electric vehicle conversion

jackbauer

hi,
i'm in the process of converting a car and motorbike to battery electric drive and am wondering if anyone knows the state of play in ireland regarding tax,insurance,nct etc?
many thanks

Henry Ford III

Insurance will probably change ok. Better to tell current insurer of your plans, in writing, in advance.

No idea about tax.

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

hi,
i'm in the process of converting a car and motorbike to battery electric drive and am wondering if anyone knows the state of play in ireland regarding tax,insurance,nct etc?
many thanks

I've wondered about this too in Ireland... A lot of people in the US/Canada convert vehicles to Electric and there's no problem whats so ever.

I used to work with electric vehicles when i lived in canada, I was mainly designing motor controllers for them.

Which car are you converting?
Are you using an Advanced DC motor? which one?
Did you make up your own adapter plate for the gear box?

Which batteries are you using?
I'd say it would be very hard to get deep cycle glass mat batteries here??


Its something i would like to do when i get time, maybe a mark 1 golf (or VW rabbit as its know in the US)... i'd love to get a convertible one and convert it.

I've driven quite a few fully electric cars and they are quite cool... ideal for Ireland, cause most of the trips people make are quite short.

jackbauer

dilbert its a '98 mondeo. engine suffered a timing belt failure. To be honest i ahve not started the conversion as yet just got the car over christmas and am researching best options. I've two main choices right now the first being a 9" advanced dc motor , controller and 144v dc pack. this would be the conventional route and has the advantage of being tried and tested. I drive less than 20miles a day round trip to work so range would be more than adeqoute. my other option is to use a standard industrial 3 phase ac motor , standard industrial inverter/controller and a high voltage pack (approx 500vdc). This last option has the advantages of being off the shelf (even in ireland!) and easy regen braking.

not as difficult as you may think in getting the batts. deepcycle agm vrla batts are use throughout the emergency lighting industry for static inverter systems. I have a contact in the industry. BPC batteries are available in the uk. I have 2 x 12v 150ah. Very interested to hear your experiences dilbert. my main concern at the minute is insurance/nct etc as i'm going to get a lot of blank faces!

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

dilbert its a '98 mondeo. engine suffered a timing belt failure. To be honest i ahve not started the conversion as yet just got the car over christmas and am researching best options. I've two main choices right now the first being a 9" advanced dc motor , controller and 144v dc pack. this would be the conventional route and has the advantage of being tried and tested. I drive less than 20miles a day round trip to work so range would be more than adeqoute. my other option is to use a standard industrial 3 phase ac motor , standard industrial inverter/controller and a high voltage pack (approx 500vdc). This last option has the advantages of being off the shelf (even in ireland!) and easy regen braking.

not as difficult as you may think in getting the batts. deepcycle agm vrla batts are use throughout the emergency lighting industry for static inverter systems. I have a contact in the industry. BPC batteries are available in the uk. I have 2 x 12v 150ah. Very interested to hear your experiences dilbert. my main concern at the minute is insurance/nct etc as i'm going to get a lot of blank faces!

Yea i guess glass mat batteries would be quite popular for UPS's, as lead acid batteries which are in static situations suffer from segmentation ( i think that's what its called ) as they are just sitting there, not rattling around in a car...

Its a difficult decision whether to go down the AC or DC route for the traction motor. If you could do an AC system it would be cool, as the motor should be good for ever, if its sized appropriately. Your problem might be finding a charger to generate the 500V for the battery pack. But with a 500V battery pack + inverter your cables would be quite small, another big advantage. There is obviously the danger with running 500V around the chassis.

The Advanced DC motors are good, but the mondeo might be quite heavy to be pulled by one. These motors give off a fair bit of heat. Were you thinking of using a Series or a SepEx motor? With both there will probably be a few issues with getting the required speed range out of the motor, you'll have to field weaken at higher motor speeds. Theres a good chance you'll be able to regeneratively brake a SepEx motor.

The advantage of the Advance DC motor is that you'll probably be able to get an adapter plate + coupler off the shelf for it. You'll then have to align and drill this to match the gear box.

I have no answers to your tax / insurance questions, as i've never delt with this in ireland. Atleast you wouldn't fail the NCT on emissions

jackbauer

not sure about the control method as yet. was looking at series as the most simple. I think the 9" adc or warp9 motor would give a good performance at 144v and the stuff is readilly available at least in the states. i'm not glued to the mondeo it just popped up locally over the holiday for a few quid. my aim is to convert an "average" 4 door car as i just cant stand the sight and performance of some of the "production" evs such as the reva etc. its not going to be an overnight project for sure!

best example i have seen so far is on youtube here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83_Zig2vZlQ
this guy did a fairly standard car with little knowledge and only diy shop tools.
I would be able to make the adaptor plate myself.
looking for about 40mile range and 50-60mph top speed which from what i see so far is easilly achievable.

the ac drive idea is very tempting but at present i'm inclined to go for the dc drive as i know it works.
seems to me most conversions are done in america and oz with few to none in europe.

Mr.Diagnostic

Interesting thread.

I wonder if it is viable from a financial point of view?
Another thread on here about a dead Punto that needs an engine is a perfect example of the availability of cheap cars to covert.
Any idea of the material cost involved?

jackbauer

the cars are very easy to source. mondeo is in good condition only 3 owners and a nearly new set of tyres for 250 euro. with the weak us dolar the conversion for dc 144v roughly works out at the following:

motor 1k
controller 1k
batts 1k

call it 5 grand all in. i havent done any maths regarding the time/miles needed to get that cost back as i dont really care! the agm batts will last 10 years in moderate use and couple that to the drop off in maintenance costs for the car. ie no oil , filters , belts etc etc. i'm not at all scared of the work/process its just the red tape may kill it before i undo one bolt so i'm checking that out in full before getting started.

jackbauer

this example is good but a bit basic:
http://vow2.21.fo*****.com/viewtopic.php?t=10

the ev conversion suffers a great deal if one tries to cut a lot of corners /save a few pence from what i've seen thus far.

Mr.Diagnostic

Link not working, language filter seems to have picked it up

jackbauer

try this:
http://www.vow2.co.uk/ecar/ecar.htm

jackbauer

i think a series would motor and higher voltage would push the performance much higher on that conversion

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

the cars are very easy to source. mondeo is in good condition only 3 owners and a nearly new set of tyres for 250 euro. with the weak us dolar the conversion for dc 144v roughly works out at the following:

motor 1k
controller 1k
batts 1k

call it 5 grand all in. i havent done any maths regarding the time/miles needed to get that cost back as i dont really care! the agm batts will last 10 years in moderate use and couple that to the drop off in maintenance costs for the car. ie no oil , filters , belts etc etc. i'm not at all scared of the work/process its just the red tape may kill it before i undo one bolt so i'm checking that out in full before getting started.

You may also want to factor in the cost of a decent battery charger. Also a 144V->12V converter for your auxiliaries...

The other big thing is the adapter plate & coupling that blots to the gear box, there are companies that sell these for specific gear boxes. The coupling seems to be the week part of any system. The alignment of these has to be spot on, otherwise the bearings in the motor will not last very long...

I think for most EV's they just leave the gear box in 3rd gear all the time.

In the link you posted it looks like he's using a fairly small DC motor. Brigs and Stratton make a similar small motor, would only really be power full enough to drive a small car like a fiat chinqucehto or scheuento... we used a small brigs and stratton DC motor in a french micro-car, have pics of it some where, i'll try dig them out, it worked really well.

I saw you were considering a Series motor, this would have lots of torque to get you off the line, but you'll get no-reg and need contractors to reverse it. Also you'll need to perform field weakening to get it to higher speeds. Also you'd be looking at a 500A or 750A DC controller to get it moving. If you did want such a motor i would not buy it new, i'd try with all the material handling people, these are very common in fork lift trucks.

If i was spending that amount of money on components, id try go down the AC route, try get a second hand AC induction motor, these things last for ever... also try get a second hand inverter.

DublinDilbert

Found the picture of the french "micro-car" we convertered, using the brigs and stratton motor, its attached.

DublinDilbert

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

Interesting thread.

I wonder if it is viable from a financial point of view?
Another thread on here about a dead Punto that needs an engine is a perfect example of the availability of cheap cars to covert.
Any idea of the material cost involved?

Punto might be a nice size for a conversion.... you'd have to look at where you can locate the batteries.... Also if you can buy and adapter plate / coupling for it...

I've always fancied doing a mark 1 golf, cause lots of people in the states have converted them and there's no shortage of information on converting them, if you search under VW rabbit. A convertible one would be even nicer. I heard recently that they are still making these in South Africa, would be nice as they would be RHD also

jackbauer

myself i dont consider 5k a lot of money to spend on a car / ev conversion. its peanuts compared to what people here spend on cars these days. i can get the ac drive bits almost locally but am just a bit worried about it not doing the job. the series dc has the advantage of simplicity in my opinion. The gearbox would take care of the speeds. the guy on youtube uses 2nd and 3rd. adaptor plate is no problem as i have the necessary equipment to manufacture it. on that note if you or anyone else need one let me know!

i like the way the guy used the fenner coupling on the citroen conversion as it take the critical allignment out of the equation. at least to the odd millimetre.
at the end of the day i'll just have to take the plunge and find out! what would be great would be if others in ireland were to take it up.

jackbauer

regards the dc-dc converter i might couple the 12v alternator to the motor tailshaft. might as i know the arguments against!

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

regards the dc-dc converter i might couple the 12v alternator to the motor tailshaft. might as i know the arguments against!

In theory it would work, but as you probably know the only problem is when your stopped in traffic, or in very slow moving traffic your alternator will not be turning at all.... I don't think 144V -> 12V converters are that expensive anyway...

The series motor will definitely work, i guess the main problem will be lack of control ability... Also the start up currents will be very big... For Series DC motor controllers you'd want to look at SevCon, Curtis and Navitas.

The AC route is not easy either, for example you should be able to power up a lot of mains Inverters off a DC battery pack and get that bit to work quite well... most standard mains inverters will not do regenerative breaking as they have no where to put the power... i believe some high end inverters are capable of chopping the energy back into the AC supply lines.

jackbauer

yeh i'm looking at a curtis controller. i think some of the controllers tap the link between the arm and field for extra control?

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

yeh i'm looking at a curtis controller. i think some of the controllers tap the link between the arm and field for extra control?

Thats actually for "plugging", which is a way of slowing a series motor down... the curits controller your looking at must have plugging diodes inside it...

"plugging" is kinda like regenerative braking, but you don't get any energy back from it.

From memory when plugging is required, the direction contractors on the field flip direction, and the controller PWM's the series field winding. The armature now acts like a generator and all of its current is passed through the Plugging diodes, which are now forward biased.... :rolleyes:

If the controller supports plugging i'd say it should also support a field weakening contractor. When this contractor pulls in, it will reduce the field current in the motor, hence decreasing it's back EMF, allowing the armature to take more current and accelerate.

Plugging would not be very useful on an electric vehicle as you don't change direction that many times.. its used a lot on fork lifts where all they do is go back and forth all day long...

jackbauer

from what i can see of the series dc conversions and controllers they only have a main on/off contactor fired from the ignition switch. mabey they do the feild weakining and switching with electronics? anyway thanks a lot for your input. will be nearer summer when i get into the real work.i'll probably put it on youtube!

i do think a higher voltage is key to getting the most performance and i'm aiming for something similar to the youtube guy in new zealand.

jackbauer

as an aside anyone else interested in evs on boards?

ninty9er

jackbauer wrote: »

as an aside anyone else interested in evs on boards?

I'd be interested in finding out more alright....are they friction charged or mains???

I'm considering converting my next car to bioethanol, more due to the long-term viability of having a secure fuel source with no short-term price fluctuation than anything else.

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

from what i can see of the series dc conversions and controllers they only have a main on/off contactor fired from the ignition switch. mabey they do the feild weakining and switching with electronics? anyway thanks a lot for your input. will be nearer summer when i get into the real work.i'll probably put it on youtube!

i do think a higher voltage is key to getting the most performance and i'm aiming for something similar to the youtube guy in new zealand.

Most of these series controllers are using for fork lifts, which most don't use field weakening, as they don't need the speed .. most series motor controllers have this facility anyway. They will all in general need a main line contactor, this is also for safety reasons, in case the motor controller fails this will drop open.

If you have any questions regarding series motors drop me a PM, as i used to design series motor controllers for a living.

I would love to convert an E30 BMW to electric if i had the time.

Mr.Diagnostic

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I would love to convert an E30 BMW to electric if i had the time.

I just happen to know where there is a mint E30 with a bad engine going cheap

jackbauer

a bm would be nice:) very strongly built car so no problem with batts.

jackbauer

the mrs wants an electric saxo:rolleyes:

jackbauer

Well its taken a while but the bauer ev is in progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbQQDAKpsxw

itarumaa

http://www.sahkoautot.fi/eng

This site might be usefull to someone.

derry

jackbauer wrote: »

Well its taken a while but the bauer ev is in progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbQQDAKpsxw

enjoyed the video
also
video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAtDzFfrWU&feature=related
specs for eletric motor

What costs for the electric motor looks to be DC / specs/costs for the electric controler / specs/costs for the battery combo

Any news on did you crack the problem on Insurance
I think last I saw electric cars were only 30 euros per year for tax


Me I am probably gonna wait to see how this eletric /petrol or deisel solution works

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/

and see if they will sell the kit to me direct .I know I have the abilty to fit it myself

The advantage is 72 volts and only 6 batteries of 120 to 200MHa probably best to do Glass mat lead acid which would suit my 1998 1000cc Susikii Swift .
Also The petrol or deisel engine remains in the car ready to use whenever wanted .

I already run the car on 50% E85 and 50% E5 petrol .The car can run on E85 pure but its piggy on it as I didnt change anything in the car like E85 retro kits or sparks or adjust the carb fuel flow

This Polsen combo looks like it will do 20 miles which is my average daily commute milage.

On weekends his can be a lot further making electric ranges cost benifit ratio less interesting and I dont want to run two cars one for the week and one for the WE

For real long jouneys like holidays to France I could remove batteries to get back boot space or rig them into trailer which I probably will use for long journeys to carry the camping gear surf board etc

Also when I scrap the car it is fairly easy to whip off the convertion and retro fit to another car which has the same diameter wheel size .


Problem is the VAT for importing the parts might make it very costly even if I source batteries in Europe

When do you hope to debut your car


Derry

jackbauer

Yeah I've solved most of the problems. Tax , insurance , nct. Tax is 31euro. My ev range is going to be about 30-40 miles and i'm also building a flex fuel (lpg , petrol , ethanol) range extender trailer for longer journeys. My daily commute is about 7 miles and I can charge at work so no problems. Advantage of the trailer is i'm not lugging about dead weight when driving on battery power. Total cost in the region of 3k.

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

Yeah I've solved most of the problems. Tax , insurance , nct. Tax is 31euro. My ev range is going to be about 30-40 miles and i'm also building a flex fuel (lpg , petrol , ethanol) range extender trailer for longer journeys. My daily commute is about 7 miles and I can charge at work so no problems. Advantage of the trailer is i'm not lugging about dead weight when driving on battery power. Total cost in the region of 3k.

Hi Jack,

what vehicle did you end up going with in the end?

what motor / control are you using?

jackbauer

Its a 96 bmw 316 compact. It turned up locally at a friends garage with a melted engine for the right money (200 euro). Controller is a 144v 500amp open source kit:
http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/

I'm using their control system but am substituting 2 1600v 600amp igbts in the power section as I have them to hand. The motor is an 80v compound wound ex forklift traction motor. Demo video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAtDzFfrWU

Its 50/50 shunt / series so will have good controlability and regen braking. I'm using a 96v pack of odyssey pc2150 agm batteries to get started.
http://www.jtmpower.ie/odyssey-battery-pc-2150.html

A really fun project so far:D

jackbauer

Just a few more videos of progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz3_K2lpldQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5ed50YqLNs

JHMEG

Nice work, keep it up.

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

Its a 96 bmw 316 compact. It turned up locally at a friends garage with a melted engine for the right money (200 euro). Controller is a 144v 500amp open source kit:
http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/

I'm using their control system but am substituting 2 1600v 600amp igbts in the power section as I have them to hand. The motor is an 80v compound wound ex forklift traction motor. Demo video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAtDzFfrWU

Its 50/50 shunt / series so will have good controlability and regen braking. I'm using a 96v pack of odyssey pc2150 agm batteries to get started.
http://www.jtmpower.ie/odyssey-battery-pc-2150.html

A really fun project so far:D

looks very good...

I've never tried regening a compound motor before, do the two field windings not try "fight" each other? as the current is now going the opposite direction in the series series winding? or do you short out the series field?

jackbauer

Game plan is to switch out the series winding during regen and connect the armature to the pack (via a large diode) and juice the shunt winding with 96v or more. Should be ok to do this as it will be only for short bursts during deceleration.

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

Game plan is to switch out the series winding during regen and connect the armature to the pack (via a large diode) and juice the shunt winding with 96v or more. Should be ok to do this as it will be only for short bursts during deceleration.

Right, thats what i was thinking about the re-gen side of things...

The problem there is your not going to be able to re-gen very well down to low-ish motor speeds....

I would use a 2 quadrant chopper (high and lowside switching) on the armature/series field and use a contractor to short out the series field at various stages...

jackbauer

Thats a possibility I may end up using. I'm just going to get the basic controller up and running first then worry about the regen topology. The forklift motors are very plentyfull even in Ireland so its a good option in my opinion. Saves ridiculous import duties on an adc or warp motor (which are actually just beefed up forklift motors anyway!).

I did get the forklift controller but its scr based.

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

Thats a possibility I may end up using. I'm just going to get the basic controller up and running first then worry about the regen topology. The forklift motors are very plentyfull even in Ireland so its a good option in my opinion. Saves ridiculous import duties on an adc or warp motor (which are actually just beefed up forklift motors anyway!).

I did get the forklift controller but its scr based.

Yea the Advanced DC motors would cost a fortune between shipping + duty...

Ahhhh an old SCR controller, apparently they were great for keeping the fork lift drivers warm when going in and out of freezers! They also PWM at such a very low frequency that the ripple current is massive, and that's all just wasted I^2 R in the motor....

Yea your right to worry about the re-gen later, you have to be carefully when re-gening anyway as you probably know, not to blow the controller due to over voltage or over current.

jackbauer

No doubt i'll be back annoying you with questions later! I don't like the idea of using loads of mosfets in the power stage so am going with some mega power igbts.

DublinDilbert

its very hard to heat sink lots of mosfets reliably...

the IGBT's will be great from a voltage point of view as they are typically a hundreds volts....

zilog_jones

Interesting stuff, I've never heard of anyone doing EV conversions in Ireland before.

How do you deal with the hydraulic brakes and power steering?

DublinDilbert

zilog_jones wrote: »

Interesting stuff, I've never heard of anyone doing EV conversions in Ireland before.

How do you deal with the hydraulic brakes and power steering?

For the brakes you can just install a small electric vacuum pump / accumulator, very common to do this in muscle cars in the US.

jackbauer

I'm using a 12vdc vacuum pump , vac switch and a 1 litre aluminium sports drink bottle as a resevoir. this provides 22inhg of vacuum to run the brake servo. The abs has its own ecu and works as normal. Power steering is simply an electric pas pump from a toyota mr2.

I'd like to be proven wrong but i don't think anyone in Ireland has done this. Shame.

woodenboxer

jackbauer wrote: »

I'm using a 12vdc vacuum pump , vac switch and a 1 litre aluminium sports drink bottle as a resevoir. this provides 22inhg of vacuum to run the brake servo. The abs has its own ecu and works as normal. Power steering is simply an electric pas pump from a toyota mr2.

I'd like to be proven wrong but i don't think anyone in Ireland has done this. Shame.

Hi Jackbauer,

I am too, at the start of a EV conversion, and it has been done before in Ireland in 2007, this is where i got the idea and for the last two years been meaning to get around to it, i bought my doner car aug 2008, but never got chance to convert it as i got married, bulit a house and waiting to build the garage for the past year, now as winter comes i am going to turn my hand at building the controller that i have designed, then start on the car. you can check out my progress on the website http://www.evireland.com, the big question that i never got around to finding out is NCT and Tax and Insurance in Ireland? what were your finding on these?

Keep up the good work

jackbauer

Thats great news. Conversions are the way to go. With the auto manufacturers its always "next year" or 20this and 20that. I'd recommend not reinventing the wheel with your own controller design and have a look at the open source kit now available:
http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/

Mine arrived in the country on friday last only to be nabbed by customs who want their pound of flesh. Apparently i'll be lucky to get it by friday:rolleyes:

I have letters from nct and tax office to the effect that its not a big deal. pm me if you want more details. Insurance is a bit tricky but i have a guy working on that end.

Could this be the first meeting of the Irish ev association?

woodenboxer

jackbauer wrote: »

Thats great news. Conversions are the way to go. With the auto manufacturers its always "next year" or 20this and 20that. I'd recommend not reinventing the wheel with your own controller design and have a look at the open source kit now available:
http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/

Mine arrived in the country on friday last only to be nabbed by customs who want their pound of flesh. Apparently i'll be lucky to get it by friday:rolleyes:

I have letters from nct and tax office to the effect that its not a big deal. pm me if you want more details. Insurance is a bit tricky but i have a guy working on that end.

Could this be the first meeting of the Irish ev association?

Hi,

Yes i've see and watched the progress with what paul is doing but i believe the one that i'm building is far easier and cheaper to make,it's based on a curtis controller with my own design. i want to build every part of the conversion if i can! i would be interested in one of those motors, they look and good job? what HP is it?

Cheers

jackbauer

I did a demo and details of the motor here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAtDzFfrWU

the problem with forklift traction motors is that they are big. This one is 11.5" diameter. Thats not a huge issue on a rwd car but on fwd it would foul the driveshaft on the engine side of the gearbox. You could try a forklift pump motor but they tend to be shunt wound.

DublinDilbert

jackbauer wrote: »

I did a demo and details of the motor here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAtDzFfrWU

the problem with forklift traction motors is that they are big. This one is 11.5" diameter. Thats not a huge issue on a rwd car but on fwd it would foul the driveshaft on the engine side of the gearbox. You could try a forklift pump motor but they tend to be shunt wound.

From memory the pump motor is typically about half the power of the traction motor in most forklifts

woodenboxer

jackbauer wrote: »

I did a demo and details of the motor here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAtDzFfrWU

the problem with forklift traction motors is that they are big. This one is 11.5" diameter. Thats not a huge issue on a rwd car but on fwd it would foul the driveshaft on the engine side of the gearbox. You could try a forklift pump motor but they tend to be shunt wound.

This is what i was thinking, anything over the 9" mark is not great for a fwd as you said! may have to buy the advanced DC series wound 9" motor for my conversion, i see that they are now stocked in the UK so don't have to worry about import duty!:D