talking down to people . why ?

hel_hev · 16-12-2007 06:12PM #1

dunno if this is the right forum , anyway ..

i m writing this after viewing a incident on a dublin bus.

a guy was sitting down reading the paper, the bus stopped , a foreign woman got on with a baby in a pram & stood up .. the guy got up to let her sit in his seat (she didnt ask him to) and when she sat down he says a thank you would have been nice ... she didnt speak english well and said wha ? back .. he start raising his voice , I SAID YOU SHOULD SAY THANKS , she just shugged .. she didnt know what he was on about i think ... then he starts ranting , what did you say , i didnt hear anything ? you should be thanking me ... all the time looking around the bus for people to go along with him (which nobody did) .. this guy wasnt like drunk/stoned or anything .. he was well dressed with a D4 accent ...
after a while a woman told him to leave the girl alone ... he said something about , people needing manners and sat down staring at this woman for like the whole journey ...

i wanna know why a well off looking guy wants to start a fight with a woman with a baby on a bus ?

i have been "talked down to" alot myself in jobs dealing with the public ... middle aged woman, (often again with d4 accent) coming up when you work in a shop , asking you for something not in stock , i tell them it ll be in tomorrow politly .. and get WHAT DID YOU SAY TO ME !!! I am the customer , you get it now .

i work now in a call centre , where i get people ringing in let say about their broken pc .. and then telling me "they're a doctor " ???? & im thinking what do i care ? its noting to do with the probelm at hand .. also i ve had "you know im from portmarnock " so what ????

i always got this is work , but was shocked to see someone acting like this on a bus ...

are there people reading this , who have every started fights with shop girls, take away food place employees , call centres etc ?

why do you do it ? do you feel you are better and these people can be talked to like that because they are "less" ?

.....

Mulan · 16-12-2007 06:45PM

Hi,
I'm going to sit on the fence with this one.

Firstly, a smile or a gesture in her own language would have been suffice.
Not acknowledging was a bit rude.
Secondly, the guy going ApeS**t because he didn't get a thank you, well thats just shows him up for what he really is. Did he want the freedom of the city or something.

Last but not least

I'd say that most people from D4 or Portmarnock would have a big problem being labelled as one of these people.

Regards

mikemac · 16-12-2007 07:05PM

Without a doubt, the people who look down on others the most are middle-class, middle-aged women.
It's rare you'll have this attitude from men though it happens sometimes.

I've found any extremly rich people I had to deal with lovely.

It's not people from a privledged background that you need to worry about, it's people who aspire to be!
You know, people buying cars they cannot afford simply to keep their status up.
Whereas a truely rich person could drive any old banger and wouldn't care about the opinion of others and they are used to money and don't suffer from insecurity.

This thread brought back memories.
Don't ever tell someone in customer service "Did you need a degree to get your job?". I've heard that a few times :mad:
And from working in hotels you'd ask someone their name and they reply with "I'm marketing director of <insert some high society fashion mag>"
Eh, I need your name not your job title

Having said all that, I look down on skangers and the girls wearing pyjamas always

Mulan · 16-12-2007 07:10PM

Whats a skanger!

Zulu · 17-12-2007 12:58PM

It was rude of her not to acknowledge him. However, the inital lamblasting was penality enough for her, he shouldn't have continued.

Personally, I find people ignorant in all walks of life. It too easy to claim the come from the "middle class" - most of our population is middle class I'd imagine. As for it being middle class women, again I don't think thats fair either. Although, it does tend to be a woman who's counting the coppers at the top of a busy shopping queue...

Zombrex · 17-12-2007 01:09PM

Anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you is just a selfish prick TBH, and its clear he was only doing it for a reaction. And to start shouting at the woman, that is just ridiculous.

I once saw a women in McDonalds start shouting at the Chinese girl because the woman was ordering a "burger" and the girl wanted to know if she wanted a meal. The woman (well to do) obviously wasn't used to ordering a a fast food joint and was clearly embarrassed by that fact, but this need people have to make someone else around them upset to deflect from their own insecurities is rather pathetic.

Some people just have issues and frustrations and pick random points and random people to let fly with the most pointless arguments.

Zulu · 17-12-2007 02:54PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you is just a selfish prick TBH,

I don't agree with that, because I don't believe it's a fair comment. Anyone is fully entitled to be annoyed if someone is rude to them. To say they are "selfish pricks" is uncalled for.

its clear he was only doing it for a reaction.

True.

And to start shouting at the woman, that is just ridiculous.

Ridiculous, rude and ignorant.

LadyJ · 17-12-2007 03:43PM

Wow OP, I would have been so pissed off I'd seen that happening! I get plenty of crap like that in my job too. I work as a telephonist for a courier company and I always get people spelling really easy words for me when they're calling stuff out. Annoys the hole off me!

People are so insane sometimes. I really think your story is appalling. If I'd seen that happen on a bus I'd like to think that I would have stepped in to calm things. What an asshole tbh.

Zombrex · 17-12-2007 03:50PM

Zulu wrote: »

I don't agree with that, because I don't believe it's a fair comment. Anyone is fully entitled to be annoyed if someone is rude to them.

Was she rude though? She was a mother with pram and a kid.

I'm not saying that a "Thank you" wouldn't have been nice. But I'm not exactly sure that it would be classified as rude, a mother with a kid has a lot more on her mind

If the mother had been like "Get the f**k out of that chair I need it" that would be rude

Zulu · 17-12-2007 04:27PM

I disagree. My take on it would be - he gave up his seat to her, she should say thanks (or at least acknowledge) him. Either way he's entitled to be annoyed that she would ignore him; ignoring people is rude in fairness.
My understanding of the etiquette is: if someone offers me something and I accept, I say thanks and acknowledge the persona and act. I know I would.

On that, I find the whole giving up seats thing interesting. Personally I always give up my seat to elderly, pregnant, or someone who's heavily burdened. I do this a charitable act. It costs me nothing and I can make someone else's life easier - so why wouldn't I?

However I do feel it reflects very poorly on those (and I've only come across a tiny handful) who do not acknowledge this act, or those who take it for granted.

I didn't have to give you my seat and perhaps I shouldn't have....

Zulu · 17-12-2007 04:33PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Was she rude though? She was a mother with pram and a kid.

Sorry, to answer your question: yes, she was rude. Because she has a child doesn't exempt her from manners - quite the opposite actually - she should have made a point to thank the man, and explained to the child why he did a good thing. (This would have 1: taught the child the correct manners 2: pointed out to anyone who didn't surrender their seat that they should have at least considered it & 3: prevented the out burst)

But I'm not exactly sure that it would be classified as rude

personally, if I gave you something when I didn't have to, to make your life easier, I'd be offended if you ignored me.

If the mother had been like "Get the f**k out of that chair I need it" that would be rude

Definitely but a little extreme!

DeVore · 17-12-2007 04:53PM

"I'm from portmarnock".... LOL...

DeV.
ps: You should have said "I'm sorry, I can't hear you, I'm wearing a towel"

the_syco · 17-12-2007 04:56PM

hel_hev wrote: »

i work now in a call centre , where i get people ringing in let say about their broken pc .. and then telling me "they're a doctor " ???? & im thinking what do i care ?

Yeah, I get this a bit. Have to stop myself from saying "ah, so that's why you can't use a computer?":rolleyes:

Zulu wrote: »

I don't agree with that, because I don't believe it's a fair comment. Anyone is fully entitled to be annoyed if someone is rude to them. To say they are "selfish pricks" is uncalled for.

Actually, it's not. You do a good deed because you can, not because you'll get thanked.

Also, some of the non-english speaking folk will give a "thank-you" nod, or a smile. Not all can speak english.

DeVore wrote: »

ps: You should have said "I'm sorry, I can't hear you, I'm wearing a towel"

Eh? I don't get it.

jackal · 17-12-2007 05:03PM

I probably appeared like that the other day in apache pizza. The guy at the counter had a really strong indian accent. He said something to me, I could'nt understand.. so I started saying "Yeah here to collect a medium tomohawk pizza and chicken dipperOH **** thats exactly what he just said to me" bollix, I must have looked a right tosser.

nacho libre · 17-12-2007 05:04PM

the_syco wrote: »

Yeah, I get this a bit. Have to stop myself from saying "ah, so that's why you can't use a computer?":rolleyes:

Actually, it's not. You do a good deed because you can, not because you'll get thanked.

.

so if someone got a present from you and didn't say thanks or show appreciation you'd be perfectly fine about it. even the most noble person serectly wants acknowledgement at some point. i agree it should be because you can do it, but alot of people do good deeds out of selfishness but isn't that better than not doing a good deed at all?

Zulu · 17-12-2007 05:10PM

I remember (many moons ago I worked helpdesk and the email server went down) getting "but I'm a manager and I have to send this out!" All I wanted to say was "well ok, I'll just swich everything back on so". I didn't.

the_syco wrote: »

You do a good deed because you can, not because you'll get thanked.

Agreed, but's ignorant to ignore someone - wouldn't you agree?

Also, some of the non-english speaking folk will give a "thank-you" nod, or a smile. Not all can speak english.

Which to me is totally acceptable. Personally when I go to a foreign country, I make a point of learning two phrases - "thank you" and "slante!" (but I don't expect everyone to do that)

Zombrex · 17-12-2007 05:41PM

Zulu wrote: »

Agreed, but's ignorant to ignore someone - wouldn't you agree?

You seem to be missing the part with the pram and kid.

Do you know how difficult it is to get a pram onto a bus. I certainly wouldn't expect a a mother struggling with that to have to say thank you to me if I did her a good deed. She has bigger things on her mind. I'm thankful if a mother manages to control her kids on a bus at all.

At the end of the day we don't know if this woman was being rude or not. My only point is that it is jumping the gun a bit to assume she was being rude just because she didn't acknowledge him in a way he would have liked.

I agree 100% that if she didn't say anything on purpose because she was being stuck up, or expected that someone would give up the seat, that is rude.

But on the other hand a woman struggling with a kid and a pram on a bus has a lot on her mind at that moment.

If I had done that and had not got an acknowledgment I certain wouldn't have assumed the woman was being rude

Seraphina · 17-12-2007 05:52PM

ive worked alot in retail, and you get that kind of rudeness and being spoken down to all the time. it's that, 'the customer is always right' mentality, and the fact that most people think that if you're working in a shop, you must be stupid! :rolleyes: i also think because i worked in a low end (read : cheap ass) fashion retailer, people were a lot more likely to be rude and throw strops, you wouldn't see people acting like that in BT's!!!

i got all kinds of ridiculous complaints, the worst are people trying to return things, banging on the desk and saying 'i know my rights' when actually, due to x, y, z reason, we were perfectly entitled to refuse a refund, usually because the item had obviously been worn a lot, was soiled, wasn't faulty, no receipt or receipt months out of date etc etc.

Zulu · 17-12-2007 05:57PM

Wicknight wrote: »

You seem to be missing the part with the pram and kid.

No I got that, I just don't believe that's a amnesty for lack of manners

I certainly wouldn't expect a a mother struggling with that to have to say thank you to me if I did her a good deed.

Interesting! I would, well, I'd expect at least a nod or a smile anyway.

At the end of the day we don't know if this woman was being rude or not.

True.

My only point is that it is jumping the gun a bit to assume she was being rude just because she didn't acknowledge him in a way he would have liked.

Fair enough, and my problem was with calling "Anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you a selfish prick", I feel that's unfair.

I agree 100% that if she didn't say anything on purpose because she was being stuck up, or expected that someone would give up the seat, that is rude.

In fairness, I think everyone does!

But on the other hand a woman struggling with a kid and a pram on a bus has a lot on her mind at that moment.

True, and he shouldn't have had a hissy fit.

FlutterinBantam · 17-12-2007 06:11PM

A lot of complex issues here in truth.

May I make a few general points.

1. People who work in low end jobs do get 'dumped on' by other people in equally low end jobs just because they think they can get away with it.

2. Socially inept people use rudeness as a cover for their social ineptitude.

3.Generally, the lower the socio economic status of the person the less likely they will much attention to manners.Therefore it follows that in so called lower class areas its 'every man for himself' attitude that tends to prevail and fcuk the neighbours,and in shopping areas no one will give an inch,therefore please and thanks are rare commodities

4. Women generally seen much less willing to acknowledge an act of kindness(giving way in traffic) for instance than men.

On the OP's topic, Most of us would feel miffed if we do something for someone and get no acknowledgment. Whether we would react like that is debateable,but tbh i have a certain amount of sympathy with the guy.

What will happen with him of course is that he will never give up his seat again,and the downward cycle starts.

Zombrex · 17-12-2007 07:03PM

Zulu wrote: »

No I got that, I just don't believe that's a amnesty for lack of manners

Is there any situation where you wouldn't expect someone to have to say thanking to you for doing something?

Zulu wrote: »

Interesting! I would, well, I'd expect at least a nod or a smile anyway.

Why? What harm is it to you if she doesn't?

Zulu wrote: »

Fair enough, and my problem was with calling "Anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you a selfish prick", I feel that's unfair.

Well I stand by it TBH.

Even if you think some one was not a great full as they should have been, to get annoyed by that fact is simply selfish.

It basically says that the important thing to the person is the acknowledgment of what they did, not that they actually did it.

Redjeep! · 17-12-2007 08:50PM

Similar thing happened to me recently (but I didn't get too bent out of shape over it).

I was waiting to get out of a local bank (through the interlocked double set of doors). I was first at the door and a lady with a pram stood behind me. I opened the first set of doors and stood back to let her through. She thanked me and another lady walked through, whilst on her phone. No acknowledgement.

I opened the second set of doors and again held the door open to let the lady with the pram through and the second woman walked infront of her and out the door first - again no form of acknowledgement.

The lady with the pram again said thankyou.

I didn't get too upset by the other womans attitude, but I do consider it was pretty ignorant. She could have at least responded or let the lady with the pram through first.

I don't think that it's wrong to at least expect some form of acknowledgement.

Mulan · 17-12-2007 09:07PM

I tend to agree with Zulu really.

It doesn't take much to say thank you.
I'm married and a father with 2 kids and if someone gave up a seat for us, be it in china or ballydehob. I'd be very greatful and would acknowledge it, with a thank you and a smile. And yes I might have a lot on my mind but so does everyone else.

I certainly wouldn't expect someone to get up. Thats completly up to them and I wouldn't get upset over it either.

Regards

Latchy · 17-12-2007 09:26PM

hel_hev wrote: »

dunno if this is the right forum , anyway ..

i m writing this after viewing a incident on a dublin bus.

a guy was sitting down reading the paper, the bus stopped , a foreign woman got on with a baby in a pram & stood up .. the guy got up to let her sit in his seat (she didnt ask him to) and when she sat down he says a thank you would have been nice ... she didnt speak english well and said wha ? back .. he start raising his voice , I SAID YOU SHOULD SAY THANKS , she just shugged .. she didnt know what he was on about i think ... then he starts ranting , what did you say , i didnt hear anything ? you should be thanking me ... all the time looking around the bus for people to go along with him (which nobody did) .. this guy wasnt like drunk/stoned or anything .. he was well dressed with a D4 accent ...
after a while a woman told him to leave the girl alone ... he said something about , people needing manners and sat down staring at this woman for like the whole journey ...

Would he have tried that on London tube or any other major public transport system except ireland ? you bet your bottom dollar he wouldent , statistics show that people have being stabbed to death for less .

i wanna know why a well off looking guy wants to start a fight with a woman with a baby on a bus ?

He has a superiority complex maybe ?

i have been "talked down to" alot myself in jobs dealing with the public ... middle aged woman, (often again with d4 accent) coming up when you work in a shop , asking you for something not in stock , i tell them it ll be in tomorrow politly .. and get WHAT DID YOU SAY TO ME !!! I am the customer , you get it now .

Perhaps she still thinks she lives in 60s/70s/80s ireland were that type of iggnorence was acceptable day to day behaviour ?.

i work now in a call centre , where i get people ringing in let say about their broken pc .. and then telling me "they're a doctor " ???? & im thinking what do i care ? its noting to do with the probelm at hand .. also i ve had "you know im from portmarnock " so what ????

Amazing how your postal cose is supposed to mean you get better service then joe soap from xxxxx xxxxxxx

i always got this is work , but was shocked to see someone acting like this on a bus ...

i have seen worse believe me by supposedly well educated people .

are there people reading this , who have every started fights with shop girls, take away food place employees , call centres etc ?

Maybe some had legit reasons to, but a lot dont.

why do you do it ? do you feel you are better and these people can be talked to like that because they are "less" ?

Sure you are getting various responces to this

Zulu · 18-12-2007 12:16PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Is there any situation where you wouldn't expect someone to have to say thanking to you for doing something?

Can't think of any to be honest. Seriously though, I would always say thanks, it takes nothing. Perhaps in my professional capacity, I accept pay as a thanks.

Do you find there are a number of occasions you wouldn't say, ta; thanks; cheers; nod & smile?

Why? What harm is it to you if she doesn't?

No harm to me. No harm to me if someone doesn't hold the door open for me; no harm if someone doesn't say thanks; no harm if someone doesn't have manners - just rude. Let's flip that around though. How would you feel if I said I didn't hold the door open for an old woman, or that I didn't give up my seat to the pregnant woman?

Well I stand by it TBH.

So can I also deduce form that I'm a selfish prick forgetting annoyed if someone else has no manners towards me? Or is it only limited to that particular case? ....because if so, then the logic suggests that the pregnant woman in the above example, and the old woman are also selfish pricks if they got annoyed.

Even if you think some one was not a great full as they should have been, to get annoyed by that fact is simply selfish.

You're probably right in the strictest sense of the word - it is selfish for me to expect to be acknowledged by another person, but I can live with that level of selfishness tbh.

It basically says that the important thing to the person is the acknowledgement of what they did, not that they actually did it.

Not true, the action is important, that's why it was done. At the point of the action being done there is no guarantee that there will be an acknowledgement. However the acknowledgement is customary, and thus somewhat expected, so if it's not received, the giver can be left wondering (for example) if they did something wrong, or if there was offence caused by the action etc..

Morlar · 18-12-2007 02:47PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

3.Generally, the lower the socio economic status of the person the less likely they will much attention to manners.Therefore it follows that in so called lower class areas its 'every man for himself' attitude that tends to prevail and fcuk the neighbours,

I have found the opposite to be true 99% of the time - not just in dublin but in other countries too.

Working class areas tend to have an 'us against them' ethos - rather than an 'every man for himself' type of attitude. You see this with people giving each other lifts from the busstop when its raining out and so on. The prevailing attitude in my experience is neighbours and locals will go completely out of their way to help somone out - I have had times when people have stopped driving by to get out and get a torch and jumper leads without even having to be asked or flagged down. People who would do massive favours for you and point blank refuse on principle to accept any kind of reward or renumeration.

I could give more examples but whats the point- I am sure other people would come up with examples to prove the opposite and give them comfort that their prejudice is correct - but in my experience you have it completely the wrong way around.

Latchy · 18-12-2007 04:45PM

Originally Posted by FlutterinBantam
3.Generally, the lower the socio economic status of the person the less likely they will much attention to manners.Therefore it follows that in so called lower class areas its 'every man for himself' attitude that tends to prevail and fcuk the neighbours,

You make it (good manners ) sound like a social science or somthing ,you cant put people into little boxs like that like in a lab.
I hate using terms like working class/middle class etc but as sombody once remarked ' their is nothing worse than a working class snob ' .If i win the lotto tomorow it doesn't make me any better or any worse than what i was before ,just richer and the good manners i had growing up will still be always with me .

aidan24326 · 18-12-2007 05:01PM

micmclo wrote: »

Without a doubt, the people who look down on others the most are middle-class, middle-aged women

This would be my experience also. Definitely the worst.

I've found any extremly rich people I had to deal with lovely.
It's not people from a privledged background that you need to worry about, it's people who aspire to be!
You know, people buying cars they cannot afford simply to keep their status up.
Whereas a truely rich person could drive any old banger and wouldn't care about the opinion of others and they are used to money and don't suffer from insecurity.

All very true. It's the wannabees who will look down on you, the people who like to think they're something. Especially if they're female.

FlutterinBantam · 19-12-2007 09:39AM

Morlar wrote: »

I have found the opposite to be true 99% of the time - not just in dublin but in other countries too.

Working class areas tend to have an 'us against them' ethos - rather than an 'every man for himself' type of attitude. You see this with people giving each other lifts from the busstop when its raining out and so on. The prevailing attitude in my experience is neighbours and locals will go completely out of their way to help somone out - I have had times when people have stopped driving by to get out and get a torch and jumper leads without even having to be asked or flagged down. People who would do massive favours for you and point blank refuse on principle to accept any kind of reward or renumeration.

I could give more examples but whats the point- I am sure other people would come up with examples to prove the opposite and give them comfort that their prejudice is correct - but in my experience you have it completely the wrong way around.

I probably didn't make myself too clear there.
Indeed the 'us against them' is the ethos on which many working class areas survive on.The 'we'll beat the system attitude' and the skill bartering system of 'you build my wall,and my son will do your flooring,and my uncle can fix the roof 'is alive and well.
However , once an'outsider' is involved or people move outside their 'own territory' the rules change,queues are ignored,whoever shouts the loudest gets served first,your parking space is the one inches from the door irrespective of how it's designated.
That is what I was referring to.

jackal · 19-12-2007 01:15PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I probably didn't make myself too clear there.
Indeed the 'us against them' is the ethos on which many working class areas survive on.The 'we'll beat the system attitude' and the skill bartering system of 'you build my wall,and my son will do your flooring,and my uncle can fix the roof 'is alive and well.
However , once an'outsider' is involved or people move outside their 'own territory' the rules change,queues are ignored,whoever shouts the loudest gets served first,your parking space is the one inches from the door irrespective of how it's designated.
That is what I was referring to.

Yeah, they dont tend to **** on their own doorsteps. Just everybody elses.

Morlar · 19-12-2007 02:47PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

once an'outsider' is involved or people move outside their 'own territory' the rules change,queues are ignored,

Cant say I have noticed many instances of queues being ignored in working class areas in my travels - you could even argue that in the more working class areas queues are more likely to be observed than in areas where people may be less inclined to speak up against queue jumpers. I think (generally) the more cramped the living conditions the more importance is based on simple social rules.

Now that I think of it the only people I can recall jumping queues (that I can thik of right now) were of the more well to do sort.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

whoever shouts the loudest gets served first,

I am not sure this generalism applies any more to a working class area than it does to a more affluent one.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

your parking space is the one inches from the door irrespective of how it's designated.
That is what I was referring to.

That sounds like an instance of a particular isolated parking dispute. I wouldnt take that as grounds for describing working class people as 'less likely to pay attention to manners due to their socio economic status'.

I think if you put more traditionally well off people into similairly cramped living conditions you might even find that they are less willing to accomodate neighbours when there is less breathing room and as in your example competition for parking spaces.

talking down to people . why ?

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