Is God Omniscient?

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Your apparent "confusion" that I was referring to is in misquoting my words, not in regard to understanding the Bible.

I have never misquoted your words PDN, I have pointed out the problems, inconsistencies and hypocrisy of your words. There is a difference.

PDN wrote: »

You are twisting my words yet again. What I said was that the leaders who start such wars do so for base and selfish motives. As for the poor sods who do most of the fighting - they just have to do what they are told.

No PDN they don't "Just do what they are told" ... they do what they are told because they believe

PDN wrote: »

A differently worded Bible wouldn't alter that fact at all.

It changes what they believe. You said yourself Christians believe in just wars, and that all wars fought under a religious pretext are considered just wars. That Bible not only allows that, it encourages it.

PDN wrote: »

Wars took place before people had the Bible, and they have continued as much, if not more, when people get rid of the Bible (look at Stalin etc) so blaming the Bible for wars is not a reasonable stance to take.

I'm not blaming the Bible for wars (you really seem to be having trouble with that point).

I'm responding to the OPs genuine question wondering why the Bible is not better written to prevent the interpretation that slaughter and war and killing is acceptable.

I appreciate that you don't have an answer to that, but a simple "I don't know" will do. Arguing that the Bible is in fact perfectly clear in everything it teachs, while also saying that many Christians believe in "just" wars is clearly contradictory nonsense. The Bible isn't clear at all, which is why it has been used as the justification for tons of "just" wars.

PDN wrote: »

I have never claimed that the Bible clearly forbids people to fight in a war. Once the leaders have started the war then the ordinary person may have no choice in the matter because they get conscripted.

Except for the ones that don't get conscripted. Come on PDN, you are clasping at straws now.

PDN wrote: »

But you appear to be deliberately misrepresenting my argument. My point, in response to the OP, was that the Bible clearly forbids hatred and cruelty.

Thats great PDN, but that isn't what the OP was asking. He was asking about slaughter (ie war)

You brought up hatred and cruelty because it is easier to defend. No religious war in history has been fought under the banner of "hatred and cruelty". That doesn't stop them having hatred or cruelty or slaughter.

PDN wrote: »

The Bible was not intended to produce a utopian society on earth where no wars ever took place.

Why not?

PDN wrote: »

That is not true. The fact that you have already made up your mind on that point, but keep coming onto this forum pretending to ask questions, shows that you are just trolling.

No, it proves that I'm attempting to point out the problems with your little ideas through getting you to think about them, rather than me simply dictating the problems to you. It is far easier to get people to think about the on logic of their beliefs by getting them to answer difficult questions.

Some say honestly "I don't know"

Some attempt to answer and get caught in logic problems.

Others, like you, try and turn the conversation around to something they would rather talk about and then start and then start to get annoyed and aggressive.

robindch

PDN wrote:

Wars took place before people had the Bible, and they have continued as much, if not more, when people get rid of the Bible (look at Stalin etc) so blaming the Bible for wars is not a reasonable stance to take.

Unless, of course, you have American generals who use the biblical narrative to motivate people in the support of war. Or all the many American preachers who use the bible to motivate their sheep-like flocks in unquestioning support of Israel.

There are many more examples, as you know as well as I do, and I'm really quite surprised that you claim that religion wasn't a motivating factor!

PDN wrote:

I am unaware of any case (although I will be interested to hear of any) where any Christian has deliberately killed others & themselves in an explosion carried out for religious motives.

Off the top of my head, I can't recall any christian suicide bombers -- suicide bombing seems to have been a fairly recent islamic development. Also, the development of the kind of reliable modern explosives that you need for suicide bombings post-dates much of christianity's military activity, so it's perhaps unsurprising that examples of this are uncommon.

Having said that, the christian evangelist Jim Jones killed himself and presided over the death of over nine hundred others in 1978 in Jonestown, Guyana. It certainly wasn't explosives, but poison is just as effective.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Having said that, the christian evangelist Jim Jones killed himself and presided over the death of over nine hundred others in 1978 in Jonestown, Guyana. It certainly wasn't explosives, but poison is just as effective.

Has April the 1st arrived early this year? Jones was a cult leader & an evil individual indeed. His actions, and those of his gullible followers were stupid and tragic, but are a different event entirely to the likes of a suicide bomber who kills himself (or herself) in an attempt to kill and maim others.

PDN

Wicknight, I am totally fed up with your dishonest use of the quote function.

Here was my paragraph:

PDN wrote:

I have never claimed that the Bible clearly forbids people to fight in a war. Once the leaders have started the war then the ordinary person may have no choice in the matter because they get conscripted. They may fight because of patriotic appeals. They may feel that, whatever the reasons for the war, their wives and kids stand to suffer if their country is defeated, so they go and fight. They may feel that as Christians they have an obligation to be good citizens - and that citizenship means fighting for your country in times of war.

Anyone can see that I list conscription as one major reason why people fight in wars. I then go on to list several others.

You, however, quote me and chop the paragraph off after the second sentence so it now reads:

I have never claimed that the Bible clearly forbids people to fight in a war. Once the leaders have started the war then the ordinary person may have no choice in the matter because they get conscripted.

Then, in response to this truncated quote, having conveniently edited out my references to those who are not conscripted:

Wicknight wrote: »

Except for the ones that don't get conscripted. Come on PDN, you are clasping at straws now.

That is not debating. It is blatant dishonesty.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

Has April the 1st arrived early this year?

A poor comeback by your high standards, PDN!

PDN wrote: »

Jones was a cult leader & an evil individual indeed. His actions, and those of his gullible followers were stupid and tragic, but are a different event entirely to the likes of a suicide bomber who kills himself (or herself) in an attempt to kill and maim others.

The distinction between a religious lunatic who kills lots of people, then himself, and one who kills himself, then lots of people seems rather contrived to me. Could you explain exactly what the difference is?

PDN wrote: »

They may feel that as Christians they have an obligation to be good citizens - and that citizenship means fighting for your country in times of war.

But I thought that the fifth of god's commandments said that you weren't supposed to kill people? Which would make a truly christian army less than effective. Unless, you hold to wolfsbane's interpretation of that commandment, in which killing is ok when there's a law that says that you can.

Either way (and off-topic), it seems strange that god would inspire something that allowed such diametrically incompatible interpretations. Both of which he would have been aware of from his omniscience.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

That is not debating. It is blatant dishonesty.

The dishonesty PDN is the lengths you are going to avoid the simply admitting the conclusion that people fight and kill because they believe that Christianity, through the Bible, tells them that it is just and right to do so.

You may disagree with that interpretation of the Bible, but to say that the Bible is "very clear" that people are not supposed to do that, that the Bible tells people not to slaughter other people, and that those who do do that are fighting for any reason but religious belief, is put simply nonsense.

And its when I hear this kind of religious propaganda I wade into these conversations.

The Christian teaching that God teaches love and kindness to everyone while also justifying war after war after war as being just and within the teachings of this "doctrine of love" has lead to far too many deaths for my liking.

The greatest crimes in humanity take place not when people believe they are doing wrong but when they convince themselves that they are doing right. If a person believes in the infallible righteousness of his cause he can do anything.

You keep thinking I go on about this because I'm an atheist. You fail to realize that I'm an atheist because of this

Zombrex

The best known example of Christian suicide bombers where among the kamikaze Japanese pilots of the Second World War, many of whom where intelligent, devout, Christians, who took Bibles onto their planes as they headed off to ram US battle ships in the Pacific.

Perhaps the "very clear" parts of the Bible telling them that they shouldn't do this were missing from their copies...

robindch

Googling "christian suicide bombers" leads to these stories which may or may not be accurate.

http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=4223 (Lebanese)
http://www.martinrothonline.com/Christians&War/Christian_suicide_bomber.htm (Japanese)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/821425/posts (Archbishop calls for suicide bombers using pretty much the same duty-of-a-good-citizen argument that PDN uses above)

Then, there's that great line in Angela's Ashes, where McCourt's religious teachers tell him that he must be prepared to die for Jesus and die for Ireland, but forget to tell him who wanted him alive.

A scene that I can easily imagine, courtesy of one of my own primary-school teachers -- a vicious, violent nationalist who had a picture of some dead patriotic relative on the wall next to a cross -- who, in a fit of pious rage one day, came close to decapitating a ten-year old classmate with a large plastic set-square because she couldn't recite the 'our father' through floods of tears.

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No professed Christian would take his own life.

Thats ridiculous, "professed" Christians take their lives all the time.

I was reading only yesterday about Jason Dunham, one of the only 2 service men so far award the Medal of Honor in the current Iraq war.

He threw himself down onto a live grenade to shield his fellow soldiers from the blast. The blast killed him, but left the others uninjured.

Are you saying that because he did that, a suicidal act, he was not a proper Christian (pretty sure he was a Christian from reading the news reports, at least according to the people commenting that "Jesus must have been walking beside him")

Run_to_da_hills

Wicknight wrote: »

Perhaps the "very clear" parts of the Bible telling them that they shouldn't do this were missing from their copies.

No professed Christian would take his own life. The Bible teaches us to trust, depend on, and believe in God throughout its length. One example, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose"(Romans 8:28 )

To take your own life would show no faith in God. Notice that although the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ were persecuted, tortured, and put to death; they did not commit suicide for an “easy out.”.

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No professed Christian would take his own life. The Bible teaches us to trust, depend on, and believe in God throughout its length. One example, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose"(Romans 8:28 )

To take your own life would show no faith in God. Notice that although the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ were persecuted, tortured, and put to death; they did not commit suicide for an “easy out.”.

See previous post

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

The best known example of Christian suicide bombers where among the kamikaze Japanese pilots of the Second World War, many of whom where intelligent, devout, Christians, who took Bibles onto their planes as they headed off to ram US battle ships in the Pacific.

Perhaps the "very clear" parts of the Bible telling them that they shouldn't do this were missing from their copies...

I think you will find that those pilots - few of whom appeared to be professed Christians - were driven by rampant nationalism, a terrifying fear of the enemy and a desire to safeguard their loved ones, and not any express Christian doctrine.


::Edit::

Added to this, I would suggest that a proportion of the pilots were Buddhits, which I would tentatively argue is closer to atheism than theism. However, maybe some of the Buddhist readers could correct me on that point if needed. I'm not quite sure of the finer points with regards to Japanese Buddhism and what role Taoism, Confucianism and Shintoism may have played.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I think you will find that those pilots - few of whom appeared to be professed Christians - were driven by rampant nationalism, a terrifying fear of the enemy and a desire to safeguard their loved ones, and not any express Christian doctrine.

I didn't claim otherwise.

The point is that knowledge of the Bible (these men where intelligent well educated devout Christians), does not stop a devout Christian flying his plane into a US warship.

In fact knowledge of the Bible made these pilots believe they were doing the correct thing, and that God would look after them and their families after they were dead, which is why they had Bibles on them at the time. They weren't doing this despite of their Christianity, as PDN claims. They didn't believe this to be a sin.

Now you can claim that under your interpretation of the Bible these actions are not supported by its teachings.

But it is ridiculous to claim that it is very clear that those actions are not supported by the teachings of the Bible.

Run_to_da_hills

Wicknight wrote: »

Thats ridiculous, "professed" Christians take their lives all the time.

I was reading only yesterday about Jason Dunham, one of the only 2 service men so far award the Medal of Honor in the current Iraq war.

He threw himself down onto a live grenade to shield his fellow soldiers from the blast. The blast killed him, but left the others uninjured.

Are you saying that because he did that, a suicidal act, he was not a proper Christian (pretty sure he was a Christian from reading the news reports, at least according to the people commenting that "Jesus must have been walking beside him")

Absolutly, no Christian should take his/her own life. Judas took his own life and is still suffering the consequnces to this day and for the rest of eternity.

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Absolutly, no Christian should take his/her own life. Judas took his own life and is still suffering the consequnces to this day and for the rest of eternity.

Fair enough.

I'm pretty sure a lot of Christians would disagree with you. But then again I think that is the point of this thread

Anyone want to defend the actions of Jason Dunham, or do you all agree he wasn't really a Christian because of what he did?

robindch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I think you will find that those pilots - few of whom appeared to be professed Christians - were driven by rampant nationalism, a terrifying fear of the enemy and a desire to safeguard their loved ones, and not any express Christian doctrine.

You must not have read the link that I posted earlier on where the biographer of seven of these suicide pilots says of one of them:

Professor Emiko Ohnuki-Tierney wrote:

Ichizo Hayashi relied on his Christian faith as he embarked on his final mission.

Also, one of the other two links tells of an Archbishop who praised christian suicide bombers and called for more of them:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/821425/posts and
http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=4223

If you google for "christian suicide bomber" and "christian suicide bombers", you'll get 2.3 million hits. There are plenty more examples than the two easy ones that I've given.

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

I didn't claim otherwise.

Great! We agree on something.

I think, though, that your use of these pilots as a justification for your condemnation of Christianity is a weak position to argue from. I haven't seen any statics regarding the percentage of professed Christians in the Japanese Air Force at the time. For all I know there could have been 1,000 Christians serving, ten of whom decided to become Kamikaze pilots. If this was the case - by this I mean that Japanese Christian pilots not choosing to become Kamikaze pilots far outweighed those who did - you are then basing your opinion on the actions of a statistically unimportant few.

robindch wrote: »

You must not have read the link that I posted earlier on where the biographer of seven of these suicide pilots says of one of them:
Ichizo Hayashi relied on his Christian faith as he embarked on his final mission

All that tells us is how one man, Ichizo Hayashi, acted. His actions provide no insight into Christianity as a whole - only what he felt was necessary. The link you provided does mention some important conclusions reached that you must have forgotten to include. To give some idea of the mind-set of this man it seems important to note 'that the diary covers a period in 1945 when the Allies were bombing Japanese cities relentlessly. He had reasons for hating them, and for wanting revenge.'.

The author concludes his piece by stating: 'The book shows us how easy it is for even a sincere and hugely-intelligent Christian like Hayashi to fall victim to poisonous nationalistic ideologies. The lesson surely is that Christians should always question the dominant political culture of the day.'.

It is clear that you want the actions of one man to be more significant for Christianity as a whole than they actually were.

Run_to_da_hills

Wicknight wrote: »

Fair enough.

I'm pretty sure a lot of Christians would disagree with you. But then again I think that is the point of this thread

Anyone want to defend the actions of Jason Dunham, or do you all agree he wasn't really a Christian because of what he did?

Suicide (Latin sui caedere, to kill oneself) is the act of intentionally terminating one's own life. In the case of Jason Dunham, it was probably a quick instinctive action he took, rather than something that was premeditated. It would be entirely up to God to decide on his faith and more importantly, what was his relationship with God prior to taking this action ie. was he saved or not.

robindch

FC wrote:

His actions provide no insight into Christianity as a whole

Not really. Wicknight and I contend that religions legitimate violence -- they're not the only things that do, but they are major contributory factors (imho, the greatest, though I'm open to being persuaded otherwise).

The links I've given you, esp. the Lebanese stuff, show legitimation in action in a pretty basic way, so I'm a bit confused as to why you think that this does not provide some useful insights into religion and what it causes.

As I write this, I think you may be missing an important point. Which is that when you're thinking about religion, it's necessary not only to listen to what religion says, but also to look at what religion does and what it causes too. I frequently get the impression that many religious people, in the final analysis, stop after the listening bit.

SubjectSean

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Suicide (Latin sui caedere, to kill oneself) is the act of intentionally terminating one's own life. In the case of Jason Dunham, it was probably a quick instinctive action he took, rather than something that was premeditated. It would be entirely up to God to decide on his faith and more importantly, what was his relationship with God prior to taking this action ie. was he saved or not.

He put his helmet over the grenade and covered it as best he could. He died some days later in hospital. It wasn't suicide. We got him killed getting our oil.

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Suicide (Latin sui caedere, to kill oneself) is the act of intentionally terminating one's own life. In the case of Jason Dunham, it was probably a quick instinctive action he took, rather than something that was premeditated.

Well firstly that is quite an assumption, and one that would tend to go against the Medal of Honor description of the event.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It would be entirely up to God to decide on his faith and more importantly, what was his relationship with God prior to taking this action ie. was he saved or not.

Yet you feel confident in claiming he isn't a Christian?

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Great! We agree on something.

I'm sure we agree on a lot of things

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I think, though, that your use of these pilots as a justification for your condemnation of Christianity is a weak position to argue from.

That probably because I'm not arguing from that position.

The OPs question to this forum was why did God not make the Bible a heck of a lot clearer as to what good Christians should and should not do when it comes to the slaughter of people during war since God, being omniscient would know at the time all the actions that would be carried out that would be justified by the Bible.

I came into the discussion to argue against the nonsense position (in my humble opinion) put forward by posters such as PDN that the Bible is in fact "very clear" over topics like this and therefore one cannot say that there is any problem with the Bible itself.

When asked to explain why if the Bible is very clear on these matters history is still littered with people who carry out actions like the Japanese pilots the response was that they do so for pretty much every reason other than religious faith, and those who do claim to for religious faith are being dishonest.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I haven't seen any statics regarding the percentage of professed Christians in the Japanese Air Force at the time. For all I know there could have been 1,000 Christians serving, ten of whom decided to become Kamikaze pilots. If this was the case - by this I mean that Japanese Christian pilots not choosing to become Kamikaze pilots far outweighed those who did - you are then basing your opinion on the actions of a statistically unimportant few.

That isn't really relevant. The vast majority of people don't become suicide bombers, Christian or otherwise.

You, like PDN, seem to be missing the point.

The proposal is that the Bible should have been made more clear and that in being more clear it could have prevented true believers like these pilots, from carrying out these actions, assuming these actions are actually immoral by God, which again is the point that isn't clear.

The counter-proposal is that the Bible is perfectly clear already that things like this should be carried out by Christians.

I've already run into the quagmire that is the Bibles commandment to love everyone, the idea that a "just war" is some how compatible with that, and the notion that a Christian would never take his own life yet the actions of Jason Dunham are not wrong.

So we didn't have to go very far before we start running into examples of where the instructions in the Bible are anything but clear.

If you want to demonstrate the point being made by the OP, and followed up by myself with this example, is wrong a start would be to explain what part of the Bible should have made it very clear to these pilots that what they were doing was wrong if they had read it and then fit that in with the notions of a just war (which these pilots believed they were fighting)

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

The dishonesty PDN is the lengths you are going to avoid the simply admitting the conclusion that people fight and kill because they believe that Christianity, through the Bible, tells them that it is just and right to do so.

You may disagree with that interpretation of the Bible, but to say that the Bible is "very clear" that people are not supposed to do that, that the Bible tells people not to slaughter other people, and that those who do do that are fighting for any reason but religious belief, is put simply nonsense.

And its when I hear this kind of religious propaganda I wade into these conversations.

The Christian teaching that God teaches love and kindness to everyone while also justifying war after war after war as being just and within the teachings of this "doctrine of love" has lead to far too many deaths for my liking.

The greatest crimes in humanity take place not when people believe they are doing wrong but when they convince themselves that they are doing right. If a person believes in the infallible righteousness of his cause he can do anything.

You keep thinking I go on about this because I'm an atheist. You fail to realize that I'm an atheist because of this

I'm sorry wicknight but your dishoinesty is quite blatant. How you manage to twist words is unbelievable.

Are you claiming that every soldier in every war ever fought is a Christian doing so in order to obtain salvation? Please clarify your stance here. In two words or less.

Because it sure looks like it.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I'm sorry wicknight but your dishoinesty is quite blatant. How you manage to twist words is unbelievable.

Yes, I get that a lot ... :rolleyes:

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Are you claiming that every soldier in every war ever fought is a Christian doing so in order to obtain salvation?

No, I'm not.

I appreciate that it would be far easier for you and PDN to file under "ranting anti-Christian atheist" and auto-disregard what I was saying if I was actually saying that, but if you read my posts properly without jumping to conclusions you will see that isn't what I'm saying.

I'm claiming that the Bible is not clear at all in what it teaches about war and killing in the cause of a war.

And relating that back to the OP's original post, it is rather peculiar that an omniscient god didn't make it a lot more clear given that he knew the miss-interpretation that would take place over history.

And before you take the default "It is perfectly clear to everyone who wants it to be!!" line shared by PDN, have a proper think about it. The honest answer to the OP's original question is "I don't know", not a big long rant about why the Bible is in fact very clear about these issues and everyone through history who appeared to demonstrate otherwise is just being dishonest.

How does the concept of love everyone, including your enemy relates to concepts such as "just wars"

Do you believe that there is such a think as a just war within Christian teaching, and how does one army "love" another army when in a just war? And is this position very clear in the Bible.

Soul Winner

Wicknight wrote: »

Thats ridiculous, "professed" Christians take their lives all the time.

I was reading only yesterday about Jason Dunham, one of the only 2 service men so far award the Medal of Honor in the current Iraq war.

He threw himself down onto a live grenade to shield his fellow soldiers from the blast. The blast killed him, but left the others uninjured.

Are you saying that because he did that, a suicidal act, he was not a proper Christian (pretty sure he was a Christian from reading the news reports, at least according to the people commenting that "Jesus must have been walking beside him")

I agree. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13. Anyone who wants to condemn this soldier because he committed suicide will have to contend with these profound words of Jesus first.

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

I agree. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13. Anyone who wants to condemn this soldier because he committed suicide will have to contend with these profound words of Jesus first.

Does that include the Japanese pilots?

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes, I get that a lot ... :rolleyes:.

Then stop doing it and you will bring a lot more to these discussions than you are.

Soul Winner

Wicknight wrote: »

Does that include the Japanese pilots?

For this verse to apply to the Japanese pilots in WWII then it would have to depend on the motives of those pilots. If by flying their war planes into US Warships (during the battle of Midway for instance) they were doing it out of a genuine love for their friends (because by doing so they were dying to save friends from the enemy at home) then yes they would qualify, no greater love hath any man than that. But if they were doing it out of fear of reprisals from their country men and women i.e. they returned to their homeland alive and thus shamed, then no it would not apply to them because the qualifying motive is not there 'Love'

I think there is a big difference between what some of those pilots did for fear of shame and what this US soldier did in reaction to a sudden situation with no thought for himself. Does that mean that what these pilots did was wrong? That would depend what side you're on wouldn't it? From a moral point of view I can only quote that famous phrase: "All is fair in love and war"

The quick answer to your question is that if God exists then He is the ultimate judge and He has revealed Himself to judge men and women's hearts, then it is He and He alone who has the right to judge the motives of these pilots and everyone else’s motives for that matter. Even those who profess a non belief in Him will (if He exists) have to account for that profession in the end. Are their beliefs based on truth as they believe truth to be? Or have they got ulterior motives and profess atheism as a belief system in order to get out of bowing the knee to the living God?

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Then stop doing it and you will bring a lot more to these discussions than you are.

No offense BC, but if either you or PDN thought I was "bringing something" to the discussion I would be very disappointed.

The very point of my posts are to challenge your beliefs in ways you don't want them to be challenged.

“Sacred cows make the best hamburger”
Mark Twain

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

For this verse to apply to the Japanese pilots in WWII then it would have to depend on the motives of those pilots. If by flying their war planes into US Warships (during the battle of Midway for instance) they were doing it out of a genuine love for their friends (because by doing so they were dying to save friends from the enemy at home) then yes they would qualify, no greater love hath any man than that.

Judging by some of their diaries that appears to be the case.

"How fortunate I am that I believe in God, whom my mother believes in. My mind is at ease when I think that God takes care of everything. God would not make my mother or myself sad. I am sure God will bestow happiness upon us. Even [though] I will die I dream of our lives together ... I can’t bear the thought of our nation being stampeded by the dirty enemy. I must avenge [it] with my own life."

While no doubt some of the kamikaze pilots took part because they were ordered to, a lot volunteered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

It is not hard to see how belief in an after life would lessen the fear of death as the only outcome of the mission, or how they would see the US landing in Japan as being a horrific outcome to be avoided at all costs.

Soul Winner wrote: »

From a moral point of view I can only quote that famous phrase: "All is fair in love and war"

That isn't a Bible quote is it

Soul Winner wrote: »

The quick answer to your question is that if God exists then He is the ultimate judge and He has revealed Himself to judge men and women's hearts, then it is He and He alone who has the right to judge the motives of these pilots and everyone else’s motives for that matter.

That doesn't actually answer my question, at least in the context of this thread.

The issue isn't whether God knows you did wrong. He (assuming he exists) will and always has known.

The question is how possible is it for humans to determine this themselves based on reading of the Bible.

Can you tell me if what those pilots did was wrong, and can you based this on a clear (ie not open to a lot of different interpretation) message from the Bible?

Or to put it another way, if what the pilots did is wrong, what bit of the Bible should have made that clear to them