Greens plan to introduce "Carbon Levy" on Motorists

niceirishfella

hi,

I saw on the news last night Gormley stating there will be a green levy introduced in the budget for 2009.

Does anyone know in what shape or form will this take to hit our pockets? Is there going to be a new and additional tax on petrol and diesel?

Anyone any ideas?

Henry Ford III

If they follow the UK model it'll be extra tax on fuel.

endplate

Carbon tax my arse (Anyone remember how the millimium bug was going to destroy us and look how that turned out)

Yeah it's possibly how they are going to stab the motorist in the back again. From the 1/7/08 a lot of people will switch to diesel cos of the potential savings but I'll bet there'll be a levy put onto diesel more so than petrol to account for the loss of revenue.

I think the greens will be like the PD's come the next election ie dessimated

ninty9er

carbon tax is an economy wide tax not just a motoring tax. Chippers will have to pay it on their emissions etc... households on their coal and electricity bills.

Motoring tax my arse:rolleyes:

E92

An extra tax is hardly the thing we need given that we already pay stupendous amounts of road tax, VRT etc and the economy is taking a massive downturn. If fuel tax is going up, then there had better be a reduction in VRT and road tax.

I presume this is an additional tax, right?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

TheBazman

I'm sure they will sort out the public transport problems fully first so that I ( along with many others) will have a realistic way of getting to work on time other than taking the car!

ninty9er

The purpose of a carbon tax is to offset the €100m (approx) in fines that we face each year for exceeding our carbon limits. We can buy carbon credits, but it works out the same.

The best way (and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves) to affect human behaviour in 2008 in Ireland; is not alternatives but a hit in the wallet. I wouldn't take the bus to town if I could avoid it. It stops at the end of the road, but comes at 20 minute intervals and takes another 20 to get there with other stops. I could walk in 15 or drive and park in 5. I'd prefer to pay than wait. The bus service is fine for school runs and pensioners in no hurry. I prefer my creature comforts and being able to drop stuff back to the car as I shop rather than lug it around.

I still prefer to walk, but the rain puts paid to that!!

NO other taxes will be reduced. Economics defines a tax (among other things) as a way to disincentivise unfavourable habits, reducing other taxes would negate the whole point.

I see it more likely that it will affect home heating and industry slightly more than motorists.

That said, petrol/diesel will probably have an increase in excise of 10-15%

Polluter pays....boards members here will be delighted:D:D

jhegarty

ninty9er wrote: »

It stops at the end of the road, but comes at 20 minute intervals and takes another 20 to get there with other stops.

Well isn't that nice for you....a bus last stopped down the road from my house some time in the 1970s.....

E92

ninty9er wrote: »

NO other taxes will be reduced. Economics defines a tax (among other things) as a way to disincentivise unfavourable habits, reducing other taxes would negate the whole point.

Polluter pays....boards members here will be delighted:D:D

So it's an extra tax then.

Economics will also tell you that taxes make markets less efficient and that means companys make less and sell for less but the consumer ends up paying more. Anyway the Enviornment is an externality as far as economics is concerned.

I think I speak for most of us here when I say that we want an additional fuel tax instead of VRT, not in addition to VRT.

L1011

jhegarty wrote: »

Well isn't that nice for you....a bus last stopped down the road from my house some time in the 1970s.....

Pah, 1970s... The last time there was public transport to the nearest supermarket from where my parents house is was 1953, when the Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway closed, but that still required a 3 mile walk and a boat

JHMEG

With the economy slowing, unemployment rising, oil now over $100 a barrel, it looks like the govt will plough us straight into recession.. at times like this taxes need to be reduced...

E92

But sure this is the Government that has "experience" and is "good at managing the economy":rolleyes:!

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

With the economy slowing, unemployment rising, oil now over $100 a barrel, it looks like the govt will plough us straight into recession.. at times like this taxes need to be reduced...

Well that is pretty much what the greens want. Recession = no builidng = fewer cars sold = more people growning spuds in their back garden.

These carbon fines and kyoto stuff is a ball of smoke (pardon the pun). We don't have to pay if we don't want! Maybe George W was right when he said "sod the lot of them". And considering he did, and considering the co2 from America and China, are we not some idiots to be punishing ourselves!

JHMEG

maidhc wrote: »

Well that is pretty much what the greens want.

I think it's more sinister than that. I think Gormley is witless and FF are letting him dream up extra taxes so that they can blame the greens when the economy goes boom!

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

I think it's more sinister than that. I think Gormley is witless and FF are letting him dream up extra taxes so that they can blame the greens when the economy goes boom!

I must say I'm inclined towards that theory too, but if those people who could switch from the Greens to FG/Labour(or if FG and Lab people just didn't transfer to the Greenies at the next General Election)then it would put the frighteners on Feel and Fail cause they were only 3 seats short the last time(and FG/Lab transfers got the Greens in in 2 constituencies instead of FG people(Dun Laoghaire and Carlow), there was a third place where these transfers got a Green in instead of a Labour person, the place where it was escapes me at the moment).

Sure FF canvessors said at the last General Election to people when asked about the health service that that was the PD's fault and nothing to do with FF.

ninty9er

E92 wrote: »

I must say I'm inclined towards that theory too, but if those people who could switch from the Greens to FG/Labour(or if FG and Lab people just didn't transfer to the Greenies at the next General Election)then it would put the frighteners on Feel and Fail cause they were only 3 seats short the last time(and FG/Lab transfers got the Greens in in 2 constituencies instead of FG people(Dun Laoghaire and Carlow), there was a third place where these transfers got a Green in instead of a Labour person, the place where it was escapes me at the moment).

Sure FF canvessors said at the last General Election to people when asked about the health service that that was the PD's fault and nothing to do with FF.

Getting political and I didn't make it that way before anyone accuses me!!

Our stance on the doorstep was that we fully supported Mary Harney in the Department of Health and that the whitewash being put on matters by the Lablustre/Fine hot Gale was not going to fix it overnight anymore than anything the current government was doing at the time!

I blame the downfall of the PDs on 1 man - Michael McDowell and not on any other political party.

We're headed for recession. Hell we had one in 2000 in the midst of a spending frenzy by the public. What causes the levels of unemployment being scaremongered here is disincentive to work. High income tax causes this. Consumption taxes such as VRT, VAT and auxilliary taxes affect consumer behaviour. People seem to forget they have a choice as to what they consume. If you can't afford it or it becomes more expensive then don't buy it. You don't need a BMW. Hell nobody needs anything more than a 1.4 Focus or 1.8 Zafira. People will still spend regardless of tax, but will spend their income differently, which is what is intended with these carbon taxes.

Just because the US administration has decided to abandon it's responsibility to its people, its nation and the international community doesn't mean we have to do the same. It's the equivalent of throwing all the toys out of the pram. It has nothing to do with us, just the same as people who overtake me at 50 km/h over the speed limit have nothing to do with me; or will make me do the same! And yes it is comparable in that way!

niceirishfella

JHMEG wrote: »

With the economy slowing, unemployment rising, oil now over $100 a barrel, it looks like the govt will plough us straight into recession.. at times like this taxes need to be reduced...

+1

A carbon tax will kill the greens in the next election (hopefully)and lets hope its sooner than later and with any luck it will be sooner because Bertie is finding it hard to remember all the lies he told!:o

Seth Brundle

ninty9er wrote: »

Polluter pays....boards members here will be delighted:D:D

Its a pity they didn't think of using the polluter pays principal when designing the recent VRT & motor tax changes!

what_car

ninty9er wrote: »

Getting political and I didn't make it that way before anyone accuses me!!

Our stance on the doorstep was that we fully supported Mary Harney in the Department of Health and that the whitewash being put on matters by the Lablustre/Fine hot Gale was not going to fix it overnight anymore than anything the current government was doing at the time!

I blame the downfall of the PDs on 1 man - Michael McDowell and not on any other political party.

We're headed for recession. Hell we had one in 2000 in the midst of a spending frenzy by the public. What causes the levels of unemployment being scaremongered here is disincentive to work. High income tax causes this. Consumption taxes such as VRT, VAT and auxilliary taxes affect consumer behaviour. People seem to forget they have a choice as to what they consume. If you can't afford it or it becomes more expensive then don't buy it. You don't need a BMW. Hell nobody needs anything more than a 1.4 Focus or 1.8 Zafira. People will still spend regardless of tax, but will spend their income differently, which is what is intended with these carbon taxes.

Just because the US administration has decided to abandon it's responsibility to its people, its nation and the international community doesn't mean we have to do the same. It's the equivalent of throwing all the toys out of the pram. It has nothing to do with us, just the same as people who overtake me at 50 km/h over the speed limit have nothing to do with me; or will make me do the same! And yes it is comparable in that way!

here we go again more FF rubbish.
:mad::mad::mad:
this is a motors forum not a FF Stage!... get off (PUSH):eek::eek:

galwaytt

ninty9er wrote: »

Getting political and I didn't make it that way before anyone accuses me!!

trolling is the word you're looking for, and it is exactly what you're doing.........

What causes the levels of unemployment being scaremongered here is disincentive to work. High income tax causes this.

bull****. High income tax is a tool to prop a creaking behemoth FF designed public service (paradox :rolleyes:) from a shrinking working population. The success we've enjoyed til recently has been entirely on the basis of LOWERING taxes.....

Consumption taxes such as VRT, VAT and auxilliary taxes affect consumer behaviour.

over simplistic garbage. Turning off the lights leaves people in the dark, what does that prove? That darkness saves electricity.......?? There NOTHING you can buy - a product or service, that does not have tax, and you must consume them all. Including water to schools, remember......

People seem to forget they have a choice as to what they consume

No, they don't. Electricity. Car (don't even pretend that there is 'public transport' - the only public transport in this country is that which it provides for itself - cars/jeeps/motorcycles,etc.

If you can't afford it or it becomes more expensive then don't buy it.

You can't afford it BECAUSE it becomes more expensive......

You don't need a BMW. Hell nobody needs anything more than a 1.4 Focus or 1.8 Zafira. People will still spend regardless of tax, but will spend their income differently, which is what is intended with these carbon taxes.

Bull****. Speak for yourself. You may want to drive a Focus/Zafira - off you go, but don't dare to dictate to us what we should drive - do I dictate what you should eat, or where you live?

Just because the US administration has decided to abandon it's responsibility to its people, its nation and the international community doesn't mean we have to do the same. It's the equivalent of throwing all the toys out of the pram. It has nothing to do with us, just the same as people who overtake me at 50 km/h over the speed limit have nothing to do with me; or will make me do the same! And yes it is comparable in that way!

Completely irrelevant. If this entire country drove Prii, then it would not make ONE IOTA of difference to climate change - not as long as China opens one COAL burning electricity plant per week.

This entire 'eco-friendly' thing has got out of control............what about people, and their entitlements to a decent comfortable life based on the fruits of their labours??

cantdecide

BOOOOOO!!!

Leave us alone- you already have all our money...

Niall1234

**** news in the short term but fantastic in the long term.

This is going to bury the Green Party almost permanently. There's going to be so much resentment towards them it will be unreal.

cantdecide

galwaytt wrote: »

This entire 'eco-friendly' thing has got out of control............what about people, and their entitlements to a decent comfortable life based on the fruits of their labours??

I'd wager the majority of people here are very environmentally conscious. I know I am.

Solving a 'problem' like the recent VRT changes is only a smokescreen. This is not the US- it was so expensive to drive before they did anything, we already had an overwhelming majority of small cc cars and diesels (even though they costed far too much thusfar) on the nations crappy roads.

There is no justification for further victimisation of the motorist. I have said this a thousand times before- Island nation with sparse population density, poor public transport and notoriously long commutes. If anyone needs cars it's us- nationally, we cannot change this.

It's like the government has us in a headlock and is taunting us with the old stop hitting yourself routine.

E92

If opeople are going to refuse to vote for the Greenies because of this, then they must ALSO not vote for FF.

Has nobody ever heard of collective responsibility? The Greens may have come up with this hair brained idea, but FF haven't blocked it, so that means they think it's not bad at the very least, so if you're not going to vote for the Greens because of this, then logic dictates that you mustn't vote for FF either.

GoalsGoneWild

Credit for a well-written riposte from galwaytt.

Bualadh Bos...

ninty9er

GoalsGoneWild wrote: »

Credit for a well-written riposte from galwaytt.

Bualadh Bos...

Well written

If ANY of you believe that

a) the Greens are behind this

or

b) A FG/Labour lead coalition wouldn't have done the exact same with VRT

then you seriously need to take wake up to reality. You are forgetting that this is not the US and it certainly isn't China, and while some of you may choose not to listen to your social conscience, if I choose to drive a polluter, which I inevitably will, then I've got to be willing to pay for the PRIVELAGE.

Driving a Punto is a necessity. Driving a 300g/km CO2 S600 is a LUXURY. Get over it. And if you can't see that then you've lost sight of the very social Mecca you yearn for so much.



I'm perfectly within my rights as a citizen, FF member and boards user to give a supportive perspective on these moves. So unless you want to stop complaining about them on the motors forum, don't expect me to stop rebutting.

cantdecide

Been through this already to the point of frustration. If you believe what you have just said it is just plain naiveity.

Cars don't pollute burning fossil fuels pollutes- Using said Punto for 25k a year is a lot more harmful than using the S600 for 5k a year of weekend driving.

Conclusion; draw your own- there's only one and it's bloody well obvious.

unkel

cantdecide wrote: »

Cars don't pollute burning fossil fuels pollutes

QFT

The current government did want to look to be doing something, but they don't have the balls to apply the "polluter pays" principle by sticking another €0.50 excise on the price of a litre of fuel

Of course a politician can't admit being a coward, so they are trying to justify it with "you can afford luxury goods so you have to pay the price" type of rhetoric :rolleyes:

From what I can see there will be no getting away from the carbon levy, motorist or not.
The Green Party are nothing but a bunch of puppets for FF to push out more money grabbing ideas and let them take the flak for it.

• If say for talk sake we could all depend on public transport for going to work the price of the fair would go up cause of an increase in use, more CO2 emissions, maintance costs and there would be less trips to the filling station (less money for the Bertie bunch).
• Less trips to the garage mean increase in the price of petrol & diesel.
• Being able to depend on public transport could result in less new car sales and less likely hood of VRT & Taxes coming down.
• If electric cars came in electricity prices would go up.

There's no way of getting away from it, if we all decided to use bicycles GP/FF would probably slap a carbon tax on them too cause we are breathing more :rolleyes:

maidhc

unkel wrote: »

The current government did want to look to be doing something, but they don't have the balls to apply the "polluter pays" principle by sticking another €0.50 excise on the price of a litre of fuel

They don't have the balls to do something which could seriously hit our competitiveness and have a massive inflationary effect... God, they must be cowards!

People gave out about the PDs too, and they were all for lowering taxes. Some people I have reached the conclusion just like to give out.

It is stupid talk to go on about public transport. Yes, it is vital, and it needs major investment, but it is not the magic answer. I or my neighbours and at least a million more will never be able to go to work without a car... end of story.

TheBazman

If this government really wants to "save the planet" by forcing us into leaving our cars at home, an adequate public transport system is an absolute necessity. However not alone is this light years away, they are doing nothing to encourage joe public to use the minimal public transport options that are available. Why are Iarnroid Eireann allowed to start charging for parking in commuter towns? Would they not prefer the commuting public to drive to the nearest train station and leave the car there? Why does it cost 4 bloody euro to park at the luas stop in the Red Cow. Surely they want people to use the luas and not clog up the city with congestion and pumping CO2 into the atmosphere as we sit in traffic? It's not like people are going to take advantage of the car park there - there's nothing else around there! Why are there no parking options at the start of the Red Line luas? Surely these are things that should be thought about?

I suppose it's difficult to think about these things when there is a government Merc waiting outside the door for you each morning

old boy

99er seems to have 2 points of view, f.f.s and his own, this is a motors forum,

old boy

a bus stops at the end of my road 6;05 am 8;20 am 5;40 pm 6;54 pm what the hell use is the service to me

parsi

ninty9er wrote: »

Consumption taxes such as VRT, VAT and auxilliary taxes affect consumer behaviour. People seem to forget they have a choice as to what they consume. If you can't afford it or it becomes more expensive then don't buy it.

Excellent so that applies to Health Insurance, Electricity, Gas, Tolls, Road Tax, Refuse Charges, Passport fees, Rates - all of which have increased immensely during the lifetime of the FF Gov.

Consumption taxes are a blind - they affect the lower-paid way more than the Golden Circle who frequent the FF Tent at the Galway races. Of course they did a u-turn on the great consumption tax that is stamp duty in order to save their building buddies.

So the recent road tax hikes will cost the average earner way more as a percentage of their wages than it will some property developer or indeed politiican.

parsi

parsi wrote: »

So the recent road tax hikes will cost the average earner way more as a percentage of their wages than it will some property developer or indeed politiican.

Bertie will have no problem with the new taxes or price of a '08 Merc due to his recenty pay increase

ninty9er

parsi wrote: »

Excellent so that applies to Health Insurance, Electricity, Gas, Tolls, Road Tax, Refuse Charges, Passport fees, Rates - all of which have increased immensely during the lifetime of the FF Gov.
Consumption taxes are a blind - they affect the lower-paid way more than the Golden Circle who frequent the FF Tent at the Galway races. Of course they did a u-turn on the great consumption tax that is stamp duty in order to save their building buddies.

PM sent...If I really wanted to argue about this stuff publicly I'd use another forum, but most of the FF bashing threads here belong in Politics and not Motors.

Gran Hermano

What are this government playing at; between this carbon footprint
and special rural driving license it's a joke. What's next, Mary Harney
paying joggers to off-set her obesity footprint? How about the Green
Party paying MENSA to off-set their stupidity footprint?

parsi

ninty9er wrote: »

PM sent...If I really wanted to argue about this stuff publicly I'd use another forum, but most of the FF bashing threads here belong in Politics and not Motors.

PM received. It's bad enough getting FF rubbish in the post at election time.... :mad:

ninty9er

Fair enough....can't win. if you call valid argument drivel, ten I'm not going to waste my time on you anymore:rolleyes:

If Ireland became a zero tax state in the morning people would bitch about the €12K they're paying for VHI for a childless married couple or the €1 million Tom and Mary have to pay to put Milly, Fiachra, Pat and Joe through 4 years of college not to mind the previous 18 years.

If you people think you have it bad:rolleyes::rolleyes:

cantdecide

ninty9er wrote: »

Fair enough....can't win. if you call valid argument drivel, ten I'm not going to waste my time on you anymore:rolleyes:

If Ireland became a zero tax state in the morning people would bitch about the €12K they're paying for VHI for a childless married couple or the €1 million Tom and Mary have to pay to put Milly, Fiachra, Pat and Joe through 4 years of college not to mind the previous 18 years.

If you people think you have it bad:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I've said this before (surprisingly:rolleyes:) but a couple of % on the income tax rates and hey presto, no need for the stealth taxes and definitely no need to mash the motorist into the floor in exchange for a few blips weekly that you probably won't even miss...

There's nothing wrong with sensible taxation and no one is saying there is

PauloMN

kbannon wrote: »

Its a pity they didn't think of using the polluter pays principal when designing the recent VRT & motor tax changes!

Totally agree. I, as someone who prefers driving petrol cars, and does maybe 6k miles annually, will have to pay more tax and VRT if I buy a new car than someone who does 30k annually in a diesel and pollutes far more than me.

Green Party = Jokers. Hopefully this pathetic light bulb ban idea will be the death of them. FF = not much better. Unfortunately, for some reason unknown to me, people voted them in to run the country for us.

junkyard

One things for sure though, if this country has to endure anymore stealth taxes very soon we won't have a country to worry about at all. Being self employed myself and speaking to other friends of mine in business the future is not looking good for us as employers or even as businesses, as overheads are crippling us at every turn. It's coming to the stage that we have to review our situation in this country. Another thing you can be sure of is that mankind is not responsible for the global warming that's happening now for the sake of a hundred or so years of pollution, this planet has been warming up for thousands if not millions of years and to suddenly hit us with all sorts of taxes is frankly unbelievable. I have to hand it to the politicans of today, they're pulling off the greatest scam possibly in the history of the world to the detriment of it's workforce .

junkyard

junkyard wrote: »

Another thing you can be sure of is that mankind is not responsible for the global warming that's happening now for the sake of a hundred or so years of pollution, this planet has been warming up for thousands if not millions of years and to suddenly hit us with all sorts of taxes is frankly unbelievable. I have to hand it to the politicans of today, they're pulling off the greatest scam possibly in the history of the world to the detriment of it's workforce .

+1

what_car

ninty9er wrote: »

PM sent...If I really wanted to argue about this stuff publicly I'd use another forum, but most of the FF bashing threads here belong in Politics and not Motors.

then keep ur feckin FF sig out of the motors forum and stop blabberin FF ****e. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Oilrig

99er...

For your information, a BMW 320D and an Opel Corsa 1.2i will occupy the same carbon emission band under the new regime.

A little more research of the facts before you prattle off populist guff please.

My commute to work has never had a public transport option - believe me when I say I would love one. Strangely, I believe the same applies to the majority of people in this country - i.e. private vehicles will be with us out of necessity for some time to come...

A Prius (for example) would not be eco friendly on my commute either - and before you ask, I've done the sums. I believe I'm somewhat representative of many voters when I say that because of the usual financial commitments I can't consider the option of automatically shelling out on the latest technology in order to be eco friendly. I'll do what I can - because I understand the issues and want to do my bit, but there are limitations.

Important message there for any aspiring politician...

Don't do the send me a PM trick, you made your statements in public, answer the replys in public.

As for taxation... there is no logic to this Gov's taxation policy re vehicles. FF are doing the usual trick of using the Greens/PD's to increase revenue/make unpopular decisions etc that they can disown at the appropriate juncture.

Can't remember who posted it but:

We are not heading into a recession! We are facing a slow down in growth, not a decrease.

Oilrig. Not party political.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

parsi

I've said it before...a drop of 1% on the tax band gives the average earner not a whole lot extra but gives Berties Buddies way way more.

That benefit from the 1% drop is of even less benefit to the average earner if it is accompanied by savage rises in additional items esp items which were once covered by general taxation.

That is the lie that has been sold to the Irish public - we'll reduce the headline rate of tax but hike up everything else.

Does a road tax hike of eur100 affect a family on 43,000 p.a. more than a family on 430,00 p.a (with additional undeclared..) ? You bet ya.

unkel

maidhc wrote: »

They don't have the balls to do something which could seriously hit our competitiveness and have a massive inflationary effect... God, they must be cowards!

FF rhetoric taken one step further

I was only proposing a budget / inflation neutral solution. Bump excise and drop motor tax and VRT. Make all civil servants in the area of motor tax and VRT collection / administration redundant. This will boost our competitiveness, not hit it...

galwaytt

ninty9er wrote: »

PM sent...If I really wanted to argue about this stuff publicly I'd use another forum, but most of the FF bashing threads here belong in Politics and not Motors.

then do us all a favour and take it off to the politics forum. As mentioned before, you're trolling, and waving that FF banner is nothing short of inciteful.

And if you tell us that it hasn't got you stick in the past, then, frankly, I don't believe you. We all hear the tirades from the Tribunals on the news too, y'know.........

And for what it's worth, and to paraphrase the McDonald's ad: more than 225 gmCO2/km..........and lovin' it !!

ninty9er

Read me clearly.

My sig is not forum specific. It is there to promote something that I believe in.

Some of you are selling stuff, I'm promoting my political party. I've been at the short end of a minister's wedge as recently as yesterday, but I believe in a party that will exist far longer than that minister or even me. Now that that's clear....

I never said that a 1.2l Corsa and a 320D weren't in the same band, so stop spinning me stuff I already know or making out I said or inferred things when I didn't.

I'm NOT trolling if you belive I am then stop feeding the troll!!

A headline decrease in growth is technically recession and that is what our newspapers are on about.

oilrig wrote: »

A little more research of the facts before you prattle off populist guff please.

Edit: I'm not looking for a fight, and I have not now, nor have I ever claimed to be making statements here on behalf of the government. So if you wish to call it "drivel", thanks Parsi:p, then do not label it FF drivel, it's MY drivel.