Belfast-Dublin Train border control?

tomlau

Strange (perhaps stupid) question.

A friend of mine from Manchester wants to visit Dublin for a holiday. Problem is, his girlfriend is from China and only has a visa to be in the UK. He was thinking about flying to Belfast and getting the train down and wanted to know if there is any passport control between the N.Ire and the Republic.

I wouldn't think so but I was hoping someone here could give me a better idea.

thanks in advance

highdef

No, no passport control. There is complete freedom between the two countries (not sure if they are technically two countries though). So nothing needed. Just hop on the train at Belfast, relax and have a few drinks or whatever and arrive at Dublin Connolly a few hours later

mikemac

I realise your question is about trains.
I do Belfast to Dublin regularly and use both the bus and trains.

The bus has been regularly stopped by the gardai who want to see ID from everyone at the border.
Now even if your friend has no ID but it's obvious that he is British then there's no problem.
But they do question everyone who is obviously not of a European background.
They could have been born in Europe but you know what I mean.

Once a Fillipino couple were travelling from Belfast to Dublin Airport to catch a flight. But they only had a UK permit and were taken off the bus. I've seen several people taken off the bus

But I've never seen any checks on the train.

Victor

You can be checked anywhere. Can she not apply for a tourist visa or a transit visa?

enterprise

Immigration can do spot checks on the train at Dundalk station also.

GerardKeating

highdef wrote: »

No, no passport control. There is complete freedom between the two countries (not sure if they are technically two countries though). So nothing needed. Just hop on the train at Belfast, relax and have a few drinks or whatever and arrive at Dublin Connolly a few hours later

Totally incorrect, the common passport area is only for IE/UK passport holders, all others require passports to cross the border.

Any non-EU national requires a visa to enter the country...

MrPudding

I have seen checks on normal buses, the Aircoach & the train.

MrP

Stark

What happens if you're Irish and you don't have any ID? Do they ask for your name and address or something, or do they just rely on the accent and pasty white complexion?

Victor

Stark wrote: »

What happens if you're Irish and you don't have any ID? Do they ask for your name and address or something, or do they just rely on the accent and pasty white complexion?

A friend got through Dublin Airport on "Howya".

ardmacha

Totally incorrect, the common passport area is only for IE/UK passport holders, all others require passports to cross the border.
Any non-EU national requires a visa to enter the country...

Also disinformation, some nationalities require a visa, some don't. And even for those they require a visa to enter the State, if they are in Belfast they are already in the country.

Victor

ardmacha wrote: »

Also disinformation, some nationalities require a visa, some don't. And even for those they require a visa to enter the State, if they are in Belfast they are already in the country.

As you know well, the State and the Country are two different things. Border controls are in place between Louth and Armagh (and elsewhere).

Bogger77

as you can see on the list here:
http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=8777

People from Mainland China(PRC) require a visa. By crossing the border via the land border with UK, your mate's GF risks deportation, and even arrest and then deportation.
Gardai have the power to stop and request her ID at any place within the state, even if she doesn't get stopped at the border, she would then be arrested and repatriated.

Checking : http://www.inis.gov.ie, looks like an application in person, probably in London or via post would be needed. That'll take time.

ardmacha

As you know well, the State and the Country are two different things.

I know this well, indeed, but this terminology is often mixed up.

With the discussion arose recently about e-borders and suchlike it is clear that the immigration arrangements for people with visa requirements travelling between the UK and Ireland needs to be looked at. It is altogether too difficult for a person with a permanent residence in one place to go to the other. Such people are unlikely to jeopardise their legal residence by getting into trouble in the other jurisdiction. I would have people with long term visas in the UK entitled to a 14 day visit to Ireland without further formality and vica-versa. The Schengen area is a powerful example of what can be done.

BrianD

I have witnessed spot checks on the Belfast-Dublin train... I wouldn't risk it.

Zoney

Surely if you declare that you are British or Irish, they cannot ask you for ID and just have to take your declaration at face value? Last I checked, Irish or British citizens don't have to carry ID in either jurisdiction, and the common travel area is still in existence.

Niall1234

Zoney wrote: »

Surely if you declare that you are British or Irish, they cannot ask you for ID and just have to take your declaration at face value? Last I checked, Irish or British citizens don't have to carry ID in either jurisdiction, and the common travel area is still in existence.

This indeed is a very odd ruling.

I mean Irish/British citizens don't have to carry ID as long as they can prove they are Irish/British citizens. How can you do that without an ID.

Similar to the Irish licencing laws. Anyone under 21 has to produce ID to buy drink. Anyone over 21 doesn't have to. But how are you supposed to prove you're over 21 if you don't carry an ID with you.

John R

Zoney wrote: »

Surely if you declare that you are British or Irish, they cannot ask you for ID and just have to take your declaration at face value? Last I checked, Irish or British citizens don't have to carry ID in either jurisdiction, and the common travel area is still in existence.

There is no legal requirement to carry ID in Ireland or the UK and Iish and UK citizens are allowed ID free travel between the two however the obligation is on the individual to prove they are Irish or British and entitled to avail of the ID free travel. Bit of a catch 22 really.

If an Immigration official suspects that you are not Irish or British they have every right to ask for proof and to hold you or refuse access until proof can be given.

Stark

Niall1234 wrote: »

Similar to the Irish licencing laws. Anyone under 21 has to produce ID to buy drink. Anyone over 21 doesn't have to. But how are you supposed to prove you're over 21 if you don't carry an ID with you.

I think the case there is that if a publican accidentally served drink to a 17 year old who looked like he was in his 20s, the publican could use that as a defence, but "he looked 19" wouldn't work.

eth0_

highdef wrote: »

No, no passport control. There is complete freedom between the two countries (not sure if they are technically two countries though). So nothing needed. Just hop on the train at Belfast, relax and have a few drinks or whatever and arrive at Dublin Connolly a few hours later

NOT TRUE! I've been on the bus and train from Belfast to Dublin and vice versa and had customs officers and the gardai get on checking identification papers/passports.

This guys girlfriend could have been deported from Ireland if he had heeded your advice!

eth0_

Zoney wrote: »

Surely if you declare that you are British or Irish, they cannot ask you for ID and just have to take your declaration at face value? Last I checked, Irish or British citizens don't have to carry ID in either jurisdiction, and the common travel area is still in existence.

We aren't required to carry ID, but on the occasions I have been on public transport that has been stopped by customs and immigration, they asked me for ID as a matter of course.

Bogger77

eth0_ wrote: »

We aren't required to carry ID, but on the occasions I have been on public transport that has been stopped by customs and immigration, they asked me for ID as a matter of course.

I find speaking, in Irish, is good enough to pass that check. I useta live in Dundalk, and have been checked on bus and car, and Train crossing the border.

BendiBus

I've seen people taken off the train at Dundalk by immigration.

I've also been checked as follows:

Immigration guy: "Irish?"
Me "Yeah!"
Immigration guy "OK."

John R

Bogger77 wrote: »

I find speaking, in Irish, is good enough to pass that check. I useta live in Dundalk, and have been checked on bus and car, and Train crossing the border.

Having an Irish/British accent will usually do, there are so many obvious non-nationals on most cross-border buses and trains now that they can be kept busy for hours without any recourse to detaining people that are probably legal.

The same goes for the sea ports. Unlike Airlines the ferry companies do not demand ID so you can get across without any ID. In both countries it is easy to get through immigration without any documentation.

On the Irish side the standard procedure is an immigration officer asking people what nationality they are. If you look likely to be Irish and can mumble "Irish" in a convincing accent you can walk past them without even slowing down.

Carawaystick

search for the racist goings on by gardai in the airports in Belfast

Operation Gull It's called.

mikemac

Carawaystick wrote: »

search for the racist goings on by gardai in the airports in Belfast

Operation Gull It's called.

I've googled this and the first two searches have:

-- Operation Gull is investigating use of the common travel area between Ireland, Britain and the British province of Northern Ireland for illegal immigration and criminality.

A major cross-Border investigation between Irish and British authorities has uncovered widespread social welfare fraud by asylum seekers and other foreign nationals may have cost the State tens of millions of euro, The Irish Times has learned. Conor Lally reports.

Sources close to the investigation, called Operation Gull, said they have been "staggered" by the level and nature of abuses being detected.

What's your problem Carawaystick?
If you've done nothing wrong "racist goings on by gardai" don't affect you

BanzaiBk

Both times I got the Belfast-Dublin train immigration boarded at Dundalk station. At the time I had an old French passport and they were quite nonchalant about the whole thing.

Immigration : You Irish?
Me : No, French
Immigration : Hahaha! Cork people ah? :rolleyes:
Me :


Damn corky accent:D

mikemac

BanzaiBk wrote: »

Damn corky accent:D

A pity they wouldn't deport the Cork people too

1huge1

Victor wrote: »

A friend got through Dublin Airport on "Howya".

Couldn't help but laugh out loud there

Blackjack

Technically if you are Irish or British there is a common travel area, but you are required to produce ID if required.
Oddly, this can be as little as work ID or a Bus pass. I've travelled from the UK to Dublin Airport, and did get past with my bus pass, but was quized for a bit, had a copy of my Birth cert for good measure.
If the girlfriend has a UK Visa, there is a possibility of getting through if you prove a return journey, probably best to have proof of address and work in the UK to be on the safe side. A letter from her employer should be sufficient, if she can say it's a work visit.

ian_m

Zoney wrote: »

Surely if you declare that you are British or Irish, they cannot ask you for ID and just have to take your declaration at face value? Last I checked, Irish or British citizens don't have to carry ID in either jurisdiction, and the common travel area is still in existence.

You can be detained if you have not satisfied immigration officials with the information you have provided.

ian_m

If your friends girlfreind does not have a visa for the Republic of Ireland then she is not legaly entiteld to cross the border into the Republic. If she is caught in the Republic she faces the risk of her privileges in the UK to be revoked.

This matter will be questioned on all further visa applications made to any country in the future resulting in greater chance of refusal of a visa, let alone entry.

Train, plane, bus or car, I wouldn't risk it.

BendiBus

If the girlfriend has a work visa for the UK, shouldn't it be easy enough for her to get a tourist visa for Ireland? Give the Irish Embassy in London a call.

eth0_

BendiBus wrote: »

If the girlfriend has a work visa for the UK, shouldn't it be easy enough for her to get a tourist visa for Ireland? Give the Irish Embassy in London a call.

No, it doesn't even enter into the equation. My manager has a work visa for Ireland (he is Indian) and he wanted to go see a cricket match in Belfast and he was denied a UK visa!

Bogger77

Carawaystick wrote: »

search for the racist goings on by gardai in the airports in Belfast

Operation Gull It's called.

We have gardai stationed on foreign soil?
Thought we only sent the boys in blue out as part of UN forces.

Bogger77

http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D96CECBD-5E71-42A4-8426-26218294195D/0/j_j_GIRC5368.htm

If you read this full judicial review of 3 cases, you'll see how and operation gull works. I can't see how it's racist, in the above, 2 appeals succeded against the UK immigration officials, and 1 was refused, ie that person was found to have entered the UK with the sole purpose of entering the Irish Republic illegally.
The 2 who succeded in appealing, were found to have lied about purpose, but there wasn't enough evidence of the actual answers given on the UK visa questionaires, so they won on a technicallity.

Tabnabs

I have seen Immigration doing spot checks on the train from Belfast too, the guy was wearing a long black leather jacket and was just short of saying "Ausweis, Bitte!" They took a couple off the train too.

Carawaystick

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/belfast-airport-news-291007.htm

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3107360.ece

false imprisonment carries a sentence of up to life.

Bogger77

Bogger77 wrote: »

We have gardai stationed on foreign soil?
Thought we only sent the boys in blue out as part of UN forces.

Part of the gfa I think.

fricatus

Dyflin wrote: »

...and was just short of saying "Ausweis, Bitte!".

LOL

eth0_

Dyflin wrote: »

I have seen Immigration doing spot checks on the train from Belfast too, the guy was wearing a long black leather jacket and was just short of saying "Ausweis, Bitte!" They took a couple off the train too.

Meh, I don't care what they look like if they're keeping parasitic illegal immigrants out of Ireland.

Stark

Racist

ardmacha

Meh, I don't care what they look like if they're keeping parasitic illegal immigrants out of Ireland.

The present arrangements mostly keep badly prepared naive travellers out of the State, without really doing anything about the parasitic immigrants.

Bogger77

Carawaystick wrote: »

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/belfast-airport-news-291007.htm

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3107360.ece

false imprisonment carries a sentence of up to life.

So does murder, but did Micheal Stone, Patrick Magee or Torrens Knight serve the full term.

Since a large percentage of people coming to the Irish republic illegally are doing so, through NI, with the UK authorities then having to pay for repartiation costs etc, they clamped down. The vast majority of people coming via NI, were of African origin, so percentage Black people vs, white or Aisian in Africa, in partic former UK colonies means that most people, who are illegally crossing will be "Black". It's not racist to target people of Africian descent, when stat's show that that group of people are most likely to be crossing the border illegally.

It's the UK Immigration services responsibilty, under the CAT scheme to ensure that people with right only to remain in UK do not abuse their visa.

ArphaRima

I think the best route would be to personally go to the Visa office and make a plea. If you seem like a decent chap, and your gf is too (also helps if you lived in China too), then they might help. I was asking about my Vietnamese gf last year and everyone was happy to help. Might take some time to organise mind you.

Based on what I'm hearing here I wouldnt risk it. But if I was to, I'd rent a car and go south.
Just remember that if she is caught it will affect any further visa applications very negatively.

Polar101

I'm bit shocked to hear of border control, went Dublin to Belfast and back without a passport some time ago, and I'm not Irish (good honest EU citizen, though). Guess I'd better bring the passport along next time.

Victor

Polar101 wrote: »

I'm bit shocked to hear of border control, went Dublin to Belfast and back without a passport some time ago, and I'm not Irish (good honest EU citizen, though). Guess I'd better bring the passport along next time.

The chances of getting checked are much lower than say at an airport, but the consequences can be just as serious. If you are an EU citizen, some sort of official ID, say a national ID card would possibly be accepted.

ardmacha

a national ID card would possibly be accepted.

A national ID card would have to be accepted, just as it would at passport control. However there is no obligation to carry such a document in either North or South, and I am not sure to what extent an EU citizen is obliged to give information on how they got there. The whole thing is unclear.

Carawaystick

Bogger77 wrote: »

So does murder, but did Micheal Stone, Patrick Magee or Torrens Knight serve the full term.

Since a large percentage of people coming to the Irish republic illegally are doing so, through NI, with the UK authorities then having to pay for repartiation costs etc, they clamped down. The vast majority of people coming via NI, were of African origin, so percentage Black people vs, white or Aisian in Africa, in partic former UK colonies means that most people, who are illegally crossing will be "Black". It's not racist to target people of Africian descent, when stat's show that that group of people are most likely to be crossing the border illegally.

It's the UK Immigration services responsibilty, under the CAT scheme to ensure that people with right only to remain in UK do not abuse their visa.

Surely any immigration issue would occur at the border?
Why would there be any need for immigration for a person legally resident in the united kingdom of great britain and norn iron moving between two parts of the same kingdom? It'd be like having to do the same getting off a flight from Inis Oirr to Inverin in Galway.

did those 3 killers kill while on duty working for the uk immigration service in close liason with the Gardai?

Suff

I'm looking to travel to Belfast in June to see a concert, I'm not EU, I hold a work visa...do I need to apply for a UK visa to enter Belfast by train or car?

Yes you do, Irish work visa not valid in the UK (imho)

L1011

Serious question - how are any authorities going to check your status if you don't carry ID - considering Irish and British citizens are not required to carry any. You could just state you're an Irish citizen...

Only when I'm driving across the border would I have any ID on me - namely my driving licence shoved in the map holder of the car. Never by train/bus. The fact that theres bus routes that start and terminate in the Republic but pass through NI also causes issues - Letterkenny to Dublin BE route for instance.