talking down to people . why ?

hel_hev · 16-12-2007 5:12pm #1

dunno if this is the right forum , anyway ..

i m writing this after viewing a incident on a dublin bus.

a guy was sitting down reading the paper, the bus stopped , a foreign woman got on with a baby in a pram & stood up .. the guy got up to let her sit in his seat (she didnt ask him to) and when she sat down he says a thank you would have been nice ... she didnt speak english well and said wha ? back .. he start raising his voice , I SAID YOU SHOULD SAY THANKS , she just shugged .. she didnt know what he was on about i think ... then he starts ranting , what did you say , i didnt hear anything ? you should be thanking me ... all the time looking around the bus for people to go along with him (which nobody did) .. this guy wasnt like drunk/stoned or anything .. he was well dressed with a D4 accent ...
after a while a woman told him to leave the girl alone ... he said something about , people needing manners and sat down staring at this woman for like the whole journey ...

i wanna know why a well off looking guy wants to start a fight with a woman with a baby on a bus ?

i have been "talked down to" alot myself in jobs dealing with the public ... middle aged woman, (often again with d4 accent) coming up when you work in a shop , asking you for something not in stock , i tell them it ll be in tomorrow politly .. and get WHAT DID YOU SAY TO ME !!! I am the customer , you get it now .

i work now in a call centre , where i get people ringing in let say about their broken pc .. and then telling me "they're a doctor " ???? & im thinking what do i care ? its noting to do with the probelm at hand .. also i ve had "you know im from portmarnock " so what ????

i always got this is work , but was shocked to see someone acting like this on a bus ...

are there people reading this , who have every started fights with shop girls, take away food place employees , call centres etc ?

why do you do it ? do you feel you are better and these people can be talked to like that because they are "less" ?

.....

Mulan · 16-12-2007 5:45pm

Hi,
I'm going to sit on the fence with this one.

Firstly, a smile or a gesture in her own language would have been suffice.
Not acknowledging was a bit rude.
Secondly, the guy going ApeS**t because he didn't get a thank you, well thats just shows him up for what he really is. Did he want the freedom of the city or something.

Last but not least

I'd say that most people from D4 or Portmarnock would have a big problem being labelled as one of these people.

Regards

mikemac · 16-12-2007 6:05pm

Without a doubt, the people who look down on others the most are middle-class, middle-aged women.
It's rare you'll have this attitude from men though it happens sometimes.

I've found any extremly rich people I had to deal with lovely.

It's not people from a privledged background that you need to worry about, it's people who aspire to be!
You know, people buying cars they cannot afford simply to keep their status up.
Whereas a truely rich person could drive any old banger and wouldn't care about the opinion of others and they are used to money and don't suffer from insecurity.

This thread brought back memories.
Don't ever tell someone in customer service "Did you need a degree to get your job?". I've heard that a few times :mad:
And from working in hotels you'd ask someone their name and they reply with "I'm marketing director of <insert some high society fashion mag>"
Eh, I need your name not your job title

Having said all that, I look down on skangers and the girls wearing pyjamas always

Mulan · 16-12-2007 6:10pm

Whats a skanger!

Zulu · 17-12-2007 11:58am

It was rude of her not to acknowledge him. However, the inital lamblasting was penality enough for her, he shouldn't have continued.

Personally, I find people ignorant in all walks of life. It too easy to claim the come from the "middle class" - most of our population is middle class I'd imagine. As for it being middle class women, again I don't think thats fair either. Although, it does tend to be a woman who's counting the coppers at the top of a busy shopping queue...

Zombrex · 17-12-2007 12:09pm

Anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you is just a selfish prick TBH, and its clear he was only doing it for a reaction. And to start shouting at the woman, that is just ridiculous.

I once saw a women in McDonalds start shouting at the Chinese girl because the woman was ordering a "burger" and the girl wanted to know if she wanted a meal. The woman (well to do) obviously wasn't used to ordering a a fast food joint and was clearly embarrassed by that fact, but this need people have to make someone else around them upset to deflect from their own insecurities is rather pathetic.

Some people just have issues and frustrations and pick random points and random people to let fly with the most pointless arguments.

Zulu · 17-12-2007 1:54pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you is just a selfish prick TBH,

I don't agree with that, because I don't believe it's a fair comment. Anyone is fully entitled to be annoyed if someone is rude to them. To say they are "selfish pricks" is uncalled for.

its clear he was only doing it for a reaction.

True.

And to start shouting at the woman, that is just ridiculous.

Ridiculous, rude and ignorant.

LadyJ · 17-12-2007 2:43pm

Wow OP, I would have been so pissed off I'd seen that happening! I get plenty of crap like that in my job too. I work as a telephonist for a courier company and I always get people spelling really easy words for me when they're calling stuff out. Annoys the hole off me!

People are so insane sometimes. I really think your story is appalling. If I'd seen that happen on a bus I'd like to think that I would have stepped in to calm things. What an asshole tbh.

Zombrex · 17-12-2007 2:50pm

Zulu wrote: »

I don't agree with that, because I don't believe it's a fair comment. Anyone is fully entitled to be annoyed if someone is rude to them.

Was she rude though? She was a mother with pram and a kid.

I'm not saying that a "Thank you" wouldn't have been nice. But I'm not exactly sure that it would be classified as rude, a mother with a kid has a lot more on her mind

If the mother had been like "Get the f**k out of that chair I need it" that would be rude

Zulu · 17-12-2007 3:27pm

I disagree. My take on it would be - he gave up his seat to her, she should say thanks (or at least acknowledge) him. Either way he's entitled to be annoyed that she would ignore him; ignoring people is rude in fairness.
My understanding of the etiquette is: if someone offers me something and I accept, I say thanks and acknowledge the persona and act. I know I would.

On that, I find the whole giving up seats thing interesting. Personally I always give up my seat to elderly, pregnant, or someone who's heavily burdened. I do this a charitable act. It costs me nothing and I can make someone else's life easier - so why wouldn't I?

However I do feel it reflects very poorly on those (and I've only come across a tiny handful) who do not acknowledge this act, or those who take it for granted.

I didn't have to give you my seat and perhaps I shouldn't have....

Zulu · 17-12-2007 3:33pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Was she rude though? She was a mother with pram and a kid.

Sorry, to answer your question: yes, she was rude. Because she has a child doesn't exempt her from manners - quite the opposite actually - she should have made a point to thank the man, and explained to the child why he did a good thing. (This would have 1: taught the child the correct manners 2: pointed out to anyone who didn't surrender their seat that they should have at least considered it & 3: prevented the out burst)

But I'm not exactly sure that it would be classified as rude

personally, if I gave you something when I didn't have to, to make your life easier, I'd be offended if you ignored me.

If the mother had been like "Get the f**k out of that chair I need it" that would be rude

Definitely but a little extreme!

DeVore · 17-12-2007 3:53pm

"I'm from portmarnock".... LOL...

DeV.
ps: You should have said "I'm sorry, I can't hear you, I'm wearing a towel"

the_syco · 17-12-2007 3:56pm

hel_hev wrote: »

i work now in a call centre , where i get people ringing in let say about their broken pc .. and then telling me "they're a doctor " ???? & im thinking what do i care ?

Yeah, I get this a bit. Have to stop myself from saying "ah, so that's why you can't use a computer?":rolleyes:

Zulu wrote: »

I don't agree with that, because I don't believe it's a fair comment. Anyone is fully entitled to be annoyed if someone is rude to them. To say they are "selfish pricks" is uncalled for.

Actually, it's not. You do a good deed because you can, not because you'll get thanked.

Also, some of the non-english speaking folk will give a "thank-you" nod, or a smile. Not all can speak english.

DeVore wrote: »

ps: You should have said "I'm sorry, I can't hear you, I'm wearing a towel"

Eh? I don't get it.

jackal · 17-12-2007 4:03pm

I probably appeared like that the other day in apache pizza. The guy at the counter had a really strong indian accent. He said something to me, I could'nt understand.. so I started saying "Yeah here to collect a medium tomohawk pizza and chicken dipperOH **** thats exactly what he just said to me" bollix, I must have looked a right tosser.

nacho libre · 17-12-2007 4:04pm

the_syco wrote: »

Yeah, I get this a bit. Have to stop myself from saying "ah, so that's why you can't use a computer?":rolleyes:

Actually, it's not. You do a good deed because you can, not because you'll get thanked.

.

so if someone got a present from you and didn't say thanks or show appreciation you'd be perfectly fine about it. even the most noble person serectly wants acknowledgement at some point. i agree it should be because you can do it, but alot of people do good deeds out of selfishness but isn't that better than not doing a good deed at all?

Zulu · 17-12-2007 4:10pm

I remember (many moons ago I worked helpdesk and the email server went down) getting "but I'm a manager and I have to send this out!" All I wanted to say was "well ok, I'll just swich everything back on so". I didn't.

the_syco wrote: »

You do a good deed because you can, not because you'll get thanked.

Agreed, but's ignorant to ignore someone - wouldn't you agree?

Also, some of the non-english speaking folk will give a "thank-you" nod, or a smile. Not all can speak english.

Which to me is totally acceptable. Personally when I go to a foreign country, I make a point of learning two phrases - "thank you" and "slante!" (but I don't expect everyone to do that)

Zombrex · 17-12-2007 4:41pm

Zulu wrote: »

Agreed, but's ignorant to ignore someone - wouldn't you agree?

You seem to be missing the part with the pram and kid.

Do you know how difficult it is to get a pram onto a bus. I certainly wouldn't expect a a mother struggling with that to have to say thank you to me if I did her a good deed. She has bigger things on her mind. I'm thankful if a mother manages to control her kids on a bus at all.

At the end of the day we don't know if this woman was being rude or not. My only point is that it is jumping the gun a bit to assume she was being rude just because she didn't acknowledge him in a way he would have liked.

I agree 100% that if she didn't say anything on purpose because she was being stuck up, or expected that someone would give up the seat, that is rude.

But on the other hand a woman struggling with a kid and a pram on a bus has a lot on her mind at that moment.

If I had done that and had not got an acknowledgment I certain wouldn't have assumed the woman was being rude

Seraphina · 17-12-2007 4:52pm

ive worked alot in retail, and you get that kind of rudeness and being spoken down to all the time. it's that, 'the customer is always right' mentality, and the fact that most people think that if you're working in a shop, you must be stupid! :rolleyes: i also think because i worked in a low end (read : cheap ass) fashion retailer, people were a lot more likely to be rude and throw strops, you wouldn't see people acting like that in BT's!!!

i got all kinds of ridiculous complaints, the worst are people trying to return things, banging on the desk and saying 'i know my rights' when actually, due to x, y, z reason, we were perfectly entitled to refuse a refund, usually because the item had obviously been worn a lot, was soiled, wasn't faulty, no receipt or receipt months out of date etc etc.

Zulu · 17-12-2007 4:57pm

Wicknight wrote: »

You seem to be missing the part with the pram and kid.

No I got that, I just don't believe that's a amnesty for lack of manners

I certainly wouldn't expect a a mother struggling with that to have to say thank you to me if I did her a good deed.

Interesting! I would, well, I'd expect at least a nod or a smile anyway.

At the end of the day we don't know if this woman was being rude or not.

True.

My only point is that it is jumping the gun a bit to assume she was being rude just because she didn't acknowledge him in a way he would have liked.

Fair enough, and my problem was with calling "Anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you a selfish prick", I feel that's unfair.

I agree 100% that if she didn't say anything on purpose because she was being stuck up, or expected that someone would give up the seat, that is rude.

In fairness, I think everyone does!

But on the other hand a woman struggling with a kid and a pram on a bus has a lot on her mind at that moment.

True, and he shouldn't have had a hissy fit.

FlutterinBantam · 17-12-2007 5:11pm

A lot of complex issues here in truth.

May I make a few general points.

1. People who work in low end jobs do get 'dumped on' by other people in equally low end jobs just because they think they can get away with it.

2. Socially inept people use rudeness as a cover for their social ineptitude.

3.Generally, the lower the socio economic status of the person the less likely they will much attention to manners.Therefore it follows that in so called lower class areas its 'every man for himself' attitude that tends to prevail and fcuk the neighbours,and in shopping areas no one will give an inch,therefore please and thanks are rare commodities

4. Women generally seen much less willing to acknowledge an act of kindness(giving way in traffic) for instance than men.

On the OP's topic, Most of us would feel miffed if we do something for someone and get no acknowledgment. Whether we would react like that is debateable,but tbh i have a certain amount of sympathy with the guy.

What will happen with him of course is that he will never give up his seat again,and the downward cycle starts.

Zombrex · 17-12-2007 6:03pm

Zulu wrote: »

No I got that, I just don't believe that's a amnesty for lack of manners

Is there any situation where you wouldn't expect someone to have to say thanking to you for doing something?

Zulu wrote: »

Interesting! I would, well, I'd expect at least a nod or a smile anyway.

Why? What harm is it to you if she doesn't?

Zulu wrote: »

Fair enough, and my problem was with calling "Anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you a selfish prick", I feel that's unfair.

Well I stand by it TBH.

Even if you think some one was not a great full as they should have been, to get annoyed by that fact is simply selfish.

It basically says that the important thing to the person is the acknowledgment of what they did, not that they actually did it.

Redjeep! · 17-12-2007 7:50pm

Similar thing happened to me recently (but I didn't get too bent out of shape over it).

I was waiting to get out of a local bank (through the interlocked double set of doors). I was first at the door and a lady with a pram stood behind me. I opened the first set of doors and stood back to let her through. She thanked me and another lady walked through, whilst on her phone. No acknowledgement.

I opened the second set of doors and again held the door open to let the lady with the pram through and the second woman walked infront of her and out the door first - again no form of acknowledgement.

The lady with the pram again said thankyou.

I didn't get too upset by the other womans attitude, but I do consider it was pretty ignorant. She could have at least responded or let the lady with the pram through first.

I don't think that it's wrong to at least expect some form of acknowledgement.

Mulan · 17-12-2007 8:07pm

I tend to agree with Zulu really.

It doesn't take much to say thank you.
I'm married and a father with 2 kids and if someone gave up a seat for us, be it in china or ballydehob. I'd be very greatful and would acknowledge it, with a thank you and a smile. And yes I might have a lot on my mind but so does everyone else.

I certainly wouldn't expect someone to get up. Thats completly up to them and I wouldn't get upset over it either.

Regards

Latchy · 17-12-2007 8:26pm

hel_hev wrote: »

dunno if this is the right forum , anyway ..

i m writing this after viewing a incident on a dublin bus.

a guy was sitting down reading the paper, the bus stopped , a foreign woman got on with a baby in a pram & stood up .. the guy got up to let her sit in his seat (she didnt ask him to) and when she sat down he says a thank you would have been nice ... she didnt speak english well and said wha ? back .. he start raising his voice , I SAID YOU SHOULD SAY THANKS , she just shugged .. she didnt know what he was on about i think ... then he starts ranting , what did you say , i didnt hear anything ? you should be thanking me ... all the time looking around the bus for people to go along with him (which nobody did) .. this guy wasnt like drunk/stoned or anything .. he was well dressed with a D4 accent ...
after a while a woman told him to leave the girl alone ... he said something about , people needing manners and sat down staring at this woman for like the whole journey ...

Would he have tried that on London tube or any other major public transport system except ireland ? you bet your bottom dollar he wouldent , statistics show that people have being stabbed to death for less .

i wanna know why a well off looking guy wants to start a fight with a woman with a baby on a bus ?

He has a superiority complex maybe ?

i have been "talked down to" alot myself in jobs dealing with the public ... middle aged woman, (often again with d4 accent) coming up when you work in a shop , asking you for something not in stock , i tell them it ll be in tomorrow politly .. and get WHAT DID YOU SAY TO ME !!! I am the customer , you get it now .

Perhaps she still thinks she lives in 60s/70s/80s ireland were that type of iggnorence was acceptable day to day behaviour ?.

i work now in a call centre , where i get people ringing in let say about their broken pc .. and then telling me "they're a doctor " ???? & im thinking what do i care ? its noting to do with the probelm at hand .. also i ve had "you know im from portmarnock " so what ????

Amazing how your postal cose is supposed to mean you get better service then joe soap from xxxxx xxxxxxx

i always got this is work , but was shocked to see someone acting like this on a bus ...

i have seen worse believe me by supposedly well educated people .

are there people reading this , who have every started fights with shop girls, take away food place employees , call centres etc ?

Maybe some had legit reasons to, but a lot dont.

why do you do it ? do you feel you are better and these people can be talked to like that because they are "less" ?

Sure you are getting various responces to this

Zulu · 18-12-2007 11:16am

Wicknight wrote: »

Is there any situation where you wouldn't expect someone to have to say thanking to you for doing something?

Can't think of any to be honest. Seriously though, I would always say thanks, it takes nothing. Perhaps in my professional capacity, I accept pay as a thanks.

Do you find there are a number of occasions you wouldn't say, ta; thanks; cheers; nod & smile?

Why? What harm is it to you if she doesn't?

No harm to me. No harm to me if someone doesn't hold the door open for me; no harm if someone doesn't say thanks; no harm if someone doesn't have manners - just rude. Let's flip that around though. How would you feel if I said I didn't hold the door open for an old woman, or that I didn't give up my seat to the pregnant woman?

Well I stand by it TBH.

So can I also deduce form that I'm a selfish prick forgetting annoyed if someone else has no manners towards me? Or is it only limited to that particular case? ....because if so, then the logic suggests that the pregnant woman in the above example, and the old woman are also selfish pricks if they got annoyed.

Even if you think some one was not a great full as they should have been, to get annoyed by that fact is simply selfish.

You're probably right in the strictest sense of the word - it is selfish for me to expect to be acknowledged by another person, but I can live with that level of selfishness tbh.

It basically says that the important thing to the person is the acknowledgement of what they did, not that they actually did it.

Not true, the action is important, that's why it was done. At the point of the action being done there is no guarantee that there will be an acknowledgement. However the acknowledgement is customary, and thus somewhat expected, so if it's not received, the giver can be left wondering (for example) if they did something wrong, or if there was offence caused by the action etc..

Morlar · 18-12-2007 1:47pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

3.Generally, the lower the socio economic status of the person the less likely they will much attention to manners.Therefore it follows that in so called lower class areas its 'every man for himself' attitude that tends to prevail and fcuk the neighbours,

I have found the opposite to be true 99% of the time - not just in dublin but in other countries too.

Working class areas tend to have an 'us against them' ethos - rather than an 'every man for himself' type of attitude. You see this with people giving each other lifts from the busstop when its raining out and so on. The prevailing attitude in my experience is neighbours and locals will go completely out of their way to help somone out - I have had times when people have stopped driving by to get out and get a torch and jumper leads without even having to be asked or flagged down. People who would do massive favours for you and point blank refuse on principle to accept any kind of reward or renumeration.

I could give more examples but whats the point- I am sure other people would come up with examples to prove the opposite and give them comfort that their prejudice is correct - but in my experience you have it completely the wrong way around.

Latchy · 18-12-2007 3:45pm

Originally Posted by FlutterinBantam
3.Generally, the lower the socio economic status of the person the less likely they will much attention to manners.Therefore it follows that in so called lower class areas its 'every man for himself' attitude that tends to prevail and fcuk the neighbours,

You make it (good manners ) sound like a social science or somthing ,you cant put people into little boxs like that like in a lab.
I hate using terms like working class/middle class etc but as sombody once remarked ' their is nothing worse than a working class snob ' .If i win the lotto tomorow it doesn't make me any better or any worse than what i was before ,just richer and the good manners i had growing up will still be always with me .

aidan24326 · 18-12-2007 4:01pm

micmclo wrote: »

Without a doubt, the people who look down on others the most are middle-class, middle-aged women

This would be my experience also. Definitely the worst.

I've found any extremly rich people I had to deal with lovely.
It's not people from a privledged background that you need to worry about, it's people who aspire to be!
You know, people buying cars they cannot afford simply to keep their status up.
Whereas a truely rich person could drive any old banger and wouldn't care about the opinion of others and they are used to money and don't suffer from insecurity.

All very true. It's the wannabees who will look down on you, the people who like to think they're something. Especially if they're female.

FlutterinBantam · 19-12-2007 8:39am

Morlar wrote: »

I have found the opposite to be true 99% of the time - not just in dublin but in other countries too.

Working class areas tend to have an 'us against them' ethos - rather than an 'every man for himself' type of attitude. You see this with people giving each other lifts from the busstop when its raining out and so on. The prevailing attitude in my experience is neighbours and locals will go completely out of their way to help somone out - I have had times when people have stopped driving by to get out and get a torch and jumper leads without even having to be asked or flagged down. People who would do massive favours for you and point blank refuse on principle to accept any kind of reward or renumeration.

I could give more examples but whats the point- I am sure other people would come up with examples to prove the opposite and give them comfort that their prejudice is correct - but in my experience you have it completely the wrong way around.

I probably didn't make myself too clear there.
Indeed the 'us against them' is the ethos on which many working class areas survive on.The 'we'll beat the system attitude' and the skill bartering system of 'you build my wall,and my son will do your flooring,and my uncle can fix the roof 'is alive and well.
However , once an'outsider' is involved or people move outside their 'own territory' the rules change,queues are ignored,whoever shouts the loudest gets served first,your parking space is the one inches from the door irrespective of how it's designated.
That is what I was referring to.

jackal · 19-12-2007 12:15pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I probably didn't make myself too clear there.
Indeed the 'us against them' is the ethos on which many working class areas survive on.The 'we'll beat the system attitude' and the skill bartering system of 'you build my wall,and my son will do your flooring,and my uncle can fix the roof 'is alive and well.
However , once an'outsider' is involved or people move outside their 'own territory' the rules change,queues are ignored,whoever shouts the loudest gets served first,your parking space is the one inches from the door irrespective of how it's designated.
That is what I was referring to.

Yeah, they dont tend to **** on their own doorsteps. Just everybody elses.

Morlar · 19-12-2007 1:47pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

once an'outsider' is involved or people move outside their 'own territory' the rules change,queues are ignored,

Cant say I have noticed many instances of queues being ignored in working class areas in my travels - you could even argue that in the more working class areas queues are more likely to be observed than in areas where people may be less inclined to speak up against queue jumpers. I think (generally) the more cramped the living conditions the more importance is based on simple social rules.

Now that I think of it the only people I can recall jumping queues (that I can thik of right now) were of the more well to do sort.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

whoever shouts the loudest gets served first,

I am not sure this generalism applies any more to a working class area than it does to a more affluent one.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

your parking space is the one inches from the door irrespective of how it's designated.
That is what I was referring to.

That sounds like an instance of a particular isolated parking dispute. I wouldnt take that as grounds for describing working class people as 'less likely to pay attention to manners due to their socio economic status'.

I think if you put more traditionally well off people into similairly cramped living conditions you might even find that they are less willing to accomodate neighbours when there is less breathing room and as in your example competition for parking spaces.

FlutterinBantam · 19-12-2007 5:24pm

Some interesting points there indeed.

We could begin by asking ourselves why areas like say, Neilstown, around Finches Pub are litter ridden,graffiti scarred wastelands,whereas the area around 'The Gables' at the end of Westminster Rd in Foxrock is kept in pristine condition??
If your theory is correct it should be the opposite way around??

If somebody was arrested by the Gardaí on Trees Rd Mt Merrion,I doubt if ten or twelve would emerge from the houses nearby and break the garda's jaw as happened in Cabra recently.

What you forget,I would suggest,is that once you are 'one of our own' in a working class area,no matter what you do,you will be defended against 'them'.

Now thats a big generalisation but I would be fairly happy that that attitude is the base cause of a lot of the anti social problems which blight the sink estates in our city.

Morlar · 19-12-2007 7:06pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Some interesting points there indeed.

We could begin by asking ourselves why areas like say, Neilstown, around Finches Pub are litter ridden,graffiti scarred wastelands,whereas the area around 'The Gables' at the end of Westminster Rd in Foxrock is kept in pristine condition??
If your theory is correct it should be the opposite way around??

Maybe the council could clear this up. My 'theory' as you put is not built on foxrock having a litter problem.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

If somebody was arrested by the Gardaí on Trees Rd Mt Merrion,I doubt if ten or twelve would emerge from the houses nearby and break the garda's jaw as happened in Cabra recently.

This is not an example of . . .
the lower the socio economic status of the person the less likely they will (pay) much attention to manners
It's an example of criminality & there is a difference.

To put it in simpler terms - If someone from a well to do background is found to be drink driving should we also draw a connection to their socio economic background ? I would doubt the accuracy of making connections there. You seem to be drawing large sweeping generalisations based on the shallowest pieces of tabloid information.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

What you forget,I would suggest,is that once you are 'one of our own' in a working class area,no matter what you do,you will be defended against 'them'.

Not sure if this is based in reality . .. does this come from any personal experience or insight or on a more general observation through the prism of media coverage ? Possibly this goes back to your 'incident in cabra' point above.

once you are 'one of our own' in a working class area,no matter what you do,you will be defended against 'them'.

This isnt really based on anything that I can see - also a bit dismissive of an entire socio economic group.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Now thats a big generalisation but I would be fairly happy that that attitude is the base cause of a lot of the anti social problems which blight the sink estates in our city.

I think your wrong here, my money (pardon the pun) for ...

"the base cause of a lot of the anti social problems which blight the sink estates in our city."

would be on poverty, social deprivation, lack of education, lack of services, planning, amenities and a whole long list of other factors made worse by a lack of imagination and will on the part of the guards and the council and others in tackling some of these issues. Apathy sets in and the situation stagnates. This does not (imo) stem from

once you are 'one of our own' in a working class area,no matter what you do,you will be defended against 'them'.

Which is what you have just said. I am not saying that working class areas with anti social problems are blame free communities - they are not. Nor are all working class areas affected by anti social problems or crime.

hel_hev · 19-12-2007 9:22pm

just reading all the comments after my post,

just some things i didnt mention was the woman had a lot of bags and things with her ... the bus was a sat evening home from the city ctr .. lots of shopping bags ...

the man that moved was sitting at the top of the bus,near the driver, where the elderly people seats are ... where there are spaces for people with prams ..

there was loads of other seats free !! when he got up for her, he wasnt left standing , he just moved 2 steps to another free seats in the rows of seats on the bus ..

i think myself , although i m not 100% sure , that this man wouldnt have started off all that with the woman , if she had of been irish ... i get the feeling when he knew she couldnt speak english that he really started raising his voice and looking around the bus for attention ...

Brian Capture · 20-12-2007 2:15pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Some interesting points there indeed.

We could begin by asking ourselves why areas like say, Neilstown, around Finches Pub are litter ridden,graffiti scarred wastelands,whereas the area around 'The Gables' at the end of Westminster Rd in Foxrock is kept in pristine condition??
If your theory is correct it should be the opposite way around??

If somebody was arrested by the Gardaí on Trees Rd Mt Merrion,I doubt if ten or twelve would emerge from the houses nearby and break the garda's jaw as happened in Cabra recently.

What you forget,I would suggest,is that once you are 'one of our own' in a working class area,no matter what you do,you will be defended against 'them'.

Now thats a big generalisation but I would be fairly happy that that attitude is the base cause of a lot of the anti social problems which blight the sink estates in our city.

Remember when Dublin Bus temporarily suspended services to certain parts of Tallaght in the evenings? Drivers p*ssed on, assaulted etc.

Why didn't the same happen on the buses to places like Dalkey, Donnybrook, Stillorgan etc?

Zulu · 20-12-2007 3:17pm

...kinda dragging this OT, no?

mox54 · 20-12-2007 3:23pm

The idiot on the bus has obviously issues he needs to sort out, ranting and raving and looking for approval from strangers, he wasn't making a kind gesture to our foreign lady and child, he was trying to get noticed and make himself seem important!!...in fact he has a big mouth, little brain and the integrity of a rat!,

suited and stupid, how common is that these days!!

Zombrex · 20-12-2007 3:37pm

Zulu wrote: »

Do you find there are a number of occasions you wouldn't say, ta; thanks; cheers; nod & smile?

Certainly. The last time was when I was in Brussels on the Metro system. A woman collapsed beside me, and I had to catch her. Trying to carry her and my bag I dragged her off the train. As the trains doors where closing I shouted "Hold the door" and so man put his hand out and stopped the door closing. Struggling with my bag on my back and the woman in my arms I dragged the women off the train. I didn't say thank you to the man who stopped the door. I would have if I had gotten back on the train, but the train had pulled off. I don't know if he was annoyed by that.

Zulu wrote: »

Let's flip that around though. How would you feel if I said I didn't hold the door open for an old woman, or that I didn't give up my seat to the pregnant woman?

I would probably want to know why you didn't give up your seat or hold the door.

Zulu wrote: »

So can I also deduce form that I'm a selfish prick forgetting annoyed if someone else has no manners towards me?

Certainly

Zulu wrote: »

Or is it only limited to that particular case? ....because if so, then the logic suggests that the pregnant woman in the above example, and the old woman are also selfish pricks if they got annoyed.

You are slightly missing the point Zulu.

A person gives up their seat to a pregnant woman because it is very difficult for a pregnant woman to stand on public transport. Its not simply an act of old fashioned chivalry. It is not simply a question of manners

As I asked, what negative effect does someone not saying thank you to you have? Because you seem to be saying that someone not saying thank you to you is the same as a pregnant woman having to stand on a moving bus.

To me that is nonsense.

Zulu wrote: »

You're probably right in the strictest sense of the word - it is selfish for me to expect to be acknowledged by another person, but I can live with that level of selfishness tbh.

Fair enough. I think it is a bit petty to be honest, and kinda detracts from the motivation of why you help people in the first place. Do you help people because they need help, or because you want them to acknowledge that you helped them?

Zulu wrote: »

Not true, the action is important, that's why it was done. At the point of the action being done there is no guarantee that there will be an acknowledgement.

Yes, but that is the point.

If a person gets annoyed because they don't get this acknowledgment that means that they were expecting this when they did the action, and now they are annoyed that they have not got this acknowledgment. This give a strong indication of the motivation behind the action.

The acknowledgment should be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

Zulu · 20-12-2007 3:58pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Certainly. The last time was when I was in Brussels on the Metro system. A woman collapsed beside me,

Thats a fair enough example, and I doubt he was annoyed. I don't think I would be in that situation, but I wouldn't consider that a regular occurance. I'll call Extraordinary circumstances on that one.

I would probably want to know why you didn't give up your seat or hold the door.

You are tactfully missing my point.

You are slightly missing the point Zulu.

No I don't think I am.

A person gives up their seat to a ... it is not simply a question of manners

To me it's a simple case of manners. (Perhaps we have a different understanding of what we mean when we say "manners" and hence this moving in circles)

As I asked, what negative effect does someone not saying thank you to you have? Because you seem to be saying that someone not saying thank you to you is the same as a pregnant woman having to stand on a moving bus.

What I am saying is: it is bad manners not to say thank you; it is bad manners not to offer your seat to an elderly person or pregnant person.
And I am also saying that it is ok to be annoyed if someone doesn't treat you with good manners; that if someone is rude or unmannerly to you, you are entitled to be annoyed, and that you are not a "selfish prick" fro being annoyed.

Do you help people because they need help, or because you want them to acknowledge that you helped them?

because they need help. The fact that I might get annoyed because they are rude is another issue.

If a person gets annoyed because they don't get this acknowledgment that means that they were expecting this when they did the action,

I don't agree. ...and you'd be hard pushed to prove it.

The acknowledgment should be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

I can agree with this, but i'll reiterate: If a person is rude to you, you are entitled to be annoyed. You are not a selfish prick because you got annoyed.

JohnnyBravo · 20-12-2007 4:02pm

He was looking for kuddos for giving up his seat
1 word

PLANK

Morlar · 20-12-2007 4:23pm

Going by what has been posted I would say the original guy was entitled to a thank you or some kind of acknowledgment even if it was just a nod or a smile.

Just because you would expect the people you do a favour for to have some common manners doesnt mean that you did them the favour purely for their gratitude.

Its possible to do someone a favour because you think they could do with it - whether its a woman carrying shopping or pregnant or disabled or whatever. Them not having the reciprocal manners to acknowledge your kindness doesnt take away from you having done them a favour (or make you some kind of underhand person motivated by some kind of glory hunting gratitude seeking).

There has been a lot of criticism of the guy in this story - and rightly so - going by the account here he flipped the lid and that was uncalled for in that situation.

I would say that at the same time the woman should have made an effort to acknowledge his doing her a favour to begin with - putting it down to poor english doesnt cut it imo. Of course this whole thing is relayed 2nd hand so its possible that on the day she did make some kind of acknowledgement and that it just hadnt been noticed.

dr_manhattan · 21-12-2007 1:33am

i've seen this type of stuff before, and it's always well heeled people, it's always about 'manners' and it's always a non-irish person on the receiving end. Come to think of it i've seen it in other countries, too. It's one of those ways of starting trouble, like saying "what did you say...?"

But always with the "i gave you my seat, say thank you" routine.

I think of it as a closet crusading racist routine. I've seen it maybe five or six times, and each time i've wondered if it was rehearsed, or thought about beforehand... "you should say thank you" is, after all, the mantra of the bigot. And it's always a loud, angry instruction in manners, like you'd give a child who has just been pushing their luck with you.

But that's just my two cents.

If you assume it's all just something that happened - that he gave up his seat and then roared at the person he gave it to - then he's just a wierdo.

You give up your seat, and then get upset when you're not thanked?

Did this bus pass john of gods perchance?

;-)

Zulu · 21-12-2007 9:24am

I guess it's a sign of the times when people consider it ok to be rude to each other.

Zombrex · 21-12-2007 10:30am

Zulu wrote: »

Thats a fair enough example, and I doubt he was annoyed. I don't think I would be in that situation, but I wouldn't consider that a regular occurance. I'll call Extraordinary circumstances on that one.

Well I think every occurance is an individual circumstances around it.

The point was that it is not something that someone must automatically do lest they be considered rude. The circumstance of the situation come into play. Therefore it think it is unfair to say that this woman must have been being rude not to acknowledge the man, particularly when it has been established that she had a kid, a buggy and shopping with her.

Zulu wrote: »

You are tactfully missing my point.

No I'm not, I'm refusing to get into the game of sweeping statements because that is not how I view issues like this.

You want me to say that it is either never rude to not hold a door open for an old lady, or you want me to say that it is always rude to not hold a door open for an old lady.

What I'm actually saying is that whether or not it is rude depends on the circumstances of the specific incident.

Zulu wrote: »

To me it's a simple case of manners. (Perhaps we have a different understanding of what we mean when we say "manners" and hence this moving in circles)

Its not a simple case of manners, the person needs the seat because she is pregnant. There is a definite physical reason why a pregnant woman needs to sit down, its not just because its the done thing, like a man letting a perfectly healthy and able woman sit down just because she is a woman (which I think is nonsense).

Zulu wrote: »

it is bad manners not to say thank you

So you are saying that when I didn't say "thank you" to the man on the Brussels METRO I was being rude to him?

Zulu wrote: »

because they need help. The fact that I might get annoyed because they are rude is another issue.

Its not another issue at all. They need help, you give them help. Why are you annoyed? You are annoyed because you only gave them help because you expected some acknowledgment back for doing so.

If you gave them help without expecting any acknowledgment and you didn't get any acknowledgment nothing out of order would have happened, nothing that you didn't expect, so you wouldn't be annoyed.

Zulu wrote: »

I don't agree. ...and you'd be hard pushed to prove it.

Well I prove it by the fact that they get annoyed.

Zulu · 21-12-2007 11:09am

Wicknight wrote: »

Well I think every occurance is an individual circumstances around it.

That is true to an extent, but we can deal in generalities. I'm dealing in general terms, you are not. That is the crux of our debate. Although, you were happy enough to use general terms to suggest that anyone who was offended was an "ignorant prick".

The point was that it is not something that someone must automatically do lest they be considered rude.

I disagree. As a general rule of etiquette, one should always say thanks, or at least acknowledge the other person. I was also say that it is rude to ignore another person.

The circumstance of the situation come into play.

Well there are exceptions, but I don't agree that this was one (the op) other than that the man in question was a rude and ignorant person - but thats uncontested.

Therefore it think it is unfair to say that this woman must have been being rude not to acknowledge the man, particularly when it has been established that she had a kid, a buggy and shopping with her.

Well I maintain that she was rude not to acknowledge him, the shopping/kid aren't an amnesty.

No I'm not, I'm refusing to get into the game of sweeping statements because that is not how I view issues like this.

Excuse me??? Ah now Wicknight, This whole debate is based on your sweeping statement, that "anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you is just a selfish prick TBH". You'd be hard pushed to get anymore sweeping than that!!!

You want me to say that it is either never rude to not hold a door open for an old lady, or you want me to say that it is always rude to not hold a door open for an old lady.

No I don't. I am trying to explain to you that it was unfair to make the "sweeping" comment that "anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you is just a selfish prick TBH". To do that, I was trying to display to you that if we are rude to people they have a right to be upset. I gave you general examples to help you understand my point.

Its not a simple case of manners,

To acknowledge someone is.

the person needs the seat because she is pregnant.

and we give it because we have respect and manners for her.

So you are saying that when I didn't say "thank you" to the man on the Brussels METRO I was being rude to him?

Possibly, I wasn't there. But lets not discuss this extraordinary example. As I said, I'm talking in general.

Why are you annoyed?

I would be annoyed that i was ignored, or that someone took me for granted.

You are annoyed because you only gave them help because you expected some acknowledgment back for doing so.

How do you know why I am annoyed? You don't - you are speculating and you are wrong.

If you gave them help without expecting any acknowledgment and you didn't get any acknowledgment nothing out of order would have happened, nothing that you didn't expect, so you wouldn't be annoyed.

Not true, I didn't do the act for the acknowledgement so thats all cool, however, in this hypothetical situation, I was taken for granted and ignored. That is why I would be annoyed.

Well I prove it by the fact that they get annoyed.

I think you'll find it impossible to prove why I ro any other human feel certain emotions.

Brian Capture · 21-12-2007 12:16pm

Zulu wrote: »

...kinda dragging this OT, no?

so are you saying that such outrageous behaviour on the Tallaght services is justified?

dr_manhattan · 21-12-2007 12:31pm

I think that all this to-ing and fro-ing about whether someone has the right to be offended when he's not thanked etc clouds the issue.

That guy was obviously an asshole. IMHO, an asshole trying to make a point against someone he knew couldn't fight back. A bully. You can clothe him as some kind of victim of rudeness but to me... that doesn't wash.

I think we can be slow to condemn assholes because of some need to be fair to everyone. If I'd been there I'd have told him to sit down and stfu cos that's what i've done in the past.

And sure, we all wanna be fair but this analytical paralasis results in moral cowardice, and only one woman told the guy to shut up. He's allowed to imagine that he's possibly right because nobody calls him.

I think that's the point.

Zulu · 21-12-2007 1:03pm

Brian Capture wrote: »

so are you saying that such outrageous behaviour on the Tallaght services is justified?

No.

dr_manhattan wrote: »

That guy was obviously an asshole.

No one is disputing that. Have you read the thread from the start?

I think we can be slow to condemn assholes because of some need to be fair to everyone. If I'd been there I'd have told him to sit down and stfu cos that's what i've done in the past.

I get the impression you haven't read the full thread? Would I be right??

And sure, we all wanna be fair but this analytical paralasis results in moral cowardice, and only one woman told the guy to shut up. He's allowed to imagine that he's possibly right because nobody calls him.
I think that's the point.

That is a point, and it's fairly uncontested. Everyone agrees he was out of line.

Zombrex · 21-12-2007 1:05pm

Zulu wrote: »

Although, you were happy enough to use general terms to suggest that anyone who was offended was an "ignorant prick".

Certainly, because I can't see of a situation where that wouldn't apply.

If you have one I'm all ears.

Zulu wrote: »

I disagree. As a general rule of etiquette, one should always say thanks, or at least acknowledge the other person.

Yes but we have already established that there are times and circumstances where that doesn't apply. Therefore it is a moot point.

You cannot say that this woman was being rude because you haven't established the circumstances of the situation and you haven't established that what ever the circumstances it was automatically rude, because you agree that there are circumstances where not reply "thank you" to someone wouldn't be rude.

Zulu wrote: »

I was also say that it is rude to ignore another person.

It is except if the circumstances allow it. Therefore it isn't a general rule where one can say this woman was being rude no matter what.

Zulu wrote: »

Well there are exceptions, but I don't agree that this was one

How would you possibly know? Where you there?

Zulu wrote: »

Well I maintain that she was rude not to acknowledge him, the shopping/kid aren't an amnesty.

"Amnesty" ... seriously Zulu you seem to have a very peculiar way of viewing this

Zulu wrote: »

Excuse me??? Ah now Wicknight, This whole debate is based on your sweeping statement, that "anyone who gets annoyed because they don't get a thank you is just a selfish prick TBH". You'd be hard pushed to get anymore sweeping than that!!!

Again if you can think of an example where that doesn't apply I'm all ears.

Zulu wrote: »

To do that, I was trying to display to you that if we are rude to people they have a right to be upset. I gave you general examples to help you understand my point.

Yes but I'm not saying he is a self prick because this woman was rude to him, I'm saying he is a prick because he expected a thank you and got annoyed because he didn't get one.

The man himself doesn't know the circumstances of why the woman didn't say thank you to him any more than you do.

He is doing exactly what you are doing, assuming that she must being rude.

Zulu wrote: »

To acknowledge someone is.

It is, which is why someone not acknowledging someone is not the same as not letting a pregnant woman sit down.

Zulu wrote: »

Possibly, I wasn't there. But lets not discuss this extraordinary example. As I said, I'm talking in general.

But that is the whole point Zulu.

You are saying that this woman must have been being rude by default unless some how it is established that she has an extraordinary reason to not say thank you, a reason that we are never going to establish on this forum.

I disagree with that way of viewing this instance, or any other.

I would say that based on the limited information we have it should be assume that this woman wasn't being rude by both the man and you, unless we have a better reason to believe that she was being rude.

Zulu wrote: »

I would be annoyed that i was ignored, or that someone took me for granted.

Yes but you don't know if you were ignored or if you were taken for granted.

I wasn't ignoring the man on the METRO or taking him for granted. I was very thankful that he held the door open for me. I didn't say thank you to him.

Zulu wrote: »

Not true, I didn't do the act for the acknowledgement so thats all cool, however, in this hypothetical situation, I was taken for granted and ignored. That is why I would be annoyed.

But even if you were ignored the fact that that annoys you demonstrates that you want the recognition in the first place.

Zulu wrote: »

I think you'll find it impossible to prove why I ro any other human feel certain emotions.

Well you are telling me exactly what I already knew. You get annoyed if you do something that is not recognized by the person you do it for. That demonstrates to me that you are doing the thing in the first place for the recognition. Otherwise not getting this recognition wouldn't trouble you.

Morlar · 21-12-2007 1:12pm

dr_manhattan wrote: »

I think that all this to-ing and fro-ing about whether someone has the right to be offended when he's not thanked etc clouds the issue.

That is partly the issue - talking about it doesnt could it (acc the original post). Though having said that the thread did go a bit off topic there for a while.

dr_manhattan wrote: »

That guy was obviously an asshole. IMHO, an asshole trying to make a point against someone he knew couldn't fight back. A bully. You can clothe him as some kind of victim of rudeness but to me... that doesn't wash..

Who is 'clothing him as a victim of rudeness' exactly ?

Do you think its possible for 2 things to happen at the same time ?
ie
a)
He was out of order to overreact
b)
she should have acknowledged he gave her his seat (with a nod or a smile or a 'Thanks' or whatever).

You seem to think that only one of those 2 things can be true. Going by whats been talked about both are probably true.

dr_manhattan wrote: »

I think we can be slow to condemn assholes because of some need to be fair to everyone. If I'd been there I'd have told him to sit down and stfu cos that's what i've done in the past.

I think people who go around telling other people to stfu will come acrop sooner or later. imo. It doesnt matter if you have done it in the past or not. It is possible to be polite in a situation like that - or at least to start out politely. If you jump in telling somone to stfu you are likely to make the situation worse - backing aggresive over-reactive people into a corner isnt big or clever.

dr_manhattan wrote: »

And sure, we all wanna be fair but this analytical paralasis results in moral cowardice, and only one woman told the guy to shut up. He's allowed to imagine that he's possibly right because nobody calls him.

In the context of an internet discussion forum analysis is to be expected - - theres no moral cowardice in recognising not everything is simple black and white. Without reading back over the thread pretty sure that no one is saying that nothing should have been said to the guy.

dr_manhattan · 21-12-2007 1:22pm

yes i've read the entire thread: it's very repeditive and i think that you guys - who wrote it - aren't reading it and aren't realising how small the hairs you're splitting are:

"Do you think its possible for 2 things to happen at the same time ?
ie
a)
He was out of order to overreact
b)
she should have acknowledged he gave her his seat (with a nod or a smile or a 'Thanks' or whatever). "

(yawn) of course i do. He's still a great big asshole.
many things happened at once, so what? His childish idea that he was being insulted is petulant and ignorant. I don't care whether she thanked him or not, i open doors and stand aside for people all the time cos I WANT TO. I do not even listen to see if i'm thanked.

If i didn't want to i wouldn't do it. The guy was being AN ASSHOLE. Capisc?

And no, going around telling cowards and bullies to stfu is a risk free enterprise: none of these people will say a word in response because they are only abusing women in public because they are afraid to pick a real fight.

And if i do get beaten up by some pissant, then at least i'll have stood up for what i believe in, and not be sitting around in some interminable, pointless internal debate about "oh, well, she didn't thank him, so he has a right..."

Cut to the heart of the problem: he's an asshole and should be told it.

When people don't say please or thank you, you do not YELL at them, for god's sake think about it for five minutes and stop trying to be the european court of human rights.

people have to suffer public abuse every day from cowards abd bullies because we're all sitting around balancing spreadsheets in our heads. sad imho.

talking down to people . why ?

Comments