Best Zeroing method

spideog7

Hey lads I was just reading a thread over on the hunting forum about lads shooting the middle out of coins and now I think I need some pointers on zeroing my rifle !!!!!
I understand obviously that that kind of accuracy needs a good shooter too though !
My setup is a .22WMR CZ452 with a Burris Fullfield II 3-9x40 scope with their Ballistic Plex reticle.
I have no bipod so I've just been holding the rifle with both hands and my left elbow rested on a wall or suitable rest. I find keeping it steady a slight issue, but I could honestly never see myself hitting a coin :eek:
Just wondering what's the best range to zero it at for a 70 to 100 yard shot I have a grand field for that job, so I can easily mark out a line of different distances and shoot into them and back into the hill I have a nice bunch of Shoot and see targets too.

Any and all advice welcome.

Thanks

IRLConor

spideog7 wrote: »

I have no bipod so I've just been holding the rifle with both hands and my left elbow rested on a wall or suitable rest. I find keeping it steady a slight issue, but I could honestly never see myself hitting a coin :eek:

A bipod would probably be a big help. There's a reason they're banned in the kind of shooting I do!

Keeping it steady through the aim is one thing, having consistent stabilization of the rifle through the shot is much more difficult if you're shooting unsupported.

J.R.

Few links here to try out:

http://www.zeroriflescope.co.uk/

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-To-Zero-A-Rifle-Scope&id=415018

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.sightin.html

quackquackBOOM

try raising the stock where your cheek tips the stock if you have the cz452 lux your stock drops at the comb for the use of fixed sights this might be your problem or try breathing right.
i used half inch foam the same as you get on camping mats

johngalway

Save up for a bi-pod but not buying any more shoot'n'c targets!

My calipers tells me a 1 Euro coin is 0.911 inches, 2 Euro is 1.011 inches. Trace one out on a sheet of printer paper, colour in the inside, and you've lots of roughly inch big targets free

For Gods sakes lads don't be shooting money :D:D It doesn't grow on trees, what doesn't it grow on? (Rich shower of so'n'so's )

As for stability, I have used jackets, rolled up old towels, backpacks to zero my .22lr (bi-pod now). Whatever you find to be steady lying prone. But you won't beat a bi-pod unless you use front and rear shooting bags.

Edited to add, I have used rolled up thinsulate type caps under the butt of the rifle too in addition to the above.

Umiq88

I would be zeroing at 100yards with a .22wmr to get the most out of it.

If you trying to improve your accuracy couple of ways to do it...

First ammo choice different ammo will shoot differently in differnt guns i'd be shooting whinchester super-x ammo or remington 33grn v-max depending on how much you want to spend but the v-max are a very good round.

Bipod will help not only zeroing it but means you always have a sloid rest.

For a .22wmr a 100yard zero makes good use of the tradjectory.

With a .22wmr once you can keep it within 2" at 100yards your fine if your getting much smaller than 1.5" give yourself a big pat on the back

thehair

J.R. wrote: »

Few links here to try out:

http://www.zeroriflescope.co.uk/

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-To-Zero-A-Rifle-Scope&id=415018

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.sightin.html

thank you JR for the linkes:D:D:D

spideog7

Yea thanks for the links, some good advice there. I'm definitely hitting the target anyway at 100yds (sorry John but given the price of those Bipods I reckon saving the price of the $10 targets aren't going to make much of dent in it !!)
I shot a crow at about 50yds so I must be doing something right but I hate that every time I aim up I'm thinking it'll be a stroke of luck along with everything else that gets me the shot. I'd like to be more confident of my shot.
Shootin 40gr hollow points at the moment but have a box of V-Max I'll try those next weekend when I get home to do some shooting.

One other thing, how do ye lads all shoot from prone ?? I mean the ground is mostly water logged around me this time of year, ye must have yer selves ruined

jimbo 22

Bushnell manufacture bore sighters if you dont already tkow about them, they use a lazer.

Around 70 Euro should get you one

No experience using one of them

any one out there ever use one or any comments?

johngalway

spideog7 wrote: »

(sorry John but given the price of those Bipods I reckon saving the price of the $10 targets aren't going to make much of dent in it !!)

One other thing, how do ye lads all shoot from prone ?? I mean the ground is mostly water logged around me this time of year, ye must have yer selves ruined

Mine only cost me 50 Euro and you'll save on ammo

Use waterproof hunting gear

Seen McBride use a Laser boresighter to zero in a rifle of mine one time. Unless you're going to be doing an awful lot of that craic I wouldn't think them worth the expense. It can be done by eye handy enough.

bunny shooter

jimbo 22 wrote: »

Bushnell manufacture bore sighters if you dont already tkow about them, they use a lazer.

Around 70 Euro should get you one

No experience using one of them

any one out there ever use one or any comments?

They will roughly zero the scope to the rifle (+ or - 6" up or down.left or right) but 'fine tuning' would be necessary

cavan shooter

I have a hawke shot saver, bought it for about 80 quid (ok) if starting from scratch.
However I still zero by getting it to hit a bull at 25 yrds, then 50 yrds etc out to 100.

rrpc

The cheapest, handiest and downright most versatile method of stabilising a sporting rifle is by using a two point sling. To those who don't know, that's the strap that goes from under the stock to the fore end and is usually used for carrying the rifle over your shoulder.

Simply stick your left elbow between the rifle and the sling, hook the sling on the outside of your elbow and then insert your left hand under the sling at the fore end.

If your sling is the right length (and they are adjustable), you will have a rock steady hold standing, kneeling or prone.

spideog7

I've tried something like that rrpc, but my sling has a pad on it for your shoulder, so I found it didn't really work that well, although I may not have been doing it the way you say I was in knots trying to figure out a good way of holding it like as I had seen it done before !!

cavan_shooter, what calibre are you using like that, I think that's what I plan to do next time I try to zero, as per the last link on JR's post. Might try some shooting sticks before I go splash out on a bipod, just to see if I like that kind of setup.

Thanks for all the advice lads, I'll let you know how I get on

Umiq88

Can make a bipod handy enough i made one out of bamboo sticks a nut and gun tape might havea pic somewhere ill have a look

They're not a patch on a proper bipod i only paid 90euro for mine its a 9-13" swivel harris and theres the dogs nuts rifles come and go but ill never sell my bipod

rrpc

spideog7 wrote: »

I've tried something like that rrpc, but my sling has a pad on it for your shoulder, so I found it didn't really work that well, although I may not have been doing it the way you say I was in knots trying to figure out a good way of holding it like as I had seen it done before !!

The pad shouldn't matter so long as it's in the middle or towards the butt. The procedure is as I said, I'll try and make it more detailed, it's hard without pictures.

This is for a right handed shooter.

Place your left elbow between the rifle and the sling and move your elbow away from the rifle so that the sling is caught on the outside of your elbow.

Do the same with your left hand close to where the sling is fixed to the fore end, but bring your hand back around the sling from underneath around and over the sling so that it is wrapped over the top of your wrist, and then grip the fore end just behind the sling swivel.

The sling should then be going across the back of your hand and over your wrist, outside your elbow and back to the butt. Your hand should be fairly tight against the sling swivel preventing it from slipping down the fore end.

If the sling is the right length (loosen or tighten according to taste) you will have a very steady hold very quickly.

You get the hang of this and you can have the rifle off your shoulder and in position very quickly indeed.

Manic Moran

Just wondering what's the best range to zero it at

There are two methods of zeroing: Preset distance, and mean intersection. This is going to be a little long, but should help figure out why you want to reserach your zeroing distance, and not just take a preference.

Preset distance is easy: If you know that almost always you will be shooting at a certain range, particularly if it's going to be on a normal rifle range, simply adjust the sights so that the holes appear where the crosshairs are. This can, however, be problematic if you're doing field shooting as you won't know exactly what range your target will show up at. This is what you'd do for target rifle, or if you have a scope with superelevation indicators such as an ACOG.

Mean intersection is the better of the two, but far and away the more difficult. It works on the premise that line of sight of aim will intersect with the trajectory of the round in two places (Unless you just happen to be zeroed at the trajectory's apogee). In tanker terms, it's called a 'battlesight' zero. You would use this if you have no idea what range your next shot will be at, and the object is to have the trajectory at all times remain within one target form of the line of aim. For example, if you're shooting at a rabbit, you want to zero at such a range that until you get to a hundred meters or whatever (Depending on the round, obviously) the trajectory is never more than half-a rabbit's height away from the line of aim until it starts falling off. You may hit a little high, or a little low, but you'll hit. Anything beyond that becomes a matter of applying superelevation. In order to get this to work, you must take into account not only the trajectory of the round, but also the parralax distance between the barrel and the sights.

For example, the US Army zeroes the M-16 at 25 yards. The bullet trajectory will meet the line of aim at two locations. Once at 25 yards as it's on the way up, and once at about 230 yards, on its way down again. (In other words, if you're holding the rifle so that the sights are absolutely horizontal, the barrel is pointing up slightly). Once you start getting beyond 250 yards, then you need to start aiming high on the target in order to score a hit.
To illustrate this better, if you imagine shooting at a naked person, and aiming at the belly button. At point blank range, the impact would be about 2" below the belly button. At 25 yards, you'd hit the belly button. At 50 yards, you'd be about 2" above the belly button. At 100 yards you'd be about 4" above. At 150, somewhere around 6", and this is as high in the arc as the bullet gets. At 200m it's about 3", at 230m it's on the belly button again, at 250m you'll get his testicles, and at 300m you'll hit his knee height.

Now, let us presume you generally do unknown-distance shooting, such as hunting, and you use an M16, and you zero at 150m, pretty much at the top of the arc. This would mean that no matter what range you shoot at, your rounds will hit low to one extent or another. Unless, of course, you happen to have a target which is 150m away. Your maximum effective range is reduced. For a small target like a rabbit, you'd only impact the target at, say, between 80m and 180m if you aimed centre mass.

Similarly, if you were to do an parallel zero, so that the sights and the barrel are perfectly aligned, every round is going to be short. Your maximum effective range is stupidly reduced, but your minimum range is point blank. You'd hit the rabbit at ranges from 0 through maybe 80 yards. However, if your scope is graduated, or sights are scaled on a ramp (like an FAL's iron sight), the appropriate superelevation can be determined and applied. If your scope is a simple crosshair, you need to guess yourself how high up on the target you need to aim.

So, to make the long story short, if your scope has a manual which says 'For a .22, we recommend zeroing at X many meters', then follow it. If your scope has no manual, then you need to find a bullet trajectory chart, compare this with how high above the barrel your scope sits, and find the zeroing range for those two factors which results in the longest span that line of aim and line of flight are acceptably close.

NTM

riflehunter77

Lad im not going to bore you with the ins and out of zeroing, you probably no all that. I would agree with what the lads have said already invest in a bipod, check out e bay you could probably pick up one for about 60 us dollars. One thing i would say is when zeroing any gun, take your time i have seen alot of people rush this through the years, guys taking a shot hoping up checking the hit re dialling the scope in rushing back taking another shot and so on so on and they wonder why they cant get a tight group. Another point a simple one is make sure when you are taking your shot that you take it from the exact position every time, put down some sticks as markers. Control your breathing nice slow breaths slow that heart rate down, if you feel the heart rate pumping a bit two much put your gun down and give youself a few moments. you will be able to see a lot more clearly then and you will tend not to pull the trigger to quickly ( many shots are lost with this). Check out the following web site its is based on Sniper marksmanship it will give you the low down on everything from body position, breathing, to making your own bipods to eye relief.http://www.sr25.com/manuals/23-10/ch3.htm

meathstevie

Before you even start thinking about zeroing you'll need to mount your scope. It's essential here to do two things : 1) use quality mounts with as good a fit to your rifle as possible. The quality of the mounts is as important as the scope itself 2) mount your scope as low on the gun as possible.

From personal experience : the hawke shotsaver is worth buying. I've always been hitting an A4 sheet of paper from 100 paces using it for a rough line up. Once your on target you can fine tune. Once you've achieved your best zero stick the shotsaver back up the spout and write down your hit on the grid and voila..zeroing trouble over.

spideog7

Great advice lads

Manic Moran
What you said is very similar to the third link in JR's post earlier, that's the page I have saved and printed off as I though it had the best advice and it gave me a better understanding of the whole trajectory of the bullet.

One thing I was confused about in your post is that when you zero are you not automatically zeroing at the second point where the bullet meets the line of aim ie. where the bullet is coming down ? I would have thought that the first point is so close as to not "need" to be zeroed, or should I start by zeroing it very close then moving way out and seeing where the second "zero" is ?

meathstevie
I've already mounted the scope and I did follow a simple guide on doing that, I hope I did it well but I did buy a single piece mount to try and avoid too much error.



Thanks for all the links too they all have some interesting reading on

Thanks,

EDIT: According to my scope mount spec sheet from the base of the mount to the centre of the scope is 31-32mm.

rrpc

spideog7 wrote: »

Great advice lads
One thing I was confused about in your post is that when you zero are you not automatically zeroing at the second point where the bullet meets the line of aim ie. where the bullet is coming down ? I would have thought that the first point is so close as to not "need" to be zeroed, or should I start by zeroing it very close then moving way out and seeing where the second "zero" is ?

I don't think you quite understood MM's post. The 'zero' is only where the path of the bullet and the line of your sights intersect. Remember that the centre line of your scope is fixed as much as 4" above the centre line of your barrel, so at point blank range your shot will be 4" below what you've fixed your cross hairs on. No amount of adjustment on the scope will get the two to intersect at point blank, so you can never be zeroed there.

It wil take a certain distance down the flight path of the bullet before the two intersect and at that point the bullet is crossing the point of aim on its upward trajectory. It will cross it again on its way down, and that's why you can be zeroed for two different distances.

You can figure out youreslf where the second zero is from tables, depending on the ammo you use, the height your scope is above the barrel and what the first zero is.

Umiq88

Think you said you had a .22wmr the tradjectory for it is in here

With a 100yard zero the bullet first crosses the line of the scope (0 line on the chart) at 25yards will continue rising to its peak at around 75 yars and then fall back through the line of sight at 100yards and i think is around an inch low at 115yards

This will give you an alloance of 1.5" out to 115 yards id be inclined to strecth the tradjectory a little more and zero for 115 and you should be good to 125 without having to compensate.

rrpc

That's pretty good Psitta, gets the point across very well. I think the .22lr subs will cross at 25 yards and 75 yards if my memory is correct. The one on the graph is a high velocity round.

spideog7

I understand what he was saying about that rrpc, I know that there are two points where the bullet intersects the line of sight on it's flight. My question was how do you ensure that you are zeroing it so that those two points are in such a position that the apex of the arc is never more than 1.5inches (in the example for small targets) above the line of sight, and how do you ensure that you don't zero on the apex such that the bullet is never above the line of sight, because I think that's what I've done !!!!

I presume that it's simply by using the trajectory path shown in psittacosis' post (Thanks by the way I was looking for that) and taking into account environmental differences and scope height differences if necessary. So circa 100yds (+-10-ish) would be the ideal point to have the bullet zeroed, and the maximum height of the bullet above the lins of sight can be determined by progressively firing on closer targets and watching where the bullet lands ??

It has been very well explained by numerous people and I do appreciate the time you all take in writing posts so I try to do my best to take the time to understand them, but I think I just need to pick up my rifle and go see

Slug chucker

As above, buy a bipod. Splash out on one that swivels for uneven ground.
Make sure your cross hairs are perfectly square.
Go online and get your favourite bullet manufacturers ballistic data. Find the point blank range and set zero to the yardage.
Point blank range (robbed from the net) “The point blank range of any gun is the range distance out to which a shooter can hold right on his game or target and be assured of a hit within the vital zone of the animal or target. In other words, the shooter does not have to hold high or low to correct for the bullet trajectory. This eases the problem that many hunters have of estimating the distance to a game animal. As long as the range to a game animal is not farther than the point blank range of the gun, the hunter can aim at the center of the vital zone on the animal and be assured of a hit.”
For a 40 grain JHP the muzzle velocity is about 1,910 fps
Running it through a ballistic calculator giving the rifle a 100 yard zero it comes out something like this:
Range Drop

(yds) (in) (moa)
10 -0.8 -8.0
20 -0.3 -1.3
30 0.2 0.6
40 0.5 1.3
50 0.8 1.5
60 0.9 1.4
70 0.9 1.2
80 0.7 0.9
90 0.4 0.5
100 -0.0 -0.0
110 -0.6 -0.5
120 -1.3 -1.1
130 -2.2 -1.6
140 -3.3 -2.3
150 -4.6 -2.9
This is only a rough calculation but you get the idea, zeroed at 100 yards its pretty much point and fire at anything out to 120 yards and you’ve got it!
Increase your zero range a bit further if you wish but I’d suggest you keep your point blank zero not much more than 1.5” max or you’ll start to miss stuff.
A cheap laser rangefinder is a great tool to aid accurate shot placement, takes all the doubt away.
Cheers,
Slug Chucker

spideog7

Yea my scope has marks on the vertical crosshair that indicate drop at larger ranges, I think they are mainly for larger calibres but I'll worry about them when I have the basics down!!
And just for kicks here is a pic I took :

Manic Moran

Yea my scope has marks on the vertical crosshair that indicate drop at larger ranges

Your scope's manual should indicate if the ticks are for range ballistically matched to a particular round type, or if they are mils, degrees or MsOA. (Believe me, you want mils, if it's not matched to your ammunition!)

The point blank range of any gun is the range distance out to which a shooter can hold right on his game or target and be assured of a hit within the vital zone of the animal or target

This is extremely similar in concept to the battlesight range with which I am familiar. I'm afraid that you're going to have to take my comments at a distance, as you won't find many hunters talking about a battlesight range. This is probably just a confusing FYI, but the technical difference between battlesight range and maximum point blank range is that battlesight range is at the level which the line of aim and line of trajectory intersect, and maximum point blank is the range that the round has dropped off so far that you will no longer hit the target. See attached picture. For the purposes of making a comparison, pretend that the T-64 is actually a rabbit, and the distances are a bit smaller!

The point of battlesight/maximum point blank is that you don't need to adjust off. Just aim centre mass and pull the trigger. As you can see, from 0m to 1,600m in this diagram, the round never flies any higher or lower than the target (maximum ordinate) which means that from 0-1,600m you will score a hit. In tanker terms, battlesight is 1,200m and in hunter terms, maximum point blank is 1,600m.

Regardless of what term you use, the trick is balancing maximum range with maximum ordinate. Obviously, the closer to 45 degrees (give or take, due to wind resistance), the further your round will go. But as you can imagine, if you were to double the angle of arc in the diagram, there would be a gap in coverage: Trajectory would be within the target height from 0m to 300m, would be high until you got to about 1,400m, and it would hit the ground at 1,800m. Obviously this does you no good if the target happens to be at 800m. You'll miss. Maximum ordnate should never take you higher than your target, which puts an upper limit on the superelevation.

So, you must first make an assumption: How big is the target you are shooting at going to be? If you're hunting rabbits which are 8" tall, your maximum ordinate can never be more than 4". (I'm working on the premise 'a hit is good enough' without worrying about killing locations).

Add this maximum ordinate to the height of your scope. If your scope is mounted 2" above the barrel, that means that you should find a trajectory which arcs at 6". Then you have to zero the the sights to this arc. The range at which you zero will be the same range at which this arc crosses the 2" barrier, which will happen in two places. Zero at the closer of the two (Point Blank Range, in hunterspeak), it saves on walking and is easier to see the impacts!

NTM

clivej

Have a look here for the Hawke Ballistic Reticles Calculator it's a small installation for the PC and seems to work well. You can input in different bulitt types. It shows the trajectory for the bulitt.
http://www.hawkeoptics.com/brc/index.htm

Slug chucker

Here's one for all you boys with mil dots to play with:
http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemolow.html
I enjoyed it but you'l need to read a bit before you use it or it'll wreck your head

spideog7

Well I never got a chance to tell you how my adventures went due the whole .....

Anyway I went out Saturday with two targets and set them up at 50 and 100yds layed down a nice big tarp on the wet grass to keep me dry and set up my bags as recommended. Of course in my curiosity (and since I was going to be re-zeroing my scope anyway) I took the rifle apart on Friday and re-set the trigger and put it all back together and re-mounted the scope. I forgot to align the scope roughly by eyeing through the barrel and my first 3 shots didn't even land on the target at 100yds, I had taken three before I checked <sigh>
So I had to move to 50yds and I was still missing, luckily the grass was sogging and I could see the spray where the bullet was hitting so I just used that to get it onto the target. (I saw the spray at 100yds too so at least I know my shot was low and not flying off somwhere random).
Anyway long story short it started raining and my tarp instead of keeping me dry pooled water and absolutely soaked me, I eventually got it going at 100yds but ran out of bullets after firing the 17 on my belt :eek: (It was fun at this stage if a bit expensive). My windage adjusting knobs also got absolutely soaked so I went home to dry them out and make sure my scope didn't let in water !!
So I've come to the conclusion that a rest for the gun (bipod or similar) is the way to go, it steady up my shot so much and meant that the four clicks I adjusted on my scope resulted in the bullet landing an inch higher on my target exactly as expected every time

One other thing that disturbed me a little was the two misfires I had with the V-Max I was shooting. Two misfires out of 17 is a bit much and the bullet was clearly hammered twice cause I checked them, they both fired the second time after I reset the hammer.

Sorry for the long windedness, not a very successful event all in all, stupid rain !!

fathersymes

The 1 Shot Zero: Simply fire a shot and adjust reticles so as they line up with the hole in the paper, this is after you have boresighted it and you are on paper.

meathstevie

If I may add to fathersymes. Fire 3 and stick the sight on the center of the group.

José Alaninho

meathstevie wrote: »

If I may add to fathersymes. Fire 3 and stick the sight on the center of the group.

Good idea.

Manic Moran

In fairness, that should be standard practise for zeroing. (the group).

The difficulty is figuring out all the other bits and bobs.

NTM