You told me so...

LegacyUser

i know you're all gonna internet-kick me for this, but still. you know the story, ex-bf, cheated, lied after three dates and then dumped me when i found out. now he says he loves me. in fairness, i might love him. is there any documented evidence ofthis kind of thing working out, or am i an idiot?(you can say option b...everyone else i know has)

uptherebels

the way i see it is if someone cheats once it will probably happen again.also if it was me i wouldnt get back with them as the trust is gone and i would spend our time apart wondering if they were off with someone else.

TEH REAL CDP

He doesn't love you.

He's a posessive, insecure, manipulative horny boll*x who has probably been found out by a few other girls. It will happen again. Documented evidence? Divorce papers maybe. Just ditch it. You don't need the paranoia, the hassle or him. Do yourself a favour and cut contact.

greenteaicedtea

actions speak louder than words. No matter what he says now, he sounds like he's not treated you right in the past. I would stay away from someone like that, if he seesaws between treating you well and badly, well you don't need that.

m83

[puts on kickin' boots]


move on! he sounds like a grade A schmuck!

Mighty_Mouse

lied after three dates

How can he be your bf after 3 dates?

There's a whole initial period when both people are entitled to see other people that should probably be taken into consideration here.

qz

Get rid of him, sounds like an absolute prick tbh.

Mr. Incognito

This just cannot be a real post. Really. If you are a tangible person you need to grow a spine.

LegacyUser

see now, mighty mouse has a good point. he did this after 3 dates, i found out nearly a year later. and i know- I KNOW- it sounds like a terrible idea. i know he hasn't been good to me. but he still makes me happy, and do u think, maybe, if it's a choice between being happy and not, then....? no?

ali.c

youtoldmeso wrote: »

i know he hasn't been good to me. but he still makes me happy, and do u think, maybe, if it's a choice between being happy and not, then....? no?

How will you be happy with someone who doesnt treat you well? Just curious, tbh i think after 3 dates its hardly a deal breaker but then we dont know what other problems have been going on in your relationship.

I dont think its a choice between being happy or not, if he doesnt treat you well then to me its a choice of self-respect or not tbh....................

Lux23

Just wait and see what he is willing to do to win you back. If he really loves you he will walk over hot coals for you, if he isn't then it will be fun to watch him squirm for a while.

Mighty_Mouse

he did this after 3 dates, i found out nearly a year later. and i know- I KNOW- it sounds like a terrible idea. i know he hasn't been good to me.

Ok your original question was the cheating after 3 dates thing.
Are you now saying that ye dated for a year and other "bad things" happened?
He dumped you after you found out he cheated a year later?
What exactly is the problem?

TBH tis too hard to figure out exactly what the prob is here

Lux23

So you dated him for at least a year but you found out much later that he was with someone while he was seeing you. Thats changes things, if I was only in the beginning of something with someone I wouldn't expect any kind of commitment until we had a proper chat about things.

K_P

OP you need to clarify the situation.

Your bf cheated on your after ye had been on 3 dates. Was it a one-off that you found out about a year later? Was it going on for the entire time you were together?

Two very different situations so it's hard to give advice without clarification.

Quality

youtoldmeso wrote: »

see now, mighty mouse has a good point. he did this after 3 dates, i found out nearly a year later. and i know- I KNOW- it sounds like a terrible idea. i know he hasn't been good to me. but he still makes me happy, and do u think, maybe, if it's a choice between being happy and not, then....? no?

I think you already have your mind made up and you are just looking for someone to tell you to stay with him and that everything is going to be great....

LegacyUser

ok, sorry, i should have been clearer really, but i didnt want to bore you! its all very predictable really. we went out for nearly a year, several not great things happened, eg. he told me to lose weight(im a size 8), he was really jealous and slightly threatened the lads i work with, he put a lot of pressure on me to prioritise him, while im not sure if he did in return, etc, etc. all surmountable, i think. i then found out that he had slept with someone and posted it on the internet, during the VERY early stages of our relationship.(3dates, as i mentioned). i found this on the internet. i confronted him, he first of all denied it, then blamed me for spying, then got angry, then....after a while....got apologetic. i decided we could work through it(it was only three dates, as pointed out, thats not a committed stage) and we saw each other again. after about a week, he dumped me via text. i was also in hospital at the time, but for totally unrelated reasons.
alright, now i know this sounds ridiculous, when you see it all laid out like that. my mind understands that he behaved poorly, and thats not a good thing. however, my emotions are still really involved here, and i still love him.
i suppose, the question im trying to ask here, however ineloquently, is how much of a decision can you make with your heart, and does it ever turn out ok?
you can say no it doesnt, im not looking to be comforted here, though thank you everyone so much for your understanding in this and not web-screaming at me, "IDIOT", i'd just really like an unbiased opinion about the whole situation. obviously both he and my close friends and family have a certain bias, and it makes it hard to see it objectively. many thanks for the replies so far and any further advice you've got!

Wibbs

Heart or not, love and a committed relationship takes two. In this situation there seems to be oly one heart involved and that's you. The apres 3 dates bit wouldn't freak me as much as the jealous controlling behaviour. Run away, basically and start to realise you don't need to be in a relationship to be a full person.

t_ucd

youtoldmeso wrote: »

i know you're all gonna internet-kick me for this, but still. you know the story, ex-bf, cheated, lied after three dates and then dumped me when i found out. now he says he loves me. in fairness, i might love him. is there any documented evidence ofthis kind of thing working out, or am i an idiot?(you can say option b...everyone else i know has)

I went through almost the exact same thing - this guy whom I knew was not a very good person told me he loved me, I convinced myself I convinced myself I loved him too. It took me a while to cop on it was never going to work out because he was never going to change and that's 6 months of my life I'll never get back! So my advice - stay as far away from him as you can, to be honest.

estar

youtoldmeso wrote: »

i know you're all gonna internet-kick me for this, but still. you know the story, ex-bf, cheated, lied after three dates and then dumped me when i found out. now he says he loves me. in fairness, i might love him. is there any documented evidence ofthis kind of thing working out, or am i an idiot?(you can say option b...everyone else i know has)

when the love word without any supporting actions is mentioned.

give yourself the advice you would give a loved friend in the same situation and then take your own advice.

K_P

Wibbs wrote: »

Heart or not, love and a committed relationship takes two. In this situation there seems to be oly one heart involved and that's you. The apres 3 dates bit wouldn't freak me as much as the jealous controlling behaviour. Run away, basically and start to realise you don't need to be in a relationship to be a full person.

+1

The sleeping with someone else at the early stages of your relationship is forgivable. Just about though. In my eyes, it's still a betrayal, but it would be surmountable. But telling you to lose weight, regardless of size really, but when you're a size 8? :eek: Jealous of your male friends, demanding you make time for him when he doesn't do the same for you. It's too controlling, too creepy in my opinion.

I'm sure he has wonderful qualities too and that you had some great times together. But, for me, the controlling behaviour outweighs those.

As for your question: how much of a decision can you make with your heart? As much as you like. It doesn't mean it's the right decision though. Good luck.

b3t4

Noone who behaves in the manner you've outlined loves you.

There is SOOO much better out there and if you hang on to this distructive relationship you could miss out on it.

tritium

OP, afraid your ex is a nasty little scumbag.

You say he's threathened your workmates - hopefully your workmates have put this to one side and not held it against you. If they have, lucky you to have nice workmates, since this kind of thing could very easily also land you in an awkward spot with people who you have to work with.

He has control issues - you do not want to be seeing someone who has extreme possessiveness issues. Long run all you'll get for your trouble is stress and heartache

He's cheated on you - if he's done it once, and treated you badly since, do you really think he hasn't done it again. People like this, in my humble experience, tend to be VERY good manipulators and liars. The funny thing is the longer you're there and the more you get sucked into it, the weaker their lies have to be.

I don't know what the appeal of seeing a creature like this is, maybe its that he makes you feel good after he makes you feel bad. Honestly, you're better shot of him. Anyone who thinks that behaving like a scumbag to someone they profess to care about is acceptable deserves to be alone. There's a lot of good guys out there, please find yourself one who'll treat you well and lose this loser

gamer

ITS unlikely he,s in love with you ,he just wants a girlfriend,if you stay ,he,ll cheat on you, the longer you stay ,the worse it will get.BREAK up,you,ll get over this relationship.HE wants to be in a relationship,but hes not respecting you or your friends.You cant change him,so its best to move on.HEs not treating you as an equal,he has control issues.HE sounds like a selfish,ignorant macho oaf.If you leave him ,you,ll find a nice decent man in the future,someone who,ll treat you as an equal.If he goes off on a 1night stand ,he,s putting you at risk of an std.HES immature ,he is not ready to settle down with some1 in a mature 50/50 relationship.I know women like bad boys,but you have to think,do you wanna marry some like this.

WhiteWashMan

Move on. He's is probably just feeling lonely and reckons he'd rather be with you than not be with someone at all.

LegacyUser

alright, you'd swear im the most indecisive person in the world, but honestly, im confused. he now wants to get married and move in together. on one hand, this is walking over hot coals, right lux? on the other, is he just a master manipulater? im not actually in a getting married sort of position right now(im 20,in college,he's 26,career sorted) but....i dont know. ?

TEH REAL CDP

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

Move on. He's is probably just feeling lonely and reckons he'd rather be with you than not be with someone at all.

Spot on.

Seriously, people can be utter twats. You have not painted a pretty portrait of him. He sounds like a grade A dick who has no respect for himself, women or anything for that matter.

6 years is a big difference. Do you really want to be tied down at this stage for the rest of your life. How would you feel if *THIS* was it for the next 30 odd years. Paranoia, Lack of trust, Mood swings???

Stop being a doormat, get a backbone and stand up for yourself. What about your career? Are you gonna bow to his every whim?

This marraige craic sounds like he knows you are growing a spine and its his blatant last ditch desperation move to tie you in. Pretty clever imo.

I'm pretty sure there's a bus which will take you teh opposite direction of wherever he is. I'd suggest you take it. You deserve better.

Learn from this and move on. Don't make one of the biggest mistakes of your life. Every other female has spotted this and now he's crawling back to you. Don't be so naieve.

MagicMarker

youtoldmeso wrote: »

alright, you'd swear im the most indecisive person in the world, but honestly, im confused. he now wants to get married and move in together. on one hand, this is walking over hot coals, right lux? on the other, is he just a master manipulater? im not actually in a getting married sort of position right now(im 20,in college,he's 26,career sorted) but....i dont know. ?

I apologise in advance.

You are a grade A fool. That's really all i can say. You really are a weak person. It's not your fault, but if you continue to let it happen then you deserve everything you get from this guy in the future.

Wibbs

I agree with MagicMarker on this point, except for one thing. You are a weak person, but it is your fault. It can be no one elses.

It is only not your fault if you don't realise it. At this point you should, so there are fewer and fewer excuses you can use for letting someone else treat you badly. You're letting them, in fact you're helping them to do it.

Now you should stand back and look at how you view relationships. If you view what you have now as anything like an appealing, mature, equal relationship then you have some questions to ask yourself. For a start you must like it in some way, or it confirms to you how you already feel about yourself. If not you would have left. I'm sure you've dropped guys before. They might have even been treating you OK at the time. Join the dots if you will.

Now a lot will blame the guy for being a scumbag etc. and that's fine, but if you had a dog and every time it bit you you gave it a treat, then you wouldn't be too quick to blame the dog alone, as it's no wonder it will continue to bite you and you will deserve the pain from it.

Same with this guy or the next ad nauseum, until you grow a pair and start to have some self respect. This does not mean turning into a grade A bitch either(a common mistake). It means knowing yourself, knowing what you may need and what you may want. A relationship falls into the second category BTW.

Oryx

youtoldmeso wrote: »

alright, you'd swear im the most indecisive person in the world, but honestly, im confused. he now wants to get married and move in together. on one hand, this is walking over hot coals, right lux? on the other, is he just a master manipulater? im not actually in a getting married sort of position right now(im 20,in college,he's 26,career sorted) but....i dont know. ?

oh dear this post makes me shudder. Please tell me your not considering this right now,please. You said it yourself, youre not ready.

This man sounds like a manipulative piece of work. He tries to control your looks (weight), who you see, wants to be 'prioritised' in your life. And when he thinks youre indecisive about him he puts forward the wonderful idea of marraige to win you over? It sounds really dodgy to me. I think youre setting yourself up for big problems. Sure it could work out, but are you willing to compromise yourself for a man who seems so controlling? People can change, really they can. But all Im hearing about your guy from your posts is someone who is promising you the sun moon and stars to get you where he wants you.

Wibbs

I agree kTk people can change, but only if they want to, have a good reason to, do it for themselves and actually work at it. That's a lot to be going on with, hence for most it's a case of a leopard won't change it's spots.

In any case she needs to change. She's the only one who can. Waiting around for someone else to change is a fools errant.

Oryx

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree kTk people can change, but only if they want to, have a good reason to, do it for themselves and actually work at it. That's a lot to be going on with, hence for most it's a case of a leopard won't change it's spots.

In any case she needs to change. She's the only one who can. Waiting around for someone else to change is a fools errant.

My point was people can change, but I really dont think this guy is changing. Im loath to ever tell anyone straight out not to do something, its the OPs decision after all. But if the op is posting here cos she has these doubts, then I think thats enough not to get back with this guy, especially if its leading to marrying him.

LegacyUser

thanks for the replies. while its not entirely pleasant to be called weak, i recognise it may be what i need to hear, so thank you. i have been listening to these kind of comments for a while from friends, and i do think they get through to me. the problem is im not getting over it.
over the summer, we broke up, i went away, there were other guys, but im still centred on this one. similarly, i know there are a number of guys i could call right now, and we'd be a couple tomorrow(sorry,i dont mean that the egocentric way it came out), but i still want this one. despite all evidence to the contrary, i do consider myself a smart girl, and i know i'd be telling a friend in this situation to RUN. but i still have a lot of love for him, and part of me believes i couldnt STILL feel this way unless he really was special.
i know i havent painted a pretty picture, and thats partially because i need to hear the harsh reality. but do remember these incidents were over the course of time, and i think if anyone looks back over any relationship, even a friend, there may be one or two unsavoury memories over the course of the year. furthermore, there is this three date thing- he claims he didnt love me then, and does now, so it would never happen again. you're totally right in that i'm not looking for a forever right now, but a "for a while" doesnt seem like a terrible thing.

Wibbs

youtoldmeso wrote: »

while its not entirely pleasant to be called weak, i recognise it may be what i need to hear, so thank you. i have been listening to these kind of comments for a while from friends, and i do think they get through to me. the problem is im not getting over it.

And you wont until you decide to. It sounds easy to write, but its just as easy to do believe it or not.

over the summer, we broke up, i went away, there were other guys, but im still centred on this one. similarly, i know there are a number of guys i could call right now, and we'd be a couple tomorrow(sorry,i dont mean that the egocentric way it came out), but i still want this one.

Mainly because he's a challenge. Common that one. The other guys are too easy. You know where you stand and can get them by "calling them". You're in the "I want what I'm not sure I have" mindset. Add that he obviously values himself more than you value yourself and basically you're hooked. "Nice" guys who are always just friends with women they fancy take note of some of this(not him being a prick part).

despite all evidence to the contrary, i do consider myself a smart girl, and i know i'd be telling a friend in this situation to RUN.

Ask yourself why you would give that advice and then ask yourself why you're not taking it.

but i still have a lot of love for him, and part of me believes i couldnt STILL feel this way unless he really was special.

Honestly? That's the greatest load of crap you could write. Don't be insulted. Another very common one. A hell of a lot of people think the same. Of course you could feel that way. I did way back before I copped on.

I'll let you in a little secret..... To him, it really doesn't matter what you think of him. It really doesn't matter how much you love him, or how well you treat him. What really matters to him is what he thinks of you, how much he loves you and how he wants to treat you. That's what it boils down to.

Flip this around. What about those other guys you don't want. Imagine one of them loves you as much as you love your guy. Imagine he tells you and shows you how much he cares. Would you go out with him based on that? Nope, because what you care about is how you feel about him. It's all on one side. His. That's why it won't matter to you beyond simple flattery. Simple stuff.

For a relationship to work, both have to have an input that's at least vaguely equal. You don't seem to have that.

i know i havent painted a pretty picture, and thats partially because i need to hear the harsh reality. but do remember these incidents were over the course of time, and i think if anyone looks back over any relationship, even a friend, there may be one or two unsavoury memories over the course of the year.

Yes but it depends on how unsavoury and TBH you sound like someone with a high threshold for unsavoury.

furthermore, there is this three date thing- he claims he didnt love me then, and does now, so it would never happen again.

That's fair.

you're totally right in that i'm not looking for a forever right now, but a "for a while" doesnt seem like a terrible thing.

What you should be looking for right now is respect. If you didn't feel something was amiss, we wouldn't be here, would we?

WhiteWashMan

youtoldmeso wrote: »

thanks for the replies. while its not entirely pleasant to be called weak, i recognise it may be what i need to hear, so thank you. i have been listening to these kind of comments for a while from friends, and i do think they get through to me. the problem is im not getting over it.
over the summer, we broke up, i went away, there were other guys, but im still centred on this one. similarly, i know there are a number of guys i could call right now, and we'd be a couple tomorrow(sorry,i dont mean that the egocentric way it came out), but i still want this one. despite all evidence to the contrary, i do consider myself a smart girl, and i know i'd be telling a friend in this situation to RUN. but i still have a lot of love for him, and part of me believes i couldnt STILL feel this way unless he really was special.
i know i havent painted a pretty picture, and thats partially because i need to hear the harsh reality. but do remember these incidents were over the course of time, and i think if anyone looks back over any relationship, even a friend, there may be one or two unsavoury memories over the course of the year. furthermore, there is this three date thing- he claims he didnt love me then, and does now, so it would never happen again. you're totally right in that i'm not looking for a forever right now, but a "for a while" doesnt seem like a terrible thing.

focus on all the negative aspects of your past relationships with this person.

Hell, write out a pros and cons list.

And while I think of it, I think I know what the problem is. Youre 20 right? Is this your first love? I mean your first real love?

If so, forget it. Move on. It took me about 7 years to get over my first love, and I still think fondly of her. BUt your first love will always have the magnetic sway over you.

Listen, you will change so much in the next 5 years. You will develope as a person, change your attitudes, your beliefs, your looks. Everyone does it. Its natural. While you may have this strong urge and 'natural gut instinct' that this is really what you want, you have to look past it. Getting married at 20 is preposterous in my opinion anyway. Far too young. You have a life to live, go live it. You dont need to be chained to the kitchen sink from the age of 21 for the rest of your life.

And i suggest you call up those guys, **** every one of them, have the time of your life, go out, feel good about yourself, and let youself heal.

You owe it to yourself. ANd hey, you know what, if its meant to be, he will still be there in 5 years time. And if you still have those feelings, go for it. But dont shut off and close doors you may not be able to open for a very long time. You will regret it more in the future if you dont give yourself a chance.

trust me on this one.

tritium

youtoldmeso wrote: »

thanks for the replies. while its not entirely pleasant to be called weak, i recognise it may be what i need to hear, so thank you. i have been listening to these kind of comments for a while from friends, and i do think they get through to me. the problem is im not getting over it.

Wibbs covered this nicely. Getting over someone is hard. Its painful and the easiest thing is to avoid it. Unfortunately like lots of other 'easiest things' its actually the worst thing you can do here. Think of it like lancing a boil - not pleasant, but necessary.

youtoldmeso wrote: »

i still have a lot of love for him, and part of me believes i couldnt STILL feel this way unless he really was special.

And that part of you is wrong! You want to believe he's special - you know he's an asshole! Its never easy to admit that our feelings are wrong. Often we choose to ignore the evidence in front of us rather than admit that we've been emotionally naive! That doesn't make the evidence go away. The best test I can offer is would you want your best friend or sister going out with someone who treated them like this - you've already answered that

youtoldmeso wrote: »

i know i havent painted a pretty picture, and thats partially because i need to hear the harsh reality. but do remember these incidents were over the course of time,

which is exactly the problem. we're not talking about a once off, it's several. Basically everyone at some time has done stupid or selfish things in a relationship. However, if you can look back over the relationship and say this stuff happened consistently, or repeatedly, then you can't help concluding that your ex is a nasty piece of work you sees you as nothing more than a plaything for his amusement

youtoldmeso wrote: »

this three date thing- he claims he didnt love me then, and does now, so it would never happen again. you're totally right in that i'm not looking for a forever right now, but a "for a while" doesnt seem like a terrible thing.

Well, he would say this I'm afraid. I'm not saying that the original situation was unforgivable, but look at it this way. He cheated on you, but claims he now loves you. Shouldn't he be doing his damndest to show you this?

Honestly OP, the marry me and move in together thing is the oldest line in the book. It seems tempting because it assures you that somehow your emotions were right. But if you step back for a second, do you really believe it? Do you think that he'd treat you any better if you lived together? Do you think he'd even follow through on it once he's gotten what he wants? This isn't hot coals he's walking over OP, it actually looks more like cold manipulation

MIN2511

OP, i think you would get back with your ex. Cause if everyone around you has warned you to let go and you still have doubts there is no need beating about the bush.
Just don't come back here crying.

LegacyUser

alright,so thats a 100% support rate for the "leave him" camp. that's all i need to know really. thanks for all your replies and advice, i appreciate the time and consideration.

Mighty_Mouse

i know there are a number of guys i could call right now, and we'd be a couple tomorrow(sorry,i dont mean that the egocentric way it came out),

Why are you so so pathetic?
Dont mean to be harsh , but read back on frail, fragile nature of your own posts.

I mean FFS you dont have to apologise for every statement you make.

Point is, nobody here can help you.

Try to remember you only get one chance at life.
So you need to choose wisely how you'll live it.

Right here, at this crossroads you're choosing the path you'll continue down for the rest of it.

Another sad story

diamondp

totally agree with kp. find someone better

LegacyUser

in that case, mighty mouse, i wont apologise for intimating you're being a little too aggressive here. if i seem "pathetic" it may be because I don't want to offend people I know I invited into this mess. Anyone who reads this and replies is giving of their time, and does not deserve cockiness,rudeness or aggression in response.
to be totally honest, I still don't know what to do. General consensus is definitely "move on", but in doing so, you're asking me to toss aside all the emotion i have mixed up in this. While Wibbs has advised this is as easy said as done, I'm not finding it so. I will, however, take this into account. I have about a week left to make a decision, and I'm trying to consider it from every side. I have days when I thnk I can definitely do it, break it off, never see him again, and be ok(well, regardless of what happens, I will be ok); and then I have days where I'm terrified at thirty-five I'll be chasing men, when what I want to be chasing my toddlers around. I don't want to wake up 80, totally alone, and have no one to blame but myself, because the one time I found someone I loved, we couldn't make it work because I couldn't let myself trust him again. He was willing to change and I wouldn't let him.
That said, I think there's also an element of unwitting devil's advocate at play here. If everyone told me to go back to him I'd be coming up with all the reasons not to. It's not intentional at all, it's just a mechanism to ensure I get the most complete information possible. Whatever happens, be assured I'm walking into it eyes wide open, and I will always take care of myself. Thanks again for all your time and efforts, your thoughts and opinions have been very much appreciated and valued.

Oryx

Well ytms, you do have a backbone.

Do what your heart is telling you then. But only do whatever your choice is, if you can be happy that your decision you make today is because you want to, not because its expected, or what everyone does, or its a rite of passage, or because it will make your fella happy. Do it because you can live with it, and it will make you happy.

You may end up still chasing men at 35. You may end up a happy spinster. You may end up blissfully happy with this man. But as you have said yourself, whatever you do, do it with your eyes fully open. Dont look back in years to come and regret the decision you make today. Be sure, if you go with him, its what YOU want.


Good luck and happy christmas

spinandscribble

op you speak of how we dont understand you have emotions to deal with. your ex is banking on that to keep you. i've seen this happen with friends.

same story with a mate, the fella was a good few years older, used to tell her how he could do better, insulted her, broke up with her again and again then when she started to question things then came the marriage proposal.

she was like you, sorry to distrub a mouse, going on about how much he must love her to say that tainting her glasses rosey...

theres a bit of drama in this aswell. do you like it? or does it keep you awake and make you cry? if its the excitment you have a weird liking for then noone can help you.

if this is generally making you ill i'd get rid.

your ex KNOWS UTTERLY KNOWS that he has problems. he's 26 chasing a teenager. he knows he cant find a weak enough woman his own age.he wants to tie someone down at least so he canm get sex.

being weak is nothing to be ashamed of but it does mean if you realise it now but if you dont try and change it you're asking for it and deserve no pity.

every girl has these type of guys in their past. jealous, manipulative, cruel ect and im sure the fella's on this board will agree the opposite sex can be as bad.

when you meet someone who actually cares about you and loves you as you are, not your size ect and trusts you you'll realise how young and silly you were and will blush. i know i have and im only 20 turning 21 soon.