reffered to as end of range of hip flexion, to the furthest point that you can swing your leg out behind you (minus compensations from the lumbar spine/pelvis) known as end of range of extension. So when we refer to flexion we are talking about the range from the neutral/anatomical or standing position to end of range flexion and when we talk about extension we mean from the neutral/anatomical standing position to end of range extension - granted some people may call this hyperextension.

Apologies I don't know how to mulit-quote so hopefully you'll follow the below

Quote If you push your crotch forward you're engaging in lumbar extension.Quote

Maybe, and also hip extension.

Quote I can see what you mean about raising your legs but the extent is so slight that I can't see any applicable reason for doing this. After all, you're engaging in lumbar extension to achieve this as well. Quote

Total range of extension is approximately 20degrees, hence your foot shouldn't raise too far off the ground before your lumbar spine would also start to extend. So most people who do this as an exercsie (aerobics class? bums and tums class?) to improve their 'butt' probably go too far into range (more is not always better) and so work their back extensors predominantly. you will also commonly have people with movement dysfunction whereby instead of extending their hip (e.g. in walking) they extend their more dominant lumbar spine and so they get gluteal disuse atrophy/weakness and 'overuse' injuries of the spine with resultant back pain. In such a case treatment for low back pain should involve re-educating the faulty movment pattern rather than directly targetting treatment at the lumbar spine...

Quote Also, if you swing your leg back while standing, you can't help but extend your lumbar spine as well (now, maybe this is just me and I lack the muscular control to flex my sping and extend a single hip joint past 180 degrees). Quote

see above

Quote Furthermore, I can't think of a realistic application of what I'll call hyper extension of a single hip joint. Can you? Quote

Well, every time you take a step when walking, one leg goes forward and the other goes backward (my extension, your hyperextension). You should have about 10degrees of extenion past the anatomical for normal walking, so it's a very important oft-repeated movement, so is often implicated in pain disorders as above. Not that I'd advocate doing prone lying extension exercises in this case of course, being a proponent of specificity of training - I was using this exercise earlier as an example of a hip extension exercise that may NOT be very specific/appropriate

Racing Flat

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Tabata intervals

Excellent - just what I was looking for, Thanks.