Should Ahern Resign?

pfkf1

Just wondering whether people think Ahern should resign [edit - psi]
Do you believe he should resign due to the fact that he has committed all of these offences? or do you think that we as a population should stand by and watch low standards in high office continue?

Do you think that the Greens and PDs should pull out of government if Ahern refuses to resign due to him demeaning politics?

Liam Byrne

Yes,
Yes,
& Yes

Fact is, though, it ain't gonna happen....even his other mate who's due in front of the tribunal is "pulling a Charlie" and is "too sick" to appear......it'd be laughable if it weren't for the fact that OUR taxes are paying for this....both the wages of these chancers and the costs of the tribunals that are investigating them!

duggie-89

YES
YES
YES

but lets face it the publi have accepted FF corruption for so long why would they change their minds now. they had a chance to get him out but were 2 scared about losing their new fancy cars because ahren but the feear of god into people about "if we lose the elction the economy will collapse"


get him out the sooner the better.

and i cant see the Greens go especially if they sold their soul to get power in the first place.

Jack Sheehan

Yes. But will he? Not a hope in hell.

damo

Yes. ****ing crook. No doubt what we're seeing is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to his corruption over the years.

AckwelFoley

[edit - psi]?

Influenced by the meadia much? :rolleyes:

Tommy T

Wind your necks back in lads. Bertie's been the most successful Taoiseach in the history of the State. Since becomming leader he's been there when Ireland for once and for all buried the gun for good, the Celtic Tiger has roared louder than any other EU economy and my own personal circumstances have improvced beyond belief thanks to his Governments forsight and liberal(economically) policies.

If he's received a few bob along the way from mates then fair dues. It's not like he was counterfeitting notes in Gardiner Street...;)

AckwelFoley

Tommy, its unpopular to say such a thing.

Shame on you.

Sam Kade

Tommy T wrote: »

Wind your necks back in lads. Bertie's been the most successful Taoiseach in the history of the State. Since becomming leader he's been there when Ireland for once and for all buried the gun for good, the Celtic Tiger has roared louder than any other EU economy and my own personal circumstances have improvced beyond belief thanks to his Governments forsight and liberal(economically) policies.

If he's received a few bob along the way from mates then fair dues. It's not like he was counterfeitting notes in Gardiner Street...;)

And Bertie made all these good things happen. I wouldn't agree with you it was just that he was in the right place at the right time.

Tommy T

snyper wrote: »

Tommy, its unpopular to say such a thing.

Shame on you.

I know. I feel so tainted by Bertie's gross corruption. How will I ever sleep tonight..:(

Lucky I have a kingsize bed that I could afford thanks to the job I have that was generated by the Celtic Tiger which was cared for and nourished, partly, by Bertie Ahern lead Governments over the last decade...;)

AckwelFoley

Sam Kade wrote: »

And Bertie made all these good things happen. I wouldn't agree with you it was just that he was in the right place at the right time.

Yes of course. If we had a left wing rather than our "right of centre" government in the years preceeeding the boom, all the infrastructure, skills and oppertunities to create this boom would have been even greater.

No. Not even close.

The people responsible for creating the jobs would have stayed in or went to england where their skills and effort would be rewarded and hence benefit that economy

"Right place right time" :rolleyes: Where do you think success comes from? Dont say "people" like Gerry Adams.. China have got loads of people, but cant feed half them.

Its careful managment of an economy that gives rise to oppertunities and wealth that makes a country great.

eddiehobbs

Tommy T wrote: »

Wind your necks back in lads. Bertie's been the most successful Taoiseach in the history of the State. Since becomming leader he's been there when Ireland for once and for all buried the gun for good, the Celtic Tiger has roared louder than any other EU economy and my own personal circumstances have improvced beyond belief thanks to his Governments forsight and liberal(economically) policies.

If he's received a few bob along the way from mates then fair dues. It's not like he was counterfeitting notes in Gardiner Street...;)

regardless of whether he has been successfull or not, he's corrupt and therefore unsuitable to be taoiseach

AckwelFoley

regardless of whether he has been successfull or not, he's corrupt and therefore unsuitable to be taoiseach

Hes not been PROVEN corrupt ...yet


Secondly, all of these elected politicans have had their hands in the pie at some stage.

guinnessdrinker

snyper wrote: »

Hes not been PROVEN corrupt ...yet


Secondly, all of these elected politicans have had their hands in the pie at some stage.

Just because it looks like Ahern is corrupt doesn't mean "all these elected politicans" are corrupt. Have you proof that they are all corrupt?

AckwelFoley

Its the same common assumption that ppl make that Ahern is corrupt.

I dont think he has done anything at the time that anyother politician wouldnt.

LostinBlanch

Guinessdrinker,

don't worry about it, it's typical FF tactics make out that everyone else is as corrupt as they have been proved to be in the past.

It looks to me like the Mount St tag team is working late tonight.

AckwelFoley

You fail at sarcasm.

Tommy T

eddiehobbs wrote: »

regardless of whether he has been successfull or not, he's corrupt and therefore unsuitable to be taoiseach

Thats like saying Jesus was wrong to question his father on the cross while forgetting all the good he did.

Yes I am putting Bertie in a league with Jesus Christ...;)

As Clark Gable said to Vivien Leigh Frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

It's thanks to Bertie ahern lead Governments I have a comfortable life in the country of my birth. For that I'll be forever grateful.

By the way your view or mine of his suitability is irrelevent as the reality of the situation tells us that the People voted him into Office for a third straight term.

You gotta love democracy...

eddiehobbs

snyper wrote: »

Its the same common assumption that ppl make that Ahern is corrupt.

I dont think he has done anything at the time that anyother politician wouldnt.

And that makes it right??

Where are all these other corrupt politicians?

Do you steal from your employer??

miju

Tommy T wrote: »

Wind your necks back in lads. Bertie's been the most successful Taoiseach in the history of the State. Since becomming leader he's been there when Ireland for once and for all buried the gun for good, the Celtic Tiger has roared louder than any other EU economy and my own personal circumstances have improvced beyond belief thanks to his Governments forsight and liberal(economically) policies.

thanks to his "foresight" he built a roaring economy that binged on cheap credit and profiterring from selling houses to each other. of course that will and is all changing right now

Tommy T wrote: »

If he's received a few bob along the way from mates then fair dues. It's not like he was counterfeitting notes in Gardiner Street...;)

if he's recieved a few bob that quite simply makes hom corrupt and not fit to be in office. i'm actually glad FF won the last general election as it will show up their complete economic mismanagement of this country. if FG / Lab had of got in they would have shouldered the blame and we'd be faced with another million years of FF government

AckwelFoley

I laugh whole heartidly at all this talk of a mis managed economy.

We have a great economy.
Where have you been for the last 30 years? Do you remember the 70's and 80's?

Tommy T

miju wrote: »

Tommy T wrote: »

Wind your necks back in lads. Bertie's been the most successful Taoiseach in the history of the State. Since becomming leader he's been there when Ireland for once and for all buried the gun for good, the Celtic Tiger has roared louder than any other EU economy and my own personal circumstances have improvced beyond belief thanks to his Governments forsight and liberal(economically) policies.

thanks to his "foresight" he built a roaring economy that binged on cheap credit and profiterring from selling houses to each other. of course that will and is all changing right now

It's called the Free Market... Long may it live...

Armin_Tamzarian

How come it seems to be acceptable for Bertie Ahern to have received monies from "close personal friends" whilst others have been strung up for the same thing?
Calling the payments a "dig out" is no excuse.
Does the fact that Bertie needed the money as a result of his divorce make it all the more palatable?
There's were plenty of men going through separatations at the same time as him and they were earning much less money and they ended up losing their house and pretty much everything else.
But they didn't have access to a dig out fund, they just had to struggle on and keep going as people do.

No matter what way you look at it he only got those monies because of his position.

I think the final straw for me was when the high ranking NCB[?] official contradicted most of what Ahern had said.
This wasn't the ramblings of a drunken Eamon Dunphy.
What would be the motivation for this bank official to lie?

Tommy T

There's no law against receiving money from friends, acquaintances or even sworn enemies.

Some media types who have nowt better to do with their time and wallow in their misery of living in a Fianna Fail boom economy can wish it to be otherwise all they like but Comrades O'Toole and Connolly will just have to put up with it.

Thankfully the days of Show trials went out with uncle Joe Stalin...

Armin_Tamzarian

There's no law against receiving money but what if someone gives you a donation for you're party and you pocket it.
Isn't this what the statements of the NCB[?] official are implying?
Surely that's theft and fraud?

I think the problem is that it's an abuse of power.
Also it will biase the receiver in the favour of the giver.
If someone gives you €40,000 then surely you'll be alot more likely to help
them out in the future, whatever that help might be.

What is the actual law in relation ot receiving large cash gifts from people?
Do you have to pay tax on this?

For a long time Ahern appeared to be one of the few FF politicians who's name hadn't been sullied by cash donations / bribes received in the past.
Now that's all changed.

Tommy T

This might sound glib but Bertie's relationship with Revenue doen't cause me a second thought. whether he's fully compliant or not. I judge him on his achievement since coming into Office and he's played a blinder.

I personally owe him a huge debt of gratitude allowing the economic circumstances prosper whereby enabled me to stay in Ireland and build a relatively comfprtable lifestyle.

A privilege not afforded to the generation that went before me...

Armin_Tamzarian

Tommy T wrote: »

This might sound glib but Bertie's relationship with Revenue doen't cause me a second thought. whether he's fully compliant or not. I judge him on his achievement since coming into Office and he's played a blinder.

I personally owe him a huge debt of gratitude allowing the economic circumstances prosper whereby enabled me to stay in Ireland and build a relatively comfprtable lifestyle.

A privilege not afforded to the generation that went before me...

This is abit OT but...
In relation to your comment.
I don't know much about the machinations of politics, etc.
However there is something that I've often wondered.
In your post you credit Bertir Ahern and FF with bringing about the Celtic Tiger and providing so much prosperity.
What I wonder is how much credit is actually due to the politicians?
Is the success not really down to the people behind the scenes, Civil Servants, Advisiors, Economists, etc.
As I said, I don't know much about politics but I have an image in my head of Civil Servants, etc doing all the work and then making their cases to relevant Ministers for approval, funding, etc.

miju

Tommy T wrote: »

It's called the Free Market... Long may it live...

ah I see so in other words the free market is responsible for the roaring economy not Bertie? thanks for agreeing :D:D

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

As I said, I don't know much about politics but I have an image in my head of Civil Servants, etc doing all the work and then making their cases to relevant Ministers for approval, funding, etc.

agreed, there is a permanent and a temporary government. the civil service are the permanent government with the politicians been considered temoprary

damo

Right so without old bertie we'd still be living in cowsheds and eating potatoes right? :eek:

Tommy T wrote: »

There's no law against receiving money from friends, acquaintances or even sworn enemies.

Is that you bertie??

You'd have to be pretty gullible to believe that poor old bertie was given gifts from his property developing pals out of the kindness of their hearts.

Maybe they gave it to him for single handedly making all us broke paddies paper millionaires?

Tommy T

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

This is abit OT but...
In relation to your comment.
I don't know much about the machinations of politics, etc.
However there is something that I've often wondered.
In your post you credit Bertir Ahern and FF with bringing about the Celtic Tiger and providing so much prosperity.
What I wonder is how much credit is actually due to the politicians?
Is the success not really down to the people behind the scenes, Civil Servants, Advisiors, Economists, etc.
As I said, I don't know much about politics but I have an image in my head of Civil Servants, etc doing all the work and then making their cases to relevant Ministers for approval, funding, etc.

You are spot on in your observations about Civil Servants. They do a sterling job behind the scenes. However its the politicians whom we elect and its their heads on the chopping block if things go up the spout.

There's no doubt the Budgets of Charlie McCreevy enhanced and gave sustinance to the already existing Celtic Cub while outside factors also played their part.

Fact is Bertie was at the healm and therefore he gets the Kudos deservedly...

Tommy T

damo wrote: »

Right so without old bertie we'd still be living in cowsheds and eating potatoes right? :eek:

Wrong. We'd be living in london, New York and Sydney building a life for ourselves that would be impossible to achieve in the land of our birth. You're clearly too young to remember the devestating after Christmas scenes in Dublin Airport when fathers and children, husbands and wives had to be seperated due to our basketcase economy.

Thankfully those days are history...

is_that_so

Tommy T wrote: »

Wrong. We'd be living in london, New York and Sydney building a life for ourselves that would be impossible to achieve in the land of our birth. You're clearly too young to remember the devestating after Christmas scenes in Dublin Airport when fathers and children, husbands and wives had to be seperated due to our basketcase economy.

Thankfully those days are history...

Ochon agus ochon o. Why do people insist on using the "you weren't there" guff? Ease off there man. It wasn't that bad. It wasn't the Famine all over again. Devastating statistically for Ireland, yes, but if you were part of it there was a certain buzz to not being here. 1980s Ireland was not a terribly nice place to be anyway.

As to the question well, we get the government we deserve. As some people have observed, the vast majority just don't care. If Bertie had been in a private company he would have had his P45 long ago, not because he is necessarily corrupt , but simply because his judgement is seriously impaired and he fails to understand what it is to be a CEO.

Tommy T

is_that_so wrote: »

Ochon agus ochon o. Why do people insist on using the "you weren't there" guff? Ease off there man. It wasn't that bad. It wasn't the Famine all over again. Devastating statistically for Ireland, yes, but if you were part of it there was a certain buzz to not being here. 1980s Ireland was not a terribly nice place to be anyway.

As to the question well, we get the government we deserve. As some people have observed, the vast majority just don't care. If Bertie had been in a private company he would have had his P45 long ago, not because he is necessarily corrupt , but simply because his judgement is seriously impaired and he fails to understand what it is to be a CEO.

Oh it was 'that' bad mate. Believe me. My own family was seperated for economic reasons. My father and mother left Ireland in the early 1960's leaving my three older siblings in the care of our maternal grandmother. they saw our parents two times a year, once in the summer and once at Christmas.

This went on until I came along in 1972. My mother made the decision to rare me back in ireland but my father couldn't afford to leave his job in London as there was little or no prospects of a similar job in Ireland. So he stayed on alone for a further 11 years until he was able to take early retirement.

My family's story was repeated by tens of thousands up and down the country and continued on well into the late 80's.

That trauma wasn't imagined and please don't be flippant about real pain and sufering caused by our ecnomicnightmare...

is_that_so

Tommy T wrote: »

Oh it was 'that' bad mate. Believe me. My own family was seperated for economic reasons. My father and mother left Ireland in the early 1960's leaving my three older siblings in the care of our maternal grandmother. they saw our parents two times a year, once in the summer and once at Christmas.

This went on until I came along in 1972. My mother made the decision to rare me back in ireland but my father couldn't afford to leave his job in London as there was little or no prospects of a similar job in Ireland. So he stayed on alone for a further 11 years until he was able to take early retirement.

My family's story was repeated by tens of thousands up and down the country and continued on well into the late 80's.

That trauma wasn't imagined and please don't be flippant about real pain and suffering caused by our ecnomicnightmare...

I am not being flippant and am not making light of your or any other personal circumstances.
I do think that what happened in the 50s and 60s was a tragedy , especially given that many people forced to leave, would have limited opportunities and probably would have had far lower levels of education.
I am less inclined to accept that the 80s, bad enough as it was, compares with that period. Given the ease of travel, the difference in education levels and more importantly opportunities, I think that experience added far more benefit than to those of that earlier generation.

markpb

People like Tommy T scare me because there are so many of them who will continue to vote and support FF. Sure, things are going well for most people right now so they're happy. No thought for the people who can't get to work without a three hour commute because FF failed to build any decent transport infrastructure, the people who lie on hospital trollys because they didn't introduce a decent health system, the people who have to drive even further on their commute because there school system is a mess, the companies who talk of leaving Ireland because our cost of living is so high and our telecoms system is so poor.

The list goes on but the truth is we are a cash-rich nation but we are a poor country and in years to come people will look back and wonder how we built so little when we had so much money. Our Celtic Tiger might have roared louder than anyone else but we'll be left with its scars long after everyone has forgotten about us. The Germans will be able to go into a hospital and be seen in a reasonable timeframe and the French will be commuting to work using the TGV, the motorway and the metro long after we're still watching people commute from Cavan to Dublin because they can't sell their houses.

Tommy T

I'm all for leaving Ireland and experienceing different cultures as long as its voluntary and not forced upon anyone for economic reasons. In the mid-80's unemployment was running at 20%, income tax rates were through the roof and the World Bank was ready to forclose on Ireland Inc.

Things were that bad...

Tommy T

markpb wrote: »

People like Tommy T scare me because there are so many of them who will continue to vote and support FF. Sure, things are going well for most people right now so they're happy. No thought for the people who can't get to work without a three hour commute because FF failed to build any decent transport infrastructure, the people who lie on hospital trollys because they didn't introduce a decent health system, the people who have to drive even further on their commute because there school system is a mess, the companies who talk of leaving Ireland because our cost of living is so high and our telecoms system is so poor.

The list goes on but the truth is we are a cash-rich nation but we are a poor country and in years to come people will look back and wonder how we built so little when we had so much money. Our Celtic Tiger might have roared louder than anyone else but we'll be left with its scars long after everyone has forgotten about us. The Germans will be able to go into a hospital and be seen in a reasonable timeframe and the French will be commuting to work using the TGV, the motorway and the metro long after we're still watching people commute from Cavan to Dublin because they can't sell their houses.

If I had an attitude like that I'd be running for nthe nearest rifle to put me out of my misery...:D

The items you mention are to a great extent related to our own success. 20 years ago if you told someone we'd be the best performing economy in Europe, we'd have difficulties with Cavan people making their way to work from HOME(not having to emigrate automatically after leaving school) and that nigh on 20 billion quid was being pumped into the health system from Tax returns(not irresponsible borrowing a la the FG/Lab disaster) you'd be laughed at...

The health system is unrecognisable from a decade ago, is far better resourced and has great difficulties matching the new standards expected from the public. The HSE has serious issues, no doubt about that. However give me our health system today over 1988 anyday of the week...

is_that_so

Again one of the reasons why I question the 1980s "disaster". I was part of it. I was made redundant and I headed off on a "great adventure". It was an opportunity, in the same that it was an opportunity for the myriads of Irish I met on my travels in subsequent years. What made it a "disaster" , even the Torygraph in England covered it, was the sheer numbers. Many people who went away were able to build new lives, get on in ways they might not have done at home. It was also the time of the first cheap flights, Virgin and the like, and the nightmare of the Bus from London to Hollyhead . Incidentally the high PAYE rates had been there for a long time and did not just appear in the 1980s.

Liam Byrne

Tommy T wrote: »

You are spot on in your observations about Civil Servants. They do a sterling job behind the scenes. However its the politicians whom we elect and its their heads on the chopping block if things go up the spout.

When did you last see a politician's head on a chopping block ?

Bertie - [edit]: stays in office
Charlie - [edit] : stays in office and dies before he's fully investigated and charged
Dempsey - screws up broadband, etc : stays in office
Idiot who made us pay for e-voting machines : stays in office
O'Dea & all the other FFailures - shafted Shannon to stay in their cushy jobs

Need I go on ?

[edit -erm we don't know yet -Psi] - we do know the first 4 items are true, though, and that's plenty reason to chuck him out.

Tommy T

is_that_so wrote: »

Again one of the reasons why I question the 1980s "disaster". I was part of it. I was made redundant and I headed off on a "great adventure". It was an opportunity, in the same that it was an opportunity for the myriads of Irish I met on my travels in subsequent years. What made it a "disaster" , even the Torygraph in England covered it, was the sheer numbers. Many people who went away were able to build new lives, get on in ways they might not have done at home. It was also the time of the first cheap flights, Virgin and the like, and the nightmare of the Bus from London to Hollyhead . Incidentally the PAYE rates had been there for a long time and did not just appear in the 1980s.

For sinlge people travel is great and should be encouraged. But as in your own case you were made redundant therefore the decision to emigrate was in a way forced on you.

The PAYE rates were as high as ever during the 1980's and the great scandal was the tax take was not able to fund Current Account spending hence the IMF/World Bank were ready to takeover. dark days indeed...

Tommy T

Liam Byrne wrote: »

When did you last see a politician's head on a chopping block ?

Bertie - [edit]: stays in office
Charlie - [edit]: stays in office and dies before he's fully investigated and charged
Dempsey - screws up broadband, etc : stays in office
Idiot who made us pay for e-voting machines : stays in office
O'Dea & all the other FFailures - shafted Shannon to stay in their cushy jobs

Need I go on ?

[edit] - we do know the first 4 items are true, though, and that's plenty reason to chuck him out.

A politician puts his head on the line everytime he/she faces the voters in an election. Those in the Civil Service have safe/secure jobs for life...

markpb

Tommy T wrote: »

The items you mention are to a great extent related to our own success.

Glad you agree, FF managed our success badly and could have done a much better job. Most people will agree we've been doing well for at least ten years but at no time during those ten years, did they ever try to use the money wisely. There was no plan for investment in infrastructure, no overview of where things were going, just ad-hoc, election promises that weren't often carried out.

You might call me a pessimist but if the economy goes south and we haven't invested in services, people will have to emigrate yet again, something which could easily have been avoided.

Tommy T

markpb wrote: »

Glad you agree, FF managed our success badly and could have done a much better job. Most people will agree we've been doing well for at least ten years but at no time during those ten years, did they ever try to use the money wisely. There was no plan for investment in infrastructure, no overview of where things were going, just ad-hoc, election promises that weren't often carried out.

You might call me a pessimist but if the economy goes south and we haven't invested in services, people will have to emigrate yet again, something which could easily have been avoided.

If the economy goes south then no amount of railwaylines will prevent it mate.

There has been a huge amount of Capital investment all round the country in roads, hospitals and general services. To suggest otherwise is just not being true to reality...

AckwelFoley

snip.. new thread started


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=54880273#post54880273


..

Tommy T

1. What party do you believe would be a more successful government? None

2. Are you over 18 and Registered to vote? Yes

3. Did you vote in the last general election? Yes

Bduffman

Tommy T wrote: »

As Clark Gable said to Vivien Leigh Frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

And there in a nutshell lies the problem with Irish politics. People are willing to put up with corruption as long as they get what they want. Just as long as FF satisfy 30 odd per cent of the population thats enough for them to retain power & dupe fools from various other parties by dangling power in front of them. Nothing ever justifies corruption - the day people believe that the country cannot be run properly without being on the make is a sad day indeed. Don't forget, most of this corruption was going on at times when a great number of us were on the dole or in crap jobs while we looked on in disbelief at the arrogance of these crooks. Don't forget also that FF were in power for the vast majority of the history of this state and the country has been mismanaged for the majority of that time. What has happened in recent times has little to do with them - indeed they have squandered what has been built up in that time that is starting to come back to haunt us now. Until we see what another party or coalition can do after 10 - 15 years in power you can't say FF are any better than anyone else. Its people like you who vote for the same party again & again no matter what that turns people against politics in this country - I'll bet your parents (& probably their parents) voted for them as well eh? Well if thats what makes you vote for corrupt politicians thats just sad.

is_that_so

snyper wrote: »

Simple questions i propose to everyone here.

1. What party do you believe would be a more successful government?

2. Are you over 18 and Registered to vote?

3. Did you vote in the last general election?

Mightn't this be better in a separate thread?

AckwelFoley

is_that_so wrote: »

Mightn't this be better in a separate thread?

Yes, i will delete that post and start a new thread

El Stuntman

Tommy T wrote: »

There has been a huge amount of Capital investment all round the country in roads, hospitals and general services. To suggest otherwise is just not being true to reality...

why aren't we seeing the results of this investment then?

why are all of these projects coming in years late and way over budget?

Tommy T

Bduffman wrote: »

And there in a nutshell lies the problem with Irish politics. People are willing to put up with corruption as long as they get what they want. Just as long as FF satisfy 30 odd per cent of the population thats enough for them to retain power & dupe fools from various other parties by dangling power in front of them. Nothing ever justifies corruption - the day people believe that the country cannot be run properly without being on the make is a sad day indeed. Don't forget, most of this corruption was going on at times when a great number of us were on the dole or in crap jobs while we looked on in disbelief at the arrogance of these crooks. Don't forget also that FF were in power for the vast majority of the history of this state and the country has been mismanaged for the majority of that time. What has happened in recent times has little to do with them - indeed they have squandered what has been built up in that time that is starting to come back to haunt us now. Until we see what another party or coalition can do after 10 - 15 years in power you can't say FF are any better than anyone else. Its people like you who vote for the same party again & again no matter what that turns people against politics in this country - I'll bet your parents (& probably their parents) voted for them as well eh? Well if thats what makes you vote for corrupt politicians thats just sad.

Thats Democracy for you. the People vote for thier preferred candidates. Tyranny of the majority...;)

Tommy T

El Stuntman wrote: »

why aren't we seeing the results of this investment then?

why are all of these projects coming in years late and way over budget?

So you see no imporvement in the road systems from 15 years ago? You've missed the new hospital building programmes?

I think you'll also find the majority of projects come in on time and within budget with the exceptions highlighted in the media...