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Where do you do your gun training?
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Unfotunatly live and blank ammo do get mixed up and this has happened in the past. Have a look at this Dail question from 2001.
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0545/D.0545.200112040007.html0 -
No, it isn't.
Good counter argument there. Case closed eh?Leaving aside the somewhat humourous take that maybe if they could shoot straight you wouldn't see too many innocent bystanders shot,
That's a preposterous argument.there's the minor point that the eejit is suggesting that we restrict travel of our citizens to a foreign country within the EU on the grounds that they might engage in something perfectly legal there.
Eh... nowhere did Mitchell suggest any restriction on freedom of movement....... Which is a constitutional right in Ireland.Care to suggest how you could legislate to stop that? Or are we going to invade the Czech Republic and change their legislation to make it illegal to have firing ranges there to allow tourists to shoot?
Here's a good start:Mr Mitchell has asked the Council to amend the directive to include an obligation on the part of firing range owners to keep a register of customers that would be available to police on demand.
Of course, to take it a step further; a common European legislation in regard to firing ranges, prohibiting such training.0 -
Slingshots are actually the way forward peeps.0
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Or Brandon Lee's death for that matter.guinnessdrinker wrote: »Unfotunatly live and blank ammo do get mixed up and this has happened in the past. Have a look at this Dail question from 2001.
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0545/D.0545.200112040007.html0 -
That's a preposterous argument.
Install sense of humour module. However, it actually does make sense and has been commented on by US law enforcement in the past: If gangbangers are going to be intent on shooting each othe anyway, if they would be good enough to confine their fire to only the intended target, third-party casualties which are not that uncommon would be greatly reduced.Eh... nowhere did Mitchell suggest any restriction on freedom of movement....... Which is a constitutional right in Ireland.
It's a restriction on the freedom of movement of goods and services in that it adds extra conditions.Of course, to take it a step further; a common European legislation in regard to firing ranges, prohibiting such training.
Why? People might want such training. And in some Eastern European countries, particularly those with militia-style militaries, they might actually need it.
The US experience, where such courses are easily available, indicates that criminals tend not to bother themselves attending anyway. Very rarely have I ever seen footage of a criminal using an approved draw technique, stance, or tactical movement. (Actually, I can't think of any offhand that I've even heard of, with exception of one bloke about six months ago, who was taught by the Army, not a private course)
NTM0 -
The Al Lad wrote: »there's a great place in tallaght to do gun training, its called Jobstown
I thought it was called NoJobstown?0 -
Yes, several years ago when the supreme court ruled that it was not constitutional to prevent women travelling abroad on the basis that they might get an abortion in the UK. Different application, same principle - you cannot restrict the travel rights of a citizen on the grounds that they might engage in activities outside of this jurisdiction which would be illegal here but legal there.Good counter argument there. Case closed eh?
It's not an argument at all, it's humour. Hence the reason for saying it was humour. Just in case someone might think I was being serious. Sadly, I forgot to put that bit in red bold blinking 40-point type. My mistake, obviously.That's a preposterous argument.
Indeed. All he did was say people were going from here to there to engage in firearms training for the purpose of abusing illegally held firearms here in criminal activities, and that that had to be stopped. Which obviously means we're going to invade the Czech Republic to put a stop to it :rolleyes:Eh... nowhere did Mitchell suggest any restriction on freedom of movement.
It's not a good start. It's not even a start. It's the law in most EU states, and it does feck all good, because it means the information is in some book, somewhere in the EU, in some language - which means it is of almost zero use to any police officer anywhere in the EU, both before and after a crime involving the criminal abuse of firearms. If it's before, then the information is not only practically impossible to find, it requires the police to actively seek it out. Any system requiring the range to seek the police would be unworkable because of the infrastructure you'd have to put in place. If it's after the crime, guess what? Someone committed an act of armed robbery or assault or murder, and you don't need to be messing about proving they trained first, you need to be arresting them for armed robbery or assault or murder.Here's a good start
It's the same as all Gay Mitchell ideas - it's plain daft and doesn't stand up to a minute's logical thought.
Yeah, there's an idea - let's ban the training in firearms use. Who cares if firearms have to be used on a daily basis by farmers, hunters, target shooters and others, and the sort of people who you're trying to stop will simply walk out into a field in the middle of the bog somewhere and shoot at tin cans on their own?Of course, to take it a step further; a common European legislation in regard to firing ranges, prohibiting such training.
:rolleyes:
Seriously, do you not think if writing in a book somewhere would stop armed crime, that we wouldn't be buying better pens instead of MP7 sub-machine pistols with armour piercing bullets for the ERU or ten thousand SiG-Sauer 9mm pistols for the rest of the Gardai?
Look, you want to stop armed crime, fund and train the Gardai to enforce existing laws. Until you do that, you're just faffing about.0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »Install sense of humour module. However, it actually does make sense and has been commented on by US law enforcement in the past: If gangbangers are going to be intent on shooting each othe anyway, if they would be good enough to confine their fire to only the intended target, third-party casualties which are not that uncommon would be greatly reduced.
That's a preposterous argument.Manic Moran wrote: »It's a restriction on the freedom of movement of goods and services in that it adds extra conditions.
It's not a restriction on travel, as was Sparks' point. In terms of being a restriction on goods and services, you could apply your logic to the restriction on Ireland importing cannabis and all other kinds of drugs into Ireland from Amsterdam. My point here is that restrictions are necessary in society. Law = restrictions.Manic Moran wrote: »Why? People might want such training. And in some Eastern European countries, particularly those with militia-style militaries, they might actually need it.
They may want it, but that doesn't mean it serves the public interest for them to receive it.Manic Moran wrote: »The US experience, where such courses are easily available, indicates that criminals tend not to bother themselves attending anyway. Very rarely have I ever seen footage of a criminal using an approved draw technique, stance, or tactical movement.
Yes, but in Ireland, known criminal gangs are heading over to make them more lethal, and to learn tactics employed by agencies such as the ERU. Indeed, there was a report in the paper today on this very thing.sparks wrote:Yes, several years ago when the supreme court ruled that it was not constitutional to prevent women travelling abroad on the basis that they might get an abortion in the UK. Different application, same principle - you cannot restrict the travel rights of a citizen on the grounds that they might engage in activities outside of this jurisdiction which would be illegal here but legal there.
Again, nobody is even hinting at restricting anyones right to travel from Ireland.sparks wrote:It's not an argument at all, it's humour. Hence the reason for saying it was humour. Just in case someone might think I was being serious. Sadly, I forgot to put that bit in red bold blinking 40-point type. My mistake, obviously.
That was humour? Ah ok, I didn't recognise it as such.sparks wrote:It's the law in most EU states, and it does feck all good, because it means the information is in some book, somewhere in the EU, in some language - which means it is of almost zero use to any police officer anywhere in the EU, both before and after a crime involving the criminal abuse of firearms. If it's before, then the information is not only practically impossible to find, it requires the police to actively seek it out. Any system requiring the range to seek the police would be unworkable because of the infrastructure you'd have to put in place. If it's after the crime, guess what? Someone committed an act of armed robbery or assault or murder, and you don't need to be messing about proving they trained first, you need to be arresting them for armed robbery or assault or murder.
The system would not be unworkable, since it would logically consist of a central database, with a small liason office in each country which could process requests from the register. Even if the system was not proactive, then it would not be useless since the information could still be of benefit to the prosecution in a criminal trial.sparks wrote:Yeah, there's an idea - let's ban the training in firearms use. Who cares if firearms have to be used on a daily basis by farmers, hunters, target shooters and others, and the sort of people who you're trying to stop will simply walk out into a field in the middle of the bog somewhere and shoot at tin cans on their own?
Farmers and hunters don't need tactical training on use of automatic weapons. This does not threaten the traditional shooting range by any means. It's a sensible restriction which should be brought into place - indeed, Czech Republic should ban such things altogether.sparks wrote:Look, you want to stop armed crime, fund and train the Gardai to enforce existing laws. Until you do that, you're just faffing about.
That's a very simplistic view on armed crime you have there. What about our customs problems allowing vast amounts of drugs to enter Ireland? Public demand for cocaine? The myriad of other social problems which lead to gun crime? Prison resources/policies? Judiciary? Legislation? Political will?
Guards have one of the longest (the longest?) training times in the world - you support more training to enforce existing legislation? You need to look more deeply into the root causes of such crime, existing laws can only do so much - although I do believe there should be more Gardaí.0 -
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That's a preposterous argument.
More cynical, than preposterous. Obviously nobody's suggesting that we should take gangsters out and teach them the finer points of marksmanship to aid them in the carrying out of murder, though sometimes you are drawn to wondering how many third-parties wouldn't have been hit had the shooter the vaguest idea of the principles involved in hitting a target. It's called black humour.you could apply your logic to the restriction on Ireland importing cannabis and all other kinds of drugs into Ireland from Amsterdam. My point here is that restrictions are necessary in society. Law = restrictions.
And there are those who would argue that the drug restriction is equally pointless. However, the use of drugs seems to have a far greater negative effect on society as a direct result of their use: Whether I go shooting has absolutely no knock-on effect on anything other than on the industries involved in making targets and ammunition.They may want it, but that doesn't mean it serves the public interest for them to receive it.
Doesn't mean it doesn't, either. Where's the public interest in doing high-speed driver's training courses down at Mondello Park? All the better to teach getaway drivers on how to avoid the Gardai, no? Heaven forbid it should actually teach car control to citizens. One must also note that the Czechs probably have criminals of their own (who in all likelihood are better armed anyway), and the Czech authorities don't seem to have a problem with these ranges.Yes, but in Ireland, known criminal gangs are heading over to make them more lethal, and to learn tactics employed by agencies such as the ERU. Indeed, there was a report in the paper today on this very thing.
If people going on courses in the Czech Republic on their own time gets them to such a standard that the ERU cannot deal with them, I would have serious questions as to the standard of training the ERU conducts.The system would not be unworkable, since it would logically consist of a central database, with a small liason office in each country which could process requests from the register. Even if the system was not proactive, then it would not be useless since the information could still be of benefit to the prosecution in a criminal trial.
"We have evidence that the Accused did, with malice aforethought, attend a perfectly legal course in practical marksmanship!" I can see that being useful.
These registries have a very nasty tendancy of being a lot of money for very little use. The Canadian Firearms Registry comes to mind.Farmers and hunters don't need tactical training on use of automatic weapons. This does not threaten the traditional shooting range by any means. It's a sensible restriction which should be brought into place - indeed, Czech Republic should ban such things altogether.
The Czech Republic, as with most countries in Europe, has a tradition of all citizens being capable of acting in their common defense by having some idea of how to use military grade firearms. You as an Irishman may feel that on your isolated island nation there is little need for such, but who are you to tell other countries with long histories of combat occurring on their soil that their concepts are wrong? They might be just as right to say that Irish people are fools for having such a defenseless population.
NTM0 -
That's not how Irish law works. We prohibit things shown to be harmful; everything not mentioned is fair game. Which means you have a duty to prove something's harmful before banning it. No-one has done that in this case.They may want it, but that doesn't mean it serves the public interest for them to receive it.
Was there? Grand so, arrest them. What, the paper gave no names or proof? Well, don't be silly, you obviously need no checks and balances on your exercise of legislative power, arrest them anyway! To heck with those who say that paper never refused ink and that if it bleeds it leads!Yes, but in Ireland, known criminal gangs are heading over to make them more lethal, and to learn tactics employed by agencies such as the ERU. Indeed, there was a report in the paper today on this very thing.
Except Gay Mitchell, whose statements can only logically mean one of two things - imposing laws on the Czech Republic or imposing laws on Ireland.Again, nobody is even hinting at restricting anyones right to travel from Ireland.
That's okay, everyone else did.That was humour? Ah ok, I didn't recognise it as such.
Oh, is that all it would consist of? Because you just described Pulse. And e-voting. And every other large, failed international IT system ever attempted. And did you consider things like the right to privacy and data protection and that sort of thing? You're demanding an EU-wide, secure, networked database with access from every police station in the EU (by the way, no Garda station currently has internet access...), which integrates with the computer systems of every police force in the EU (including the ones without computers), and caters for users in a dozen different languages. Speaking as a computer engineer for a moment, allow me to reassure you that that is not only a nontrivial task, it's one that we have never successfully managed to do, ever.The system would not be unworkable, since it would logically consist of a central database, with a small liason office in each country which could process requests from the register.
How, exactly? Is learning to shoot more of a crime than actually shooting someone? "Yes, your honour, we know the defendant actually shot the victim twice in the stomach in broad daylight in front of the victim's family as they walked past the pearse street garda station talking to the commissioner; but we're charging him with having gone to the Czech Republic and spending a whole 3 hours on a firing range there learning to become a deadly marksman"Even if the system was not proactive, then it would not be useless since the information could still be of benefit to the prosecution in a criminal trial.
No, they don't - but they do need to train to use firearms safely. How do you plan to regulate for this? Or are you saying that it's another small, simple task like your EU-wide police database?Farmers and hunters don't need tactical training on use of automatic weapons.
You do realise a "traditional shooting range" is a field with a hill at one end and that it doesn't know the difference between a black powder musket, an MP5 and a hole in the ground, right?This does not threaten the traditional shooting range by any means.
It's not sensible, it's not workable, it's not informed or thought through, and cynically, why the hell should the Czechs ban something that doesn't harm them but instead earns them money?It's a sensible restriction which should be brought into place - indeed, Czech Republic should ban such things altogether.
Forgive my mirth, but that was rather a case of having your table manners criticised by Idie Amin...That's a very simplistic view on armed crime you have there.
If it's just social problems that lead to gun crime, why do you think the simplistic measure of banning firing ranges in the Czech Republic will fix the gun crime problem in Dublin?The myriad of other social problems which lead to gun crime?
Given that right now Gardai get little to no training in firearms legislation, and are facing a hundred or so cases in the High Court for breaking the Firearms Acts themselves (and have faced hundreds more in the past, all of which they lost in court or capitulated to on the steps), yes, I would. I would demand it as a necessity.Guards have one of the longest (the longest?) training times in the world - you support more training to enforce existing legislation?0 -
but that was rather a case of having your table manners criticised by Idie Amin...
Hang on.. Just because he was a ruthless dictator does not mean that he didn't know which fork to use for the fish.
NTM0
i was in vietnam last febuary and a the cu chi tunnels visitors site you have a choice between a big aray of gun)
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