What level of racism is tolerated on Boards.ie?

Gandalf23

Hi all,
I was just wondering what would happen if I posted something like the following in a thread ...

"I think Nigerians are a nation of unintelligent slackers, and are also all stupid".

I just want to emphasise that I DO NOT think or believe this. I'm just wondering what would happen if I posted this. Would it be considered racism? Would I be banned (or at the very least warned)?

Just curious ...

Karl Hungus

There's no set outline, or standard as to what is acceptable. That comment might get you sitebanned, or there might be no consequence, bar what other posters think of your opinion.

In general, I'd say it's best not to make any kind of statement like that one.

biko

It's all in context, although initially your quote seems quite racist.
However, are they slackers and stupid because they are black or because of some other reason, perhaps they have no opportunities because of government corruption?

Second statement says nothing of race and so would not be racist imo.

SxE Punk

What about if you state something based on personal experience?

Example: In my experience, most Polish immigrants are dismissive of the Irish natives and other immigrant communities, preferring to stick with their own and avoid integration at all costs.

Would that be considered racist or just a controversial personal opinion?

biko

SxE Punk wrote: »

What about if you state something based on personal experience?

Example: In my experience, most Polish immigrants

Have you met all these people you talk about ("most Polish")? If not then you generalise.

Boston

Replace Nigerians with "the hated English" and we're good to go. To my mind the preferred method for handling racist posts is to rip them apart. Not I make a distinction between racist and hateful. Hateful posts are generally not tolerated, regardless of what grouping they are targeted at.

Kotek Besar

Boston wrote: »

Replace Nigerians with "the hated English" and we're good to go..

Oi!

Boston

Shiminay

Well that gave me a good LOL Boston, cheers!

Karoma

OP: The answer is there is no answer. One or two people will reply and tell me I'm wrong, but they're wrong. I'm right. >_>
It depends on the context - and a factor of this is the forum.
Was that the sum of the post? Was it leading somewhere? Was it in response to something? What? Hit the report post icon on the post if you want a moderator to look at a concrete example confidentially.

People are allowed have differing opinions and views, even racist views, but there is a limit - if they are consistently pushing an agenda, inciting violence, attacking another poster because of their race, stupid and pointless racist rants will usually just get binned and possibly a ban, etc.

DeVore

Karoma posted all smarty and clever.


I is scared.

DeV.

Karoma

You should be; you're usually wrong and I'm right. Opinion is fact, damnit!

Giblet

Well the answer is no racism. The problem is that a lot of people pull out the racism ironing board when in fact the statements aren't filled with the wrinkles of bigotry.

faceman

Dont forget though, just because someone doesnt or didnt intend to offend, doesnt make it any less offensive.

DeVore

Generalisation (that is, extrapolation to an larger group from a limited number of experiences, ie: datapoints, which has a very low level of confidence) where the larger group is a nationality or race...

Thats pretty much my definition of racism. I generally leave it to individual mods to make that call.

DeV.

Karoma

And this is why I was trying to avoid this debate - it usually ends up splitting hairs ("What is racism?", "it's not racism, it's bigotry! nyerr", etc.)
We moderate problems and problematic users. It's a judgement call. In AH, we allow generalisations. We'll allow racist or non-PC crap during the course of an arguement. We'll even allow an obviously out-right racist argument - we're not the thought-police - as long as they don't keep pushing an agenda (see: shyjoe.) or drag everything into a race issue (See: pepper and her multiple accounts). They're daft threads but it's not a moderators place to change people's attitudes or opinions. Members have the right to express their opinion as long as it's not directly harming others ('IMHO').
Something obviously unacceptable would be something like replying to a thread about Benazir Bhutto's assassination with "dat stupid paki deserved it. all pakis shud die!!1!" - it's noise that doesn't add to an arguement or discussion, it incites violence, and may affect (and discourage) Pakistani members.

DeVore

The posts that are tolerated in AH wouldnt be tolerated in Politics or Humanities. I agree with that. I think people who complain to us about "allowing rascism" really should understand that we are a platform on which the public say things. As much as I dont want to host a platform for racists to spew, I agree with karoma that we should be wary when we start to curb publically held opinions and the debate around them. People would be better off complaining about why the public holds those opinions and what can be done about it.

The mods walk a very fine line. So fine, it sometimes isnt there...

DeV.

Terry

Regarding AH and the level of racism allowed there; during my run as a mod there, I tried to curb it as much as possible.

Like Karoma said though, you can't dictate what a certain person holds as their own opinion.
We, as moderators, can try to keep racism to a minimum, but we cannot change the mind of every bigot, racist, liberal or love all hippy.

Earlier today I deleted a post in AH.
It was regarding peole begging at traffic lights.
I don't like deleting post or locking threads, but sometimes it just has to be done.
Here's the post:

They're not human. They're filth and scum. Should all be burned alive if you ask me.

This was directed a people who beg at traffic lights.
I, along with a few AH regulars, who reported the post, found it to be in poor taste. As a result, it was deleted (by Giblet, not me. I'm drunk. Blow me).
The person who made the post was given an infraction.
As a result of this, other mods will be able to check on the person's history and act on any other dodgy posts accordingly.

While AH may be more liberal than other forums, it is not a playground for racist people.
A certain amount of bigotry is tolerated, but most of it is in jest.
Certain people take a dig at the English, but English members here are given the opportunity to respond and throw a few digs back.

WhiteWashMan

This is about a thread in motors and with regard to the French.
The OP mailed me twice telling me to sort it out. I said I would leave it to the moderators of the forum to sort it if they saw fit, and that he shold post here if he is unhappy.

I just wish people would give all the information first off, so that people can give an informed opinion on the matter, rather than using an if a=c and b=c, then by your logic, a=b.

Anyway, I didnt see anything perticularly wrong with it, and I would exect the mods in the motors forum to sort it out.

Besides, I reckon most people who read spastic all encompassing gneralisations about races etc can make up their own mind as to the validity of someones argument.

Gandalf23

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

This is about a thread in motors and with regard to the French.
The OP mailed me twice telling me to sort it out. I said I would leave it to the moderators of the forum to sort it if they saw fit, and that he shold post here if he is unhappy.

I just wish people would give all the information first off, so that people can give an informed opinion on the matter, rather than using an if a=c and b=c, then by your logic, a=b.

Anyway, I didnt see anything perticularly wrong with it, and I would exect the mods in the motors forum to sort it out.

Besides, I reckon most people who read spastic all encompassing gneralisations about races etc can make up their own mind as to the validity of someones argument.

Apologies for that ... the thread I'm talking about here

I have to admit I was sorta offended by the posts by 99er ... it's not acceptible in my view that blatant outright racism such as this be allowed on a moderated forum such as boards. I was also shocked that the mods didnt do a little more about it, (altho I take on board everything said by Karoma, DeVore et al above).

Maybe I'm being over sensitive but like Edmund Burke once said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I was NOT prepared to do nothing about the racist and offensive crap this idiot was spouting.

faceman

You'd be banned for this post on some forum! :eek: Dont tell the other gandalf!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54693372&postcount=6

dewsbury

Is is racist to say the Irish drink more than most nations in the world ??

Is it racist to say the English tend to be more reserved than than Americans?

Is it racist to stereotype Australians having bar-b-ques and corks bobbing out of their hats?

In the 1990's a chief of police in London stated that most burglaries were committed by young males of a certain colour. Was this racist?

Kotek Besar

dewsbury wrote: »

Is is racist to say the Irish drink more than most nations in the world ??

Is it racist to say the English tend to be more reserved than than Americans?

Is it racist to stereotype Australians having bar-b-ques and corks bobbing out of their hats?

In the 1990's a chief of police in London stated that most burglaries were committed by young males of a certain colour. Was this racist?

No to all.

faceman

dewsbury wrote: »

Is is racist to say the Irish drink more than most nations in the world ??

not racist, but a broad stereotyping generallisation and massive inaccuracy? Yes.

biko

dewsbury wrote: »

Is is racist to say the Irish drink more than most nations in the world ??

Is it racist to say the English tend to be more reserved than than Americans?

Is it racist to stereotype Australians having bar-b-ques and corks bobbing out of their hats?

In the 1990's a chief of police in London stated that most burglaries were committed by young males of a certain colour. Was this racist?

None above is racist, I googled racism definitions for you.

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

1. belief in or doctrine asserting racial differences in character, intelligence, etc. and the superiority of one race over another or others: racist doctrine also, typically, seeks to maintain the supposed purity of a race or the races
2. any program or practice of racial discrimination, segregation, etc., specif., such a program or practice that upholds the political or economic domination of one race over another or others
3. feelings or actions of hatred and bigotry toward a person or persons because of their race

Gandalf23

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another race or races".

So to answer your questions ...

dewsbury wrote: »

Is is racist to say the Irish drink more than most nations in the world ??

Not necessarily because this can be statistically proven or disproven. Also because this is not necessarily an insult to the Irish, and does not distinguish us as being either superior or inferior to another race or races.

dewsbury wrote: »

Is it racist to say the English tend to be more reserved than than Americans?

No because this may not be construed as (according to the definition above) a "characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another race or races."

dewsbury wrote: »

Is it racist to stereotype Australians having bar-b-ques and corks bobbing out of their hats?

No (see answer for the English above).

dewsbury wrote: »

In the 1990's a chief of police in London stated that most burglaries were committed by young males of a certain colour. Was this racist?

No this is not racist as it was a statement of fact and could be supported by statistics.

My belief is that racism is pretty much as defined above. To say that the French are (and I'm quoting here directly from Ninety9er's posts) ...
"... a nation of unintelligent rioters", and to also say "my decision won't be based on any domestic issues as that would be plain stupid and stooping to the French level of intelligence" is a racist remark. There can be no argument about this ... the remarks meet the legal definition of racism and any person making such comments is a racist.

All this is made worse by the fact the the guy refused to apologise or withdraw the remarks.

Gandalf23

biko wrote: »

None above is racist, I googled racism definitions for you.

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

1. belief in or doctrine asserting racial differences in character, intelligence, etc. and the superiority of one race over another or others: racist doctrine also, typically, seeks to maintain the supposed purity of a race or the races
2. any program or practice of racial discrimination, segregation, etc., specif., such a program or practice that upholds the political or economic domination of one race over another or others
3. feelings or actions of hatred and bigotry toward a person or persons because of their race

This is my point!

In my opinion anyone saying (again quoting from Ninety9er's posts directly)...
1. "I would consider the French to be a nation of unintelligent rioters", and
2. "my decision won't be based on any domestic issues as that would be plain stupid and stooping to the French level of intelligence" ...

is a racist!

These comments meet all generally accepted definitions of racism and I would consider anyone making such comment as a racist.

nesf

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Maybe I'm being over sensitive

Pretty much.

RoundyMooney

You are being a little over sensitive OP. No harm in that, it happens to all of us from time to time when we get caught up in a debate on thread.

In AH, that comment would be well below the radar. In a more serious forum, such as Politics etc., it would quite posibly have merited removal, with reprimand.

Our Admin's house has many rooms, some are less highbrow than others.

Personally, I feel that the comment, and subsequent sidetracking, had feck all to do with the topic at hand, or motoring in general, and should have seen the OT stuff removed, while leaving the essence of the thread intact.

The only thing I have against the French is their inability to make reliable cars any more, a topic that sees quite a bit of debate on Motors. As it should.

SubjectSean

Slagging Nigerians isn't racist, I know lots of Africans who slag Nigerians bigtime (but it's the Hausa who aren't generally liked and the Ibo are OK). It's just the same as slagging any other nation really. Like the Irish slag the Brits some but mostly they're objecting to the Saxons. However if you slagged everybody on the planet with similar skin to Nigerians; or not even slagged them but just classed them the same as Nigerians on the basis of their skin, then that would be racist.

SubjectSean

dewsbury wrote: »

Is is racist to say the Irish drink more than most nations in the world ??

No, it might be factually wrong but it isn't racist, we aren't a race we're a nationality

dewsbury wrote: »

Is it racist to say the English tend to be more reserved than than Americans?

Same as above really

dewsbury wrote: »

Is it racist to stereotype Australians having bar-b-ques and corks bobbing out of their hats?

And again

dewsbury wrote: »

In the 1990's a chief of police in London stated that most burglaries were committed by young males of a certain colour. Was this racist?

It sure was, he should have picked out second and third generation Afro-Carribeans. But then again they're all just 'darkies' to him I suppose and he couldn't distinguish.

faceman

SubjectSean wrote: »

No, it might be factually wrong but it isn't racist, we aren't a race we're a nationality.

lol, sorry! quote of the month!

SubjectSean

faceman wrote: »

lol, sorry! quote of the month!

You think there are 193 different races of human beings?

Or just that the Irish are the biggest pissheads on the planet?

GuanYin

Personally, I go with context. If you want to make a statement about a race, nationality, religion or gender, you should damn well be able to back it up.


Some folk thing that biggotry is all the tasty goodness of racism without any of that nasty social guilt.... not in my book.

DeVore wrote: »

As much as I dont want to host a platform for racists to spew

Hey, you once told me at a beers you'd create a stormfront forum. I'm still waiting and hoping

Gandalf23 wrote: »

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "racism is a belief

Who are you? Lionel Hutz?

Blowfish

SubjectSean wrote: »

No, it might be factually wrong but it isn't racist, we aren't a race we're a nationality

It wouldn't be a good idea to stick to such a simple definition of racism. The UN define it as:

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

parsi

The thread in question was becoming a thread that was highlighting possible deficiencies in our current Government.

Ninty9er is an avowed member of the party which is the majority party in our Government and therefore must have felt under pressure and used the phrase "stoop to the French level of Intelligence" as a possible codeword for "vote as the Whip tells me" or " vote as intsructed by Mount Street".

His utterances should be viewed in this light.

It should also be noted that there is a general view that the French public is more coherent in its opposition to bad government and often support what would often be classed as sectoral interests in Ireland - they are perceived as having the view that ok the rail unions are striking but this could be me whereas the individualistic view perpetrated and encouraged by FF/PD is "why should we support them feckers..?"

SubjectSean

Blowfish wrote: »

It wouldn't be a good idea to stick to such a simple definition of racism. The UN define it as:

That's a good definition alright but ironically the term 'racism' is in itself slightly 'racist' as it subscribes to the notion of 'race'. As this is an entirely subjective and continually re-invented social construct, rather than a scientific one, I hope that one day the UN kicks it to the kerb. Personally I believe there is only once race of humans on this planet having different cultures and ethnicities. 'Race' as we know it, is the invention and 'justification' of the slavers. I'd like to see all that race baggage dropped in the dirt where it belongs before it gets do any more harm.

I tend to think of the reputation of the Irish as very heavy drinkers, as an ethnic slur........

Blowfish

SubjectSean wrote:

That's a good definition alright but ironically the term 'racism' is in itself slightly 'racist' as it subscribes to the notion of 'race'. As this is an entirely subjective and continually re-invented social construct, rather than a scientific one, I hope that one day the UN kicks it to the kerb. Personally I believe there is only once race of humans on this planet having different cultures and ethnicities. 'Race' as we know it, is the invention and 'justification' of the slavers. I'd like to see all that race baggage dropped in the dirt where it belongs before it gets do any more harm.

I do agree with you, but it would be pretty difficult for them to define racism without actually relying on using the definition of the social construct that is 'race'.

SubjectSean wrote:

I tend to think of the reputation of the Irish as very heavy drinkers, as an ethnic slur........

The big big problem with seeing this as a slur of any kind, is that it's actually true (OECD study).

This is exactly why context as mentioned by Karoma is critical. It's a case sometimes not of what the poster said, but why they said it that defines if it's racist/bigotist/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-ist. Unless it's a blatant hate rant, or the poster has a history of posting similar things, it's not always an easy judgment call to make, hence the varying level of tolerance allowed across different forums.

DublinWriter

Just preface any statement with "I'm not racist, but..."

Works a treat.

WhiteWashMan

Perhaps you should all take your debate on what 'racism' actually is over to the humanities forum?
it just goes to show that everyone has a different opinion. Which is why I leave it to the mods to decide what they feel should be allowed, or not.

Terry

I admire the French for their strong stance on bad government (the Spanish too (ref: the aftermath of the Madrid bombings)).
We should be more like them when it comes to ousting governments.
Posting on AH about how you think that Berite is a dick will not change a single thing.

Gordon

DublinWriter wrote: »

Just preface any statement with "I'm not racist, but..."

Works a treat.

I'm not a racist but your breath smells.

SubjectSean

Blowfish wrote: »

The big big problem with seeing this as a slur of any kind, is that it's actually true (OECD study).

Hmmm so I see, but look at the French they're out in front of us and nobody is giving them the slagging we get. Also if you look at the historical stats from the OECD our rise to near the top of the table is a fairly recent one yet the reputation we have is hundreds of years old.

PeakOutput

i believe people should be allowed to express whatever opinions they like as long as it is not directed personally at anyone on the site.

*disclaimer* i dont necessarily believe the below

i should be allowed to say "in general americans are fat lazy uneducated egotistical fools"

i shouldnt be allowed to say " *insert boards screenname here* you are obviously a fat lazy uneducated egotistical fool just like every other american"

maybe no1 else sees the difference in that but its just my thoughts.

Nevyn

What level of sexism is allowed on the site ?

6th

Thaedydal wrote: »

What level of sexism is allowed on the site ?

None of your business women!

















*Runs and hides :eek:

nesf

Thaedydal wrote: »

What level of sexism is allowed on the site ?

Pretty much anything goes outside of looking to incite violence against men in the home.

Nevyn

nesf wrote: »

Pretty much anything goes outside of looking to incite violence against men in the home.

Hobbes

SxE Punk wrote: »

Example: In my experience, most Polish immigrants I have met are dismissive of the Irish natives and other immigrant communities, preferring to stick with their own and avoid integration at all costs.

Would that be considered racist or just a controversial personal opinion?

Fixed it for you so its personal opinion rather then racist.

Hobbes

I'm more curious about the OP point. If its academic reason then use humanities as WWMan said. If it is to determine what you can get away with your probably likely to be banned sometime soon. If it is you took offense at a post then report it.

GuanYin

I'm not racist, I just plain hate white people.