Schools Rugby Munster

Tim Robbins

Hi,
Is Munster Schools Rugby of a lower standard than Leinster?
Basically if there are only 3 teams that are competitive in Limerick and I think 2 in Cork and one in Tipp, Would this mean there isn't that many games being played there throughout the season?

In Leinster there are about 15 - 20 schools playing at a reasonable standard and plenty of games every Saturday before the Cups start. There's also a few handy youth teams (I appreciate this is the case in Munster so this point cancels out).

What you reckon?
If this is the case, you have to hand it to the Munster set up who seem to be able to catch up at senior level and dominate the AIL.

Comments welcomed...

daveirl

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toomevara

daveirl wrote: »

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Absolutely correct, the reason I took to playing rugby is precisely because it had nothing to do with my totally GAA dominated school. Not so much schools based in Munster at all......

I can remember our rugby coach at under age level rounding us up off the street the night before a game, giving us a quick training session and making us promise under pain of death to be at the bus stop the following morn. From talking to other lads in the area twas pretty much the same....

RuggieBear

are the clubs allowed use schools players in their under-age teams in Munster?

daveirl

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damnyanks

We played 2 of the teams from cork and the team from tipp back in the day. Won all those games.

But tbh Leinster is better then Munster just cause you know...

komodosp

I believe St Nessans play Rugby too... least they did when I were a lad... (many years ago)

Not sure if they are any good though

EDIT: Now that I think about it, when I went there I believe there was about one teacher who was mad into Rugby and he was probably the coach and I wouldn't be surprised if he was the only one keeping it alive there. However he then moved to St. Munchins, so I don't know if they still have a team now.

dc69

damnyanks wrote: »

We played 2 of the teams from cork and the team from tipp back in the day. Won all those games.

But tbh Leinster is better then Munster just cause you know...

back in the day is a key word,i would say the munster schools teams are pretty good,although i dont know how serious they take it?comapared to their leinster counterparts,where it is the be all and end all.

when i was 11 we were getting coached by new zealanders and south africans who had played for real deal teams over there,that was 9 years ago,so it was quite serious from an early age

daveirl

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Sabre0001

dc69 wrote: »

i would say the munster schools teams are pretty good,although i dont know how serious they take it?comapared to their leinster counterparts,where it is the be all and end all.

It's taken quite seriously in the schools that dave pointed out...From a Limerick perspective, it is a focus point really of those schools. Not sure if the resources are there to import coaches, etc but not taken any less seriously as a result...

dc69

Sabre0001 wrote: »

It's taken quite seriously in the schools that dave pointed out...From a Limerick perspective, it is a focus point really of those schools. Not sure if the resources are there to import coaches, etc but not taken any less seriously as a result...

this is why an all ireland schools final would be brilliant,where the top 4 compete,wonder would it ever be considered

thebaz

i think most schools play "freindlies" against , the other top schools in other provinces -- i certainly don't remember anything "freindly" or easy about my few trips to Limerck -- the reverse in fact :mad:

daveirl

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damnyanks

daveirl wrote: »

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The gick

damnyanks

thebaz wrote: »

i think most schools play "freindlies" against , the other top schools in other provinces -- i certainly don't remember anything "freindly" or easy about my few trips to Limerck -- the reverse in fact :mad:

Never saw any of those as friendlies. Played on pretty much all the different variety of teams. Can't really remember any of the games being taken too light hearted. If you were getting hammered you generally started fights or played dirty

daveirl

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thebaz

daveirl wrote: »

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terenure

welish

daveirl wrote: »

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Where I'm from we call them challenge games. Lads tend to be loose with the boot in the old challenge games

Tim Robbins

daveirl wrote: »

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Only three of them are in Limerick (not Munster), which was my point.
It basically means that Rockwell have to travel outside their own county to get a decent game. The Cork teams have to do the same or else play the same team again and again. This seems a bit of hassel to have to travel that far for a competitive game. Whereas in Dublin, you have a large number of good schools all near each other. I am just would the larger numbers just mean dublin is going to better. Also hats off to Munster for kicking *ss at club level.

It astounds me that Blackrock can destroy most schools but not have much of a club side. I know a lot of their players play for the colleges and other clubs but they should still be better than they are at club level.

Also I don't buy the Limerick is the home of Irish Rugby. 3 schools play it competively and the from I hear the youths are no where near the level of schools.

daveirl

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Tim Robbins

daveirl wrote: »

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I would have thought, the inconvenience of travel would have made games harder to organise etc. and hence less of them.
I agree with you about player numbers and that's the basis of my point that because there are more playing in dublin, the standard is likely to be higher.

I personally think Munster Rugby from top to bottom is punching way above it's weight.

Why did you start the thread off talking about Leinster schools being a higher standard and change it to Dublin later on?

Most of the Rugby schools are in Dublin.

daveirl

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Amazotheamazing

People from Leinster get really hung up on Schools rugby for some reason. In Munster the clubs, not the schools, are the big deal. In my day, it was common enough for players to play for their clubs ahead of their school.

Teams like Shannon and Bohemians have massive underage programmes from under 6 upwards, I think at one point Shannon had something 600 children under 10 training one Saturday morning.

Munster rugby is based on the clubs, and hopefully it'll stay that way.

RuggieBear

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

People from Leinster get really hung up on Schools rugby for some reason. In Munster the clubs, not the schools, are the big deal. In my day, it was common enough for players to play for their clubs ahead of their school.

Teams like Shannon and Bohemians have massive underage programmes from under 6 upwards, I think at one point Shannon had something 600 children under 10 training one Saturday morning.

Munster rugby is based on the clubs, and hopefully it'll stay that way.

Wish it was the same in leinster but the schools have all the power. Schools players aren't allowed play for their club sides so no real bond/affinity develops there imo

Tim Robbins

daveirl wrote: »

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Agreed.

Saw something in the paper recently where only 1 Leinster player hadn't gone to a rugby school, in Munster the numbers would be far larger.

Hayse, Quinlan who else in Munster didn't go to Rugby school?
In Leinster it's Shane Horgan, but if you look at the academy there's a quite a few who didn't go to Rugby schools right now.

Tim Robbins

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Munster rugby is based on the clubs, and hopefully it'll stay that way.

Disagree.

I was talking to lads from a Rugby school in Limerick recently who told me schools was way bigger and higher standard than clubs. These lads played both and said schools was far higher standard.

Also it would appear the majority of Munster players come from the Rugby schools.

Tim Robbins

RuggieBear wrote: »

Wish it was the same in leinster but the schools have all the power. Schools players aren't allowed play for their club sides so no real bond/affinity develops there imo

That used to be the case. You are now allowed play for your club as long as you are not on the JCT / SCT panel.
Also there's a huge amount of schools playing Rugby at development level in Leinster, over 60 now. The clubs playing youths are also coming on in standard. Barnhall just beat Terenure SCT when two of Barnhall's best players were missing.

I was at the under 18 youths final last year and the standard was also quite good.

I think Munster are on a high right now, but that could change in 5 years time. Ulster were the dominate province for a long while and look at them now. Anything can change, anything.

daveirl

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damnyanks

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That used to be the case. You are now allowed play for your club as long as you are not on the JCT / SCT panel.
Also there's a huge amount of schools playing Rugby at development level in Leinster, over 60 now. The clubs playing youths are also coming on in standard. Barnhall just beat Terenure SCT when two of Barnhall's best players were missing.

I was at the under 18 youths final last year and the standard was also quite good.

I think Munster are on a high right now, but that could change in 5 years time. Ulster were the dominate province for a long while and look at them now. Anything can change, anything.

Barnhall play in the u20's league. the club itself is pretty decent. They have there years.

The real difference I guess would be the depth of players. The rugby schools will have 4 - 7 teams playing in the same age range as the likes of Barnhall(No idea how many teams they have)

Amazotheamazing

Underage squads in clubs have grown massively in Munster since the HEC began, whereas traditionally Munster had less players than Ulster and Leinster, in 10 years time I think we're due to have more overall players. New clubs are opening in non-rugby heartlands like Kerry and Clare, and some Tipp teams (Nenagh in particular) are pushing to break into the higher levels of the AIL.

I take your point about the standard of schools rugby, it is higher, but when the kids leave school are they going back to the clubs that first taught them the game. This is a big problem in Leinster, where there isn't the same underage connection with the clubs, imo.

RuggieBear

well if rugby does take of in kerry it might give the rest of the country a chance in the GAA:D

toomevara

RuggieBear wrote: »

well if rugby does take of in kerry it might give the rest of the country a chance in the GAA:D

Just be a case of history repeating itself. kerry was the rugby powerhouse of Ireland a little more than 100 years ago. The rise of the GAA and the kerry love affair with gaelic football put paid to that...

RuggieBear

toomevara wrote: »

Just be a case of history repeating itself. kerry was the rugby powerhouse of Ireland a little more than 100 years ago. The rise of the GAA and the kerry love affair with gaelic football put paid to that...

I would argue that some Trinners would disagree with that!

daveharnett

Munster do seem to have been more successful in bringing talent from schools up to senior level. I think perhaps a focus on player development rather than results may be responsible. I saw plenty of talented players dropped in favour of those with better work ethics, decision making and team awareness.

Compare Anthony Foley, who looked nothing special at schools level but had the right mindset, to jeremy staunton, who was brilliant at schools, but never had the right attitude.

Amazotheamazing

Eh? Foley was great at schools, one of the first (then Cork) Examiner's young rugby players to watch back in the early 1990's.

What was wrong with Staunton's attitude, everyone I've met said he was too nice and not confident/arrogant enough to be as good as could have been?

daveirl

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Stev_o

Evil schools rugby makes many Leinster players heads inflate bigger then Ireland itself! Club rugby is where the sport should ly

Tim Robbins

daveirl wrote: »

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Personally I thought it was Kidney playing him full back or on the bench.
He hadn't the mental toughness to get back from that.

Amazotheamazing

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Personally I thought it was Kidney playing him full back or on the bench.
He hadn't the mental toughness to get back from that.

Shouldn't have been put in the position in the first place.

I wonder is that why Kidney is being especially careful with Earls (who incidentally went to Nessans until senior cup, when he swapped across to Munchins)? Earls actually could be Munster first truly great home grown back of the pro era, one of those players who seems to be playing at a different level to the others on the pitch, let's hope the system brings him through.

daveirl

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Woofer

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Also I don't buy the Limerick is the home of Irish Rugby. 3 schools play it competively and the from I hear the youths are no where near the level of schools.

Maybe because a limerick team has won 12 out of 17 AIL Division 1 titles? (not bad for a city of 50,000 ppl).

Maybe because we have thomand park, which is home to many a legendary match and a passionate crowd - not like the deathly silence during games at RDS/donnybrook (was there a couple of weeks ago - I mean seriously whats the story with this? The leinster crowd were "shushing" the visiting supporters during the game <NOT during the kicks> and I was told to sit down when i jumped up to see if they'd scored in the corner). Think this probabaly merits a whole new thread

And munster won the heineken cup too

In terms of schools rugby, we always bate the b0llix off any leinster teams we played during my time in schools (incl. rock, clongowes, michaels)

Sorry for going off topic a bit here

Tim Robbins

Woofer wrote: »

Maybe because a limerick team has won 12 out of 17 AIL Division 1 titles? (not bad for a city of 50,000 ppl).

I think that is a better achievement than the H Cup, although I think Clontarf were robbed in 06 when a few contracted players showed up for Shannon. But let's not turn this into a Munster V Leinster slagging match.

daveirl

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Amazotheamazing

About that Shannon Clontarf final, guys like Dowling and Flannery didn't play that day, along with a good few other senior contracted players like Foley, so not sure how you can say Clontarf were robbed?

Tim Robbins

daveirl wrote: »

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Trevor Hogan, Stephen Keogh, Mossie Lawlor all played.
I think it's unfair when IRFU paid professionals play against amateurs.
Clontarf were clearly the better team over the course of the season.

daveharnett

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Trevor Hogan, Stephen Keogh, Mossie Lawlor all played.
I think it's unfair when IRFU paid professionals play against amateurs.
Clontarf were clearly the better team over the course of the season.

Turn that argument around for a minute. How would the season have gone if shannon's best players had been available to them throughout?

It's not shannon's fault if their players are so good they get IRFU contracts

Edit: I do take tim's point that it's strange that munster/leinster players are still involved in AIL clubs when many of them have no time to actually play. However, AIL game time is important for periphiral players, and the AIL has suffered enough from the provences' success without adding insult to injury and robbing the players completely.

Tim Robbins

daveharnett wrote: »

Turn that argument around for a minute. How would the season have gone if shannon's best players had been available to them throughout?

It's not shannon's fault if their players are so good they get IRFU contracts

Edit: I do take tim's point that it's strange that munster/leinster players are still involved in AIL clubs when many of them have no time to actually play. However, AIL game time is important for periphiral players, and the AIL has suffered enough from the provences' success without adding insult to injury and robbing the players completely.

Towards the end of the season when the play off come about you'll see some clubs get theircontracted players and some clubs not. There was actually a huge ho ha between Dolphin and Young Munster about this in 2006. Kidney who is connected with Dolphin wouldn't allow Mike Prentergast play for Young Munster even though he wasn't getting his game for Dolphin.

The same 2006 season Clontarf had a few contracted players but didn't play them in the final.

Basically, the situation needs to be addressed.

daveirl

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Tim Robbins

daveirl wrote: »

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Not sure about that. Think Mossie played a few more than that. Besides you could make a similar argument for Prendergast.
I am not sure of current stipulations but surely something like, once you have played a certain amount of games at higher level, you can't play at a lower level. Or if you haven't play a certain amount of games during the year, you can't play in the play offs.

RuggieBear

Lawlor looked world class playing in those AIL games:)

Tim Robbins

RuggieBear wrote: »

Lawlor looked world class playing in those AIL games:)

I actually think he was handy enough player and looked way above AIL level anytime he played it.