Airsoft Skirmish Sites Insurance

ditpaintball

Just a quick question about this. Do you guys check to see the insurance cert of a site that you go to, or do you bother.

I heard a rumor that some sites may be operating with out even public liability.

Blazher

ditpaintball wrote: »

Just a quick question about this. Do you guys check to see the insurance cert of a site that you go to, or do you bother.

I heard a rumor that some sites may be operating with out even public liability.

Go question,

Has anyone seen HRTA's?

Dr_Pepper

ditpaintball wrote: »

Just a quick question about this. Do you guys check to see the insurance cert of a site that you go to, or do you bother.

Never thought about it so never looked.

Blazher wrote:

Go question,

Has anyone seen HRTA's?

Tbh i think you'd have to ask HRTA not the public.....

CrazyRabbit

HRTA is covered. In fact it's the insurance company that prevents under 14's from playing at HRTA.

ditpaintball

Have you seen the insurance cert though?

Blazher

ditpaintball wrote: »

Have you seen the insurance cert though?

Thats what i was asking,

And the reason i am asking the public is because anyone that plays there should have seen it??


I was just wondering,

Hivemind187

Blazher:

Really?

Exactly why should they make private, financially sensitive information available to the general public?

Have you an issue with their safety protocols?

If there is a specific site whose insurance info you wish to see you should contact them off this list privately and I'm sure something can be arranged.

Hivemind187

OP: I generally wouldnt both unless it was a site I already had suspicions about. The reason being that the Airsoft projectiles are so far below the dangerous threshold its nearly redundant. People falling and breaking their leg etc would only be an issue if there was something added to the site that waas not properly maintained or somehow deliberatly negligent in its safety mesaures.

There are a few objects that you could hurt yourself on but only if you werent using them in a common-sense safety manner. At least at HRTA.

Same thing up at Crossfire. There are a few places you can badly mash yourself but you would have to be being particularly dense at the time or doing something which in and of itself would be considered dangerous.

Boston

Paul has said in the past that HRTA has public liability insurance, and I see no reason not to take his word on that.

Masada

who really cares anyway,. you put yourself into the situation where you might, on the off chance get hurt, you have far more chance of being hurt by falling or tripping rather than from any projectiles and you could fall anywhere, only difference being that you specifically put yourself in an environment when airsofting, where you have to run and duck on uneven ground.,
If i fall and break my ankle at HRTA its not their fault, its mine.

NakedDex

I agree, if I hit myself of a rock, broke an ankle or what have you at HRTA, I would count it as my own fault. But there are other people out there who aren't so honest and who are more than willing to sue if they should so much as stub a toe. That's why insurance is always required.

I too have never seen a cert but I have never asked because I would count it as private site information to be held, in confidence, between the insurer and the insuree. I would gladly take Paul's word on it that the site is insured. God willing, I'll never need to find out whether it is or not.

Blazher

Sorry no i dont agree at all,

If i am going to pay to use the land for a game i want to be covered, Its like when i go to the range,

if you want to be stupid and dont care if you are covered! then thats you,

And yes it should be made PUBLIC!!! Because on every Range i have been on its the first thing you see when you walk in the door!

ED E

Blazher wrote: »

Sorry no i dont agree at all,

If i am going to pay to use the land for a game i want to be covered, Its like when i go to the range,

if you want to be stupid and dont care if you are covered! then thats you,

And yes it should be made PUBLIC!!! Because on every Range i have been on its the first thing you see when you walk in the door!

But thats a completely different sittuation. This is not a shooting range(Presume thats what you mean by "the range") its an Airsoft venue. Two very different things.

Hivemind187

Blazher wrote: »

Sorry no i dont agree at all,

If i am going to pay to use the land for a game i want to be covered, Its like when i go to the range,

if you want to be stupid and dont care if you are covered! then thats you,

And yes it should be made PUBLIC!!! Because on every Range i have been on its the first thing you see when you walk in the door!

Thats shooting NOT airsoft.

Frankly, if you are incompetent enough to need to see insurance before entering a site then perhaps you might consider not play and putting the rest of us at risk.

But thats just MY opinion.

Lemming

Site insurance only becomes an issue if the site-owner or staff has been deemed negligent and injury has occurred as a direct result of negligence.

For example, someone goes onto the field with inadequate eye-protection and is allowed play (or play is not halted and the offender removed post-haste once discovered) and then sustains an eye injury. Or the site owners build something and you sustain injury as a direct result, e.g. a fort and part of it falls and hits you or something.

You sprinting across a field and slipping down the bank of a ditch and messing up your ankle or some such is your own problem.

NakedDex

Blazher wrote: »

if you want to be stupid and dont care if you are covered! then thats you,

I never said I don't care, I said I trust Pauls word that HRTA are in full compliance with the law to operate such a site. Now if you want to take issue with that, perhaps bringing it up at the site to the owner and asking them to see a cert is the course of action to take. Not implying that I'm stupid for not having done so already.

Tigger

why does this thread not surprise me

can someone plesse explain to me why airsoft is getting a neghative vibe from paintball

this is not the first time i've seen it

Masada

my advice to you would be,
Special off on bubble wrap/laminate floor underlay at B&Q, alternatively cotton wool but harder to come across in large quantities. wrap yourself up, hide under the stairs and job done. your nice and safe.,
other than that, a shooting range is a high risk environment due to live ammunition, Insurance is justified there as your life may be in the hands of others wile you are there.,
I once did a BMX jump off of a shed and bashed my chin on the handlebars of the bike. Maybe i should sue dublin corperation for that too.,Hmmm, tempting.,

Hivemind187

rbd wrote: »

why does this thread not surprise me

can someone plesse explain to me why airsoft is getting a neghative vibe from paintball

this is not the first time i've seen it

Its not. DIT was asking a question and I presume it is related to his work with the IPPA.

We get the flak from yet another shooter in this case.

ditpaintball

all i asked was a question, and i dont see any body from paintball point of view being 'negative'

It is a valid question.

ditpaintball

Lemming wrote: »

Site insurance only becomes an issue if the site-owner or staff has been deemed negligent and injury has occurred as a direct result of negligence........

Would that not be the 'lack' of site insurance. I am no expert, but as far as i know if people are paying to come onto your land then you need at least public liability?

Lets face it, we are not talking about the players here, paintball players and airsoft players alike know the risks and if you trip of fall, so be it. But its the public who do not sign a waiver or anything like that that are at risk.

And hivemind was right, it is something to do with IPPA relaated work.

Tigger

ditpaintball wrote: »

all i asked was a question, and i dont see any body from paintball point of view being 'negative'

It is a valid question.

i have been to ice rinks i never asked to see the insurance cert should i have?

i have flown on planes again never asked to see their paperwork : thinking omn it now i was on a bus earlier and not only did i not ask to see the insurance documemnts but i failed to breathalise the driver and inspect the tyres
this is obviously a negative comment as he is rumor mongering with this "i heard a rumnor stuff"
ditpaintball if you wanna make an accusation thatb someone is not fulfilling a lergality then say it out if not don't start with yer hersay and speculation

hivemind: i have no idea what yer post ment please exp[lain

Hivemind187

Luckily there is no chance of a member of the public getting injured on the site. HRTA is too remote to be accessed by the average wandering member of the public. Its also surrounded by private land so anyone who came on to the field from an unexpected direction would likely have been tresspassing in the first place, if this was thte case should they enter the play area it ceases to be the responsibility of the proprietor to protect the goon.

Regarding the specific policy that HRTA has I think you'd be best off pm'ing nonex.

Hivemind187

rbd wrote: »

i have been to ice rinks i never asked to see the insurance cert should i have?

i have flown on planes again never asked to see their paperwork : thinking omn it now i was on a bus earlier and not only did i not ask to see the insurance documemnts but i failed to breathalise the driver and inspect the tyres
this is obviously a negative comment as he is rumor mongering with this "i heard a rumnor stuff"
ditpaintball if you wanna make an accusation thatb someone is not fulfilling a lergality then say it out if not don't start with yer hersay and speculation

hivemind: i have no idea what yer post ment please exp[lain

rbd, DIT didnt make any allegation, he is asking a legitimate question related to both Airsoft and Paintball. He hasnt the experience with Airsoft that we have so it is perfectly understandable that he might wonder how we organise insurance etc as opposed to the Paintballers.

I dont understand what it is about my post that you dont get. Blazher is a real steel shooter.

ditpaintball

rbd you are taking it out of context now.

I am not going to make any allegation on roumors or third hand information. How ever it led me to ask the questions and get more information. I am looking into getting personal insurance for paintball players who are on teams and go abroad and I am trying to get see what is currently covered by paintball sites (whom operate as firearm ranges believe it or not). Since airsoft devices are not fire arms, then no license is needed to operate such a site. So i am wondering about the 'what if' situation.

Is that more clear for you rbd? No one is attacking anyone.

Tigger

Hivemind187 wrote: »

rbd, DIT didnt make any allegation, he is asking a legitimate question related to both Airsoft and Paintball. He hasnt the experience with Airsoft that we have so it is perfectly understandable that he might wonder how we organise insurance etc as opposed to the Paintballers.

I dont understand what it is about my post that you dont get. Blazher is a real steel shooter.

that explains half of it

ippa stands for many things in treland irish photographers assoc.
something to do with happy orphans
i assume its irish paint something assosiciation
buit how thta makes whether we look for insurance certs a vaild question i dont know

here is how i feel a non passive agressive person woyud have approached the topic

pm to any and all airsoft site peeps : hello i was wondering for my photography association do you need / have insurance
yours sincerley
dave (he types like a dave)

NakedDex

Wow, I didn't know paintball sites were classed as firearm ranges. That actually adds a few things up in my head, and it makes sense given that markers are above 1J.

That has me thinking about people that go abroad for tourneys, would a special one off personal insurance be required, an annual one or could it possibly even be underwritten by travel insurance?

Lemming

ditpaintball wrote: »

Would that not be the 'lack' of site insurance. I am no expert, but as far as i know if people are paying to come onto your land then you need at least public liability?

Sorry, I meant it only becomes an issue when someone attempts to sue you, the site-owner, for negligence. The need for public liability insurance is, at the end of the day, to cover the victim of (actual) negligence for whatever costs (medical/loss-of-earnings, etc.) they incur as a result of said negligence.

At the other side of the scale it also protects the site-owner from being held personally responsible for compensation.

Very interesting moves with regards personal insurance for paintball players though. I'd be interested in hearing how that pans out if you don't mind?

Hivemind187

NakedDex wrote: »

Wow, I didn't know paintball sites were classed as firearm ranges. That actually adds a few things up in my head, and it makes sense given that markers are above 1J.

That has me thinking about people that go abroad for tourneys, would a special one off personal insurance be required, an annual one or could it possibly even be underwritten by travel insurance?

I dunno but there are a number of insurance companies in England that will cover Paintballers as individuals. What extent that coverage has I dont know.

I did a little digging about six months ago and found it very difficult to get anyone to quote for airsofters. Since most companies and organisations consider it a hobby rather than even a sport they dont cover it. Semantics is a bitch.

Tigger

ditpaintball wrote: »

rbd you are taking it out of context now.

I am not going to make any allegation on roumors or third hand information. How ever it led me to ask the questions and get more information. I am looking into getting personal insurance for paintball players who are on teams and go abroad and I am trying to get see what is currently covered by paintball sites (whom operate as firearm ranges believe it or not). Since airsoft devices are not fire arms, then no license is needed to operate such a site. So i am wondering about the 'what if' situation.

Is that more clear for you rbd? No one is attacking anyone.

i'm not surprised that paintball markers are treated as firearms fierce dangerous things indeedy ]

have you ever felt an airsoft bb hit even at point blank they only feel like a good flick from a finger noting like the whack you get in paintball

NakedDex

I wonder would the insurance companies that cover paintballers be interested in taking that up. I know I run just as much risk twisting an ankle or breaking an arm on an Irish site as I do on a foreign site but if I did travel abroad for a tourney it'd be nice to know my affairs were in order and any hospital funding easily covered should something happen, regardless of where I was.
I know and understand the Irish insurance system, but when things go foreign, there's more red tape, and I know I could do with less of that if things should go tits up

ditpaintball

rbd wrote: »

that explains half of it

ippa stands for many things in treland irish photographers assoc.

IPPA = Irish Paintball Players Association
IAA = Irish Airsoft Association



Paintball Markers are firearms because they have a muzzel energy of over 1J, so in the eyes of the Irish Law, they are firearms. Point blank shots happen all the time in paintball. Paintball sites 'should' be operating as a firearms range. That what the DOJ (Departmend of Justice) told me.



Travel insurance will not cover it i think. Most do not cover you if skiing for instance. Extra risk etc etc.

Personal insurance for paintballers in Ireland is non existance at the mo. Country Side Alliance will not cover paintballers, even though they cover 'real steel' shooters. Its the image of paintballers actually aiming at other people and all that. For tournies UK run by the UKPSF, UK paintball governing body:


£5 million Civil Liability cover
Personal Accident : Death and Capital Benefits £50,000
Temporary Total Disablement £50.00 per week (14 days deferment period)
Cover is for players playing at a UKPSF sanctioned event*.

Masada

rbd wrote:

i'm not surprised that paintball markers are treated as firearms fierce dangerous things indeedy ]

have you ever felt an airsoft bb hit even at point blank they only feel like a good flick from a finger noting like the whack you get in paintball

well, that might be a little strong. Paintball isnt really that bad at all. I was shot an awful lot with the things and its no enjoyable experience but its not as bad as people think/expect it to be.,



on another note, the IAA is also the Irish Autism Association,

NakedDex

vtec wrote: »

the IAA is also the Irish Autism Association,

Not to mention the Irish Aviation Authority. Too many TLA's these days.

ditpaintball wrote: »

Personal insurance for paintballers in Ireland is non existance at the mo. Country Side Alliance will not cover paintballers, even though they cover 'real steel' shooters. Its the image of paintballers actually aiming at other people and all that. For tournies UK run by the UKPSF, UK paintball governing body:


£5 million Civil Liability cover
Personal Accident : Death and Capital Benefits £50,000
Temporary Total Disablement £50.00 per week (14 days deferment period)
Cover is for players playing at a UKPSF sanctioned event*.

Interesting. What's the premium on that if you don't mind me asking? If that was something I could get for airsoft tournies in the UK, perhaps via the UKARA or for UKARA approved tournies, I would likely take it.

Hivemind187

vtec wrote: »

on another note, the IAA is also the Irish Autism Association,

Oh ... and what are you trying to say?

... come to think of it I havent seen NOIP in a while ....:eek:

Masada

lol.,

ditpaintball

£20 for english players. Not 100% if it covers competions out side the uk though.

http://www.nationalpaintballclub.co.uk/

kdouglas

ditpaintball: i think a pm to some of the site operators on here would be best to answer your original question

everyone else: no need to jump to conclusions and attack someone, always, i repeat ALWAYS think twice about what you post and give someone the benefit of the doubt, any time someone who is a known paintballer or real steel shooter posts on here they get a really bad reaction and peoples posting styles/attitudes change completely towards those individuals, it's completely unnecessary

ill leave the thread open since it is now heading more towards a general discussion about insurance, but no more of the hostile bull from the first page or so please

Blazher

ditpaintball wrote: »

I am looking into getting personal insurance for paintball players who are on teams and go abroad and I am trying to get see what is currently covered by paintball sites (whom operate as firearm ranges believe it or not). Since airsoft devices are not fire arms, then no license is needed to operate such a site. So i am wondering about the 'what if' situation..

Hello mate,

If your looking for cover i would be more then happy to pass on some info to you,

I have a Personal cover for shooting that covers everything from hurting yourself to hurting other people or land/prop etc,

There are a few types of cover starting at 8 euro to 60 euro a year,

Nearly every shooter i know is using this company,



@ Hivemind187,

We get the flak from yet another shooter in this case.

Stop talking crap mate, When you know what the hell your talking about come back, Most of us " Shooters " have to do safety courses in handling and firing in a safe controlled manner, At the end of the day Hive, What ever way you look at it, Airsoft is a sport were you are using weapons that CAN really hurt someone,

ditpaintball wrote: »

Would that not be the 'lack' of site insurance. I am no expert, but as far as i know if people are paying to come onto your land then you need at least public liability?

Lets face it, we are not talking about the players here, paintball players and airsoft players alike know the risks and if you trip of fall, so be it. But its the public who do not sign a waiver or anything like that that are at risk.

Yes, thats what i was trying to put a cross,

No one plans on getting hurt but **** happens and PEOPLE do get hurt,

From my understanding if someone is going to let the public use their land/Track "Playing Field" for gain "ie Payment " they need to have some type of cover, Its the same with GO karts, Horse riding, Swimming, Quazar and SHOOTING!.

Masada

Blazher wrote: »

@ Hivemind187, Stop talking crap mate, When you know what the hell your talking about come back, Most of us " Shooters " have to do safety courses in handling and firing in a safe controlled manner, At the end of the day Hive, What ever way you look at it, Airsoft is a sport were you are using weapons that CAN really hurt someone,

Hivemind is the vice chair of the IAA and its silly to say he doesnt know what he's talking about, He represents us as IAA members and does a decent job of it. Also if is generally frowned apon to refer to airsoft guns as "Weapons", they are not weapons, there primary function isnt to harm anyone or anything. they can however be used in a manner which will cause injury, Just like a golf club, iron bar, pack of skittles etc.,
If you are really interested in playing airsoft then your experience with real steel will benefit you with your training in handling etc but comparing the hazzards of airsoft to real steal is far from accurate.,

I.A.S. Ltd.

Airsoft is a sport were you are using weapons that CAN really hurt someone,

Lol, do you know anything about Airsoft?!

Blazher

I.A.S. Ltd. wrote: »

Airsoft is a sport were you are using weapons that CAN really hurt someone,

Lol, do you know anything about Airsoft?!

Great post mate,


Are you trying to say Airsoft would not hurt someone to the point were it would be classed as major ( Ie, Losing any Eye ) even if it's one in a million chance but the fact is it can happen,

vtec wrote: »

Hivemind is the vice chair of the IAA and its silly to say he doesnt know what he's talking about, He represents us as IAA members and does a decent job of it. Also if is generally frowned apon to refer to airsoft guns as "Weapons", they are not weapons, there primary function isnt to harm anyone or anything. they can however be used in a manner which will cause injury, Just like a golf club, iron bar, pack of skittles etc.,
If you are really interested in playing airsoft then your experience with real steel will benefit you with your training in handling etc but comparing the hazzards of airsoft to real steal is far from accurate.,

Well mate, with the reply he gave to my first post was a bit silly and the way he calls me a " Shooter " is funny,

As for him saying i am a risk to other Air Soft players is a silly thing to say,
But i am not in the mood to get in to whatever with someone like him,

PS:: If he is the

vice chair of the IAA

I fear for the sport

But back on topic

Public Insurance is a must as far as i know and i will look in to this tomorrow,

To clear something up, never at any point did i say anything bad about HRTA or any other site nor Paul, I simply asked if ANYONE had seen HRTA paperwork, I have been at HRTA and was well happy with the setup and Paul himself sound bloke,


In any case its the last thing il say on the matter, No point trying to have a talk about something as important as safety with people who are clearly

A > In la la land

B > Just down right stupid

or

C > Don't understand what they are doing (ie, playing a sport with out fully understanding what can or can't happen )


I fear its going to take something bad to happen to wake some people up to the fact that Public Insurance is important,

Masada

From your post in the other thread i see that you dont own an airsoft gun yet, this may explain your attitude on them as you arnt as familiar with them as you believe, thats not ment in a bad way but how can you have an such an opinion on something that you are not clued in on?.,

When he referred to you as a shooter, that just means you shoot real steal, not that your an armed robber or anything.,lol

Are you trying to say Airsoft would not hurt someone to the point were it would be classed as major ( Ie, Losing any Eye ) even if it's one in a million chance but the fact is it can happen,

one is a million chances are everywhere, a bus could mount the pavement tomorrow and kill me and theres nothing i can do to avoid that. nobody is allowed to play at HRTA without eye protection and there is no exceptions. there are no controls on the playing of golf which is far more dangerous that airsoft(even though it sounds strange). a golf ball can kill you and you are more likely to get a smack of a golfball in a game of golf that you would be to have a bb stuck in your eye after penetrating your eye protection in airsoft.,

Cheeky monkey

Tbh I dont think you can lose an eye with the legal limit here in Ireland but if you got shot in the eye chances are you wouldnt be able to focus it properly and mabye have to get glasses or corrective surgery

Masada

thats true neil, but would probably be the same if you got a paper aeroplane in the eye or even playing darts for example.
I think the 1J limit is put in place because its the highest energy level that wont penetrate an eyeball, not my info though, someone else said it to me.,

Hivemind187

Unfortunately for ditpaintball this thread has been hijacked as an excuse to rag on airsoft, the IAA and the players who are more experience/better educated about the game by individuals who havent been around for a wet week.

Request lock.

Edit: By the way, the 1joule limit is in place because of UK case law wihich, through ballistic testing, was able to show that energy in a great excess of 1 joule were required to penetrate human tissues. Functionally, an legally held airsoft device is incapable of causing some one to "lose an eye" or any one of thousands of other myths propagated by certain ranks.

Puding

an legally held airsoft device is incapable of causing some one to "lose an eye"

This is untrue airsoft devices are easily capable of damaging and eye beyond repair, the 1j limit is there as it is below that need to cause lethal injury, the 1J limit was sited in an English studym as at that power a airsoft projectile is unable to penetrate the tissue at the back of the eye and enter the brain and cause death.

Hivemind187

Puding wrote: »

This is untrue airsoft devices are easily capable of damaging and eye beyond repair, the 1j limit is there as it is below that need to cause lethal injury, the 1J limit was sited in an English studym as at that power a airsoft projectile is unable to penetrate the tissue at the back of the eye and enter the brain and cause death.

Really?

Where did you find that?

Legal definition of "lethal wound" is anything that causes greater than superficial damage - superficial is described as light bruising or grazing NOT penetration.

Thats according to the UK Metropolitan Police Ballisitcs team as cited in our originial press release.

Puding if you have verifiable information to the contrary I would really like to see it so that I can make the proper ammendments but I really dont think you do. The Choroid layer of the eye (the white bit) is a very tough fibrous material that I difficult to cut with a scalpel let alone penetrate with a 6mm plastic sphere, further, the Vitreous Humour of the eye (the eye goo) is thick and would greatly reduce the speed of any sphereical object entering it at the low levels of power generated by an AEG. The eye is sphereical so it would need to penetrate 2 choroid layers, then the back of the ocular cavity which whlie thin, is still bone supported by a half a pint or so of fluids and membranes which act as a shock absorber. This of course only applies if it dosnt hit the centre of the eye, because the lens of the eye is a hard glassy substance that is HUGELY resistant to impact.

The parts underlined I learned in Leaving Cert biology.

Edit: The level of energy required to do this is GREATLY in excess of 1joule.

Fallschirmjager

sniff sniff..yes its unmistakable, the faint odour of an agenda...do you smell it...??

now let me get the insults out first...
you fear for the sport...wow pretty impressive for someone with 35 posts...been here long have you..?
and before you go insulting people and our IAA rep who helped in dragging airsoft from nada to where it is today kicking and screaming..i think you need to read some of the old posts before you fire off. dont ye shooters work on trigger discipline?

yes you asked a serious question, yes shooters have it all sorted, we are all delighted for you here and i mean that as someone who used to shoot however, we are 12 months old here...so we are new and only starting and thanks for your suggestions.

we have continuous people on here with agendas. we are very suspicious when someone comes in here blasting rockets left and right without spending an hour to find the FACTS. With respect in the last 2 weeks, you are the second shooter to come in here with a rather dismissive attitude and one has to wonder why?

now if you want to find out about public liability, why not contact the SITE OWNERS. This is a boards site on airsoft that they post here...YOU NEED TO CONTACT THE OWNERS.

we have enough issues to deal with and if you like to help and have suggestions we are all ears, but coming on here like you did, IMHO isnt the way to do it.

so do you want to help look upwards, join the IAA and show us how it should be done...otherwise you are just another person moaning...quite frankly and i include myself here, we have more then enough to go around at the moment.

Puding

Will legal in the uk the limit is not 1J but 1.35j but most sites state the 1j limit for safety because of the info i stated, them the 1j limit in Ireland was put in place i believe that these study s where used as reference, i will drag up the info that im quoting but I've read and come across it a number of times.

Edit: stand corrected as normal info is miss quoted all over the net so will just quote the info its self.

this relates to the uk and nothing to do with ireland

---

The following excerpts are from the United Kingdom Parliament's "Principles of firearms control", Home Affairs Select Committee Second Report, 6 April 2000, expound on the level of danger involved with low-energy projectiles:

"25. The Firearms Act 1968 defines a firearm "a lethal barreled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other :missile can be discharged".[51] In this context, a "lethal weapon" means a weapon capable of firing a projectile with sufficient :force to inflict more than a trivial injury, i.e. with a force sufficient to puncture the skin.[52] The force with which a firearm :is able to deliver a projectile is normally expressed in terms of the kinetic energy it generates at its muzzle—the "muzzle energy". :This energy is normally expressed in units of foot-pounds (ft·lbf) or joules (J).[53]

"26. The Home Office and the Forensic Science Service considers that the lowest level of muzzle energy capable of inflicting a penetrating wound is one foot pound force (1.35 J): below these power levels, weapons are "incapable of penetrating even vulnerable parts of the body, such as the eye".[54] However, more recent analysis by the Forensic Science Agency for Northern Ireland has indicated that a more reasonable assessment of the minimum muzzle energy required to inflict a penetrating wound lies between 2.2 and 3.0 ft·lbf (3 to 4 J).[55] We will deal more fully with this discrepancy at paragraphs 123 to 130 below."

"123. The power level at and above which an air weapon is considered a firearm in law is presently set at 1 ft·lbf. However, we note above that the Forensic Science Agency of Northern Ireland has more recently assessed the power level at which a barreled weapon is capable of inflicting a lethal wound as between 2.2 and 3 ft·lbf, and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has proposed that the law relating to firearms in Northern Ireland be amended to take this into account.[201]"

On another document also regarding firearms, "The Eleventh Annual Report of the Firearms Consultative Committee", the penetration levels lies between 2 and 3 J based on a research for US Army and DiMaio's work in "Minimal Velocities Necessary for Perforation of Skin by Air Pellets and Bullets, Journal of Forensic Sciences".

---

But i still think its dangerous to be quoting that you can not lose and eye,

Hivemind187

The documentation you refer to is citing "tissue" such as skin. NOT THE EYE.

The Choroid layer is hugely more resistant to impact because it is a tough, fibrous ball filled with a thick liquid.

I will repeat, SCIENCE says you will not lose an eye at 1joule of IMPACT energy. Which means that since BB's lose power the instant they leave the muzzle it is safe to assume that a legally operated Airsoft is scientificially incapable of "taking out an eye".

Edit: Do you not think that we have copies of that piece of legalese Pudding? Again, the Irish Law is BASED on the finding of the UK case law in which these energy levels were assessed.

2nd Edit: I can't believe how far off topic we have gone. Lock request.