Zionism

Playboy

Why would you want to go to Israel? It's a shameful place .. think twice before you put money into the hands of those racist fanatics. Also you will have problems traveling in other middle eastern countries if you have an Israeli stamp on your passport.

5times

Playboy wrote: »

Why would you want to go to Israel? It's a shameful place .. think twice before you put money into the hands of those racist fanatics. Also you will have problems traveling in other middle eastern countries if you have an Israeli stamp on your passport.

What, like the time you blew up all those innocent people with your IRA bombs? That's ridiculous to tar everyone in that country, or any country with the same brush. It's attitudes like this that fuel racism.

Playboy

5times wrote: »

What, like the time you blew up all those innocent people with your IRA bombs? That's ridiculous to tar everyone in that country, or any country with the same brush. It's attitudes like this that fuel racism.

eh .. what are you on about? I think it's fair to tar every zionist with the same brush. It is an undemocratic apartheid regime and it justifies its existence by referencing the bible. Any Israeli, Zionist, Jew, Christian, that supports the existence of Israeli is part of a racist, oppresive and fanatical regime. Do some reading and it might open up your eyes.

http://www.newint.org/features/special/2007/08/20/chomsky/

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011 - Long Version

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html - Edited version

wet-paint

Riiiiight.

Playboy

wet-paint wrote: »

Riiiiight.

Riiiiight .. what?? Do you do +1 comments just to increase your post count? Or .. do you have something intelligent to say? :rolleyes:

wet-paint

I have many intelligible things to say on various umportant topics.
Or maybe I'm chuckling at the fact that you want to belittle the OP's attempt to learn a foreign language because you don't like the people who speak it.

Redhairedguy

I'm with wet-paint on this one.

Cop the hell on Playboy. Whatever reason sunshine2007 has for going to Israel is their own. They don't need slanderous crap from narrow minded people.

Learn your facts before you spout your shíte!

po0k

Playboy, shut-up until you can moderate your views with knowledge.

Zionist influence in government policy does not a country of zionists make.

Playboy

wet-paint wrote: »

I have many intelligible things to say on various umportant topics.
Or maybe I'm chuckling at the fact that you want to belittle the OP's attempt to learn a foreign language because you don't like the people who speak it.

I am not belittleing the OP's attempt to learn a foreign language. In my second post I posted a link to the Rosetta stone Hebrew site where the OP could find software to teach themselves the language. I am advising the OP that going on holiday to Israel is an unethical thing to do. I would have done the same if he/she was going to South Africa when Mandela was in Jail and Apartheid was in full swing.

I have no problem with people who speak Hebrew nor have I got a problem with Jews. What I do have a problem with is the state of Israel and if the enlightened posters on this board dont have a problem with Israel then I have to assume that ye dont know your history or ye dont read the papers. Take a trip to the politics forum and ask people what they think of Israel and I'm sure that you will find the consensus quite unanimous.

Playboy

Redhairedguy wrote: »

I'm with wet-paint on this one.

Cop the hell on Playboy. Whatever reason sunshine2007 has for going to Israel is their own. They don't need slanderous crap from narrow minded people.

Learn your facts before you spout your shíte!

eh thanks for the advice :rolleyes:. Now how about you go pick up a book before you decide to comment on a situation you know nothing about. You gotta love people who jump into an argument when they havent a clue about any of the facts.

When you do know something about middle eastern politics and history then come back to me and we can have a discussion about the facts.

Playboy

SyxPak wrote: »

Playboy, shut-up until you can moderate your views with knowledge.

Zionist influence in government policy does not a country of zionists make.

Nice manners you got there SyxPak especially for a mod. My views are moderated with about 20 or so books on the subject, a girlfriend who has a masters in middle eastern politics and my own 3 years of political science in university.

Do you know what Zionism is? Anyone living in Israel and supporting the existence of Israel is by default a Zionist. Have a look;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Karl Hungus

This thread has been split from one on the Galway City forum, just in case anyone finds it confusing.

Tar.Aldarion

Don't go there because you put money in the hands of bad people...
ah...

Morlar

Karl Hungus wrote: »

This thread has been split from one on the Galway City forum, just in case anyone finds it confusing.

Gracias !

Re the op - not all israeils are zionists some are just regular people - housewives and busdrivers and such. Not all zionist israelis are evil people for that matter either. Its prefectly possible to do some reading on the subject AND not agree with you.

FatherTed

Playboy is right. Damn it, I ain't traveling back to Ireland because the Irish people have repeatedly voted in a crook as their leader. Come to think of it, I better cancel my trip to London because I don't agree with the monarchy.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

not all israeils are zionists

Exactly. There are plenty of Israeli's who disapprove of their governments actions, B'Tselem for example.

Passent.Habek

Wikipedia wrote:

Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish People in the Land of Israel.

So if this is a defintion of Zionism .. How can you live in the country, be a citizen but not be a Zionist. If you are not a Zionist then what are you doing living there? Why would you be living in a country that was only formed 59 years ago if you didnt think that country has a right to exist?

djpbarry

Passent.Habek wrote: »

If you are not a Zionist then what are you doing living there? Why would you be living in a country that was only formed 59 years ago if you didnt think that country has a right to exist?

Perhaps you were born there?

milod

Playboy wrote: »

Nice manners you got there SyxPak especially for a mod. My views are moderated with about 20 or so books on the subject, a girlfriend who has a masters in middle eastern politics and my own 3 years of political science in university.

Do you know what Zionism is? Anyone living in Israel and supporting the existence of Israel is by default a Zionist. Have a look;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Man they're some lofty credentials... some books and of course Wikipedia (which cannot be wrong!), your degree, and of course your girlfriends masters degree - well who would dare question your authoritative viewpoint?!

Tell me, have you ever actually been there? met and talked with any of the people who live there? or do you think that your indisputable wall of theory gives you the right to judge an entire people? BTW, I'm an atheist and have no truck with Judaism, but I have been there and could tell you more about the place than you'll learn from a book.

Noam (keep bombing me while I light this candle for you) Chomsky is a learned man indeed, but has adopted a purist and intellectual stance against Israel that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. It's there already, you can't unf*ck a virgin, so lets take a pragmatic view on how to make things better.

Also try to remember that most of Israel replaced a relatively barren piece of desert. There are obvious issues around Jerusalem etc Most of the people who live there were born there, regardless of migration to the 'homeland' so it's hardly surprising that they're reluctant to give it up. The people are there now so instead of arguing principle we should try to reach an accommodation.

So feel free to blame Israel for the issues the west has with Islam, if that makes you feel better. However, obsessing about Israel ignores some of the more important problems in that region - who would you prefer had the nukes for example? My vote is with Israel, in that at least their holy book doesn't advocate world domination by holy war...

djpbarry

milod wrote: »

It's there already, you can't unf*ck a virgin, so lets take a pragmatic view on how to make things better.

A rather eloquent description of the situation I must say, but I think it reflects most (rational) people's viewpoint.

milod wrote: »

who would you prefer had the nukes for example?

Nobody?

Passent.Habek

milod wrote: »

Man they're some lofty credentials... some books and of course Wikipedia (which cannot be wrong!), your degree, and of course your girlfriends masters degree - well who would dare question your authoritative viewpoint?!

I believe his response was a retort to another posters claim that he did not know the facts. He wasnt claiming authoritative knowledge of the subject.

milod wrote:

Tell me, have you ever actually been there? met and talked with any of the people who live there? or do you think that your indisputable wall of theory gives you the right to judge an entire people? BTW, I'm an atheist and have no truck with Judaism, but I have been there and could tell you more about the place than you'll learn from a book.

clap clap .. well done! You have been to Israel and therefore you have met all the great people and know how to fix all the problems :rolleyes:

It's easy to be a visitor .. how about you go live in the west bank or the Gaza Strip and then come talk to me about Israel. Or how about you go to Egypt or any of the neighbouring countries and live in some of the refugee camps. I am Egyptian and I lived in the region all my life so forgive me If I dont take much heed of your visit or two.

In your post you confuse two simple things. It's a tactic used repeatedly by Zionists .. that if you have a problem with Israel then you are by default anti semetic (which is ridiculous because Arabs are a Semitic People too) or some kind of Nazi loving Revisionist Jew hater. Anti Israel does not mean anti Jew. There were many jews living in Palestine that were also displaced by Israel. And if you check the figures then you will probably find that Israel is mainly a secular country with only about 5% of then population being religious.

The CORE issues of the Palestinian-Israeli are the collective DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING (compulsory population transfer to achieve political objectives) of the Palestinian people for the past five decades. Forgive me if I, Playboy and many others have a problem with this. It is an Apartheid regime and if you cant see or understand that then I suggest you do some reading before you come on here boasting about your holiday. Jusy like South Africa was a shameful place, so is Israel. Did you have a problem with South Africa when Apartheid was alive and kicking? Did you judge the white population for the actions of their elected government?

milod wrote:

Noam (keep bombing me while I light this candle for you) Chomsky is a learned man indeed, but has adopted a purist and intellectual stance against Israel that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. It's there already, you can't unf*ck a virgin, so lets take a pragmatic view on how to make things better.

You do know Chomsky was born into a Jewish family dont you? Hmmm a Jew having problem with Israel ... and what about Norman Finkelstein .. another Jew who has a problem with Israel. And guess what both have endured smear campaigns by Zionists because they dared to criticize.

The reality of the situation as Chomsky and Finkelstein and many others are aware is that you have an undemocratic, apartheid, terrorist state who needs to be stopped. Did you know that a Jew cannot marry a non-Jewish Arab in Israel? Do you know why? Maybe they afraid of the democratic process?

Give me a break .. if you support Israel then you are supporting a racist and oppresive regime who kills and displaces innocent civilians. on your little holiday you were shown an illusion .. an illusion that Israel likes to feed the west .. that its this haven of democracy surrounded by crazy arabs who keep blowing themsleves up. It's not too long ago that the Irish were willing to die in similar but probably not as severe circumstances. Do you think the Irish independance fighters were terrorists?

milod wrote:

Also try to remember that most of Israel replaced a relatively barren piece of desert. There are obvious issues around Jerusalem etc Most of the people who live there were born there, regardless of migration to the 'homeland' so it's hardly surprising that they're reluctant to give it up. The people are there now so instead of arguing principle we should try to reach an accommodation.

Are you for real? Yes they moved in and killed and displaced your ancestors and you should just shut the f**k up and get on with it because it's done now. Just put yourself in a similar situation and see what you would do.

milod wrote:

So feel free to blame Israel for the issues the west has with Islam, if that makes you feel better. However, obsessing about Israel ignores some of the more important problems in that region - who would you prefer had the nukes for example? My vote is with Israel, in that at least their holy book doesn't advocate world domination by holy war...

where did anyone blame Israel for issues the west has with Islam? I would prefer if neither had nukes. If you read that Havard paper that Playboy posted then you wouldnt feel too confident about Israel who have gone behind the US's back selling secrets to the Russians and Chinese.

Dave!

OP should we boycott the US or the UK too? After all Israel wouldn't be around without their support.

And I guess any countries who trade with Israel or sells them arms should be avoided also, since they are helping to sustain the terrorist state.

Pete4779

5times wrote: »

What, like the time you blew up all those innocent people with your IRA bombs? That's ridiculous to tar everyone in that country, or any country with the same brush. It's attitudes like this that fuel racism.

Irish Government was not and never was the IRA and was not responsible for IRA actions.

Israeli government was and is the command of the Israeli Defence Forces and therfore is responsible for their actions.

Likewise the George Bush administration and RUmsfeld have been held accountable for the actions of the US army.

IRA is not the Irish Defence Forces.

Sand

The CORE issues of the Palestinian-Israeli are the collective DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING (compulsory population transfer to achieve political objectives) of the Palestinian people for the past five decades.

Some might disagree with that analysis. Some might say the core issue was the refusal of the surrounding Arab states to accept the existence of Israel or the borders contained within the 1947 UN plan [Creation of Israel, 2 state solution, Jeruselam under interntional/UN control - sounds like the basis for a modern deal doesnt it?]. The plan was accepted by the proto-Israel, was rejected by the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab states.

They dreamed then, as they do now [Hamas...] of a total annialation of Israel, driving the Jews back into the sea.

They consistently opted for the violent solution to their problem over the past 6 decades, but discovered to their dismay that Israel was better at violence than they were. Hence they were defeated, and their land occupied [ Though happily they at least werent driven into the sea as the Jews would have been if they hadnt been as proficient at violence as they proved] and it will continue to be occupied until they agree to accept the existence of Israel and reach a peaceful accomadation with Israel.

I supported the withdrawal from the Gaza strip, but the approach of withdrawal from the occupied territory has been discredited given that the unoccupied territory was simply used to launch attacks directly on Israel civillians. Its clear from Gaza that land for peace doesnt work.

Oh, and I should point out that I am not a Zionist of any stripe. But the facts are clear - the Arabs rejected prior peace deals, they launched a series of wars and hostilities against Israel - and they lost. End of. Israel wants security more than anything else, and its security is best served by a sustainable peace and trade with its neighbours. When their neighbours are willing to make peace Im fairly sure they will be able to reach a deal with some nudges and pushes from the US, EU and maybe even China/Russia. In the meantime Israel will continue to use its military to protect itself from those who wish to destroy it. Its under siege, and its not surprising they have a siege mentality.

I feel sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, but it is a plight of their own making, a war that they declared - though they have been cruelly manipulated by their Arab "backers" also. However, I will never feel "understand" terrorism carried out against Israeli civillians. Soldiers are one thing, a war is a war - but luring a young boy out to a cave and beating his face in with a rock because he is Jewish is simply inhuman, and cant be dressed up by ignoring it and focusing only on Israeli actions with a blinkered, prejudiced, narrow and edited version of events where the Palestinians are long suffering victims, and the Israelis evil racist jack booted thugs. Even if its by the honoured Noam Chomsky.

Ekancone

Playboy wrote: »

Nice manners you got there SyxPak especially for a mod. My views are moderated with about 20 or so books on the subject, a girlfriend who has a masters in middle eastern politics and my own 3 years of political science in university.

Do you know what Zionism is? Anyone living in Israel and supporting the existence of Israel is by default a Zionist. Have a look;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Have any of these books been pro-Israel in their argument?

Ekancone

Passent.Habek wrote: »

It's not too long ago that the Irish were willing to die in similar but probably not as severe circumstances. Do you think the Irish independance fighters were terrorists?

So you would agree that the Irish people had the right to self-determination. Why not the Jewish people?

Morlar

daithifleming wrote: »

So you would agree that the Irish people had the right to self-determination. Why not the Jewish people?

How about the palestinians ?

Ekancone

Morlar wrote: »

How about the palestinians ?

Absolutely. If it is the will of the people then i think they should have that right, whoever they are. But if you ask me, this whole mess stems from the Arab leadership doing whatever they can to obstruct matters early in the last century and the subsequent attacks on Israelis following the division of the land by the British. From what i have read, the Jewish leadership were being quite accomodating in the early talks while all the Arab leadership spoke of was defeating the Jewish on the battlefield. Considering their position at the time, you could hardly blame the Arab leadership for adopting that stance, considering they outnumbered the Jewish people, but the plan backfired and over the years further efforts to attack Israelis failed. When you look at the history of the early to mid-twentieth century, could you really blame Israel for adopting such an aggressive stance?

By the way, im not advocating nor defending Israels actions today. Nor do i defend the actions of terrorists/freedom fighters on the Palestinian side. There is blood on the hands of both people if you ask me. No one is justified in killing the innocent.

Passent.Habek

Sand wrote: »

Some might disagree with that analysis. Some might say the core issue was the refusal of the surrounding Arab states to accept the existence of Israel or the borders contained within the 1947 UN plan [Creation of Israel, 2 state solution, Jeruselam under interntional/UN control - sounds like the basis for a modern deal doesnt it?]. The plan was accepted by the proto-Israel, was rejected by the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab states.

And why should the surrounding Arab states or the Palestinians accept a 2 state solution? Again I ask the question .. would you accept it in Ireland? European Jews began an aggressive colonization policy in the late 19th century. They had one objective and that was to create a homeland for themselves in someone else's land by displacing the native population. They wanted an exclusive Jewish state. Now why should the Arabs or anyone else for that matter accept this? Should we just accept this injustice because as another poster so eloquently put it "you cant unf*ck a virgin"?

From the early days of Zionism with Herzl the Palestinian population have suffered injustice after injustice. I find it unbelievable that people still try and defend the existence of this so called country.

Sand wrote:

They dreamed then, as they do now [Hamas...] of a total annialation of Israel, driving the Jews back into the sea.

And wouldnt you? Am I missing something or did the Irish not spend the best part of a thousand years trying to drive the english back to where they came from? There are still problems in the North after hundreds of years .. the Israeli zionism problem is barely a hundred years old. Forgive the people of Palestine if the memeories are still pretty raw.

Sand wrote:

They consistently opted for the violent solution to their problem over the past 6 decades, but discovered to their dismay that Israel was better at violence than they were. Hence they were defeated, and their land occupied [ Though happily they at least werent driven into the sea as the Jews would have been if they hadnt been as proficient at violence as they proved] and it will continue to be occupied until they agree to accept the existence of Israel and reach a peaceful accomadation with Israel.

And what other realistic option did they have? Should they just accept a large part of their country just given away and be happy about? Are you mad? Just try and put yourself and your family in the same situation. And could you not use the words Jew and Israeli in the same context, it confuses a political issue with a religious.

I do agree though that the only solution does seem to be a two state solution but really do you believe that the Israeli's want one? I don't for a minute think that they do want one. They sabotage negotiations at every oppurtunity and they have a strong expansionist policy like we saw under Sharon and the Likud Party with their ideas of a Greater Israel.

Sand wrote:

Oh, and I should point out that I am not a Zionist of any stripe. But the facts are clear - the Arabs rejected prior peace deals, they launched a series of wars and hostilities against Israel - and they lost. End of. Israel wants security more than anything else, and its security is best served by a sustainable peace and trade with its neighbours. When their neighbours are willing to make peace Im fairly sure they will be able to reach a deal with some nudges and pushes from the US, EU and maybe even China/Russia. In the meantime Israel will continue to use its military to protect itself from those who wish to destroy it. Its under siege, and its not surprising they have a siege mentality.

The facts are clear lol. Well why dont you try and get your facts straight then? The Arabs had every right to reject every peace deal and they had the right to defend their land and to drive the occupiers into the sea. I really dont understand why people dont get this .. The occupation of Palestine by the Zionists was a calculated campaign of ethnic cleansing. The bribed, lobbied and fought tooth and nail to establish a homeland in someone else's country. They tried to remove the native population and are now systematically oppressing and killing the remanants of that population. The ratio of deaths in the conflict at the moment is something like 7 to 1. It's the Palestinians that under seige not the Israeli's .. if you go and visit the area you might be surprised at the quality of life the Israelis have while they under seige from the armies of Palestine :rolleyes:

Sand wrote:

I feel sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, but it is a plight of their own making, a war that they declared

A plight of their own making .. are you serious? A war they declared lol.

Here is a brief history of the conflict that is supposedly unbiased but actually overlooks a lot of Israeli transgressions.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

Read it and tell me that the Palestinians have only themselves to blame

Sand wrote:

though they have been cruelly manipulated by their Arab "backers" also. However, I will never feel "understand" terrorism carried out against Israeli civillians. Soldiers are one thing, a war is a war - but luring a young boy out to a cave and beating his face in with a rock because he is Jewish is simply inhuman, and cant be dressed up by ignoring it and focusing only on Israeli actions with a blinkered, prejudiced, narrow and edited version of events where the Palestinians are long suffering victims, and the Israelis evil racist jack booted thugs. Even if its by the honoured Noam Chomsky.

My God .. I'm not even going to start on the atrocities that the Israel's have carried out on the Palestinians .. there is no point if you have such a blinkered view of history and politics. Of all the atrocities that the Israelis commit on a daily basis and at a ratio of 7 to 1 you pick out an incident where the Palestinians, who are living in unbelievable impoverished conditions, are made to look like inhuman racists. These are a people who have nothing and have had everything taken away .. dispossesed from their lands, futures taken away, families murdered, living in poverty and disease and they are at a breaking point.

Passent.Habek

daithifleming wrote: »

Have any of these books been pro-Israel in their argument?

I dont think there is a truthful and ethical pro Israel argument. Anything that supports an Israeli position is propoganda. They dont have any justification for their state apart from the 'fact' that it is their divine homeland as it says in the bible :rolleyes:

Why dont you try and do a simple mental exercise .. imagine it was Ireland that the claimed was their ancestral homeland.

Passent.Habek

daithifleming wrote: »

So you would agree that the Irish people had the right to self-determination. Why not the Jewish people?

Everyone has the right to self determination as long as it doesnt oppress another people.

why not just try and justify the holocaust by saying that the Germans had a right to self determination. What a ridiculous statement.