Zionism

Playboy · 08-01-2008 2:15am #1

Why would you want to go to Israel? It's a shameful place .. think twice before you put money into the hands of those racist fanatics. Also you will have problems traveling in other middle eastern countries if you have an Israeli stamp on your passport.

5times · 08-01-2008 4:24am

Playboy wrote: »

Why would you want to go to Israel? It's a shameful place .. think twice before you put money into the hands of those racist fanatics. Also you will have problems traveling in other middle eastern countries if you have an Israeli stamp on your passport.

What, like the time you blew up all those innocent people with your IRA bombs? That's ridiculous to tar everyone in that country, or any country with the same brush. It's attitudes like this that fuel racism.

Playboy · 08-01-2008 2:42pm

5times wrote: »

What, like the time you blew up all those innocent people with your IRA bombs? That's ridiculous to tar everyone in that country, or any country with the same brush. It's attitudes like this that fuel racism.

eh .. what are you on about? I think it's fair to tar every zionist with the same brush. It is an undemocratic apartheid regime and it justifies its existence by referencing the bible. Any Israeli, Zionist, Jew, Christian, that supports the existence of Israeli is part of a racist, oppresive and fanatical regime. Do some reading and it might open up your eyes.

http://www.newint.org/features/special/2007/08/20/chomsky/

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011 - Long Version

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html - Edited version

wet-paint · 08-01-2008 2:51pm

Riiiiight.

Playboy · 08-01-2008 3:08pm

wet-paint wrote: »

Riiiiight.

Riiiiight .. what?? Do you do +1 comments just to increase your post count? Or .. do you have something intelligent to say? :rolleyes:

wet-paint · 08-01-2008 3:29pm

I have many intelligible things to say on various umportant topics.
Or maybe I'm chuckling at the fact that you want to belittle the OP's attempt to learn a foreign language because you don't like the people who speak it.

Redhairedguy · 08-01-2008 3:38pm

I'm with wet-paint on this one.

Cop the hell on Playboy. Whatever reason sunshine2007 has for going to Israel is their own. They don't need slanderous crap from narrow minded people.

Learn your facts before you spout your shíte!

po0k · 08-01-2008 3:38pm

Playboy, shut-up until you can moderate your views with knowledge.

Zionist influence in government policy does not a country of zionists make.

Playboy · 09-01-2008 3:25pm

wet-paint wrote: »

I have many intelligible things to say on various umportant topics.
Or maybe I'm chuckling at the fact that you want to belittle the OP's attempt to learn a foreign language because you don't like the people who speak it.

I am not belittleing the OP's attempt to learn a foreign language. In my second post I posted a link to the Rosetta stone Hebrew site where the OP could find software to teach themselves the language. I am advising the OP that going on holiday to Israel is an unethical thing to do. I would have done the same if he/she was going to South Africa when Mandela was in Jail and Apartheid was in full swing.

I have no problem with people who speak Hebrew nor have I got a problem with Jews. What I do have a problem with is the state of Israel and if the enlightened posters on this board dont have a problem with Israel then I have to assume that ye dont know your history or ye dont read the papers. Take a trip to the politics forum and ask people what they think of Israel and I'm sure that you will find the consensus quite unanimous.

Playboy · 09-01-2008 3:28pm

Redhairedguy wrote: »

I'm with wet-paint on this one.

Cop the hell on Playboy. Whatever reason sunshine2007 has for going to Israel is their own. They don't need slanderous crap from narrow minded people.

Learn your facts before you spout your shíte!

eh thanks for the advice :rolleyes:. Now how about you go pick up a book before you decide to comment on a situation you know nothing about. You gotta love people who jump into an argument when they havent a clue about any of the facts.

When you do know something about middle eastern politics and history then come back to me and we can have a discussion about the facts.

Playboy · 09-01-2008 3:32pm

SyxPak wrote: »

Playboy, shut-up until you can moderate your views with knowledge.

Zionist influence in government policy does not a country of zionists make.

Nice manners you got there SyxPak especially for a mod. My views are moderated with about 20 or so books on the subject, a girlfriend who has a masters in middle eastern politics and my own 3 years of political science in university.

Do you know what Zionism is? Anyone living in Israel and supporting the existence of Israel is by default a Zionist. Have a look;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Karl Hungus · 09-01-2008 3:38pm

This thread has been split from one on the Galway City forum, just in case anyone finds it confusing.

Tar.Aldarion · 09-01-2008 3:44pm

Don't go there because you put money in the hands of bad people...
ah...

Morlar · 09-01-2008 6:28pm

Karl Hungus wrote: »

This thread has been split from one on the Galway City forum, just in case anyone finds it confusing.

Gracias !

Re the op - not all israeils are zionists some are just regular people - housewives and busdrivers and such. Not all zionist israelis are evil people for that matter either. Its prefectly possible to do some reading on the subject AND not agree with you.

FatherTed · 09-01-2008 6:47pm

Playboy is right. Damn it, I ain't traveling back to Ireland because the Irish people have repeatedly voted in a crook as their leader. Come to think of it, I better cancel my trip to London because I don't agree with the monarchy.

djpbarry · 10-01-2008 4:33pm

Morlar wrote: »

not all israeils are zionists

Exactly. There are plenty of Israeli's who disapprove of their governments actions, B'Tselem for example.

Passent.Habek · 10-01-2008 4:59pm

Wikipedia wrote:

Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish People in the Land of Israel.

So if this is a defintion of Zionism .. How can you live in the country, be a citizen but not be a Zionist. If you are not a Zionist then what are you doing living there? Why would you be living in a country that was only formed 59 years ago if you didnt think that country has a right to exist?

djpbarry · 10-01-2008 8:52pm

Passent.Habek wrote: »

If you are not a Zionist then what are you doing living there? Why would you be living in a country that was only formed 59 years ago if you didnt think that country has a right to exist?

Perhaps you were born there?

milod · 11-01-2008 9:01am

Playboy wrote: »

Nice manners you got there SyxPak especially for a mod. My views are moderated with about 20 or so books on the subject, a girlfriend who has a masters in middle eastern politics and my own 3 years of political science in university.

Do you know what Zionism is? Anyone living in Israel and supporting the existence of Israel is by default a Zionist. Have a look;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Man they're some lofty credentials... some books and of course Wikipedia (which cannot be wrong!), your degree, and of course your girlfriends masters degree - well who would dare question your authoritative viewpoint?!

Tell me, have you ever actually been there? met and talked with any of the people who live there? or do you think that your indisputable wall of theory gives you the right to judge an entire people? BTW, I'm an atheist and have no truck with Judaism, but I have been there and could tell you more about the place than you'll learn from a book.

Noam (keep bombing me while I light this candle for you) Chomsky is a learned man indeed, but has adopted a purist and intellectual stance against Israel that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. It's there already, you can't unf*ck a virgin, so lets take a pragmatic view on how to make things better.

Also try to remember that most of Israel replaced a relatively barren piece of desert. There are obvious issues around Jerusalem etc Most of the people who live there were born there, regardless of migration to the 'homeland' so it's hardly surprising that they're reluctant to give it up. The people are there now so instead of arguing principle we should try to reach an accommodation.

So feel free to blame Israel for the issues the west has with Islam, if that makes you feel better. However, obsessing about Israel ignores some of the more important problems in that region - who would you prefer had the nukes for example? My vote is with Israel, in that at least their holy book doesn't advocate world domination by holy war...

djpbarry · 11-01-2008 11:37am

milod wrote: »

It's there already, you can't unf*ck a virgin, so lets take a pragmatic view on how to make things better.

A rather eloquent description of the situation I must say, but I think it reflects most (rational) people's viewpoint.

milod wrote: »

who would you prefer had the nukes for example?

Nobody?

Passent.Habek · 11-01-2008 3:19pm

milod wrote: »

Man they're some lofty credentials... some books and of course Wikipedia (which cannot be wrong!), your degree, and of course your girlfriends masters degree - well who would dare question your authoritative viewpoint?!

I believe his response was a retort to another posters claim that he did not know the facts. He wasnt claiming authoritative knowledge of the subject.

milod wrote:

Tell me, have you ever actually been there? met and talked with any of the people who live there? or do you think that your indisputable wall of theory gives you the right to judge an entire people? BTW, I'm an atheist and have no truck with Judaism, but I have been there and could tell you more about the place than you'll learn from a book.

clap clap .. well done! You have been to Israel and therefore you have met all the great people and know how to fix all the problems :rolleyes:

It's easy to be a visitor .. how about you go live in the west bank or the Gaza Strip and then come talk to me about Israel. Or how about you go to Egypt or any of the neighbouring countries and live in some of the refugee camps. I am Egyptian and I lived in the region all my life so forgive me If I dont take much heed of your visit or two.

In your post you confuse two simple things. It's a tactic used repeatedly by Zionists .. that if you have a problem with Israel then you are by default anti semetic (which is ridiculous because Arabs are a Semitic People too) or some kind of Nazi loving Revisionist Jew hater. Anti Israel does not mean anti Jew. There were many jews living in Palestine that were also displaced by Israel. And if you check the figures then you will probably find that Israel is mainly a secular country with only about 5% of then population being religious.

The CORE issues of the Palestinian-Israeli are the collective DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING (compulsory population transfer to achieve political objectives) of the Palestinian people for the past five decades. Forgive me if I, Playboy and many others have a problem with this. It is an Apartheid regime and if you cant see or understand that then I suggest you do some reading before you come on here boasting about your holiday. Jusy like South Africa was a shameful place, so is Israel. Did you have a problem with South Africa when Apartheid was alive and kicking? Did you judge the white population for the actions of their elected government?

milod wrote:

Noam (keep bombing me while I light this candle for you) Chomsky is a learned man indeed, but has adopted a purist and intellectual stance against Israel that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. It's there already, you can't unf*ck a virgin, so lets take a pragmatic view on how to make things better.

You do know Chomsky was born into a Jewish family dont you? Hmmm a Jew having problem with Israel ... and what about Norman Finkelstein .. another Jew who has a problem with Israel. And guess what both have endured smear campaigns by Zionists because they dared to criticize.

The reality of the situation as Chomsky and Finkelstein and many others are aware is that you have an undemocratic, apartheid, terrorist state who needs to be stopped. Did you know that a Jew cannot marry a non-Jewish Arab in Israel? Do you know why? Maybe they afraid of the democratic process?

Give me a break .. if you support Israel then you are supporting a racist and oppresive regime who kills and displaces innocent civilians. on your little holiday you were shown an illusion .. an illusion that Israel likes to feed the west .. that its this haven of democracy surrounded by crazy arabs who keep blowing themsleves up. It's not too long ago that the Irish were willing to die in similar but probably not as severe circumstances. Do you think the Irish independance fighters were terrorists?

milod wrote:

Also try to remember that most of Israel replaced a relatively barren piece of desert. There are obvious issues around Jerusalem etc Most of the people who live there were born there, regardless of migration to the 'homeland' so it's hardly surprising that they're reluctant to give it up. The people are there now so instead of arguing principle we should try to reach an accommodation.

Are you for real? Yes they moved in and killed and displaced your ancestors and you should just shut the f**k up and get on with it because it's done now. Just put yourself in a similar situation and see what you would do.

milod wrote:

So feel free to blame Israel for the issues the west has with Islam, if that makes you feel better. However, obsessing about Israel ignores some of the more important problems in that region - who would you prefer had the nukes for example? My vote is with Israel, in that at least their holy book doesn't advocate world domination by holy war...

where did anyone blame Israel for issues the west has with Islam? I would prefer if neither had nukes. If you read that Havard paper that Playboy posted then you wouldnt feel too confident about Israel who have gone behind the US's back selling secrets to the Russians and Chinese.

Dave! · 12-01-2008 12:44am

OP should we boycott the US or the UK too? After all Israel wouldn't be around without their support.

And I guess any countries who trade with Israel or sells them arms should be avoided also, since they are helping to sustain the terrorist state.

Pete4779 · 12-01-2008 1:30pm

5times wrote: »

What, like the time you blew up all those innocent people with your IRA bombs? That's ridiculous to tar everyone in that country, or any country with the same brush. It's attitudes like this that fuel racism.

Irish Government was not and never was the IRA and was not responsible for IRA actions.

Israeli government was and is the command of the Israeli Defence Forces and therfore is responsible for their actions.

Likewise the George Bush administration and RUmsfeld have been held accountable for the actions of the US army.

IRA is not the Irish Defence Forces.

Sand · 12-01-2008 4:07pm

The CORE issues of the Palestinian-Israeli are the collective DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING (compulsory population transfer to achieve political objectives) of the Palestinian people for the past five decades.

Some might disagree with that analysis. Some might say the core issue was the refusal of the surrounding Arab states to accept the existence of Israel or the borders contained within the 1947 UN plan [Creation of Israel, 2 state solution, Jeruselam under interntional/UN control - sounds like the basis for a modern deal doesnt it?]. The plan was accepted by the proto-Israel, was rejected by the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab states.

They dreamed then, as they do now [Hamas...] of a total annialation of Israel, driving the Jews back into the sea.

They consistently opted for the violent solution to their problem over the past 6 decades, but discovered to their dismay that Israel was better at violence than they were. Hence they were defeated, and their land occupied [ Though happily they at least werent driven into the sea as the Jews would have been if they hadnt been as proficient at violence as they proved] and it will continue to be occupied until they agree to accept the existence of Israel and reach a peaceful accomadation with Israel.

I supported the withdrawal from the Gaza strip, but the approach of withdrawal from the occupied territory has been discredited given that the unoccupied territory was simply used to launch attacks directly on Israel civillians. Its clear from Gaza that land for peace doesnt work.

Oh, and I should point out that I am not a Zionist of any stripe. But the facts are clear - the Arabs rejected prior peace deals, they launched a series of wars and hostilities against Israel - and they lost. End of. Israel wants security more than anything else, and its security is best served by a sustainable peace and trade with its neighbours. When their neighbours are willing to make peace Im fairly sure they will be able to reach a deal with some nudges and pushes from the US, EU and maybe even China/Russia. In the meantime Israel will continue to use its military to protect itself from those who wish to destroy it. Its under siege, and its not surprising they have a siege mentality.

I feel sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, but it is a plight of their own making, a war that they declared - though they have been cruelly manipulated by their Arab "backers" also. However, I will never feel "understand" terrorism carried out against Israeli civillians. Soldiers are one thing, a war is a war - but luring a young boy out to a cave and beating his face in with a rock because he is Jewish is simply inhuman, and cant be dressed up by ignoring it and focusing only on Israeli actions with a blinkered, prejudiced, narrow and edited version of events where the Palestinians are long suffering victims, and the Israelis evil racist jack booted thugs. Even if its by the honoured Noam Chomsky.

Ekancone · 12-01-2008 5:14pm

Playboy wrote: »

Nice manners you got there SyxPak especially for a mod. My views are moderated with about 20 or so books on the subject, a girlfriend who has a masters in middle eastern politics and my own 3 years of political science in university.

Do you know what Zionism is? Anyone living in Israel and supporting the existence of Israel is by default a Zionist. Have a look;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Have any of these books been pro-Israel in their argument?

Ekancone · 12-01-2008 5:16pm

Passent.Habek wrote: »

It's not too long ago that the Irish were willing to die in similar but probably not as severe circumstances. Do you think the Irish independance fighters were terrorists?

So you would agree that the Irish people had the right to self-determination. Why not the Jewish people?

Morlar · 12-01-2008 6:42pm

daithifleming wrote: »

So you would agree that the Irish people had the right to self-determination. Why not the Jewish people?

How about the palestinians ?

Ekancone · 12-01-2008 6:49pm

Morlar wrote: »

How about the palestinians ?

Absolutely. If it is the will of the people then i think they should have that right, whoever they are. But if you ask me, this whole mess stems from the Arab leadership doing whatever they can to obstruct matters early in the last century and the subsequent attacks on Israelis following the division of the land by the British. From what i have read, the Jewish leadership were being quite accomodating in the early talks while all the Arab leadership spoke of was defeating the Jewish on the battlefield. Considering their position at the time, you could hardly blame the Arab leadership for adopting that stance, considering they outnumbered the Jewish people, but the plan backfired and over the years further efforts to attack Israelis failed. When you look at the history of the early to mid-twentieth century, could you really blame Israel for adopting such an aggressive stance?

By the way, im not advocating nor defending Israels actions today. Nor do i defend the actions of terrorists/freedom fighters on the Palestinian side. There is blood on the hands of both people if you ask me. No one is justified in killing the innocent.

Passent.Habek · 13-01-2008 5:35am

Sand wrote: »

Some might disagree with that analysis. Some might say the core issue was the refusal of the surrounding Arab states to accept the existence of Israel or the borders contained within the 1947 UN plan [Creation of Israel, 2 state solution, Jeruselam under interntional/UN control - sounds like the basis for a modern deal doesnt it?]. The plan was accepted by the proto-Israel, was rejected by the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab states.

And why should the surrounding Arab states or the Palestinians accept a 2 state solution? Again I ask the question .. would you accept it in Ireland? European Jews began an aggressive colonization policy in the late 19th century. They had one objective and that was to create a homeland for themselves in someone else's land by displacing the native population. They wanted an exclusive Jewish state. Now why should the Arabs or anyone else for that matter accept this? Should we just accept this injustice because as another poster so eloquently put it "you cant unf*ck a virgin"?

From the early days of Zionism with Herzl the Palestinian population have suffered injustice after injustice. I find it unbelievable that people still try and defend the existence of this so called country.

Sand wrote:

They dreamed then, as they do now [Hamas...] of a total annialation of Israel, driving the Jews back into the sea.

And wouldnt you? Am I missing something or did the Irish not spend the best part of a thousand years trying to drive the english back to where they came from? There are still problems in the North after hundreds of years .. the Israeli zionism problem is barely a hundred years old. Forgive the people of Palestine if the memeories are still pretty raw.

Sand wrote:

They consistently opted for the violent solution to their problem over the past 6 decades, but discovered to their dismay that Israel was better at violence than they were. Hence they were defeated, and their land occupied [ Though happily they at least werent driven into the sea as the Jews would have been if they hadnt been as proficient at violence as they proved] and it will continue to be occupied until they agree to accept the existence of Israel and reach a peaceful accomadation with Israel.

And what other realistic option did they have? Should they just accept a large part of their country just given away and be happy about? Are you mad? Just try and put yourself and your family in the same situation. And could you not use the words Jew and Israeli in the same context, it confuses a political issue with a religious.

I do agree though that the only solution does seem to be a two state solution but really do you believe that the Israeli's want one? I don't for a minute think that they do want one. They sabotage negotiations at every oppurtunity and they have a strong expansionist policy like we saw under Sharon and the Likud Party with their ideas of a Greater Israel.

Sand wrote:

Oh, and I should point out that I am not a Zionist of any stripe. But the facts are clear - the Arabs rejected prior peace deals, they launched a series of wars and hostilities against Israel - and they lost. End of. Israel wants security more than anything else, and its security is best served by a sustainable peace and trade with its neighbours. When their neighbours are willing to make peace Im fairly sure they will be able to reach a deal with some nudges and pushes from the US, EU and maybe even China/Russia. In the meantime Israel will continue to use its military to protect itself from those who wish to destroy it. Its under siege, and its not surprising they have a siege mentality.

The facts are clear lol. Well why dont you try and get your facts straight then? The Arabs had every right to reject every peace deal and they had the right to defend their land and to drive the occupiers into the sea. I really dont understand why people dont get this .. The occupation of Palestine by the Zionists was a calculated campaign of ethnic cleansing. The bribed, lobbied and fought tooth and nail to establish a homeland in someone else's country. They tried to remove the native population and are now systematically oppressing and killing the remanants of that population. The ratio of deaths in the conflict at the moment is something like 7 to 1. It's the Palestinians that under seige not the Israeli's .. if you go and visit the area you might be surprised at the quality of life the Israelis have while they under seige from the armies of Palestine :rolleyes:

Sand wrote:

I feel sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, but it is a plight of their own making, a war that they declared

A plight of their own making .. are you serious? A war they declared lol.

Here is a brief history of the conflict that is supposedly unbiased but actually overlooks a lot of Israeli transgressions.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

Read it and tell me that the Palestinians have only themselves to blame

Sand wrote:

though they have been cruelly manipulated by their Arab "backers" also. However, I will never feel "understand" terrorism carried out against Israeli civillians. Soldiers are one thing, a war is a war - but luring a young boy out to a cave and beating his face in with a rock because he is Jewish is simply inhuman, and cant be dressed up by ignoring it and focusing only on Israeli actions with a blinkered, prejudiced, narrow and edited version of events where the Palestinians are long suffering victims, and the Israelis evil racist jack booted thugs. Even if its by the honoured Noam Chomsky.

My God .. I'm not even going to start on the atrocities that the Israel's have carried out on the Palestinians .. there is no point if you have such a blinkered view of history and politics. Of all the atrocities that the Israelis commit on a daily basis and at a ratio of 7 to 1 you pick out an incident where the Palestinians, who are living in unbelievable impoverished conditions, are made to look like inhuman racists. These are a people who have nothing and have had everything taken away .. dispossesed from their lands, futures taken away, families murdered, living in poverty and disease and they are at a breaking point.

Passent.Habek · 13-01-2008 5:42am

daithifleming wrote: »

Have any of these books been pro-Israel in their argument?

I dont think there is a truthful and ethical pro Israel argument. Anything that supports an Israeli position is propoganda. They dont have any justification for their state apart from the 'fact' that it is their divine homeland as it says in the bible :rolleyes:

Why dont you try and do a simple mental exercise .. imagine it was Ireland that the claimed was their ancestral homeland.

Passent.Habek · 13-01-2008 5:44am

daithifleming wrote: »

So you would agree that the Irish people had the right to self-determination. Why not the Jewish people?

Everyone has the right to self determination as long as it doesnt oppress another people.

why not just try and justify the holocaust by saying that the Germans had a right to self determination. What a ridiculous statement.

Passent.Habek · 13-01-2008 5:47am

daithifleming wrote: »

Absolutely. If it is the will of the people then i think they should have that right, whoever they are. But if you ask me, this whole mess stems from the Arab leadership doing whatever they can to obstruct matters early in the last century and the subsequent attacks on Israelis following the division of the land by the British. Considering their position at the time, you could hardly blame the Arab leadership for adopting that stance, considering they outnumbered the Jewish people, but the plan backfired and over the years further efforts to attack Israelis failed. When you look at the history of the early to mid-twentieth century, could you really blame Israel for adopting such an From what i have read, the Jewish leadership were being quite accomodating in the early talks while all the Arab leadership spoke of was defeating the Jewish on the battlefield.aggressive stance?

By the way, im not advocating nor defending Israels actions today. Nor do i defend the actions of terrorists/freedom fighters on the Palestinian side. There is blood on the hands of both people if you ask me. No one is justified in killing the innocent.

haha this gets better and better. They were accomodating .. yeah :rolleyes: The way you talk you would imagine that it was the Palestinians who who were occupying Israeli land.

Sand · 13-01-2008 11:49am

TBH Habek, Everything youve said Ive already dealt with years ago. Its a tribute to the propaganda surrounding the Palestinian issue that as soon as the prior generation of blinkered victims of narrow rhetoric leave university, get a job and calm the hell down, that another generation rise to carry on the adherence to downright inhuman views and idealogy.

So forgive me if I am brief...

And why should the surrounding Arab states or the Palestinians accept a 2 state solution?

Because the alternative is a Final Solution for one side or the other? You dont favour genocide as a solution......right?

Again I ask the question .. would you accept it in Ireland?

Yes, and Ireland has accepted that solution to our problem of two people with differing national identities. Seems to have worked out well. Certainly better than one side or the other driving the other into the Irish Sea.

Should we just accept this injustice because as another poster so eloquently put it "you cant unf*ck a virgin"?

Yes, exactly because of that. Solutions that ignore the reality Israel exists are a stupid, pointless waste of time that merely encourage pointless violence and suffering for Palestinians and Israelis.

And wouldnt you? Am I missing something or did the Irish not spend the best part of a thousand years trying to drive the english back to where they came from?

You are missing something, Irish history was a little more complex than that simplistic narrative. And the solution reached was a two state settlement.

And what other realistic option did they have? Should they just accept a large part of their country just given away and be happy about?

Accepting the 1947 plan proposed by the UN? They would have done much better than the 60 years of misery and pain they have suffered since they rejected it. But then, none can suffer enough for the lefts burning sense of injustice, least of all the innocent. With friends like the Palestinians have had over the years, who needs enemies?

I do agree though that the only solution does seem to be a two state solution but really do you believe that the Israeli's want one?

Yes I do. They accepted the UN deal, they have consistenly sought peace terms with their Arab neighbours and despite the dreams of their lunatic fringe for a greater israel [which have been rejected as signaled by the withdrawal from Gaza and the stated aim to withdraw from the West Bank], they are very much aware that a peaceful settlement secures their state more than any army ever will.

They have proven more than capable of defeating their enemies so far, but they cannot assume they will never fail - and given the spread of nuclear and bio/chem weapons to regimes like Iran they cannot assume that the likes of nihilist organisations like Hizbollah/Hamas will never have access to weapons that can wipe their cities of the map.

A plight of their own making .. are you serious? A war they declared lol.

Yes - theyre not children. As you said they had every right to reject the UNs deal, they had every right to repeatedly invade Israel. And Israel has every right to defend itself. Israel won, and their are consequences to the choices the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours made. Which includes occupation until the Palestinians are finally ready to recognise Israel and make a lasting peace.

Read it and tell me that the Palestinians have only themselves to blame

Theyre not children, theyre responsible for their own actions. I see nothing in the link that absolves them of that reality.

These are a people who have nothing and have had everything taken away .. dispossesed from their lands, futures taken away, families murdered, living in poverty and disease and they are at a breaking point.

Which doesnt excuse anyone bashing the face of 12 year old boy in with a rock, because he was Jewish. A lot of people have hard lives, its not a carte blanche to commit atrocities. A lot of Israelis are or are directly descended from death camp survivors - I doubt youd subscribe to the view that their suffering gives them the right to commit atrocities in revenge?

Your views arent principalled - theyre simply cheerleading for one side, as Orwell said, you probably dont even hear about Palestinian atrocities...

Orion · 13-01-2008 6:26pm

Playboy wrote: »

Why would you want to go to Israel? It's a shameful place .. think twice before you put money into the hands of those racist fanatics. Also you will have problems traveling in other middle eastern countries if you have an Israeli stamp on your passport.

Wow. Nice over-reaction there.

Personally I don't buy anything from Israel. I have no intention of travelling there. And I have been at protests at Israeli embassy functions. And this will continue until they abide by UN resolutions, demolish the wall, stop deliberately targetting civilians and actively work towards a peace settlement.

But to tar the entire population of a country because of the activities of their Government - damn - never thought of that.

Hell - let's apply that to the US as well. GWB is a responsible for the death of thousands of innocent civilians. Therefore all Americans are murderers. It doesn't matter that 49% of the population voted against him in the most recent election and that he's the most unpopular president in the US ever! Just like the ruling party in Israel didn't get 100% of the vote - doesn't matter - all Israelis are racist scumbags anyway.

:rolleyes:

Ekancone · 13-01-2008 7:34pm

Passent.Habek wrote: »

I dont think there is a truthful and ethical pro Israel argument. Anything that supports an Israeli position is propoganda. They dont have any justification for their state apart from the 'fact' that it is their divine homeland as it says in the bible :rolleyes:

Why dont you try and do a simple mental exercise .. imagine it was Ireland that the claimed was their ancestral homeland.

Then all you read are anti-Israel books then? Good lad, no wonder your opinions are so horribly skewed.

Passent.Habek · 14-01-2008 6:45am

daithifleming wrote: »

Then all you read are anti-Israel books then? Good lad, no wonder your opinions are so horribly skewed.

Go on then. I cant wait to hear your justifaction for the existence of Israel.

Passent.Habek · 14-01-2008 6:54am

Macros42 wrote: »

Wow. Nice over-reaction there.

Personally I don't buy anything from Israel. I have no intention of travelling there. And I have been at protests at Israeli embassy functions. And this will continue until they abide by UN resolutions, demolish the wall, stop deliberately targetting civilians and actively work towards a peace settlement.

But to tar the entire population of a country because of the activities of their Government - damn - never thought of that.

Hell - let's apply that to the US as well. GWB is a responsible for the death of thousands of innocent civilians. Therefore all Americans are murderers. It doesn't matter that 49% of the population voted against him in the most recent election and that he's the most unpopular president in the US ever! Just like the ruling party in Israel didn't get 100% of the vote - doesn't matter - all Israelis are racist scumbags anyway.

:rolleyes:

Totally different situation. Israel has existed as a country or state for 59 years .. the population of Israel has emigrated there within a generation or two knowing that their presence there was at the expense of the native Palestinian population. It's not like these two people's have existed side by side for centuries. The people who moved there are actively supporting an apartheid regime and have displaced the native population thus making the whole population of Israel responsible for the situation. You cannot make a comparison with any other democracy as it is a totally unique situation .. the only comparison thatn comes even close is that of the Apartheid Regime in South Africa.

@ Sand .. I will reply later when I have more time

Sand · 14-01-2008 7:00am

Go on then. I cant wait to hear your justifaction for the existence of Israel.

The 1947 General Assembly appointed a special committee that collected evidence and decided unanimously that Israel should be granted independence. Youd have to explain why their researched, considered decision was wrong.

milod · 14-01-2008 1:46pm

@Passent: Despite your rather vociferous attempt to decontrstruct my arguments earlier, you have completely missed my point, and that of Sand. The simple fact remains that we are not starting from zero - we must try to sort out the current situation.

You can rant idealism for the rest of the century and you will achieve nothing. Accusations of Zionism or reverse inferences that I assume anyone who disagrees with me is anti-semitic, are just postural and semantic nonsense - none of which will help anyone in Palestine, Israel or surrounding countries.

I clearly stated my atheism, and my contempt for organised religion includes Judaism and Islam. I have at no point claimed that Israel the state, or the Jews as a religious group are morally justified. But the fact remains that they exist and sitting on your hands whingeing about it isn't going to sort out the problem!

Your principal concern seems to be to point out that you are morally right in condemning Israel - well three cheers to you too! In the meantime, both Israelis and Palestinians continue to die in persistent skirmishes despite whether it's the fault of a suicide bomber or a nasty Israeli soldier...

Now have you anything constructive to add in terms of a solution, or do you really think that denying Israel your tourism budget will strike a blow for Palestine?

Oh and by the way, I wasn't there on holidays, I was there for a lot longer - I didn't just get the tourism board approved tour...

meditraitor · 18-01-2008 2:48pm

Sand wrote: »

TBH Habek, Everything youve said Ive already dealt with years ago. Its a tribute to the propaganda surrounding the Palestinian issue that as soon as the prior generation of blinkered victims of narrow rhetoric leave university, get a job and calm the hell down, that another generation rise to carry on the adherence to downright inhuman views and idealogy.

So forgive me if I am brief...

Because the alternative is a Final Solution for one side or the other? You dont favour genocide as a solution......right?

Yes, and Ireland has accepted that solution to our problem of two people with differing national identities. Seems to have worked out well. Certainly better than one side or the other driving the other into the Irish Sea.

Yes, exactly because of that. Solutions that ignore the reality Israel exists are a stupid, pointless waste of time that merely encourage pointless violence and suffering for Palestinians and Israelis.

You are missing something, Irish history was a little more complex than that simplistic narrative. And the solution reached was a two state settlement.

Accepting the 1947 plan proposed by the UN? They would have done much better than the 60 years of misery and pain they have suffered since they rejected it. But then, none can suffer enough for the lefts burning sense of injustice, least of all the innocent. With friends like the Palestinians have had over the years, who needs enemies?

Yes I do. They accepted the UN deal, they have consistenly sought peace terms with their Arab neighbours and despite the dreams of their lunatic fringe for a greater israel [which have been rejected as signaled by the withdrawal from Gaza and the stated aim to withdraw from the West Bank], they are very much aware that a peaceful settlement secures their state more than any army ever will.

They have proven more than capable of defeating their enemies so far, but they cannot assume they will never fail - and given the spread of nuclear and bio/chem weapons to regimes like Iran they cannot assume that the likes of nihilist organisations like Hizbollah/Hamas will never have access to weapons that can wipe their cities of the map.

Yes - theyre not children. As you said they had every right to reject the UNs deal, they had every right to repeatedly invade Israel. And Israel has every right to defend itself. Israel won, and their are consequences to the choices the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours made. Which includes occupation until the Palestinians are finally ready to recognise Israel and make a lasting peace.

Theyre not children, theyre responsible for their own actions. I see nothing in the link that absolves them of that reality.

Which doesnt excuse anyone bashing the face of 12 year old boy in with a rock, because he was Jewish. A lot of people have hard lives, its not a carte blanche to commit atrocities. A lot of Israelis are or are directly descended from death camp survivors - I doubt youd subscribe to the view that their suffering gives them the right to commit atrocities in revenge?

Your views arent principalled - theyre simply cheerleading for one side, as Orwell said, you probably dont even hear about Palestinian atrocities...

Your a racist

Rev Hellfire · 18-01-2008 3:02pm

meditraitor wrote: »

Your a racist

If I call you one also does that make you one too ?

Perhaps you'd like to expand on your point and highlight how sand could be construed as a racist.

djpbarry · 18-01-2008 3:09pm

Sand wrote: »

The 1947 General Assembly appointed a special committee that collected evidence and decided unanimously that Israel should be granted independence.

No they did not. In 1947, the UN Voted in favour of a partition of the territory of Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state and an internationally controlled jurisdiction. Israel did not declare independence until the following year.

Sand · 18-01-2008 6:54pm

meditraitor wrote:

Your a racist

A profound and compelling argument.

Though Med, as I have stated before this is old ground for me - once the usual fanatic arguments are questioned and shown to be wanting, hysterical accusations of racism/fascism/nazism/whateverism tend to follow. Thanks for checking that particular box on the list.

djpbarry wrote:

No they did not. In 1947, the UN Voted in favour of a partition of the territory of Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state and an internationally controlled jurisdiction. Israel did not declare independence until the following year.

Great, fine. I see now the difference between approving the creation of Israel and approving the independance of Israel is best portrayed artistically as a gaping chasm.

Passent.Habek · 20-01-2008 1:24am

Sand wrote: »

TBH Habek, Everything youve said Ive already dealt with years ago. Its a tribute to the propaganda surrounding the Palestinian issue that as soon as the prior generation of blinkered victims of narrow rhetoric leave university, get a job and calm the hell down, that another generation rise to carry on the adherence to downright inhuman views and idealogy.

Firstly let me apologise for the late reply .. I'm actually quite busy with work at the moment so its hard to find the time for lenghty replies.

Dealt with how? Dealt with it personally?

Propoganda? Please tell me where I have used Palestinian propoganda and we can go through the points and see if we can extract the facts if you like.

Might I give you some advice? Dont assume about other people and if you do keep it to yourself. Your arrogance can make you look foolish.

My contention is that people should avoid Israel as a protest against its inhuman treatment of the Palestinians. We can talk morality and ethics all day but you know Israel is going to lose that argument. I do feel though that it is necessary that if we are going to discuss a political issue then we have to be aware of the history and causes of the problem. For instance if we are going to talk about the holocaust then we have to be aware of the poltical precursors to that event.

You might think it a waste of time to talk about the injustice of the situation instead focusing on a more pragmatic solution .. but .. if we are to find a solution then we have appriecate the profund trauma that the palestinian people have suffered in the last century. Arabic people are very unlike europeans culturally .. they have a history of tribal blood fueds that last generations. They are fiercely independent and can be extremely stubborn. The whole Palestinian people have a blood fued with the Israeli's and it's going to be a long time before they give up on the idea of driving them into the sea and seeking vengence. They have been wronged not only by the Israeli's but by the whole world who have stood by and let this tragedy unfold.

Sand wrote:

Because the alternative is a Final Solution for one side or the other? You dont favour genocide as a solution......right?

Interesting choice of words. I dont favour anyone dieing. A two state solution is the only viable option but Israel does not want one ... they are still expanding all the time, buliding more settlements every day. Why is the Wall built accross the west bank unless they want a large portion of the west bank to themselves? Why are they constantly expanding into Palestinian territory if they ever plan on giving the land back .. it doesnt make sense. Isreal is ethnically cleansing the Palestinians .. its obvious. Their actions are verging on being genocidal.

Sand wrote:

Yes, and Ireland has accepted that solution to our problem of two people with differing national identities. Seems to have worked out well. Certainly better than one side or the other driving the other into the Irish Sea.

haha are you serious? And how long did it take to get there? The assembly is only after reforming after being indefintely suspended .. it's not that long since Omagh and the bombings in England are fresh in everyones minds. The situation in Palestine is a million times worse than Northern Ireland.

Sand wrote:

Yes, exactly because of that. Solutions that ignore the reality Israel exists are a stupid, pointless waste of time that merely encourage pointless violence and suffering for Palestinians and Israelis.

Im not advocating that we ignore Israel exists. What i am advocating is that people bycott Israel until it starts actively working towards a solution by recognising firstly what it has done and continues to do to the Palestinian people. They have wronged them and they need to acknowledge that fact so the healing process can begin. Israel arrogantly believes that it it has done no wrong and that they have every right to that land. They fail to comprehend that they stole a people's country based on nothing more than complaints of injustice done to them as a people and vague references in a holy book.

Sand wrote:

Accepting the 1947 plan proposed by the UN? They would have done much better than the 60 years of misery and pain they have suffered since they rejected it. But then, none can suffer enough for the lefts burning sense of injustice, least of all the innocent. With friends like the Palestinians have had over the years, who needs enemies?

Yes they would have done much better but they didnt know that at the time did they? Maybe the Irish would have done much better if they never revolted against the english. Think of all the lives saved .. and would Ireland be much worse off today if theyn were a part of the Uk? You see my point?

=Sand]Yes I do. They accepted the UN deal, they have consistenly sought peace terms with their Arab neighbours and despite the dreams of their lunatic fringe for a greater israel [which have been rejected as signaled by the withdrawal from Gaza and the stated aim to withdraw from the West Bank], they are very much aware that a peaceful settlement secures their state more than any army ever will.

What horseshi*t in all honesty. The lunatic fringe isnt a fringe at all .. its the majority. The only thing the Israeli's think that will guarentee their state is if they break the Palestinian peolpe like the have been trying to do for the last 60 years. They continously expand into Palestinian territory flouting all UN resolutions .. they deprive palestinians of basic infrastructure such as electricty and clean water. I think my friend you are the victim of propoganda if you really believe what you are writing.

Sand wrote:

They have proven more than capable of defeating their enemies so far, but they cannot assume they will never fail - and given the spread of nuclear and bio/chem weapons to regimes like Iran they cannot assume that the likes of nihilist organisations like Hizbollah/Hamas will never have access to weapons that can wipe their cities of the map.

haha nihilish organizations? How about freedom fighters? If Im not mistaken Israel were occupying Lebanon .. Hezbollah have every right to try and remove them. The only reason Israel have proved capable of defeating anyone is because of the hugh military and financial support the country has recieved and is still recieving.

Sand wrote:

Yes - theyre not children. As you said they had every right to reject the UNs deal, they had every right to repeatedly invade Israel. And Israel has every right to defend itself. Israel won, and their are consequences to the choices the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours made. Which includes occupation until the Palestinians are finally ready to recognise Israel and make a lasting peace.

Do they have a right to defend themselves? Does an aggressor have the right to defend himself? ..

Sand wrote:

Which doesnt excuse anyone bashing the face of 12 year old boy in with a rock, because he was Jewish. A lot of people have hard lives, its not a carte blanche to commit atrocities. A lot of Israelis are or are directly descended from death camp survivors - I doubt youd subscribe to the view that their suffering gives them the right to commit atrocities in revenge?

Your views arent principalled - theyre simply cheerleading for one side, as Orwell said, you probably dont even hear about Palestinian atrocities...

you are so biased its unbelievable .. what about the case in the paper recentley of an Israeli officer pumping a 13 year old girl full of bullets and then admiting that he would have done the same if the girl was 3. He was absolved of doing anything unethical .. one of many many cases that hugely outnumber what is done on the other side.

Passent.Habek · 20-01-2008 1:41am

Sand wrote: »

The 1947 General Assembly appointed a special committee that collected evidence and decided unanimously that Israel should be granted independence. Youd have to explain why their researched, considered decision was wrong.

Hmmmm .. 33 countries voted for. 10 voted against and 13 abstained inlcuding the Uk who were one the the main instigators of the problem.

At the time Palestine was 67% Arab and 33% Jewish. There was an Arab majority in an Arab country. If the Jews didnt like it then go live somewhere else .... most of them had only recently moved there. Why should a large number of immigrants be given their own country in someone elses country? Would you stand for it in Ireland? Do you think the Polish should be given 6 counties just because they moved here? Granting Israel independence was a crime against democracy and a victory for Zionism and their pressure groups which had a huge influence on the decision. When you can throw vast amounts of money at a problem at a time when the world feels guilty for the holocaust you can unfortunately sway a decision in the wrong way.

Orion · 20-01-2008 1:52am

I'm snipping stuff that I am not commenting on - not becuase I'm ignoring it or taking quotes out of context.

Passent.Habek wrote: »

You might think it a waste of time to talk about the injustice of the situation instead focusing on a more pragmatic solution .. but .. if we are to find a solution then we have appriecate the profund trauma that the palestinian people have suffered in the last century ... They have been wronged not only by the Israeli's but by the whole world who have stood by and let this tragedy unfold.

This is very true - particularly the last part of the last sentence. It has been ignored in favour of international indignation of muslim suicide bombers. Israeli perpetrated atrocities are pretty much ignored by the mainstream media.

Passent.Habek wrote: »

Interesting choice of words. I dont favour anyone dieing. A two state solution is the only viable option but Israel does not want one ... they are still expanding all the time, buliding more settlements every day. Why is the Wall built accross the west bank unless they want a large portion of the west bank to themselves? Why are they constantly expanding into Palestinian territory if they ever plan on giving the land back .. it doesnt make sense. Isreal is ethnically cleansing the Palestinians .. its obvious. Their actions are verging on being genocidal.

Again true. The wall has been condemned by a number of nations but a UN resolution against it was vetoes by the US (surprise there).

Passent.Habek wrote: »

Im not advocating that we ignore Israel exists. What i am advocating is that people bycott Israel until it starts actively working towards a solution by recognising firstly what it has done and continues to do to the Palestinian people. They have wronged them and they need to acknowledge that fact so the healing process can begin. Israel arrogantly believes that it it has done no wrong and that they have every right to that land. They fail to comprehend that they stole a people's country based on nothing more than complaints of injustice done to them as a people and vague references in a holy book.

They stole nothing tbh. If you are given a gift and accept it it merely makes you an accessory. The misplaced guilt following WW2 by non-German states resulted in Europe (with the encouragement of the US) taking the land and creating a state of Israel. I personally boycott Israeli products and have actually filled my basket in Supervalu with them and brought it to the counter and handed it all back there. But I am doing this as a reaction to their current policies - the wall, the destruction of the homes of families of bombers, the ignoring of international law etc. Not because of a single event that happened 61 years ago

Passent.Habek wrote: »

I think my friend you are the victim of propoganda if you really believe what you are writing.

tbh you can't really blame him. The mainstram media in Ireland (and UK and US) all talk the same talk. As I said above - Israeli atrocities are not headline news the same way that Palestinian ones are. But both are as guilty as the other of atrocious acts - regardless of their goals.

Passent.Habek wrote: »

you are so biased its unbelievable .. what about the case in the paper recentley of an Israeli officer pumping a 13 year old girl full of bullets and then admiting that he would have done the same if the girl was 3. He was absolved of doing anything unethical .. one of many many cases that hugely outnumber what is done on the other side.

And Palestinian suicide bombers have killed hundreds of children too - indiscrimately - and are hailed as heroes. You have to look at both sides - not just the one that suits your argument. While I agree with the Palestinian goals - i.e. their own state and their land back which Israel have no right to - I cannot agree with their extremists tactics. (NB - read it again - the s on the end of extremists is vital - I am not tagging all Palestinians here).

I do have one concern here also. And this may well be seen as breaking the attack the post not the poster rule. If so - C'est la vie. You suddenly appear in this thread and all of your 9 posts to date have been here. I would like it if you could declare your rl affiliations. I strongly suspect - and I mentioned this to a mod when I reported an earlier post of yours - that this is a second account. Is it? Or is it just that that you register 7 months ago and wait for a thread that suits your agenda?

Passent.Habek · 20-01-2008 1:54pm

[

Macros42 wrote:

I do have one concern here also. And this may well be seen as breaking the attack the post not the poster rule. If so - C'est la vie. You suddenly appear in this thread and all of your 9 posts to date have been here. I would like it if you could declare your rl affiliations. I strongly suspect - and I mentioned this to a mod when I reported an earlier post of yours - that this is a second account. Is it? Or is it just that that you register 7 months ago and wait for a thread that suits your agenda?

The OP is my boyfriend and he uses this board a bit so I joined up 7 months ago .. He isnt able to post in Humanities (the thread was moved from another section) due to disagreement with a mod a couple of years ago. Since I'm Egyptian and have done my undergrad and masters in middle eastern politics I decided to continue the discussion as he was unable to. That ok with you? I would be interested to hear about what your concerns are about my underlying motives for posting in this thread and for what reason did you report a post of mine?

Passent.Habek · 20-01-2008 2:16pm

Macros42 wrote:

They stole nothing tbh. If you are given a gift and accept it it merely makes you an accessory. The misplaced guilt following WW2 by non-German states resulted in Europe (with the encouragement of the US) taking the land and creating a state of Israel. I personally boycott Israeli products and have actually filled my basket in Supervalu with them and brought it to the counter and handed it all back there. But I am doing this as a reaction to their current policies - the wall, the destruction of the homes of families of bombers, the ignoring of international law etc. Not because of a single event that happened 61 years ago

I would disagree here even though its just semantics really. It didnt occur that one day the world decided to give a section of Palestine to the Zionists. It was a process that had begun with Herzl at the end of the 19th century .. If you convince someone else to help you with a robbery after you had been planning it for 50 years and you are the only benefactor of the spoils then who is really the accessory? The fact is that the Zionist movement which was highly organized and had clear objectives used and exploited the holocaust get an independent state in Palestine. The world felt like they owed them something and to an extent we did. But did we have to instigate another genocidal event to try and make up for the other? What really blows my mind about the whole situation though is how on earth can a people who have suffered so much like the Jews replicate the behaviour they have endured for so many centuries?

Passent.Habek · 20-01-2008 2:27pm

Macros42 wrote: »

And Palestinian suicide bombers have killed hundreds of children too - indiscrimately - and are hailed as heroes. You have to look at both sides - not just the one that suits your argument. While I agree with the Palestinian goals - i.e. their own state and their land back which Israel have no right to - I cannot agree with their extremists tactics. (NB - read it again - the s on the end of extremists is vital - I am not tagging all Palestinians here).

And my contention here as unpopular as it may be is this. Suicide Bombing by its very nature is a desperate act. This is the only way these people feel they can fight against the Israeli's. They have nothing, they are at the brink .. the Israel's in comparison have a fantastic standard of living. Go traveling and see how many Israeli's you will meet in Thailand or Australia enjoying themselves .. and see how many Palestinians you will meet. The point is that when you push a people to the brink or over the edge then they will do horrible things. While it cant be justified it can however be understood. Understanding how IDF does the things it does though is more difficult to do .. they are not a people at the brink, they are not at the edge, they have a good quality of life. What excuse do they have for behaving in such an inhuman way?

Sand · 20-01-2008 2:34pm

Passent.Habek wrote:

Dealt with how?

As in the names change, but the viewpoints are almost entirely unchanging. Hence your views and arguments are very, very familiar.

Might I give you some advice? Dont assume about other people and if you do keep it to yourself. Your arrogance can make you look foolish.

Ill have to run that risk I guess.

My contention is that people should avoid Israel as a protest against its inhuman treatment of the Palestinians.

A better option would be to boycott both parties to the conflict. Otherwise you are becoming a party to the conflict, even in an undeclared fashion.

I do feel though that it is necessary that if we are going to discuss a political issue then we have to be aware of the history and causes of the problem.

Everyone is or should be aware of the history. Dwelling on some completely pointless argument over whether Israel is entitled to exist is a waste of time. All countries - even the one youre in now - exist because groups of violent, dangerous armed men say so and killed anyone who disagreed back in the day. Right or wrong.

Israel exists, end of. The issue is A) Getting its neighbours to accept that - rather than encouraging them not to, and

Reaching a sustainable, stable peace settlement which balances Israels well founded paranoia with Palestines need for a workable political and economic entity.

Going on and on and on and on and on about who said what back in the 40s wont help.

it's going to be a long time before they give up on the idea of driving them into the sea and seeking vengence.

Agreed - hence the best that can be hoped for is a stalemate, with decreasing cycles of violence. The wall has been a huge success in that effort, making it far harder for suicide bombers to hit Israeli schools, homes and shopping areas and thus reducing the retaliatory violence that follows.

A two state solution is the only viable option but Israel does not want one

It has previously agreed and pursued a two state option, including a deal which granted it far less territory than it now holds. It has consistently agreed deals where it has traded back captured terriotory in exchange for peace. And most recently it withdrew from Gaza, removing all the settlers there. It recognises a two state option, with an independant Palestine is the end goal of any workable deal.

Should a viable deal be made, I believe the Israelis will quite willingly evacuate the vast majority of settlements, deploying their military as they did in Gaza to deal with any fanatics.

haha are you serious?

Yes

The situation in Palestine is a million times worse than Northern Ireland.

You introduced Ireland as a comparison to the Palestinian conflict. Now you reject that comparison because you dont like the answer...

They have wronged them and they need to acknowledge that fact so the healing process can begin.

This a decades old conflict between nations [ if not quite yet states], not Oprah tbh. I sincerly doubt any peace deal will be doable if its aimed more at imposing a moral judgement on the various combatants rather than simply getting them to stop shooting and live seperately, peacefully, if not happily.

Yes they would have done much better but they didnt know that at the time did they? Maybe the Irish would have done much better if they never revolted against the english. Think of all the lives saved .. and would Ireland be much worse off today if theyn were a part of the Uk? You see my point?

So? They gambled that they could do better in war, they were wrong, now they have to deal with the consequences. Wars start when you wish but they do not end when you please. History doesnt come with a reload button.

The lunatic fringe isnt a fringe at all .. its the majority

Oh right, Hence the IDF dragging the lunatics out of Gaza kicking and screaming?

Do they have a right to defend themselves? Does an aggressor have the right to defend himself? ..

Yep, each party to a conflict has the right to defend themselves.

you are so biased its unbelievable

I dont agree to be honest. Im looking at the conflict objectively without undue favour to either side, you arent.

what about the case in the paper recentley of an Israeli officer pumping a 13 year old girl full of bullets and then admiting that he would have done the same if the girl was 3. He was absolved of doing anything unethical

haha nihilish organizations? How about freedom fighters?

Maybe the Israeli officer was a freedom fighter too? Isnt that the usual excuse, something profound like the "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"? Deep stuff really.

Why should a large number of immigrants be given their own country in someone elses country?

Another pointless argument. Both sides claim a right to return which is equally valid or invalid in its own right. Argue it with yourself if you wish, it wont change the reality that Israel exists.

Macros42 wrote:

I personally boycott Israeli products and have actually filled my basket in Supervalu with them and brought it to the counter and handed it all back there.

Thatll show em!

Passent.Habek · 20-01-2008 2:59pm

Sand wrote: »

As in the names change, but the viewpoints are almost entirely unchanging. Hence your views and arguments are very, very familiar.

Ill have to run that risk I guess.

A better option would be to boycott both parties to the conflict. Otherwise you are becoming a party to the conflict, even in an undeclared fashion.

Everyone is or should be aware of the history. Dwelling on some completely pointless argument over whether Israel is entitled to exist is a waste of time. All countries - even the one youre in now - exist because groups of violent, dangerous armed men say so and killed anyone who disagreed back in the day. Right or wrong.

Israel exists, end of. The issue is A) Getting its neighbours to accept that - rather than encouraging them not to, and Reaching a sustainable, stable peace settlement which balances Israels well founded paranoia with Palestines need for a workable political and economic entity.

Going on and on and on and on and on about who said what back in the 40s wont help.

Agreed - hence the best that can be hoped for is a stalemate, with decreasing cycles of violence. The wall has been a huge success in that effort, making it far harder for suicide bombers to hit Israeli schools, homes and shopping areas and thus reducing the retaliatory violence that follows.

It has previously agreed and pursued a two state option, including a deal which granted it far less territory than it now holds. It has consistently agreed deals where it has traded back captured terriotory in exchange for peace. And most recently it withdrew from Gaza, removing all the settlers there. It recognises a two state option, with an independant Palestine is the end goal of any workable deal.

Should a viable deal be made, I believe the Israelis will quite willingly evacuate the vast majority of settlements, deploying their military as they did in Gaza to deal with any fanatics.

Yes

You introduced Ireland as a comparison to the Palestinian conflict. Now you reject that comparison because you dont like the answer...

This a decades old conflict between nations [ if not quite yet states], not Oprah tbh. I sincerly doubt any peace deal will be doable if its aimed more at imposing a moral judgement on the various combatants rather than simply getting them to stop shooting and live seperately, peacefully, if not happily.

So? They gambled that they could do better in war, they were wrong, now they have to deal with the consequences. Wars start when you wish but they do not end when you please. History doesnt come with a reload button.

Oh right, Hence the IDF dragging the lunatics out of Gaza kicking and screaming?

Yep, each party to a conflict has the right to defend themselves.

I dont agree to be honest. Im looking at the conflict objectively without undue favour to either side, you arent.

Maybe the Israeli officer was a freedom fighter too? Isnt that the usual excuse, something profound like the "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"? Deep stuff really.

Another pointless argument. Both sides claim a right to return which is equally valid or invalid in its own right. Argue it with yourself if you wish, it wont change the reality that Israel exists.

Thatll show em!

lol Sand .. you are a hopeless case. I'm not going to waste any more time. You are trying to take the moral highground by focusing on the solution. The are many facets to this issue and the solution is only one. By ignoring the history of the conflict, the continuing atrocities commited by the Israeli's and you inability to see through the propoganda of Israeli politics in regards to settlements and expansion, you are effectively playing right into mindset the Israeli's want you to have. Peace will never be achieved under these circumstances .. Israel will continue to pretend to play for peace while they behave in a completely contradictory manner. You have a minor knowledge of the issue backed up by a lot of right wing conviction and sensibilities which cloud your judgement. You are more interested in hearing what you want to hear instead of seeing things for the way they are. If you want to ignore the UN and intellectuals such as Chomsky and instead fool yourself into believing that you are an authority on the subject then go ahead .. I'm not going to waste any more time on you.

Zionism

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