Dublin CITY Airport???

Preset No.3

Can I just throw that one out there? Dublin City Airport?? Is there any possibility of such a venture? What about weston? Is there a need or demand for a small regional airport in County Dublin? It worked for London and Belfast, why not Dublin?

jahalpin

Preset No.3 wrote: »

Can I just throw that one out there? Dublin City Airport?? Is there any possibility of such a venture? What about weston? Is there a need or demand for a small regional airport in County Dublin? It worked for London and Belfast, why not Dublin?

It worked in London because the population density is much higher than Dublin, the population of London is roughly the same as the whole of R.O.I..

Everything in Northern Ireland is heavily subsidised by the governement

cyrusdvirus

Your suggestion of Weston won't work either. It's still an hour away from the city centre at rush hour. You're just as quick going from the existing airport.

Maybe if there was one built on the docklands, but it'll never happen to be honest

IRLConor

jahalpin wrote: »

It worked in London because the population density is much higher than Dublin, the population of London is roughly the same as the whole of R.O.I..

Closer to 2-3 times the population of Ireland, depending on where you draw the line on London (and I guess "Ireland").

The population density of Dublin & London are pretty much the same (all figures from Wikipedia):

London (Greater London figures):
Area: 1,577.3 km²
Population: 7,512,400
Density: 4763 people/km²

Dublin (don't know which boundary the area refers to):
Area: 114.99 km²
Population (City): 505,739
Population (Urban Area): 1,045,769
Population (Region): 1,186,821
Population (Greater Dublin Area): 1,661,185
Density: 4398-14446 people/km² (depending on which population figure you use - I suspect the area figure is for the city)

For comparison, here's some other cities:

Paris: 3542/km² (inner city is 24,783/km²)
Amsterdam: 4,459/km²
Mumbai: 21,880/km² :eek:

Neworder79

Belfast city is a great facility, only 10 mins form the city centre and quick and convenient for uK flights.

I think people would be very happy to have an alternative to Dublin Airport, especially for domestic and short haul routes where getting transport to, parking and check-in can add hours to a journey. Aer Arann offer good domestic service but the train/bus can often be quicker than flying from Dublin at peak times. Metro North will help a lot but that could be some time off.

A smaller, easily accessible airport to the south west of the city would be ideal, but it would have to be next to key transport links (Luas/Metro) with quick access to the city centre. But finding a site isn't easy. Weston is too far out and no advantage over the current airport, Baldonnell is close to Luas/M50 but not likely to change use being our only major military field unless shared. As mentioned the docklands could be an option in the future with Dublin Port moving out and proximity to future Luas, Interconnector rail lines.

jackofalltrades

It worked for London and Belfast, why not Dublin?

Its works in London because the airport has excellent public transport connections. You can get into the centre of Dublin fairly fast in a taxi/bus if it uses the Port tunnel, any new airport you build would have to be able to at least match this.

Also Dublin Airport is very good from a safety point of view(very little living on the approach or takeoff path).

One airport is more than enough, all they need to do is work on setting up some kind of rail link.

APM

Probably also worth adding that the airspace surrounding Dublin airport is extremely busy as it is (and mountains to the south of the city). And adding another airport with approach and departure paths, SIDS/STARS....etc into the mix that is already there would be very difficult given that any new airport closer to the city would be within 5nm of the current one.

If only they could get the one we currently have right.....

ian_m

Dublin airport is already maxed out as it is. Only for unions and Aer Rianta Ryanair would have made Dublin an expanded base like Stansted.

The Irish are too slow at picking up on these things.

I think its a great idea to have another airport. With the way the population is sprawling West would be ideal.

Steyr

Baldonnel was discussed before...Alot of US ANG Bases are half mil and half civvy.

cyrusdvirus

Steyr wrote: »

Baldonnel was discussed before...Alot of US ANG Bases are half mil and half civvy.

It's still too far out.

pclancy

Physically there's nowhere for it to be built though, even if it was a serious viable venture. Where could you put a min say 5000ft runway around the city centre or docklands

Surely increasing DUBs capacity and creating a high speed rail link with the city centre is a better idea. Though it probably wont happen until 2050 thanks to our glorious leaders.

Saruman

Phoenix park.. Failing that, level Finglas

Sure we could concrete up the liffey and let it run underground.... imagine a runway right down the middle of the city! Very convenient i would think

pclancy

Lol!

Out of interest where does city centre helicopter traffic land? Are there no heliports around the city centre/docklands? Dont they have heliports near the rivers in London and New York etc, wouldnt that be a handy idea for the business bigwigs?

Neworder79

I've drawn up a map with proposed transport links to aid discussion. The new Citywest Luas line isn't too far from Baldonnell, but I think the Docklands would be the best plan (assuming the port moves out) with easy access from both sides of the city via the new C1 Luas and Inteconnector stations.

therecklessone

gatecrash wrote: »

It's still too far out.

London City Airport is the success it is because it serves the business community and financial district of London.

LCY is almost 12kms from Bank underground station by road, or 22mins by DLR.

Baldonnel to the IFSC is 4km longer by road, but would take probably 50mins+ by LUAS if extended to BAL and onwards to the IFSC.

Not ideal, but then a second passenger airport at BAL would allow much greater access to Citywest. Bear in mind the recent move towards IFR movements at Weston to target business aviation into the region, that should show there is some demand for access to South Dublin.

The fourth most regular user of DUB is Netjets, who provide fractional ownership of biz jets.

I'd also add that given the regeneration of the docklands area with a considerable emphasis on housing, it would be unlikely that a new airport would make it past the planning process. Much more likely that an existing airfield could be adapted to accomodate new business.

Saruman

The problem with the docklands idea is we need more development down there if the city is to grow. Its more important than an airport.

pclancy

Neworder79 wrote: »

I've drawn up a map with proposed transport links to aid discussion. The new Citywest Luas line isn't too far from Baldonnell, but I think the Docklands would be the best plan (assuming the port moves out) with easy access from both sides of the city via the new C1 Luas and Inteconnector stations.

Cool map. I can see a bit of a problem with the southern location and poolbegs chimmneys though? :eek:

WexCan

Dublin just doesn't have the population to justify another airport. Some have suggested utilizind Baldonnell a bit more - this would definitely be a good idea. Tony Ryan was quite a fan of Baldonnell in the early Ryanair days and would have loved to use it as Dublin's second airport (with suitably lower fees, not controlled by the then Aer Rianta).

Some bizjet traffic would be well suited to Baldonnell.

In saying all this, once there's a decent rail link between the city and the airport, and then onwards to the suburbs, and once the new terminal is in place, Dublin shouldbe laughing. Oh and a new runway of course.

Victor

Assumming a 1700m runway with 200m at either end and 100m either side. Thats

2100 x 200m = 42 heactares at say €50/hectare. Thats €2.1 billion for land alone. Then there is the slight matter of the tall buildings going into the Docklands - U2 tower, a 15om high hotel at spencer Dock and the Watchtower at the point depot.

The Phoenix Park was once considered as a site for the airport, as was Merrion Strand.

Corega

Can't see it happening myself, cost etc. But if it were to be done surely the best option would be what they did with Kansai airport. You don't have to buy any land as it's at sea, though I'm sure the cost of putting land there would make up for that.

rf4c

I don't visit very often so I'm replying to a very old thread.
Those who thing a Dublin City Airport are very very wrong.
I was responsible for developiing such a project back in the mid to late 80's when the new IFSC was starting up.

We almost made it, but vested interests and "stroking" killed it.
We had the design approval. We had the money. We even had the customers! We were ready to go, but some fancy footwork by some land developers stopped the whole thing.

Technically it would have worked.
If you go to Google Earth, you'll see where it was to be:
Southeast of Fairview Park, there's a red dot indicating Tolka Quay.
The piece of land jutting out into the bay on which now stands a business park, bordered on the south by East Wall road, was the site.

It was to have a runway 10/28, parallel to the main Dublin Airport runway, hence no conflicting traffic!

There was even talk of a dedicated Dart station!

I'll leave it at that in case nobody's there to read it at this stage, but if there's any interest, please reply and I'll go into more detail.

Best wishes to all!

Jim

Mickey_D

Very interesting.... Please go on.....

sparrowcar

:rolleyes:

BrianD

rf4c wrote: »

I don't visit very often so I'm replying to a very old thread.
Those who thing a Dublin City Airport are very very wrong.
I was responsible for developiing such a project back in the mid to late 80's when the new IFSC was starting up.

We almost made it, but vested interests and "stroking" killed it.
We had the design approval. We had the money. We even had the customers! We were ready to go, but some fancy footwork by some land developers stopped the whole thing.

Technically it would have worked.
If you go to Google Earth, you'll see where it was to be:
Southeast of Fairview Park, there's a red dot indicating Tolka Quay.
The piece of land jutting out into the bay on which now stands a business park, bordered on the south by East Wall road, was the site.

It was to have a runway 10/28, parallel to the main Dublin Airport runway, hence no conflicting traffic!

There was even talk of a dedicated Dart station!

I'll leave it at that in case nobody's there to read it at this stage, but if there's any interest, please reply and I'll go into more detail.

Best wishes to all!

Jim

Weren't you saved by the bell! Talk about a stroke of luck that saved you from going ahead with that one! I would shake the hands of those developers who stopped you!

Dublin has no need for a second airport. I can't see why we would. It's a metro area is about 1.2m. Contrast that with London where you have 13.9m people.

Simple answer: No customers for a second airport.

BTW the Tolka Quay project was a dreadful location for an airport.

rf4c

Brian,
Could you explain your expertise in making these comments.

1) The airport was designed to the ICAO criteria and approved by the Department for STOL operations.

2) Aer Rianta also took an interest because at the time, one of their directors commented to me that Dublin Airport was "bursting at the seams".

3) Dublin to London was at the time, the worlds busiest air route.

4) Our research showed that over 70% of business travellers to London
lived on the south side of Dublin, along the Dart belt.

5) We were inspected by the ICAO and the site was deemed to be the only site possible in Dublin, and in their words " a perfect complement to Dublin Airport" both commercially and operationally.

6) In the space of only meetings with financiers, they fell over themselves to give us 100% of the money.

7) A very large European financial institution whom the government were trying to get into the IFSC made it a condition that the airport would be built before they would agree to come. The airport wasn't buit, they didn't come!

8) Three airlines signed up as soon as we received approval.
There was also a parallel project to establish a new Dublin City Airways, along the llines of the Cityjet model.
All in all the project was destined to create 1200 jobs during construction and 560 jobs when operational

Brian, could you back up your comments with support and tell us your basis of credibility.

sparrowcar

Dublin airport was not bursting at the seams in the mid to late 80's? Moderate expansion happened during those years but it wasn't until the late 90's that Dublin airports size became an issue?

rf4c

I'm sorry but you can't make such statements without backup.
Infrastructure is planned decades in advance.

Aer Rianta was already feeling the pressure in the 80's and by the time "DCY" was built it would have been the godsend they wished for.

If you make such statements, your simply contradicting a man who made the statement to me, a man who had been running the airport for many years, and very very successfully too.

I know who I'd rather believe!

sparrowcar

rf4c wrote: »

I'm sorry but you can't make such statements without backup.
Infrastructure is planned decades in advance.

In an ideal world yes. Not in Aer Rianta's world. Hence how we are left with 2 terminals 10 years to late.

Aer Rianta was already feeling the pressure in the 80's and by the time "DCY" was built it would have been the godsend they wished for.

Source, figures?

If you make such statements, your simply contradicting a man who made the statement to me, a man who had been running the airport for many years, and very very successfully too.

Name of said man?

I know who I'd rather believe!

rf4c

In an ideal world yes. Not in Aer Rianta's world. Hence how we are left with 2 terminals 10 years to late.

because DCY wasn't built!


Source, figures?

You made the statement you back it up!
My sources are a combination of public records, commissioned research and industry sources. However the info you seek is 800 pages long. Can't help you further!


Name of said man?

Are you serious?
An executve director at the time, since retired, who wouldn't appreciate me breaking his confidentiality.
His lawyers would be in touch with Boards.ie and I don't want to be banned here!

It was your challenge - you back up your claims

sparrowcar

Firstly writing everything in bold is considered as shouting or rude in this forum.

Secondly from what I have read from you so far and your last comments about not wanting to disclose the names even though you have already said "If you make such statements, your simply contradicting a man who made the statement to me, a man who had been running the airport for many years, and very very successfully too." lead me to two conclusions.

1) Your information is based on a college/secondary school project which you are trying to suggest was reality at some stage.

2) You are a troll, who signed up today to try and engage us in your fantasy.

Either way I'm done with this. We'll let the readers decide

Delancey

Why is is that seemingly almost everyone in this country believes the panacea for their regions economic woes is to build an airport ?
There are way too many airports as it is - we have built airports when perhaps the money might have been better spent on the lousy roads.

As pointed out - London City and Belfast City airports are much more convenient to their respective city centres than either Weston or Baldonnell and in the case of London we should not forget that city is probably the biggest financial centre in the world - we have the IFSC.

alan85

Neworder79 wrote: »

I've drawn up a map with proposed transport links to aid discussion. The new Citywest Luas line isn't too far from Baldonnell, but I think the Docklands would be the best plan (assuming the port moves out) with easy access from both sides of the city via the new C1 Luas and Inteconnector stations.

Bad idea in my opinion. Birds and planes don't get on. Bull Island beside your proposed area, Europe's largest city wildlife sanctuary and is listed by UNESCO.

Do you think the government are going to allow this be built when they have to prop up the DAA for the moment after T2? So funding won't be coming from government for sure. Best of luck getting private funding for that! Also, you seem to have plonked the runway in the middle of one of our most important assets for our infamous exports... ARE YA MAD?!?!

Nissan doctor

I don't know about whats been posted here about past 'DCY' projects but the reason that the roads infrastructure has been improved to the level it has in the Balbriggan area is that the future plans are to build an entirely new Dublin port at Bremore, slightly north of Balbriggan. When I lived there at one stage a big info pack was delivered to all the houses detailing the future roads and port plans etc.

It also showed the projected plans for the current Dublin port site, which showed numerous high rise building as well as.....a city airport.

This was only about 5 years ago(dammed if I know what I did with the info pack)

I sure either way whatever plans may or may not exist they are a long way down the road now..



Just found this after some searching which is along the lines of what we got..

http://smoke-me-a-kipper-back-for-breakfast.blogspot.com/2007/06/new-heart-for-dublin.html

rf4c

Nissan Doctor and Alan!

Both of you make very valid comments, IF the airport was being proposed now.
However, I think you missed the point.
In my original post, I said:
"I was responsible for developing such a project back in the mid to late 80's when the new IFSC was starting up."

Sparrowcar!
Not being familiar with forum etiquette, I didn't realise bold type was rude.
For this I apologise.
I was cutting and pasting your comments, and my answers adapted the same typeface as you used -
bold, as I remember!
On the subject of being rude, do you not think it's rude to call someone a troll when they are
here to make an intelligent contribution to this conversation. Speaking of school projects, it's
the mark of a schoolboy to engage in such abuse.
All you've done is contradict me.
You have no evidence to do so, no skills or professional knowledge to support your opinion and
have done nothing except call me names and run away by saying you're finished talking about the
subject. One might say childish?
I have no agenda, no fantasy.
I happened to be doing a Google search for something else, and the key words brought up this
thread, so I thought I'd read it, given my history with the project.
I don't have the time or inclination to go to great trouble to convince someone like you.
It happened!
It was endorsed by all the economic experts as commercially viable.
It was endorsed by all the technical bodies as feasible.
It was fully financed.
It secured many high quality customers.
It didn't happen because of a predatory move on the land by some property
speculators who were more concerned with their own greed than the provision
of a major transport development for Dublin, and a lot of jobs to one of
the poorest areas of the city.
If you still think it's all in my head, do some research.
Here's a small sample of where to look:
Evening Herald December 18th 1987
Irish Independent January 6th 1988
Evening Herald January 29th 1988
Sunday Tribune February 14th 1988
Aspect Magazine March 1988 edition
Irish Press April 11th 1988
Evening Herald April 28th 1988
Irish Times May 5th 1988
Irish Times May 8th 1988
Irish Independent May 12th 1988
Business & Finance Magazine May 12th 1988
Evening Press May 27th 1988
Irish Independent July 7th 1988
Irish Independent July 30th 1988
Irish Press July 30th 1988
Irish Times July 30th 1988
Irish Press August 3rd 1988
Irish Times August 9th 1988
Irish Times August 19th 1988
Irish Times Property Supplement December 1st 1988
Evening Press February 7th 1989
Airclaims Information Digest March 15th 1989
Irish Independent October 4th 1989
Irish Times October 4th 1989
Flight International August 29th 1990

Sparrowcar, I don't know where your cynicism and anger is coming from,
but at least I tried to do something. What have you done for your city?
Now we're finished!

rf4c

A P.S. for Alan

UNESCO were cosulted on Bull Island, visited here, studied it and
gave us approval.

They're used to coping with cases like this one.
There are several such cases of protected sites near airports
and were agreed to many procedures regarding traffic patterns
to live in harmony with Bull Island.

Neworder79

alan85 wrote: »

Do you think the government are going to allow this be built when they have to prop up the DAA for the moment after T2? So funding won't be coming from government for sure. Best of luck getting private funding for that! Also, you seem to have plonked the runway in the middle of one of our most important assets for our infamous exports... ARE YA MAD?!?!

Whats all the hot air about, I posted that map in 2008. At the time there was a plan to move Dublin Port to Bremore and a discussion began on possiblity of a second Dublin City airport so I posted it as a discussion aid. No ports were harmed in the making of this map!

drdeadlift

Delancey wrote: »

Why is is that seemingly almost everyone in this country believes the panacea for their regions economic woes is to build an airport ?
There are way too many airports as it is - we have built airports when perhaps the money might have been better spent on the lousy roads.

As pointed out - London City and Belfast City airports are much more convenient to their respective city centres than either Weston or Baldonnell and in the case of London we should not forget that city is probably the biggest financial centre in the world - we have the IFSC.

Most of the government are avid plane spotters?

drdeadlift

rf4c wrote: »

A P.S. for Alan

UNESCO were cosulted on Bull Island, visited here, studied it and
gave us approval.

They're used to coping with cases like this one.
There are several such cases of protected sites near airports
and were agreed to many procedures regarding traffic patterns
to live in harmony with Bull Island.

We dont need another airport if we did need one we wouldnt be building it.


How about saint anns park,east west runway..would be interesting seeing the amount of planning objections from the locals

Tenger

drdeadlift wrote: »

We dont need another airport if we did need one we wouldnt be building it.....

I think the point was that we DID need another airport in the 1990's but that this DCY plan was blocked so there was long delay and then finally we got T2 too late,just as the traffic figures start to drop.....

drdeadlift

Tenger wrote: »

I did the point was that we DID need another airport in the 1990's but this DCY plan was blocked so there was long delay and finally we got T2 too late,just as the traffic figures start to drop.....

Well better to have a quiet terminal than a quiet airport.

Victor

Tenger wrote: »

I think the point was that we DID need another airport in the 1990's

No we didn't. We needed improved connectivity (Hi Aircoach!) and eventually additional terminal facilities.

BrianD

rf4c wrote: »

Brian,
Could you explain your expertise in making these comments.

1) The airport was designed to the ICAO criteria and approved by the Department for STOL operations.

2) Aer Rianta also took an interest because at the time, one of their directors commented to me that Dublin Airport was "bursting at the seams".

3) Dublin to London was at the time, the worlds busiest air route.

4) Our research showed that over 70% of business travellers to London
lived on the south side of Dublin, along the Dart belt.

5) We were inspected by the ICAO and the site was deemed to be the only site possible in Dublin, and in their words " a perfect complement to Dublin Airport" both commercially and operationally.

6) In the space of only meetings with financiers, they fell over themselves to give us 100% of the money.

7) A very large European financial institution whom the government were trying to get into the IFSC made it a condition that the airport would be built before they would agree to come. The airport wasn't buit, they didn't come!

8) Three airlines signed up as soon as we received approval.
There was also a parallel project to establish a new Dublin City Airways, along the llines of the Cityjet model.
All in all the project was destined to create 1200 jobs during construction and 560 jobs when operational

Brian, could you back up your comments with support and tell us your basis of credibility.

Where do I need expertise to comment on this? Any informed person will come to the same conclusion If was a crock of an idea. What credibility do you require to tell it's a crock? Not only that, I completely disbelieve your point 7 unless you name that company - where else in Europe was this company getting out of an office an onto a plane.

"our research" - by who?
"Aer Rianta" took an interest? Odd that given that there not keen on any private sector developments at Dublin that would have helped them when they were bursting at the seams.
Dublin-London at the time was one of the worlds busiest routes. It was a competitive route. Was the airport reliant on a single route? How's Dublin-London these days? Don't forget that we Irish have a habit of exageration - we always seem to have the busiest something in the world. Ryanair operated at a loss till 91 and had to be restructured.

Three airlines? That would keep things ticking over of course.

Something tells me that this airport would be a car park by now or being bailed out by the taxpayer.

Crock. As I said, both you (if an investor) and more than likely the taxpayer had a lucky break.

There is no demand for a second airport in Dublin and if somebody wants to open a new one let it come completely from the private sector purse without a cent of public money in any shape or form. Any takers?

DOCARCH

The idea of Dublin docklands airport (or any second airport to the NE of the city) seems like lunacy, considering the airport would be almost at the mouth of the Dublin Port Tunnel which brings you to Dublin Airport on a couple of minutes!

lintdrummer

DOCARCH wrote: »

The idea of Dublin docklands airport (or any second airport to the NE of the city) seems like lunacy, considering the airport would be almost at the mouth of the Dublin Port Tunnel which brings you to Dublin Airport on a couple of minutes!

These suggestions were made in the 80's, long before the port tunnel was a twinkle in Bertie's eye.

Isn't the tunnel a rip off too? €10 one way. Rather pay the fiver for the 747 from Bus Áras which uses the tunnel anyway!

DOCARCH

lintdrummer wrote: »

Isn't the tunnel a rip off too? €10 one way. Rather pay the fiver for the 747 from Bus Áras which uses the tunnel anyway!

Depends what time you travel at. At some times it's down to E3.

Tunnel would have been planned probably sice '70s. Like everything else in this country, takes a long a long time for big projects to come to fruition!

Magnos

ok bit of advice needed please. is it tricky to go from heuston airport to dublin airport and back? how much does that cost? thanks

Delancey

Magnos wrote: »

ok bit of advice needed please. is it tricky to go from heuston airport to dublin airport and back? how much does that cost? thanks

You mean Heuston Rail Station ? Take the LUAS from there to Store Street and from Busaras take the Airport Flyer bus which I think leaves every 15 minutes.

Victor

You can get Dublin Bus Airlink from Heuston Station (bus stop at Luas stop) direct to the airport. http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/7471/

Fares - Adult €6.00 Child €3.00. Most Dublin Bus pre-paid tickets are valid on Airlink.

Delancey wrote: »

You mean Heuston Rail Station ? Take the LUAS from there to Store Street and from Busaras take the Airport Flyer bus which I think leaves every 15 minutes.

What is this "Airport Flyer"?

Victor

rf4c wrote: »

It didn't happen because of a predatory move on the land by some property speculators who were more concerned with their own greed than the provision
of a major transport development for Dublin, and a lot of jobs to one of the poorest areas of the city.

So instead of providing hundreds of jobs in a small airport, they provided thousands of jobs in a business park?

Delancey

Victor wrote: »

What is this "Airport Flyer"?

Thought it was the name for the regular airport shuttle from Busaras - perhaps I'm wrong though

Lapin

The controversial Glass Bottle Site in Ringsend could be put to good use at last.

Plenty of room there for a terminal and an apron capable of housing 10 - 12 aircraft.

A runway (similar in length to Belfast City) could be accommodated with land reclaimed from the sea beyond Poolbeg.

There is also potential to expand along the northern edge of the runway for hangarage and long term aircraft parking.

The terminal would be located less than 3 km from Stephen's Green and just 800 metres from Lansdowne Rd. DART Station.

How about it ? D4 Airport !