Knife training

cowzerp

A friend of mine is looking for knife training classes, i think its more efense of knives, anyone have any info on this please? thanks

Killme00

cowzerp wrote: »

A friend of mine is looking for knife training classes, i think its more efense of knives, anyone have any info on this please? thanks

I think there is a guy who teaches Silat or Escrima who posts here. They would be very good for weapons defence training.

arybvtcw0eolkf

cowzerp wrote: »

A friend of mine is looking for knife training classes, i think its more efense of knives, anyone have any info on this please? thanks

If your mate is up your way have you considered Eugene McQuillan?.

http://www.combathapkidoireland.com/

silat liam

cowzerp wrote: »

A friend of mine is looking for knife training classes, i think its more efense of knives, anyone have any info on this please? thanks

Hi Cowzerp

If you friend interested our style of silat is a blade system, if he wants to contact me he can or PM for more details of classes and venues i.e he /she more than welcome, and hopefully we can help.

Regards

Liam

cowzerp

Thanks lads, its a lad i done a private boxing lesson for, he's interested in getting his gardai brother a few sessions as a present! if anyone else has links post them please and i'll pass them on, thanks again..

Killme00

cowzerp wrote: »

Thanks lads, its a lad i done a private boxing lesson for, he's interested in getting his gardai brother a few sessions as a present! if anyone else has links post them please and i'll pass them on, thanks again..

I dont think anyone with a knife would stand a chance against the new extendable baton/ asp. The vibrations are a real killer after the first impact.

Nothingcompares

cowzerp wrote: »

Thanks lads, its a lad i done a private boxing lesson for, he's interested in getting his gardai brother a few sessions as a present! if anyone else has links post them please and i'll pass them on, thanks again..

Have you seen any of Karl Tanswell's STAB stuff?

takeda shingen

Karl Tanswells stuff is the most idiotic knife defense ive ever seen..

john kavanagh

when did you do the course?

FiannaGym.com

Karl Tanswell STAB course is far and away the best defence against a knife training there is. And thats that.

Remember, train a knife all you like, it's neevr gonna do martial arts.

Peace

3KINGS

Frank Mc Conville in Belfast has a great blend of blade knowledge from Thai,Indo and Phillie back grounds.Nice and simply and very effective...I dont think he posts here but given half the chance,he'ed be your best bet in the North.Very Strong Muay Thai and krabbi krabong back ground.Just an idea but check him out.
All the best J

SorGan

wildgeesema.com
escrima/kali/arnis... they do short courses too, might be worth a look see.:)

Baggio...

takeda shingen wrote: »

Karl Tanswells stuff is the most idiotic knife defense ive ever seen..

Hey Cowzer,

I'm not a big fan of his STAB stuff either to be honest. I'd recommend the "Redzone" material before Karl's IMHO, as it covers a lot more, and follows a better concept. I've never been on any of Karl's courses to be fair , but I have seen his STAB Vid.

I think Lee Morrison's stuff is the best stuff I've seen so far. Although, people will probably call me biased. For nearly the same price as I private lesson I'd recommend Lee's "on the Sharp Edge DVD" (3 dvds covering all aspects of Counter knife). Check out a few reviews:
http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/q-a-with-lee-morrison-f14/on-the-sharp-edge-t4312.htm

Here's my own review....(again people might call me biased, but what can you do?)
http://www.urbancombatives-ireland.com/news/new-dvd-release-on-the-sharp-edge#more-17

Just in case he's interested in the DVD:
http://www.urbancombatives.com/sharp.htm

Lee will be coming over to do a "counter knife" seminar in the future. Something for your mate might want to check out.

Cheers,

R.

celt2005

FiannaGym.com wrote: »

Karl Tanswell STAB course is far and away the best defence against a knife training there is. And thats that.

If ya say so ........

john kavanagh

tbh i've no interest in learning how to defend against a knife attack, i've enough on my plate trying to deal with 'empty handed' people but what i did like about karl's program is the fact you quickly work against committed attacks

most stuff i've seen on the net etc covers the typical 'opponent lunges forward and freezes while you do a counter' that i did for years in kenpo. even this clip from baggio's site right click, save target as shows a committed defence....but a non-committed offence. the same type of 'lunge attack and freeze' offence i did in my tma days. unlike this warning...graphic where the attacker does not try one attack and freeze but rather attacks repeatedly.

there's a regular poster here who had done all sorts of knife training who came to me for a trial class. we got to the talking and he brought this up so i said show me it. i attacked him in a 'committed' way (what i'd call realistic) and all his defence fell apart.

but like i've said before on many thread like this....'knife defence' would be way way way down on my list of training for 'self defence' if that was something i was interested in training for.

Baggio...

john kavanagh wrote: »

tbh i've no interest in learning how to defend against a knife attack, i've enough on my plate trying to deal with 'empty handed' people but what i did like about karl's program is the fact you quickly work against committed attacks

Hey John,

I know what you are saying alright... That clip I was not me being 100% committed I could have been a lot more ferocious. But Jon's response was very cool - so that' why it's been used. He definitely puts the kibosh on me . Also that's only a sliver of what is used in Lee's Counter knife concept. I'll try and get some more stuff up there over time. Too much to convey in one clip.

On the other side of the coin, the UC systems unlike Kenpo and many mar. arts does take into account the retraction of the blade. Which will almost certainly happen during the attack (I'd have to find another demo to show you). But an old axiom states that if the blade is out it's "almost" too late. A lot of the U.C. stuff is spent actually stopping the blade before it's actually comes into play - which is far more preferable to it being out, and then having to "fend" against it (I use the term "fend" as blocking wont work at full speed). This is where you awareness comes in, and keeping your eyes on the contact's hands. If it looks like hes going to draw a weapon (via some form of body language or psychological cue). Then you would attack first, and thus "foul his draw" so to speak. The emphasis would be on a continuous attack while trying to control his weapon hand. But always striking for full impact (no kenpo "micro" striking here). Good old fashioned Head buts knees and elbows.

I been lucky enough to pressure test this stuff, and I found I could make it work pretty well. Nothing is fool proof of course... I've tried Karl's system a few times (while I was going through my knife defense stage before I was training with Lee). Trying to grab and control the weapon hand (in the way Karl does) is very difficult. In his vids the guys are also "half" committed. I can't see it working against frenzied knife attack. And there are lot of guys in the self-protection field that would agree with me.

But that's not really the issue. Best thing, and I say this to everyone; is to pressure test it. If some of the lads here can make the STAB work, well that's cool. For me however, I'd go with other methods, which I are better suited to me. My main concern with STAB (or any two handed grabbing method) is catching and then controlling the weapon arm in the initial stages of the encounter. The blade moves so fast and then it retracts before anyone has a real chance to grab it. I think it's more likely that your hands would be very badly lacerated, as the blade came in and out.

That's not including the stress either.... but that is applicable to every system.

BTW have you seen the Red Zone stuff? I think it's a lot better - think it's also by a SBG guy. Can't remember his name. I'd say you'd like it - his pressure testing is pretty good.

Here's the link for the redzone gear - might interest a few of the MMA lads:

http://www.centerlinegym.com/site/content/view/56/68/

Cheers,

R.

ryoishin

Tell your mate to try them all and put his common sense to which one he thinks meets his needs.

Put something between you and the blade-preferably distance.

I can vouch for the garda asp, my sisters bf was on duty with another gard and whatever was going on one bloke stabbed the other gard and my sis bf whacked him across the wrist with the asp and broke his wrist. But he could have just been lucky.

Id be interested to hear if you guys thought in a SD suitation against a blade youd have to be willing to kill the attacker to defen properly as in if you had to.

Baggio...

ryoishin wrote: »

Tell your mate to try them all and put his common sense to which one he thinks meets his needs.

Sounds like the best plan - just be sure to test it under pressure.

R.

3KINGS

As far as i know there are teachers of Thai,Indo,Phillie weapons sytems in Belfast,Dublin and Galway area.I still reckon they are your best bet,as they are weapons based arts.I'm not sayen they are the be all of every thing but tryen to grappel against blade,is a death sentence.Along with the fact that most we scum bags carry at least two blades.I live in London and daily now some one is getten slased,stabbed.I love wrestling,I really do but it has no place against the blade.Along with the fact that scum hunt in packs...I think a few of the oler arts work better..................J

john kavanagh

Baggio... wrote: »

BTW have you seen the Red Zone stuff? I think it's a lot better - think it's also by a SBG guy. Can't remember his name. I'd say you'd like it - his pressure testing is pretty good..

yes i've trained with jerry (i think thats his name).

well like i said i dont have any interest in knife training tbh, staying in (fairly) good shape and improving my stand-up, clinch and ground keeps me busy enough haha

jk

edges

SorGan wrote: »

wildgeesema.com
escrima/kali/arnis... they do short courses too, might be worth a look see.:)

Thanks SorGan,

We teach FMA which has a large section of knife defence. Much of it has come from the Doce Pares Eskrima but with many other influences.

Drop by for a look any time, class times and contact details are on the website.

Plus, from what I've seen, heard and read, the Urban Combatives lads would be worth a look. I've been meaning to see them myself for a while now.

Best of luck

Dave

www.wildgeesema.com
any cause but our own

saneape

I am here lurking and if any one has any direct questions i would be happy to answer.

Basically, i believe the alot of the south east asian systems to be a crock of nonsense. Full of distractions and fancy accessories.

I feel your chances would be much better when training in an Alive art such as bjj wrestling etc.

celt2005

saneape wrote: »

Basically, i believe the alot of the south east asian systems to be a crock of nonsense. Full of distractions and fancy accessories.

I feel your chances would be much better when training in an Alive art such as bjj wrestling etc.

What tangible information can be provided to back up your assertion ???

Training background, experience is SE Asian arts etc ....

saneape

30 years in Martial arts (20 of those full time)

5 blackbelts in various systems (one of them 5th degree)

Full instructor ... jun fan/ jeet kune do and fiilipino martial arts (at that time-15 years ago , one of 4 in my country)

Instructor status ... in two silat systems

Instructor ... panantukan boxing minnosta kali group method/ric faye

Seniour instructor in Choshinkai martial arts.

Now to the ones that actually count:

Brazilian jiu jitsu blackbelt

Judo brown belt

Full instuctor SBG international

Created STAB program

Produced a world class MMA athlete and gold medalists in various combat sports.

And I also have scars from 7 knife wounds on my body (same incident)

I have probably forgot a few things, but hey, i have also been hit in the head alot.;)

Now , were was we?


WWW.SBGUK.CO.UK

Baggio...

saneape wrote: »

Created STAB program

Hi Karl,

It's great to have you here, thanks for taking the time to post on boards. Be great to have your input there on the forum.

I sincerely hope you weren't offended by my comments. I just prefer the "Combatives" approach to the Knife.

Cheers,

Rob.

Nothingcompares

saneape wrote: »

30 years in Martial arts (20 of those full time)

5 blackbelts in various systems (one of them 5th degree)

Jessu, did you never play football?

columok

Karl wrote:

I have probably forgot a few things, but hey, i have also been hit in the head alot.

You forgot to mention your smoooooth moves with the laydees!!! On show in Redz about twice yearly!!!

celt2005

saneape wrote: »

30 years in Martial arts (20 of those full time)

5 blackbelts in various systems (one of them 5th degree)

Full instructor ... jun fan/ jeet kune do and fiilipino martial arts (at that time-15 years ago , one of 4 in my country)

Instructor status ... in two silat systems

Instructor ... panantukan boxing minnosta kali group method/ric faye

Seniour instructor in Choshinkai martial arts.

Now to the ones that actually count:

Brazilian jiu jitsu blackbelt

Judo brown belt

Full instuctor SBG international

Created STAB program

Produced a world class MMA athlete and gold medalists in various combat sports.

And I also have scars from 7 knife wounds on my body (same incident)

I have probably forgot a few things, but hey, i have also been hit in the head alot.;)

Now , were was we?


WWW.SBGUK.CO.UK

Consider me Tangoed !!!!!!!

Baggio...

saneape wrote: »

I am here lurking and if any one has any direct questions i would be happy to answer.

Hi Karl,

You obviously have had an awesme about of experience in all areas....

I'd really appreciate your thoughts on fighting multiples or ground fighting on the street (if you have the time).

Many thanks,

Rob.

saneape

No worries guys,

It is a long time that fighting with with more than guy has crossed my mind. I spend most of my time trying to work out how to survive with one guy (survive in the sport sense i mean).

I would say this, if you cannot get up and to safety with one guy, how the hell do you think you could do it while beng kicked in the head.

I WOULD ALSO SAY THIS, IF YOU ARE FIGHTING WITH MULTIPLE PEOPLE WE MAY CONSIDER...

1. WHERE YOU ARE HANGING OUT
2. MAYBE GETTING A PERSONALLY TEST

Regards grappling in the street, maybe discuise yourself as a skateboarder and get some knee and elbow pads.

i just asked my girlfriend what she thought of fighting in the street and she replied

"its okay if you are 15. And what about the dog ****"

I spent £3000 on mats a few years ago. Good investment in my opion.

cheers

takeda shingen

we bow to your superior knowledge sensei!!!
seriously i fully respect your training history mr tanswell but only a fool would grapple someone with a knife. but it is a catchy acronym, stab.

saneape

ha ha, sensei...not really into the terminology side, but hey if being a sub is your thing thats fine by me.

I dont know how big the knifes are in Ireland but unless a guy is going to throw it at you , i would say you are pretty much in grappling range. You dont always have the choice when someone is attacking you!

I have never advocated grappling with a knife , carrying a knife or for that matter hanging around in any situation of that nature when running is your first option.

.By the way.As i am not that into titles you can call me Karl.

www.sbguk.co.uk

"free yourself from the bull****.Train alive"

Baggio...

saneape wrote: »

No worries guys,

It is a long time that fighting with with more than guy has crossed my mind. I spend most of my time trying to work out how to survive with one guy (survive in the sport sense i mean).

I would say this, if you cannot get up and to safety with one guy, how the hell do you think you could do it while beng kicked in the head.

Hi Karl,

Thanks for the advise... I totally agree with you there. I guess that why I'm not a grappler, and stick to self-protection.

saneape wrote: »

I WOULD ALSO SAY THIS, IF YOU ARE FIGHTING WITH MULTIPLE PEOPLE WE MAY CONSIDER...

1. WHERE YOU ARE HANGING OUT
2. MAYBE GETTING A PERSONALLY TEST

Again, you right there -avoiding bad locations, etc. (Awareness is key!).
Unfortunately, you can't always dictate where trouble will manifest itself. As one of my friends found out recently while he was collecting a pizza from is local.

Thanks,

Rob.

columok

Thanks for the advise... I totally agree with you there. I guess that why I'm not a grappler, and stick to self-protection.

Baggio,

If you're into self protection then how do you get out of a grapple if you can't grapple??

Baggio...

columok wrote: »

Baggio,

If you're into self protection then how do you get out of a grapple if you can't grapple??

Hi Colum,

Dare I open up this whole bugbear again....?:)

Well, we'd have a slightly different approach. I guess you could call it counter-grappling. Working off the premise that grappling for us is a secondary skill. IE - we'd like to finish the fight off with striking, and not go to the ground (unless something has gone badly wrong). However, if we ended up on the floor, for whatever reason, then we'd go into our so called "counter-grappling" tactics. Some of these tactics would include certain restricted striking, biting, gouging, and certain escapes, etc. These would be pressure tested and a high level of contact. Again, I can't go into everything here - but hopefully it's just enough to give you the concept.

Also, bear in mind that I'm talking about street thugs, and not specifically MMA guys. While the tactics would remain the same regardless. I don't ever want to end up in a tangle with some BJJ/Judo guy.... for obvious reasons.:D

Cheers,

R.

RearNakedJim

Baggio... wrote: »

Well, we'd have a slightly different approach. I guess you could call it counter-grappling. Working off the premise that grappling for us is a secondary skill. IE - we'd like to finish the fight off with striking, and not go to the ground (unless something has gone badly wrong).

Grappling is not confined to the ground, people on here tend to ignore(i say ignore as im pretty sure it has been stated by anyone who trains mma etc that they wouldnt go to the ground in a street situation) this fact when dicussing the disadvantages of bjj specificially, when most of us do judo and wrestling or both and at the very least have some clinch experience.
If you have good Grappling it allows you to chose where the fight goes, and by this i mean put the guy down while your left standing/prevent him taking you down while hes waiting for his mates to cross the road, then escape.

Baggio... wrote: »

Also, bear in mind that I'm talking about street thugs, and not specifically MMA guys. While the tactics would remain the same regardless. I don't ever want to end up in a tangle with some BJJ/Judo guy.... for obvious reasons.:D

If im not mistaken your training for self-defense? so why would you make a crazy asumption that if you get in a fight it will be against street thugs with no game/skill.

What are these tactics?

Just this weekend i was shown the tactics thought to the garda in the UNLIKELY event that they end up on their back, which was essentially kick their legs towards the attacker, and then try and get up.

Are your tactics similar?

Baggio...

RearNakedJim wrote: »

If im not mistaken your training for self-defense? so why would you make a crazy asumption that if you get in a fight it will be against street thugs with no game/skill.

Like I said in my previous post... MOST of the thugs you will meet are untrained. I never said we did not train for guys who possess skills. Of course we do! If they are trained the same principles will apply (as I have already stated in my earlier post).

I make no assumptions except these.

1) You opponent is very capable. (regardless weather he is trained or untrained).
2) He has mates.
3) He is armed.
4) He has real intent to do you harm (and has experience in street fighting).
5) You will b fighting under the worst possible conditions.
6) Murphy's lay applies - whatever can go wrong will go wrong.

As for the tactics? Refer to my previous post.

saneape

Denial and Justification....

Dont be to tough on yourselfs....Just do some grappling. It so much easier.

The fact is this, there are better ways to do things.

Anti Grappling .... yeh we have that too. In fact i would think most grappling systems do!

I mean come on you will be talking about Scenario Training next.

Baggio...

saneape wrote: »

Anti Grappling .... yeh we have that too. In fact i would think most grappling systems do!

You never know I might just pop down to an MMA class yet, and see what the story is. I'd like to know what the MMA take is on how to stop a grappler.

saneape wrote: »

I mean come on you will be talking about Scenario Training next.

You got me there... guilty as charged;). I do enjoy some of the scenario work, as long as it's kept as realistic as possible (padded up and full contact).

Cheers,

Rob.

RearNakedJim

Baggio... wrote: »

Like I said in my previous post... MOST of the thugs you will meet are untrained. I never said we did not train for guys who possess skills. Of course we do! If they are trained the same principles will apply (as I have already stated in my earlier post).

Fair enough, my apologies.

Baggio... wrote: »

1) You opponent is very capable. (regardless weather he is trained or untrained).
2) He has mates.
3) He is armed.
4) He has real intent to do you harm (and has experience in street fighting).
5) You will b fighting under the worst possible conditions.
6) Murphy's lay applies - whatever can go wrong will go wrong.

As for the tactics? Refer to my previous post.

1-6 ok, you said its to indept to go into, if you ask someone with grappling experience they can answer my question in 1 sentence, probably involving shrimping, bridging and pendulum swing, course Fianna would just say butt scoot, my point its not hard to explain when your talking to an educated audience.

And the garda technique??

Roper

I know I'll catch some flak for this from some of the other MMA folk on here. But we do scenario training at KO.

It's totally random. You face off against a partner and he can do ANYTHING he wants to you- take you down, punch you, kick you, knee you, choke you- and you have to try to do the same to him.

It's realistic, and every now and then we change the "scenario", so one guy has to only strike while the other guy has to just take him down and so on. We don't use knives because, to be frank, it's hard enough already.

Baggio...

Roper wrote: »

It's totally random. You face off against a partner and he can do ANYTHING he wants to you- take you down, punch you, kick you, knee you, choke you- and you have to try to do the same to him.

That sounds very similar to some of the stuff I've done in the past. You never know whats about to happen.

I think it's great stuff if it's used properly. It's also great for people who are new to training, and not used to dealing with aggression, and fear (effects of adrenalin, etc).

saneape

"It's totally random. You face off against a partner and he can do ANYTHING he wants to you- take you down, punch you, kick you, knee you, choke you- and you have to try to do the same to him."

We also do this, We call it sparring....


"You never know I might just pop down to an MMA class yet, and see what the story is."

Sweet...

john kavanagh

Roper wrote: »

It's totally random. You face off against a partner and he can do ANYTHING he wants to you- take you down, punch you, kick you, knee you, choke you- and you have to try to do the same to him..

Baggio...

I did some stuff over in Liverpool about a year and a half ago. Which a very cool instructor, a guy called Simon Squires. Besides the Combatives training we did. There was quite a bit of full contact scenario work. He's basically designed a suit that can pretty much take full force shots to the head, and that virtualy eliminates brain splash.

I wont go into every detail, but the general gist of the matter is; two blokes shouting and screaming at you (argie bargie and all that). One being padded up, he's the lad that's going to get it. . Unlike self-protection you have to let him strike you first before you can begin. It's not like the regular "bullet man" training which has limited contact either.
By the way you've no padding whatsoever!

What I liked about it, was I found out what worked for me under duress. Head, palms, knees, elbows (everyone is different of course). But we ran through various combative states. Some you were just pushed before the attack. others were totally out of the blue, while some you'd have to get back to you feet after having to break free from a ground and pound, etc.

It's worth having a go if you get a chance.

It's not like the scenarios where there are two guys in an invisible cinema ones supposed to be pushing your invisible seat, then he picks up and pretends to eat his invisible popcorn, and then he throws it at you, etc. I'm not into that type of stuff - I've just never been able to get that type of verisimilitude in that type of training.

But that's just me...

R.

Nothingcompares

I found from time to time I notice that certain people on this forum use the term "grappling" to refer to any kind of wrestling on the ground and the word "wrestling" to refer to wrestling while standing. I tend to use them interchangeably because I consider them fairly synonymous, perhaps a source of some of the confusion.

AckwelFoley

Grappling refers to the gripping, handling and controlling of an opponent without the use of striking, typically through the application of various grappling holds, choke holds, and counters to various hold attempts. Grappling forms an important part of both ground fighting and standing clinch fighting. Sports that use grappling include Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Judo, mixed martial arts and Wrestling. FILA uses the term grappling interchangeably with the sport of submission wrestling. - Wiki

RearNakedJim

Roper wrote: »

I know I'll catch some flak for this from some of the other MMA folk on here. But we do scenario training at KO.

It's totally random. You face off against a partner and he can do ANYTHING he wants to you- take you down, punch you, kick you, knee you, choke you- and you have to try to do the same to him.

It's realistic, and every now and then we change the "scenario", so one guy has to only strike while the other guy has to just take him down and so on. We don't use knives because, to be frank, it's hard enough already.

I like barry

ryoishin

If someone wants you dead with a knife they ll stick it in your back while your asleep, having a p*ss,snogging or whatever.

If someone pulls a knife infront of you then they want something from you. give it to them. your wallet is nt worth your life.

Of course theres the case that you keep the wrong kind of company or your dealing with an emotion fuelled attack ie the cheating husband and his wife etc in which case best of luck.

SorGan

ryoishin wrote: »

If someone wants you dead with a knife they ll stick it in your back while your asleep, having a p*ss,snogging or whatever.

If someone pulls a knife infront of you then they want something from you. give it to them. your wallet is nt worth your life.

Of course theres the case that you keep the wrong kind of company or your dealing with an emotion fuelled attack ie the cheating husband and his wife etc in which case best of luck.

some lovely generalizations there, i dont get your point though.

ryoishin

What am I generalising?

What im saying is dont get into a knife fight, if they want your cash give it to them.

If they want you life then i doubt they will take out a blade while across the other side of the room show it to you and then try to stab you.

The bit at the end was in regard to emotional attacks. Like if some one does have a blade infront of you and tells you that they re going to kill you then chances are its someone who you have a relationship (on whatever level, gf, bf, etc) and who you have hurt emotionally. I know emotions are involved in everything but i mean someone you have a history with and you have damaged that history.